Tony Allen

Dirty Water · Post #1 » by **Dirty Water** » Sat May 2, 2009 2:49 am

Has no place on this Celtics team and should be collecting unemployment checks instead of being cast into the fire cold from the bench to make bonehead fouls on 3pters and attempt layups from the freethrow line down the stretch. Discuss.

humblebum · Post #2 » by **humblebum** » Sat May 2, 2009 3:03 am

Tony should be substituted into the game from Paul Pierce with 2 minutes left in the first quarter. Doc gives him a sink or swim opportunity with a +/- point swing of 4 to see if he can stay in the game. If he plays solid defense and the lead doesn't expand for the opponent or evaporate for your own team then you're buying Pierce some needed rest.

The other option is to play House who can't defend, can't get open, and can't handle. Hmm?

Or maybe you could throw Marbury out there alongside Rondo and he'll once again struggle to find a rhythm.

My money is on Tony Allen making a positive contribution "if" Doc gets him into the game early for *Pierce* (Ray helps to provide the spacing so that his lack of shot doesn't hurt the offense as much).

To go a step further I would then sub out Perkins for Scals for a short patch so that now you have Rondo, Ray, Tony, Davis, Scals on the floor. Then sub out Rondo for Marbury, Pierce for Ray.

That's how you manage this team's bench. Hopefully Doc figures that out by tomorrow.

boshjonesford · Post #3 » by **boshjonesford** » Sat May 2, 2009 3:12 am

Tony Allen + Bryan Brini

for

Jason Kapono

BRUNiNHO91 · Post #4 » by **BRUNiNHO91** » Sat May 2, 2009 3:37 am

Tony isn't that bad of a player. Defensively he is really good. But he is just flat out (Please Use More Appropriate Word)....once he stops forcing the issue he will be good. Those drives in OT last game were...were...wow...idk what they were...probably..(Please Use More Appropriate Word)! 0_o

humblebum · Post #5 » by **humblebum** » Sat May 2, 2009 3:56 am

I don't think those were "(Please Use More Appropriate Word) plays" at all. They were bail out plays. Late in the shot clock due to poor offensive execution Tony gets the ball dumped to him with shot clock running down, he tries to make a play. And the other play Tony was open under the basket he just didn't finish. But it was a good high percentage look.

GuyClinch · Post #6 » by **GuyClinch** » Sat May 2, 2009 4:01 am

I like TA but I think Doc has lost too much confidence in the guy. He needs a change in scenery to really get the best out of him. Doc is too unwilling to play him and instead runs Pierce and RA into the ground.

Al-Haqq · Post #7 » by **Al-Haqq** » Sat May 2, 2009 4:07 am

Well he is a defensive player and that's it and that's what we need him to be.

To be fair to Tony, those two drives he got the ball and the shot clock was winding down so he had to put the shot up.

humblebum · Post #8 » by **humblebum** » Sat May 2, 2009 4:12 am

GuyClinch wrote:I like TA but I think Doc has lost too much confidence in the guy. He needs a change in scenery to really get the best out of him. Doc is too unwilling to play him and instead runs Pierce and RA into the ground.

Sad but seemingly true. Hoping Doc wakes up on Tony for game 7. And let Davis play in late-game offensive possessions over House or Marbury.

3pt % · Post #9 » by **3pt %** » Sat May 2, 2009 6:12 am

Tony is a rhythm player, and he takes a stretch of games to get into game shape. Not minutes.

Tony's game shape is more about being mentally ready, he acts from instinct. This make him great when he is in the zone, but potentially horrible when he isn't.

If Doc is going to play Tony, he has to recognise this fact and give him regular minutes. Otherwise we get the results that we are currently getting.

goulardi · Post #10 » by **goulardi** » Sat May 2, 2009 1:46 pm

humblebum wrote:Tony should be substituted into the game from Paul Pierce with 2 minutes left in the first quarter. Doc gives him a sink or swim opportunity with a +/- point swing of 4 to see if he can stay in the game. If he plays solid defense and the lead doesn't expand for the opponent or evaporate for your own team then you're buying Pierce some needed rest.

The other option is to play House who can't defend, can't get open, and can't handle. Hmm?

Or maybe you could throw Marbury out there alongside Rondo and he'll once again struggle to find a rhythm.

My money is on Tony Allen making a positive contribution "if" Doc gets him into the game early for *Pierce* (Ray helps to provide the spacing so that his lack of shot doesn't hurt the offense as much).

To go a step further I would then sub out Perkins for Scals for a short patch so that now you have Rondo, Ray, Tony, Davis, Scals on the floor. Then sub out Rondo for Marbury, Pierce for Ray.

That's how you manage this team's bench. Hopefully Doc figures that out by tomorrow.

I agree. Tony's slashing into the middle would have been a positive move in that last game.

Dirty Water · Post #11 » by **Dirty Water** » Sat May 2, 2009 3:01 pm

GuyClinch wrote:I like TA but I think Doc has lost too much confidence in the guy. He needs a change in scenery to really get the best out of him. Doc is too unwilling to play him and instead runs Pierce and RA into the ground.

Were we watching the same game Thursday? Did you not see Tony Allen F up the probably 2 most important offensive possessions of the season down the stretch in regulation?

GWVan · Post #12 » by **GWVan** » Sat May 2, 2009 3:11 pm

Tony Allen fulfills the need for RealGM Celtics fans to have some one to hate on, there always has to be someone and Cassell is gone and Veal is playing well.

Dirty Water · Post #13 » by **Dirty Water** » Sat May 2, 2009 3:13 pm

lol @ Veal. haven't heard that nickname been casually dropped in a while

JR Hawks · Post #14 » by **JR Hawks** » Sat May 2, 2009 3:23 pm

I've been watching the Celtics and NBA basketball for 25 years. In that time, I don't recall ever seeing a player with a basketball IQ lower than Tony Allen's.

One of our top priorities for the offseason should be getting rid of this guy.

MVE85 · Post #15 » by **MVE85** » Sat May 2, 2009 3:47 pm

GWVan wrote:Tony Allen fulfills the need for RealGM Celtics fans to have some one to hate on, there always has to be someone and Cassell is gone and Veal is playing well.

No I think we have Mikki Moore for that role. Tony Allen hasnt produced at all this season, he is a liability on offense and all this talk about his defense....I havent seen since last year. Signing him was a mistake in my eyes, especially after the knee problems and complete lack of confidence/ability hes shown.

Post #16 » by **canman1971** » Sat May 2, 2009 3:47 pm

I have absolutely no faith in Tony Allen. I have never liked him. He kinda won me over slightly with his play 2 years ago when PP went down, but that quickly faded. And he is not the defender everyone thinks he is.

humblebum · Post #17 » by **humblebum** » Sat May 2, 2009 4:41 pm

How is Tony not the defender people think he is?

I've watched nearly every Celtics game since Paul Pierce entered the league and have been a devoted fan for years.

I understand the game and don't just watch the ball. If you watch Tony Allen defend off the ball you'll realize two things: one, he's usually ALL OVER the guy he's guarding and two, he's very solid in help defense. On the ball, Tony is often overaggressive. But physically he can stay with anybody. He challenges people to make plays with him harassing them. Because he's overaggressive he'll sometimes open up a driving lane by overplaying to the right or left or leaving his feet... but he'll usually get himself back into the play. If there's one thing he does its to make the opponent uncomfortable because he (and everybody else) has NO IDEA what he's going to do. He's as likely to pick your pocket as he is to foul you, but he works hard and makes plays for better or worse.

The question canman, is that if you don't like Tony who do you propose to be a better option off the bench for the Celtics right now? Marbury, House? Those guys have been downright terrible at the two guard.

No, Tony Allen, despite his warts, is the best option that Doc has. But he has to get him into the game earlier enough for him to establish a rhythm. Not for Tony's sake but for the sake of rest Paul and Ray, for the sake of the team, and for the sake of the defense.

GuyClinch · Post #18 » by **GuyClinch** » Sat May 2, 2009 4:48 pm

Almost every objective measure shows TA to be a good defender. In the NBA defense is a measure of degrees - not of absolutes. Rondo is a good defender but its not like he can stop Rose. Likewise even good defenders like Pierce and TA will get scored upon.

TA is about as good as you are going to get at his position defensively.. His major weakness defensively is that Doc has let him build up his rep enough. Guys like Kobe and Paul won't get the foul calls that TA will get when he is aggressive..

You think Kobe would have picked up then Ben Gordon jump into him the other day? I doubt it. That's how the NBA goes though.

ryaningf · Post #19 » by **ryaningf** » Sat May 2, 2009 4:56 pm

humblebum wrote:
The question canman, is that if you don't like Tony who do you propose to be a better option off the bench for the Celtics right now? Marbury, House? Those guys have been downright terrible at the two guard.

That's the crux of the issue, humblebum! TA's the best option we have off-the-bench and it's not even close. People can complain about every mistake TA makes, but what they miss is that he makes less of them than Eddie House or Stephon Marbury. They can bitch about missing two shots down the stretch of a game, but they forget the shutdown job he did on defense or forget how Marbury airballed a 4-foot runner in the same game or how House allowed at least 6 points go up on the scoreboard in the same game because of terrible defense. Yes, TA has his faults and they're quite visible. But his strengths greatly outshine anything else we have off the bench.

In this series against this team, where we have a distinct quickness disadvantage, TA is needed on the perimeter when Ray or Paul are resting. We cannot afford a terrible defender like Eddie House to be out there allowing dribble penetration or open shots (and since their guards are all 6'3" or taller and House is 5'11", every shot they shoot with House guarding them is an open shot), especially since Chicago has effectively shut down House's offense. In the regular season, House was just as bad on defense but he made up for it by having a career year from 3 point land. Well, for 6 games now he's been completely invisible on offense and an absolute turnstile on defense.

The thing is, I like both Eddie and Stephon. I think Eddie is very important to the spirit and heart of this ballclub. He's a good teammate and a scrapper. If Doc plays him AGAIN, I'll cheer my ass of for him and hope he gets an open look or two and drains them. He's definitely due for a big ball game. Same goes for Marbury, who's done a great job as a backup point guard. The only problem is, Rondo sits about 5 minutes a game and Marbury has played pretty terrible at 2 guard. But I'm cheering for both those guys...if Doc decides to go with them, we're going to need their best minutes of the series.

That said, it's painfully obvious to me that TA's skillset presents to best option off the bench. And I say that knowing full well that 99.94% of the Internet thinks that's completely insane. But 99.94% of the Internet is wrong this time and I just hope Doc figures it out in time.

humblebum · Post #20 » by **humblebum** » Sat May 2, 2009 4:57 pm

I don't think there's much Doc could do to help Tony build his rep defensively. I think the reality is that Doc is obsessed with offensive spacing and this is why he's continually gone with Eddie and Marbury in this series over TA, despite how negatively those players have impacted the Celtics. If you play TA more minutes he'll make a greater number of good defensive plays but IMO there will always be a couple of head-scratching type plays with TA... he's just too aggressive at times and that gets him in trouble with the referrees.