Will Eddie Get the Shaft...

Banks2Pierce · Post #1 » by **Banks2Pierce** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:02 pm

...again?

I made this thread because I tried to come up with a rotation and it's hard to pin it down. Last year, Eddie House played pretty well during the regular season and then got his minutes squeezed when Cassell got here. He barely played in the playoffs.

Doc will likely play Paul and Ray at least 38 minutes a game for the playoffs. Marbury will obviously get most of the time at the backup point. Is Eddie going to see his minutes go to 8 or fewer? It might come down to a question of Tony Allen vs. Eddie House for minutes. The only possible backups for Pierce are Tony Allen, and weirdly enough, Ray Allen. I don't see how Eddie will get any time at all if we get to the ECF's. Tony Allen is the only other option to guard Lebron. We know Billy's gonna be glued to that 12th bench position.

House has been playing a lot lately because Doc has made a conscious effort to get Ray and Paul more rest. This will not be the case here. It might come down to a question of : what does the game need? If the c's need D, then it will be TA. IF it is O, then it is Eddie. It would be weird to see Tony Allen just not play in the first 2 series, and then getting 15 minutes to help on Lebron.

What a rambling post with no real conclusion. I guess we'll find out more tomorrow.

campybatman · Post #2 » by **campybatman** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:06 pm

Don't you mean Tony? Why would House get a reduction in minutes? He's playing well with Marbury right now.

Banks2Pierce · Post #3 » by **Banks2Pierce** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:09 pm

Yea , bonsai, the more and more I thought about it, the more I realized TA is likely to lose the minutes in the first series. The reason for that is that Chicago has a few combo guards in Gordon and Hinrich. You will have more trouble sticking Eddie on Pietrus or Courtney Lee, though.

BRUNiNHO91 · Post #4 » by **BRUNiNHO91** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:12 pm

Marbury backs up Rondo..Eddie backs up Ray..TA backs up Pierce..yet we will more than likely have PP or Ray in there at all times..never both on the bench..so I don't know...hopefully Eddie gets more minutes, we need his shooting...

Banks2Pierce · Post #5 » by **Banks2Pierce** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:17 pm

Depends on where Doc wants to go with it, but you generally don't have a 10 man rotation for the playoffs.

1: Rondo, Marbs
2: Ray, House, Marbs
3: Pierce, Ray
4: Powe/Davis
5: Perk/Moore

I think that the goal is to get Scal into the starting lineup by the second series. Strangely enough, the starters looked the best with Scal in KG's place over Powe or Davis. Scal looks better with the starters. His weaknesses are too glaring with the backups.

I'm curious what happens to the big rotation if Scal comes back looking good.

MyInsatiableOne · Post #6 » by **MyInsatiableOne** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:18 pm

bonsaiflipflops wrote:Don't you mean Tony? Why would House get a reduction in minutes? He's playing well with Marbury right now.

Not only that, there is no Cassell blackmailing Doc into giving him loads of PT like there was last year!

campybatman · Post #7 » by **campybatman** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:23 pm

Well, Rivers always talks about playing the match-ups. So, just because you see little of one player in this round. His role could increase in the next round.

Sometimes, I dislike that some of the players on the team are short. Imagine if Davis, Powe or Tony were a lot taller than they actually are. Imagine the freedom you've among the coaching staff on defense.

Rocky5000 · Post #8 » by **Rocky5000** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:26 pm

I don't think anyone is going to see their minutes drop that much to be honest. With KG out, we'll probably see the team go small more often than they have been because we have very good bench players in the backcourt, but a below average front court bench with Mikki and Leon or Baby.

MyInsatiableOne · Post #9 » by **MyInsatiableOne** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:27 pm

bonsaiflipflops wrote:Well, Rivers always talks about playing the match-ups. So, just because you see little of one player in this round. His role could increase in the next round.

Sometimes, I dislike that some of the players on the team are short. Imagine if Davis, Powe or Tony were a lot taller than they actually are. Imagine the freedom you've among the coaching staff on defense.

If those three were taller, they'd be much better...and probably on other teams as they wouldn't have fallen as far in the draft!

greenbeans · Post #10 » by **greenbeans** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:47 pm

I for some strange reason think Doc will play Paul at pf some this series. We all know he loves to go small and that's the only real choice he has to do it. So I think Eddie will continue getting minutes until we get to a CLE or ORL.
Rondo
Steph
Ray
Pierce
Powe
for 10 minutes could get ya some points, especially if Chicago is going with Noah/Thomas compared to Miller/whatever

threrf23 · Post #11 » by **threrf23** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:55 pm

The issue with Eddie where we have decided he fits best at SG is an issue we knew of when he was signed.

That said, against the Bulls, who boast a three-man rotation in their backcourt of Rose/Gordon/Hinrich, his size won't be a problem.

Against the Magic, either he or Stephon may end up needing the shaft to an extent. The Magic aren't overly strong @ SG, but they have guys like Pietrus and Lee that can shoot over Eddie all day.

Against the Cavs, Eddie can match up against Booby nicely enough and Stephon can play when Eddie is cold or when Mo Williams is @ SG.

MaxwellSmart · Post #12 » by **MaxwellSmart** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:09 am

I think Doc learned his lesson last year---Don't mess with the Rotation-!!....it ALMOST cost us a Championship---He went back to the regular rotation midway through the Cavs series.

Banks2Pierce · Post #13 » by **Banks2Pierce** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:21 pm

Eddie has sucked so far. Well, everyone on the bench has, but we have Eddie passing up wide open shots. We can't have him doing that. If Eddie comes out cold again, we need to give his minutes to TA and Steph.

Rocky5000 · Post #14 » by **Rocky5000** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:41 pm

^Yep. Eddie is only good when he's being aggressive on offense and hitting his shots. If he's holding back, or shooting bricks, there's no reason to have him out there. His missed 3s result in longer rebounds, which gives the other team an opportunity to run, and not one of Marbury, Eddie, Powe, or Mikki are fast players, so the bench will consistently get beat down the court resulting in 3 on 2s or 2 on 1s.

armageddon · Post #15 » by **armageddon** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:13 pm

House usually leaves his balls in the locker room when games get important. Eddie has the green light to shoot every chance he gets and is encouraged to fire away relentlessly yet come playoffs or clutch he wimps out. Sure he has an occasional great moment. If he doesn't shoot, he's worthless. He's supposed to be our Gordon.

ryaningf · Post #16 » by **ryaningf** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:17 pm

Bottom line: Eddie's an easy guard, provided you game plan him. During the regular season, teams don't have the prep time, nor sometimes the wherewithal to prep for a one-dimensional bomber who comes off the bench. In the playoffs, it's a different story. What we've seen so far is that Bulls have successfully game planned Eddie House. They're staying with him on the perimeter and in transition. Additionally, all their guards are 6'3" or taller, and that added length has caused Eddie to hesitate with his shot.

Eddie has impressed me somewhat with his hustle and spirit...he had a nice hard foul on Gordon, and he has scrapped for some loose balls and rebounds, so it's not like he's terrible out there. But with Powe being out and us having severe size problems in this series, I don't think we can afford to run out a one-dimensional 6 foot shooting guard anymore, especially when the Bulls have taken his one dimension away.

The one guy who's getting the shaft is TA. You'd think that in a series where we give up 105 and 115 points in consecutive games, in a series where two 6'3" guards go off for 36 and 42 points in two games, in a series where we can't get back in transition, we'd play our best perimeter defender. But no. Doc preaches defense, but doesn't play his best perimeter defender. It's been a huge mistake.

TA matches up extremely well against Gordon. In Game 1, when Gordon started to get hot, TA came in and denied him the ball and basically shut him down. We have no other player with the ability to shut down Gordon. In game 2, TA would have been a great option down the stretch in an offense/defense situation...the last 2 Gordon jumpers were preceeded and followed by timeouts, so Doc easily could have subbed TA in in those instances to give Gordon a different look...the only problem was, TA hadn't played in the first half and Doc was afraid to go to him. In fact, after Gordon had started to get it going in the first quarter, Doc's first sub was Marbury for Ray, another stupid move. Marbury struggles at the 2-guard spot (because he has no confidence in his jumper) and did nothing the rest of the game. Marbury should come in to the point guard position right away. Asking him to come in and stand in the corner is stupidity, and just gets Marbury questioning himself.

I'm pretty sure the Bulls have not game planned TA to the extent House has been game planned. TA was injured for most of the 2nd half of the season, so there's little video on him. Plus, he's been out of the rotation. So, not only will playing TA improve our defense (which is our #1 problem right now), he'll also likely get free on the offensive end and surprise the Bulls who haven't prepared for him. Playing TA is a complete no-brainer at this point.

Red2 · Post #17 » by **Red2** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:28 pm

eddie and marbury haven;'t established themselves yet in this series. thursday night would be a good time for them to get going

GreenDreamer · Post #18 » by **GreenDreamer** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:30 pm

ryaningf wrote:Bottom line: Eddie's an easy guard, provided you game plan him. During the regular season, teams don't have the prep time, nor sometimes the wherewithal to prep for a one-dimensional bomber who comes off the bench. In the playoffs, it's a different story. What we've seen so far is that Bulls have successfully game planned Eddie House. They're staying with him on the perimeter and in transition. Additionally, all their guards are 6'3" or taller, and that added length has caused Eddie to hesitate with his shot.

Eddie has impressed me somewhat with his hustle and spirit...he had a nice hard foul on Gordon, and he has scrapped for some loose balls and rebounds, so it's not like he's terrible out there. But with Powe being out and us having severe size problems in this series, I don't think we can afford to run out a one-dimensional 6 foot shooting guard anymore, especially when the Bulls have taken his one dimension away.

The one guy who's getting the shaft is TA. You'd think that in a series where we give up 105 and 115 points in consecutive games, in a series where two 6'3" guards go off for 36 and 42 points in two games, in a series where we can't get back in transition, we'd play our best perimeter defender. But no. Doc preaches defense, but doesn't play his best perimeter defender. It's been a huge mistake.

TA matches up extremely well against Gordon. In Game 1, when Gordon started to get hot, TA came in and denied him the ball and basically shut him down. We have no other player with the ability to shut down Gordon. In game 2, TA would have been a great option down the stretch in an offense/defense situation...the last 2 Gordon jumpers were preceeded and followed by timeouts, so Doc easily could have subbed TA in in those instances to give Gordon a different look...the only problem was, TA hadn't played in the first half and Doc was afraid to go to him. In fact, after Gordon had started to get it going in the first quarter, Doc's first sub was Marbury for Ray, another stupid move. Marbury struggles at the 2-guard spot (because he has no confidence in his jumper) and did nothing the rest of the game. Marbury should come in to the point guard position right away. Asking him to come in and stand in the corner is stupidity, and just gets Marbury questioning himself.

I'm pretty sure the Bulls have not game planned TA to the extent House has been game planned. TA was injured for most of the 2nd half of the season, so there's little video on him. Plus, he's been out of the rotation. So, not only will playing TA improve our defense (which is our #1 problem right now), he'll also likely get free on the offensive end and surprise the Bulls who haven't prepared for him. Playing TA is a complete no-brainer at this point.

The problem is, Ryan, that Doc is going to find it very hard to get Steph minutes if the only ones he gets are behind Rondo. It is bcoming very obvious that taking Rondo out is like an open invitation for the Bulls to attack us.

Personally, I don't think that Tony's game meshes well with Rondo, nor does it mesh with Steph's. Tony doesn't have a jumper, and to play at the SHOOTING guard spot, it is pretty important to have that down. That is really on him in the end. It is the number one thing which keeps him off of the court (apart from his health issues). Tony's lack of shooting has reduced Doc to a simple choice of "Rondo or Tony". Seriously, who do you think is winner there? If that wasn't bad enough, Tony has the tendency to play stupid basketball. Really inexcusable turnovers and fouls. The stuff that haunts you in tight playoff games.

With regards to Eddie, I'm seriously disappointed in him. He is flat out turning down open shots. He is also not shooting the ball quickly, as is the norm for him. He got blocked last night on a three because he didn't get the ball off, even though no one initially near him. He started his shooting motion, stopped, reset his feet, and started again, and got swatted. That isn't Eddie. When he is right that ball barely touches his hand before he gets it off. He is also not making many of his usual "hustle/energuy" plays. he has had a few, but he looks flat footed most of the time. He needs to just stop worrying and shoot the damn ball.

ryaningf · Post #19 » by **ryaningf** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:59 pm

GreenDreamer wrote:
ryaningf wrote:Bottom line: Eddie's an easy guard, provided you game plan him. During the regular season, teams don't have the prep time, nor sometimes the wherewithal to prep for a one-dimensional bomber who comes off the bench. In the playoffs, it's a different story. What we've seen so far is that Bulls have successfully game planned Eddie House. They're staying with him on the perimeter and in transition. Additionally, all their guards are 6'3" or taller, and that added length has caused Eddie to hesitate with his shot.

Eddie has impressed me somewhat with his hustle and spirit...he had a nice hard foul on Gordon, and he has scrapped for some loose balls and rebounds, so it's not like he's terrible out there. But with Powe being out and us having severe size problems in this series, I don't think we can afford to run out a one-dimensional 6 foot shooting guard anymore, especially when the Bulls have taken his one dimension away.

The one guy who's getting the shaft is TA. You'd think that in a series where we give up 105 and 115 points in consecutive games, in a series where two 6'3" guards go off for 36 and 42 points in two games, in a series where we can't get back in transition, we'd play our best perimeter defender. But no. Doc preaches defense, but doesn't play his best perimeter defender. It's been a huge mistake.

TA matches up extremely well against Gordon. In Game 1, when Gordon started to get hot, TA came in and denied him the ball and basically shut him down. We have no other player with the ability to shut down Gordon. In game 2, TA would have been a great option down the stretch in an offense/defense situation...the last 2 Gordon jumpers were preceeded and followed by timeouts, so Doc easily could have subbed TA in in those instances to give Gordon a different look...the only problem was, TA hadn't played in the first half and Doc was afraid to go to him. In fact, after Gordon had started to get it going in the first quarter, Doc's first sub was Marbury for Ray, another stupid move. Marbury struggles at the 2-guard spot (because he has no confidence in his jumper) and did nothing the rest of the game. Marbury should come in to the point guard position right away. Asking him to come in and stand in the corner is stupidity, and just gets Marbury questioning himself.

I'm pretty sure the Bulls have not game planned TA to the extent House has been game planned. TA was injured for most of the 2nd half of the season, so there's little video on him. Plus, he's been out of the rotation. So, not only will playing TA improve our defense (which is our #1 problem right now), he'll also likely get free on the offensive end and surprise the Bulls who haven't prepared for him. Playing TA is a complete no-brainer at this point.

The problem is, Ryan, that Doc is going to find it very hard to get Steph minutes if the only ones he gets are behind Rondo. It is bcoming very obvious that taking Rondo out is like an open invitation for the Bulls to attack us.

Personally, I don't think that Tony's game meshes well with Rondo, nor does it mesh with Steph's. Tony doesn't have a jumper, and to play at the SHOOTING guard spot, it is pretty important to have that down. That is really on him in the end. It is the number one thing which keeps him off of the court (apart from his health issues). Tony's lack of shooting has reduced Doc to a simple choice of "Rondo or Tony". Seriously, who do you think is winner there? If that wasn't bad enough, Tony has the tendency to play stupid basketball. Really inexcusable turnovers and fouls. The stuff that haunts you in tight playoff games.

With regards to Eddie, I'm seriously disappointed in him. He is flat out turning down open shots. He is also not shooting the ball quickly, as is the norm for him. He got blocked last night on a three because he didn't get the ball off, even though no one initially near him. He started his shooting motion, stopped, reset his feet, and started again, and got swatted. That isn't Eddie. When he is right that ball barely touches his hand before he gets it off. He is also not making many of his usual "hustle/energuy" plays. he has had a few, but he looks flat footed most of the time. He needs to just stop worrying and shoot the damn ball.

Good thoughts, Dreamer. In short stretches, TA can play effectively with Rondo or Marbury. It comes down to game planning. If the Bulls haven't game planned for TA, he'll be fine. If they lay off him and force him to shoot jumpers, well, that might be a different story. Even then, his lack of shooting only hurts you in the half-court; put this team in transition, and Rondo/Marbury often find TA for easy looks.

TA's jumper looked good the last 2 games of the regular season. He even hit some threes and looked pretty fluid in his shooting motion (his form has looked bad this year on the jumper, but has improved since he's comeback from his latest injury). It's really not about the jumper going in, it's about taking the jumper when it presents itself in the flow of the offense. TA's been better at that since he came back too.

As for stupid mistakes and TA's propensity to make them, I'd counter that that happened because he was being asked to play a defacto point guard role because Eddie House can't...Doc asked too much of Tony, and that caused TA to play outside of himself...put him with a good point guard, and ask him to just do 2-dribble drives and defend and he'd be fine...put him with Eddie House and he does too much. The stupid mistake part of TA's game has been overrated by everyone...it's a product of how he's used and who he plays with more than a product of his game. He shouldn't be asked to be the main creater on the floor, yet for the last 2 seasons that's usually been his role...

All those thoughts aside, it's not about offense, it's about defense! We're scoring just fine. The problem is, we can't stop the Bulls on the perimeter. In low-scoring games, we have a better chance of winning. If we get into high-scoring games, that favors the Bulls. So, if it's a question between whether we go with Eddie House and his ability to space the defense and possibly hit some shots, versus TA and his ability to get easy buckets, penetrate and create, or get to the line while playing some lockdown defense on Rose/Gordon/Salmons...well, I'd go with defense every time. Defense wins championships!

As for Eddie, well, I said it before. He's an easy guard. He does one thing. All you have to do is take away that one thing and he's ineffective. TA does more than one thing and since he's hasn't played this series or much in the 2nd half of the year, I think that makes him harder to defend, especially the first time he gets some minutes. He's a freaking secret weapon in the hands of a coach who knows how to use him...unfortunately, I don't think Doc is that coach.

humblebum · Post #20 » by **humblebum** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:05 pm

I don't think it's really that hard to understand. The team needs to defend better on the perimeter. Ray and Eddie have been getting torched consistently. Plus Rose and the Bulls have been dismantling the Celtics defense either in transition or with the high pick-pop-roll-slip play. Use Tony in spurts on Gordon/Salmons, if his offense is decent play him more minutes if not he'll make a positive contribution defensively, on the boards, and with his toughness. Basketball isn't rocket science. The Celtics need more toughness off the bench right now... House, Marbury, Moore are all playing soft, soft basketball notwithstanding Eddie's hard foul on Gordon. Doc needs to insert some toughness and energy off the bench... that's the missing value of Posey and PJ. Physical play. Tony Allen can bring that to the team.