RealGM

(Edited)
So after calculating some season-end statistics, I was toying around creating a formula to estimate the league's smartest/stupidest players (for last season, at least, based on performance). NOTE - really, we are talking about which players bring (brought) the most (and least) intangibles to the table this past season.

Lets leave the statistical format hypothetical for now, I am not trying to sell anyone on it. But I figure this makes for a worthwhile, interesting, and just on-topic enough offseason discussion. So, given the lists below, who do you think does/doesn't belong on them...who would you have on these lists if you were making them from scratch, off the top of your head....

Top 50 smartest (highest bballIQ, most intangibles):

Battier, Shane
Wallace, Ben
West, Delonte
Odom, Lamar
James, LeBron
Turkoglu, Hedo
Moon, Jamario
Hinrich, Kirk
Fisher, Derek
Kidd, Jason
Foster, Jeff
Walton, Luke
Przybilla, Joel
Simmons, Bobby
Weaver, Kyle
Bell, Raja
Blake, Steve
Allen, Ray
Lewis, Rashard
Iguodala, Andre
Gallinari, Danilo
Bonner, Matt
Nelson, Jameer
Cardinal, Brian
Magloire, Jamaal
Scalabrine, Brian
Parker, Anthony
Paul, Chris
Posey, James
Udoka, Ime
Wallace, Gerald
Artest, Ron
Ming, Yao
Mason, Roger
Wade, Dwyane
Diaw, Boris
Bogans, Keith
Martin, Kenyon
Ariza, Trevor
Ratliff, Theo
Afflalo, Arron
Gibson, Daniel
Wallace, Rasheed
Battie, Tony
Mason, Desmond
Young, Thaddeus
Johnson, Amir
Nocioni, Andres
Thomas, Tim
Bowen, Bruce

Top 50 Stupidest (lower bballIQ, less intangibles):

Jordan, DeAndre
Hawes, Spencer
Skinner, Brian
Daniels, Antonio
Howard, Juwan
Maxiell, Jason
Wilcox, Chris
Kaman, Chris
Randolph, Anthony
Ellis, Monta
Davis, Ricky
Smith, Craig
Blatche, Andray
Gooden, Drew
Maggette, Corey
Dunleavy, Mike
Stuckey, Rodney
Beasley, Michael
Wright, Brandan
O'Neal, Jermaine
Nesterovic, Rasho
Lowry, Kyle
Thomas, Tyrus
Garcia, Francisco
Speights, Marreese
Love, Kevin
Gomes, Ryan
Solomon, Will
Boozer, Carlos
Hickson, J.J.
Gortat, Marcin
Brown, Bobby
Davis, Baron
Miller, Brad
Dooling, Keyon
Bargnani, Andrea
Smith, Joe
Bynum, Will
Thornton, Al
Krstic, Nenad
Landry, Carl
Salmons, John
Kurz, Rob
Randolph, Zach
Mobley, Cuttino
Kleiza, Linas
Hibbert, Roy
Villanueva, Charlie
Novak, Steve
Williams, Louis

I don't find Lamar Odom to be that smart.

How can you objectively measure who is the smartest or most stupid? This is an absolutely ignorant and judgemental post without merit. I see that you are trying to identify players who know the game and those that just play it. Although there are players on both lists that fit into those categories, ranking them according to smart or stupid is not a good idea.

You can identify players with high basketball iq and players with low basketball iq, but that doesnt neccesarily mean that player x is smarter or more stupid than y player. Being on the right team with the right chemistry can make you look a lot smarter than you really are. Circumstance is huge, ranking players in totally team environments and different stages of learning the game useless. Playing for a last place team without any motivation can make you played uninspired, "stupid" ball. Take Baron Davis for instance, after watching him play for the Clippers last season you would think he isn't a smart player based on his poor play. In reality, he was at odds with a coach that was making him change his style of game. How do you justify Kyle Lowry as being one of the 50 stupidest players? Did you see his SAT scores? What makes Delonte West that much smarter than Ryan Gomes? You don't even validate any of your players.

There are so many factors that go into making a player be regarded as a thinker, doer, hi bball iq, low bball iq, etc. that trying to objectively rank them in a list is pointless. With some players its more clear cut what they are, for instance Scalabrine is definetly is a cerebral player. This isn't necessarily because he's smart, its because his mental skills are more valuable than his physical skills. With players like Amir Johnson, how can he be considered one of the 50 smartest players if he hasn't had the responsibility to make key decisions and felt pressure like other players under bigger spotlights? Its possible to compare the basketball IQ of teammates if you watch enough game tape, but to be able to analyze every player on every team and rank them either the smartest or dumbest, is completely insane. Please consider your words before making posts like this. Its one thing to indetify players you consider to be "heady" players, but to name 50 players that you consider to be the stupidest is not necessary. It would maybe be acceptable if you were criticizing each players bball iq and breaking it down, but really you are just slandering the names of players without any evidence or points. Again think more before you spew such vile ignorance.

Ron Artest is a lot of things. Smart is not one that comes to my mind.

Youth4Glory wrote:You can identify players with high basketball iq and players with low basketball iq, but that doesnt neccesarily mean that player x is smarter or more stupid than y player. Being on the right team with the right chemistry can make you look a lot smarter than you really are. Circumstance is huge, ranking players in totally team environments and different stages of learning the game useless. Playing for a last place team without any motivation can make you played uninspired, "stupid" ball. Take Baron Davis for instance, after watching him play for the Clippers last season you would think he isn't a smart player based on his poor play. In reality, he was at odds with a coach that was making him change his style of game. How do you justify Kyle Lowry as being one of the 50 stupidest players? Did you see his SAT scores? What makes Delonte West that much smarter than Ryan Gomes? You don't even validate any of your players.

For the record, I agree with everything you say here. Also, when I say smart/stupid I am thinking more along the lines of BBall IQ. I also emphasize that this is based on one season's worth of data, and that there is obviously no fool proof objective measure of a player's BBall IQ (or figurative IQ, for that matter).

I am also not saying Delonte West is smarter than Ryan Gomes. I am asking, is he?

you need to break it down further, atleast by draft year and position. u have players learning completely different facets of the game with different expectations at different points in their careers.

Also, what "data" are you using to measure this? Did you watch every minute of every player's season? Being a smart or dumb players is a lot more subtle than steals and t/o stats

Youth4Glory wrote:
Also, what "data" are you using to measure this? Did you watch every minute of every player's season? Being a smart or dumb players is a lot more subtle than steals and t/o stats

The data mostly derives from box score data (and stuff like plus minus). Statistics used to arrive at a comprehensive score include 'slightly adjusted' plus minus and ORTG/DRTG, PER, also a few proprietary stats like 'adjusted three point shooting,' 'adjusted 2 point shooting,' 'adjusted TO%,' etc....note that when I say "adjusted" it usually that means adjusted for team and teammate performance, a player's relation to team/teamate performance, sometimes minutes per game, etcetera. Some data is adjusted per position in the end.

In other words, the data is purely statistical and not based on observation, but is fairly complicated and not "run of the mill" statistical data.

The lists above generally result from comparing a player's comprehensive 'complicated' statistics (i.e. my own version of "Composite Score") with more traditional box score type measures (including PER) which are known or could be considered to do a decent job of measuring tangible contributions, but clearly tend not to take into account various intangibles. This is more of an initial run.

Plus, again, aside from the "statistic," I figure this general subject makes for valid conversation, anyway...

If your not going to produce the "data" then or show us the statistics your 'system' looks pretty judgemental and dumb. You can find statistics that will make all kinds of random lists - that doesn't mean they have any actual validity.

Mike Dunleavy, Brad Miller and Chris Kaman are "dumb"? Really? I have met a few players on the 'dumb' list and they didn't seem particularly stupid. I think your statistic is trash.

So smart versus stupid was a poor word choice. Really this is all about intangibles.

GuyClinch wrote:If your not going to produce the "data" then or show us the statistics your 'system' looks pretty judgemental and dumb. You can find statistics that will make all kinds of random lists - that doesn't mean they have any actual validity.

If you would like I could link the spreadsheet briefly, but it might be a little hard to follow at the moment. I could provide some lists for various statistical categories, that would use up a few posts. Really, would it matter? In the end its still just a random statistic either you are open to it or not. It might as well be hypothetical.

For the record, I am not saying the lists I provide should be taken as meaning much. I am not saying I agree with the names on them (although I certainly agree with a few and others make logical sense to me). If I was going to list players in both categories off of the top of my head based on what I have seen/watched/widely heard about, names that would come to mind include (in no particular order)...and I wouldn't expect them to be fully accurate...

Good -

Steve Nash
Shane Battier
Bruce Bowen
Brian Scalabrine
Lebron James (he belongs on almost any list nowadays)
Kevin Garnett
Raja Bell
Delonte West (he did provide solid leadership)
Kirk Hinrich
Chris Paul
Josh Howard
Tim Duncan
Luke Walton
Josh Childress
Jamario Moon
Hedu Turkoglu

Bad -

Antoine Walker (obviously)
Jason Hart
Drew Gooden
Dahntay Jones
Linas Kleiza
Stephen Jackson
TJ Ford
Rafer Alston
Zach Randolph
Charlie V
Willie Green
Al Thornton

Mike Dunleavy would have definitely been on my 'bad' list two seasons ago. He was injured most of this season and I didn't catch all too much of him in '07-08.

Smart squad
Manu Ginobili
Brandon Roy
Rudy Fernandez
Hedo Turkoglu
Chauncey Billups

Dumb squad
Dwight Howard
Tony Allen
Gilbert Arenas

smartest: Kobe Bryant

stupidest: Gerald Green

if you do not have kobe in your smartest players list your a hater and should not watch basketball, im amazed at some people on here.

Wow, look how many Clippers you have there:

Steve Novak
Cuttino Mobley (was there until the trade)
Zach Randolph
Al Thornton
Baron Davis
Mike Dunleavy (the son of the coach and the GM so i count him)
Corey Maggete (was there till last off season)
Ricky Davis
Chris Kaman
DeAndre Jordan

and the only smart player they had (Tim Thomas, huh?) they traded

funny team...

bosFcelts wrote:Ron Artest is a lot of things. Smart is not one that comes to my mind.

LOL

I can only comment on the guys that I watch everyday. So that's Celtic & Cavs players.

LeBron is easily the smartest player of this group. Brian Scalabrine & Ray Allen are both real smart plalyers.

Tony Allen and Sasha Pavlovic are both complete dunces. I can't imagine dumber players.

Did you perhaps mean to say:

"Guys, I'm working on a statistical formula to estimate BB IQ. Here are some results it calculates. How well or badly do you think it matches up against reality?"

If so, that's a perfectly valid question.

DumbyTheWizard wrote:Wow, look how many Clippers you have there...

I didn't even notice but good point. On one hand that was a bad team last year and some of those names don't strike me as out of place. But for the record I get the sense that the Kings & Clippers are discriminated against, possibly due to injuries/midseason trade and the way certain stats are formed. Of course it could also be poor coaching or even tanking to blame on certain levels.

LeBron is easily the smartest player of this group. Brian Scalabrine & Ray Allen are both real smart plalyers.

Tony Allen and Sasha Pavlovic are both complete dunces. I can't imagine dumber players.

LeBron might be. Its tough to separate his tangible influences from the intangibles. I swear he seems to come in at #1 or at least top twenty in almost every logical statistical category you could think of.

Tony's (in)ability to think and act at the same time is at least partially balanced by the intangibles he brings to the table in terms of energy/aggressiveness/defense. I wouldn't consider him bottom of the barrel.

(ETA - One thing Pavlovic & TA have in common is they are near the bottom of the league in my adjusted TO% stat, which seeks to separate forced TO's from unforced TO's, to an extent. Since unforced TO's would be a logical indicator of poor bball IQ, perhaps I should be incorporating that more into the bballIQ stat.)

"Guys, I'm working on a statistical formula to estimate BB IQ. Here are some results it calculates. How well or badly do you think it matches up against reality?"

If so, that's a perfectly valid question.

On some level, yes. On another level, the question is simply what do you think reality is? This isn't something that is easily measurable.