Keep Ray!!! or Lessons learnt of the Billups-Iverson trade

Bruiser · Post #1 » by **Bruiser** » Fri May 22, 2009 11:15 am

Hey yo!

When Denver stole Billups from Detroit I was shocked because I thought Joe D was a great GM and that move seemed plain stupid to me. Media didn't agree and they rushed to pencil Detroit as an ECF candidate. Some months later, it is crystal clear that Denver got the best part of this trade. But this thread is meant to analize the difference between a "sexy" player and a great player. A great player can not be sized by stats. Or at least, not just by stats.

Billups is much better than AI. It´s not even close.
Nowadays most people should agree with this but some years ago this affirmation would arise many rabid reactions from many many people. But its not a matter of AI losing a step. It´s all about the approach.

Don't get me wrong. I love AI's heart. He is a warrior. But the way he plays the game is not efficient.
On the other side, Billups is a team-builder and a killer. If you want enterteinment you pick AI, if you want to win you pick Chauncey.

Now regarding Ray, we have one of the most skilled players in the game. A winner. But most of all, when this team is healthy, he fits PERFECT. So, I really hope we don't lose him.

Any thoughts? Kind regards.

Kids Are Alright · Post #2 » by **Kids Are Alright** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:08 pm

pretty much sucked against the magic
we need some good young players
maybe not at Ray's spot, though
Ray does have a lot of Billups in him, though....smart, assassin type guy...
hmmmmm

Tricky Ricky · Post #3 » by **Tricky Ricky** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:32 pm

I think the only thing this trade showed was that Detroit was ready to rebuild around Stuckey. I think they knew Billups was the better player but they could either be stuck in the second round for 2 or 3 years or start rebuilding now.

bawstin · Post #4 » by **bawstin** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:37 pm

That trade was a salary dump for detriot. I don't think they even cared if Iverson showed up.

mwhis21 · Post #5 » by **mwhis21** » Fri May 22, 2009 1:17 pm

Terrible comparison.

This was a complete salary dump for Detroit who wants to build around Stuckey. Not to mention there is a huge difference between the PG spot and the SG spot. I don't think people are advocating getting rid of Ray for nothing which is what Detroit did with Billups, but Ray is our biggest bargaining chip whether people want to admit it or not. So it would be best if we all accept the fact that Ray rumors are going to fly all off-season.

bruno sundov · Post #6 » by **bruno sundov** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:41 pm

Kids Are Alright wrote:pretty much sucked against the magic
we need some good young players
maybe not at Ray's spot, though
Ray does have a lot of Billups in him, though....smart, assassin type guy...
hmmmmm

+1

I will take it a little further. All Ray can do for us is score. WHen he doesn't score he doesn't contribute. His D for the most part is average. So When Chauncey doesn't score he plays light out D and can distribute. Where is that from Ray.

chakdaddy · Post #7 » by **chakdaddy** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:50 pm

Hey, if Denver knocks off LA, you know who is ultimately responsible?

The Boston Celtics, for making Chauncey Billups look washed up in the ECF.

Post #8 » by **ParticleMan** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:57 pm

I agree with the OP (even though maybe the comparison isn't great).
Ray means a HUGE amount to this team. It's not measured in stats, although the stats aren't bad.
He shot a ridiculously high percentage. He spreads the floor to let Paul and our post guys work. He is absolutely clutch. He is a veteran player who will always make the right play.
And if you think his D is "average", you haven't been paying attention.
He has the lowest Opponent's PER of any rotation player. Lower than PP, KG, Perk, or Rondo, all of whom are supposedly better defensive players.

Don't judge him by the ORL series. He had a bad hamstring and had to be exhausted after the CHI series. What we really need isn't to get rid of Ray, it's to get a quality backup at the 2/3 spot so that Ray and Paul can get some more rest.

bruno sundov · Post #9 » by **bruno sundov** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:12 pm

chakdaddy wrote:Hey, if Denver knocks off LA, you know who is ultimately responsible?

The Boston Celtics, for making Chauncey Billups look washed up in the ECF.

Chauncey played on one leg all series. Remember when he tweaked the anckle or hammy the series before? He still played well.

Dave_From_NB · Post #10 » by **Dave_From_NB** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:29 pm

I don't remember any journalists I respect thinking that getting Iverson was going to make Detroit better. Moving Billups was just a salary thing to get rid of future committment, and to create the spot for Stuckey.

The impact of this trade isn't fully known yet, we'll need to understand what Detroit will do with the available cap space this summer to know whether the move worked out or not.

I'll say though, I'm impressed with what Billups has accomplished in Denver.

GreenGrizz · Post #11 » by **GreenGrizz** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:31 pm

Ray Allen probably would average 25 per game somewhere else. Don't forget that he couldn't save Seattle with Lewis and Ridnour. Ainge wouldn't refuse a good offer which is very unlikey, anyway. We need to worry about convincing him to stay here for less money. He got a few years left in him. One team may be looking for some financial situation and would kill to trade for him. Who knows?

Rocky5000 · Post #12 » by **Rocky5000** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:40 pm

Ray apparently had a pulled hamstring in the Orlando series which would explain his performance. (Although Ben Gordon had the same injury versus us in the first round, which didn't seem to effect him.) >:(

Paul had knee problems and might have surgery, which explains why he couldn't stay in front of Salmons or Turkoglu. Perk aggrevated his shouler, and Rondo had 2 sprained ankles. What does this all mean? Every single starter was either injured or banged up. There's two paths we can take from here, we can expect injuries to continue to hamper our aging stars and try to become younger, or we can just treat it as a fluke occurence and hope for a better year injury wise. Given the health history of KG, Ray, and Paul, I personally think it was a fluke.

Fencer reregistered · Post #13 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Fri May 22, 2009 6:20 pm

What's sad is that a 3rd-team All-NBA player was given away for nothing.

Well, sad from Detroit's standpoint ...

Yet somehow we had to pay a lottery pick for Ray, yet give players that Seattle later traded to Cleveland for a late first rounder, improving Cleveland ....

chakdaddy · Post #14 » by **chakdaddy** » Fri May 22, 2009 8:22 pm

Around here, the sentiment of most Pistons fans was that Billups was washed up. And that shaking things up for Iverson was worth a shot, with worst case scenario still clearing a bunch of cap room.

The worst case scenario happened, obviously. Pistons are hurting unless they win big in FA. All their young guys are really looking overhyped - why did Amir Johnson start half the season? I've never seen him do anything. Stuckey is certainly good sometimes, but he's not there yet. Prince has really gone down the tubes. Rasheed seems to have lost interest. Hamilton/Stuckey is practically all they have, although I've always kind of liked Maxiell - he always struck me as a better version of BBD, but now it seems like the other way around.

Barstool Blues · Post #15 » by **Barstool Blues** » Sun May 24, 2009 10:50 pm

bruno sundov wrote:
Kids Are Alright wrote:pretty much sucked against the magic
we need some good young players
maybe not at Ray's spot, though
Ray does have a lot of Billups in him, though....smart, assassin type guy...
hmmmmm

+1

I will take it a little further. All Ray can do for us is score. WHen he doesn't score he doesn't contribute. His D for the most part is average. So When Chauncey doesn't score he plays light out D and can distribute. Where is that from Ray.

Wrong. Ray Allen spreads the floor better then anyone in this league. He doesn't even need to be scoring or involved directly with the ball to make an positive impact. By just being out there he makes it easier for everyone else. I can see why trading his 20 million dollar expiring contract would be attractive, but I also see no reason to do it when a healthy Celtics should easily be the favorites next year.

bruno sundov · Post #16 » by **bruno sundov** » Tue May 26, 2009 11:59 am

Yeah for him to spread the floor he has to hit shots. 2 years in a row now he hit a giant wall come playoff time. He is getting old and his value will never be higher. Sell high w/ Ray Allen.

Hemingway · Post #17 » by **Hemingway** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:06 pm

While he may be overrated right now, if he resigns for MLE money or less we will have him at a very good value. His mindset of retiring a Celtic is probably a key factor in Danny's mind on possible trades.

Kefa461 · Post #18 » by **Kefa461** » Thu May 28, 2009 7:36 pm

Ray played hurt and it bothered him.....it won't cost him his job. Paul did too and it won't cost him his either.

8-)

bruno sundov · Post #19 » by **bruno sundov** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:57 pm

Yeah ray played with a strained hammy. So did every other player in the playoffs. It's like play through it.

P2 nothing bad can be said about him he is my boy.

KG did he really miss the playoffs just because of bone spurs in the knee? If that's true than mabe he isn't the warrior I thought he was.