Rondo Foul (By the Points)

spf211 · Post #1 » by **spf211** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:22 am

The Rondo foul debate remains contentious for one reason --

Chicago's argument that the Brad Miller foul was an F1 can imply, by default, that the Bulls were robbed of a victory.

Here it is, point by point, based on what we know --

Bulls 104 - Celtics 106

Rondo F1 foul on Brad Miller
2 Shots + Posession

Brad Miller misses first free throw attempt

2.0 remains on game clock

Now the rest is speculation, best case scenario (Chicago) --

Brad Miller makes second free throw attempt

Bulls 105 - Celtics 106

Bulls inbound for quick shot

Ben Gordon jumper for 2 (or 3)

Bulls 107/108 - Celtics 106

Or speculation on worst case scenario (Chicago) --

Brad Miller misses second free throw attempt

Bulls 104 - Celtics 106

Bulls inbound for quick shot

Jumper missed.

--

Bottom line? We do know Del Negro was not substituting for Brad Miller (flagrant call or not) on the free throws and (flagrant call or not) Brad Miller would, at best, convert 1 of 2 free throws -- still requiring a quick jumpshot -- the same type of inbounds play the Celtics had stopped on the previous possession.

BRUNiNHO91 · Post #2 » by **BRUNiNHO91** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:00 pm

They lose regardless...Gordon can't score on Tony Allen..he sure as hell can't do it in 2 seconds..nope..nope

TheBurbs · Post #3 » by **TheBurbs** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:30 pm

BRUNiNHO91 wrote:They lose regardless...Gordon can't score on Tony Allen..he sure as hell can't do it in 2 seconds..nope..nope

That's some fantastic work. This entire series has been void of last second heroics so why wouldn't that continue. :roll:

spf211 wrote:Bottom line? We do know Del Negro was not substituting for Brad Miller (flagrant call or not) on the free throws and (flagrant call or not) Brad Miller would, at best, convert 1 of 2 free throws -- still requiring a quick jumpshot -- the same type of inbounds play the Celtics had stopped on the previous possession.

If by stop you mean letting Brad Miller take a stroll down an empty lane only to be stoped by what the vast majority of people would consider a FF1 and in the process allowing him to attempt 2 FT's that could tie up the game I guess you are correct. As it turnes out it was good for the Celtics in the end but by no means was a smart play on his part.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here but some of this crap I have read over the last couple of days is amazing.

Post #4 » by **ParticleMan** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:15 pm

Some of the stuff the Bulls fans are saying is amazing.

They act like the series hasn't been extremely physical. They act like Chicago hasn't gotten away with murder against Pierce, while somehow touch fouls end up giving Rose and Gordon FTs in the final minutes. So don't come and suddenly start whining about not getting a call. It may or may not have been a FF1 (the NBA says no, but whatever). The fact is it's been extremely physical, and the Bulls have gotten away with a LOT. Suddenly when the tables are turned it's all "waah" and "we're sending a tape to the league". STFU and deal with it, like the C's have the whole series.

TheBurbs · Post #5 » by **TheBurbs** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:39 pm

I won't argue any of your points because I can't. This has been a very physical series but the Bulls issue is that the C's can out physical us at just about every position. That's not your problem that's the Bulls problem. In time that should be corrected but it's a tall hurdle at this point and time for them.

I'm just having issues with some things people are saying here. Miller split his lip on an elbow or Ben was out of bounds on that three. It's like you guys are watching a different game or something. In no way shape or form can you be as sure as you seem to be if you were watching that TNT feed that either of those things are true. It's like one guy brings it up and everybody else thinks it's a fact.

Anyway the game tonight should be fun, good luck to your guys and I hope nobody gets hurt.

spf211 · Post #6 » by **spf211** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:45 pm

The only reason we're talking about this foul is because it happened with three seconds to go. If Bull fans want to cite this as a bad call and go into hypotheticals on how Chicago would have won, then they have to go back and look at the last two (bogus) personal fouls on Ray Allen.

If Miller & Gordon can theorhetically allow the Bulls to win by, at most, two points then Ray Allen's presence in the game for the final five minutes theorhetically allows Boston to score at least two, if not more, additional points and the Celtics win in regulation.

The point is if Chicago wants to game to be called "fair" throughout the entire contest they have to admit their share of beneficial calls.

In any realistic scenario, Boston still wins Game 5. Unless we're only looking at the calls that didn't favor the Bulls -- and that doesn't seem fair, does it?

TheBurbs · Post #7 » by **TheBurbs** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:27 pm

Sorry I guess I ended up getting a bit off topic here. My posts are not really about the foul. It's been done to death and I guess I am a little tired of talking or reading about it. I am wondering about the other comments in this and other threads though.

Yes both teams have had good and bad called against them. The refs allowing this series to get so physical is an advantage to the C's for 2 huge reasons in the middle. Perkins not getting a foul called on him while recording 7 blocks is a good way to show you that advantage. Him fouling out the other game was a nice advantage for the Bulls. It goes both ways but the C's have had a large advantage with this through the series.

My point directed at you spf was that you stated the C's had been able to stop the last inbounds play and that really wasn't the case. It was horrible D with a game saving swipe from Rondo that saved the day. Thinking that the Bulls would have had no shot with only 2 left on the clock isn't very accurate after the play before just the Bulls a great look going to the hoop.

Like I said beofore I'm not here to argue. I am honestly wondering if you had local coverage that showed different camera views on the 3 pointer and Miller hitting an elbow on the way down. From what I and everybody else saw on TNT it wasn't nearly as clear as some have been saying from your fan base.

SonicYouth34 · Post #8 » by **SonicYouth34** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:34 pm

It doesn't really matter, what's done is done.Also, if that foul on MIller was a flagrant, then when MIller and Hinrich threw Perk to the ground should be as well.

TheBurbs · Post #9 » by **TheBurbs** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:05 pm

SonicYouth34 wrote:It doesn't really matter, what's done is done.Also, if that foul on MIller was a flagrant, then when MIller and Hinrich threw Perk to the ground should be as well.

If Rondo pulled Miller down by the shoulders instead of hitting him in the face not only would the end of the game have been a non issue but I am willing to put large sums of money that Bulls fans would even say it was a heads up play by Rondo.

This is the exact type of comment I have been seeing that makes me wonder what game you were watching. I have asked a few times today for somebody to fill me in on what other broadcast you were watching but nobody will bother answering. It's starting to make me think that one person makes a shaky argument over here and everybody just follows along.

Celtic Esquire · Post #10 » by **Celtic Esquire** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:17 pm

spf211 wrote:
Bottom line? We do know Del Negro was not substituting for Brad Miller (flagrant call or not) on the free throws and (flagrant call or not) Brad Miller would, at best, convert 1 of 2 free throws -- still requiring a quick jumpshot -- the same type of inbounds play the Celtics had stopped on the previous possession.

THANK YOU.

99% of the sports personality out there don't realize what you just posted. I was listening to Denholm and Long on my drive back from work yesterday and those two idiots were under the impression that if a flagrant (no distinction between a flagrant 1 or 2) was called then VDN would be able to pick the FT shooter and that the Bulls would get the ball.

sh00n · Post #11 » by **sh00n** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:20 pm

BRUNiNHO91 wrote:They lose regardless...Gordon can't score on Tony Allen..he sure as hell can't do it in 2 seconds..nope..nope

Maybe not, but we can always count on Tony Allen fouling him on the shot.

TheBurbs · Post #12 » by **TheBurbs** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:21 pm

A couple of our radio stations didn't know that either. It was suprising to me. We have one local guy here who is never ever ever wrong about anything ( in his own mind ) so it was fun watching him scramble for answers.

Post #13 » by **UGA Hayes** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:22 pm

sh00n wrote:
BRUNiNHO91 wrote:They lose regardless...Gordon can't score on Tony Allen..he sure as hell can't do it in 2 seconds..nope..nope

Maybe not, but we can always count on Tony Allen fouling him on the shot.

Am I the only one that thnks that shouldn't have been a foul. If a player doen't have room to take the shot, the defender shouldn't be penalized b/c the player still took the shot. Ther is always going to be contact in that situation. You could argue John Salmons did the same thing to Pierce the previous game and the refs correctly did not call it a foul.

Celtsfan1980 · Post #14 » by **Celtsfan1980** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:08 pm

I leave the general board to not have to hear the hatred and now trolls are coming here frequently. It does get annoying after a while.

apollocreed32 · Post #15 » by **apollocreed32** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:24 pm

if a flagrant, VDN definitely puts gordon at the line. brad was crying about it constantly grabbing at his mouth even before he missed, times 4 after. gordon just hit three clutch foul shots.

dude up there that thinks there was NO foul.. you are nuts. just because pierce drives and loses the ball. then proceeding too look all " MAN WTF???" doesnt mean he was fouled. the man is aging and has lost a step. he tries to make up for it by crying.

ray allen pushed and grabbed on every single screen throughout the night. every single one. on offense and defense. the refs called him for it once to give him a warning to stop, thats how fouls are supposed to work. except ray allen didnt listen, he kept doing it!

and guys, that last game, derrick rose didnt shoot a free throw. dont cry that hes getting everything called. he didnt shoot a single free throw. yet somehow your personal mugger kendrick perkins blocked 7 shots without fouling a single person.

all in all, the celtics seem to have been watching tape. of the 2000 decade pistons. they have cried and cried, and clearly deemed it effective.

Post #16 » by **ParticleMan** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:26 pm

UGA Hayes wrote:
sh00n wrote:
BRUNiNHO91 wrote:They lose regardless...Gordon can't score on Tony Allen..he sure as hell can't do it in 2 seconds..nope..nope

Maybe not, but we can always count on Tony Allen fouling him on the shot.

Am I the only one that thnks that shouldn't have been a foul. If a player doen't have room to take the shot, the defender shouldn't be penalized b/c the player still took the shot. Ther is always going to be contact in that situation. You could argue John Salmons did the same thing to Pierce the previous game and the refs correctly did not call it a foul.

no, you're not. i didn't see a foul either. i saw tony jump straight up, and always have his arms extended upwards. BG always jumps towards the hoop on his jumpers, so he initiated the contact. it was a crappy call, regardless of whether he stepped out before. there's no way a ref should make that call in the final minute. just another example of how we had been getting royally screwed in the deciding minutes of games.

greenbeans · Post #17 » by **greenbeans** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:27 pm

It's gonna be a tough summah for that bittah bulls fan

girlygirl · Post #18 » by **girlygirl** » Fri May 1, 2009 12:40 am

Rondo proved againt tonight he's a little punk. First he throws Hinrich into the scorer's table, then he starts to throw an elbow at his face (he either stopped himself or simply missed). So in this series he's thrown don Noah, whacked Miller in the face and thrown Hinrich into a table. How anyone can argue he's not a dirty player is beyond me.

I will give him credit for being a very good player. But he's also a nasty little punk.

Post #19 » by **canman1971** » Fri May 1, 2009 1:15 am

girlygirl wrote:Rondo proved againt tonight he's a little punk. First he throws Hinrich into the scorer's table, then he starts to throw an elbow at his face (he either stopped himself or simply missed). So in this series he's thrown don Noah, whacked Miller in the face and thrown Hinrich into a table. How anyone can argue he's not a dirty player is beyond me.

I will give him credit for being a very good player. But he's also a nasty little punk.

I saw girlygirl posted and I thought it was Brad Miller chiming in.

TheBurbs · Post #20 » by **TheBurbs** » Fri May 1, 2009 3:29 am

canman1971 wrote:
girlygirl wrote:Rondo proved againt tonight he's a little punk. First he throws Hinrich into the scorer's table, then he starts to throw an elbow at his face (he either stopped himself or simply missed). So in this series he's thrown don Noah, whacked Miller in the face and thrown Hinrich into a table. How anyone can argue he's not a dirty player is beyond me.

I will give him credit for being a very good player. But he's also a nasty little punk.

I saw girlygirl posted and I thought it was Brad Miller chiming in.

No he was the one winning the game for the Bulls tonight. I can see how that's confusing for you though. That's some super swell mod work.