Anyone who thinks Ray is even in real trade talks

[Jwade]

Needs to rethink whether or not they are really a Celtics fan.

I see 0 trades this offseason, just expirings and signing.

[the whiz]

Who knows how real trade talks are at this point, but Ainge should be on the phone looking at what he can get for him. There's a few reasons why there could be fire to the smoke we're seeing. One reason is he's a large expiring contract. Teams are trying to get cap room for the free agent crop of next summer, why not get a player that's in the last year of his deal and could still contribute at a high level in the regular season? Another thing to consider is the story of Ainge telling Red he would've traded the original big three when they were aging. Trading Ray is one thing, but it doesn't hurt for Ainge to see what's out there for him.

[SonicYouth34]

If we wanted to trade Pierce, that's anti-Celtic. Ray has been here for 2 years, its not like he's been here for over a decade like Truth.

We need to trade Scala + TA for some wing help or a big man. That's a fact. Then we need to use the MLE on the one we didn't fill through the trade

[MaxwellSmart]

It makes no sense to hold onto Ray Allen and let his contract expire--cause we are not even close to being under the Salary Cap.....If we choose to hang onto him--we CANNOT get a High Profile player to sign with us in 2010-2011---cause all we'll have is the MLE (if that)...We'll be left with the Big TWO...So, Danny should be looking to get an All Star type player THIS Summer....Someone who makes big money,has a longer contract--and is YOUNGER---it's the ONLY way to get another All Star to play along side Pierce and KG for the next few years.....Not saying Ray is washed up---but he is old and was not effective AT ALL vs. Orlando....His contract is valuable NOW and adding Rondo should bring a TON in a trade.

When you are over the cap AND you have a HUGE expiring contract--I think you have to make trades to make your team better---that is IF you are ACTUALLY trying to win a title----Losing teams and teams looking to cut payroll, ACQUIRE expiring contracts-----Winning teams use them to get better----Don't you think Cleveland wishes they could go back to the deadline and trade Wally's contract for Shaq, when they had the chance??

[ParticleMan]

What's un-celtic is not exploring every possibility to improve the team. that's what ainge is doing i'm sure, and ray's expiring deal (and his productivity) is a nice combo. i love ray and i'd love it if he's here next year, but if we can swap him for a better player, younger, whatever, then you have to put sentimentality aside and pull the trigger.

[Dogen]

QFT, ParticleMan. I don't want to see a great player who got us back to the championship go, but it's a business and the team needs to do what's best for the team.

And then there's that moment when the new player holds up the Celtic jersey to their chest for the first time--- ahhh! The look on the players face says they KNOW they are now part of true basketball lore. I'll probably always think of Ray in green even if he's traded, but I'm sure I could get used to the idea of A'mare in green real quick.

[Mahoney_jr]

We should expect Ainge to give out an offer to Rondo AND to Ray for an extension, but both offers will be favourable to the Celtics (around 8-9 Mill per season for both players). The rumors are part of the negotiations. Maybe Ainge got their names in the papers to let them feel a little bit uncomfortable to increase their eagerness to sign for security reasons as well.

[Fencer reregistered]

Who are we going to get back in a salary-dump for Ray that is better than Ray?

[GuyClinch]

Anyone could go. I remember similiar threads about Al Jefferson.

[Dave_From_NB]

Zero trades - I suppose you consider guys like Tony Allen, JR Giddens and Gabe Pruitt to be untouchables.

I think we should all stop being Celtics fans at the point Ainge stops trying to improve the team. And if he isn`t looking at deals to improve the team then he isn`t trying.

[bruno sundov]

I'm a hardcore C's fan and ray Allen is probably gone this summer. The league sucks financially and he has a big ole fat expiring contract this year.

[Celts17Pride]

People don't get it. It's the off-season and these websites (HoopsWorld, HoopsHype etc.) need rumors of any kind just to get you to view their website. They will write about even the most absurd rumors because there is nothing else to write about. It's the off-season.

Ray Allen will probably be in about 50 trade rumors this off-season and come opening night he will be wearing #20 for the Boston Celtics.

[BakersDozen]

one week we are signing Ray to an extension the next we are trading him along with our starting pg for Amare... its going to be a long offseason.

[Pogue Mahone]

I would argue that there are many player's who could possibly fit in better than Ray as a fourth option (if Rondo stays), strengthens other positions on the squad or both.

My argument all along has been that if Ray Allen is not impacting games via his shooting, he is not bringing much to the table. Sure, everyone goes through shooting slumps and I have no problem with Ray Allen shooting 1-15 if he is playing in a manner that augments and accentuates his teammates. The problem is, even when he is shooting well, he is rarely augmenting and accentuating. It is all obfuscated by the pretty shooting and high scoring numbers.

You saw in the Orlando series, multiple times in the playoffs last year and in big regular season games over the past two years that the way to kill the Celtics offense is to put the ball into Ray Allen's hands. Some like to say "If Rondo could play off the ball more" which on the surface sounds like a pretty good argument. But think about all that implies--- both the good and the bad.

A few people on here accused me of not understanding basketball, being purely a "Ray hater", not a Celtic fan, etc. Not to grovel but reality was closer to what I have been saving all along, especially so when compared to many (not all) of the counter-arguments that were put forth when I attempted to initiate discussion on the topic.

My major issues with Ray Allen are that he 1. needs the ball to be effective, 2. is ill-suited to play as a primarily on-the-ball threat, 3. is too deliberate, 4. he doesn't consistently provide spacing for teammates, and 5. cost of ownership outweighs benefits of ownership.

1. Ray needs the ball to be effective. When he runs off of multiple screens, players are out of position for the offensive rebound. Additionally, as I have stated multiple times, a two-point mid-range shot, when shot by a perimeter player, is only worth the value of that shot. With bigs, their opponents will have to unpack the lane*. With a perimeter player, no additional spacing is provided because the bigs remain packed in the lane area and help perimeter players can sag to the painted area. I would argue that the mid-range shot, for a perimeter player, is one of the most worthless shots in basketball, especially if you are not picking up fouls off of it.

*A mid-range jumper for a big is often overrated, as well. While it is just another tool in the box, if they are not staying spaced and only pop-out for jumpers, the paint remains clogged. The added benefit of space isn't achieved.

2. Ray Allen is just not adept enough to make plays, for both himself and teammates, consistently on the ball. In fact, we have three other players who can beat double coverage by themselves already in the starting line-up and they can do it better than Allen. He tends to dribble with his head down and often ignores the picker on a dive to the tin. With his jumper and even average playmaking abilities, he would be death in the two-man pick game. Unfortunately, he is not capable of that.

He is also not skilled enough to create for others off of the dribble. If he had even modicum level of playmaking, the offense would be much improved. Again, unfortunately he doesn't.

3. He is too deliberate. He lacks the sense of purpose to initiate a move when a defender is already out of position. It would be one thing if he was waiting for help defenders to clear but he tends to dribble aimlessly in circles for 10+ seconds at the top of arc. Most notably, he likes to dribble to the right hand side, dribble back left and find Garnett or Davis for a pop-out 18-footer. It was strangely familiar to the Delonte West school of playmaking.

4. As noted above, he doesn't consistently provide spacing for teammates. Spacing doesn't necessarily mean "shoot from outside". Spacing means showing the discipline, understanding of teammate's tendencies, knowledge of the play being run, etc and using those things to draw your man or another defender away from the play. It also means that you make yourself an off-the-ball threat by using the geometry of the floor against the help defenders. Sure, moving to an open-spot might provide you with an open offensive look but it doesn't necessarily help the second and third options in the play being run. There is a big distinction there.

There is absolutely no excuse for poor space discipline, though, because it shows a clear ignorance/indifference to your teammates' comfort zones, it means you have zero understanding of how to help without touching the ball and it demonstrates the inability to apply even the most meager of skills in a manner that accents your teammates.

Sure, there are going to be times when there is a broken play and space discipline suffers. That is only natural. Let me pimp Scal as an example. Has anyone ever really watched what Scal does as the third man in the pick-and-roll? Have you seen him slide to adjust for the angle at which the ball-handler is coming off of the pick? Do you see how he often turns his body on the anticipation of the pass so he can shield the ball from his man who is likely attempting to sag? This slight adjustment gives Scal a "head start" so he can swing the ball on the catch if the shot isn't there. Or how about when Scal makes a pass on the perimeter into the corner. If the shot isn't there for a teammate, immediately on the release of the pass he is moving to get in position to set a pick and the only option for the defense is to go under the pick because attempting to go over the top will likely result in a shooting foul (it is because the distance from the three point line to out of bounds is at its narrowest. One dribble laterally to free, a half second to set your feet and the shooter is completely open in all but some instances.) Most teams will attempt to guard the baseline in this instance and will fail to send top-side help.

How many times has Ray Allen set a pick on a non-inbounds play? How many times has Ray remained stationary to ensure his defender can't sag into the play? How long does Ray Allen remain in the area when the play isn't being run for him?

5. Lastly, cost of ownership outweighs the benefits of ownership. Sure, Ray Allen's contract is a sunk cost. That being said, his salary "slot" (not a true slot, hence the quotations) could be better utilized in a myriad of applications. Money will need to be reserved for a Rondo extension (assuming he is not traded.) That can come, at least partially, from other expirings on the roster.

I am of the belief (and have been for over a year and half) that the best way to get value for Ray is to think of his role and not who he is, his name recognition, how he looks doing something, his professionalism, etc, because those things don't win ball games. Playing to your role, being a dependable teammate who can help to pick up a teammate's drop of production when needed, sacrificing your own game and, at times, your body, to ensure that team gets that possession ... well, that wins ball games.

When the Celtics offense is running optimally, it is because of dribble penetration and/or establishing Perkins/Garnett on the box. It is because Rajon Rondo has the ball in his hands and Ray Allen doesn't have it in his (except as a shot-converter.) It is because all five starters are touching the ball and involved in the offense.

Ray has demonstrated, time and again, to be incapable of properly running a two man pick game due to factors such as his inability to dribble with his head up, his unwillingness/inability to find the picker, his penchant for over-dribbling and his overall decision-making in that facet of the game. There is nothing wrong with that, either, except that it rightfully should eliminate that as an option of generating offense.

Additionally, Rondo, Pierce and Garnett are all more talented playmakers for teammates (I would argue Perkins is, as well.) You don't marginalize facilitators for one-dimensional shot-finishers if you want the offense to run smoothly. Instead, you put the ball in the hands of the dynamic players and allow them to create for teammates. Many feel that marginalizes Ray's skillset which I have admitted since jumpstreet is greater than the role he is being asked to play. That doesn't mean it is not best for the Boston Celtics.

So, moving forward, ideally, Ray is a fourth option in this offense when paired with the starters. In parts of the second and fourth QTRs, he is somewhat of a de facto sixth man. What's my point?

The Celtics need to fill only two positions if they were to replace Ray Allen.

1. A shooting guard who can provide space, dribble with his head up, provide entry passes to the post, is able to do most of his damage from the right hand side of the court, can shoot from a standstill and
a. Has some point guard skills, or
b. Has the ability to legitimately cover most swing forwards.

2. A sixth man-type, preferably a perimeter player, who can eat possessions and score at about league average rates when Pierce goes to the bench.

Is Ray more talented than either of those roles? Of course. I never said Ray was not talented just that the application of his skill-set is ill-applied. And even though he is unable to adequately fill the first role, he does a fairly good job on the second role, except he shies from contact on his forays to the hoop and shoots way too many mid-range jumpers.

I think the time is too late to trade Ray for good value, to be honest, as I think that ship has long sailed. I see why some disagree but the only value Ray has as an expiring is for his contract. Finding a three-way that could bring back players 1 and 2 is still feasible but I have my doubts.

Additionally, if player 1 is a better help and man defender, can adequately run the pick-and-roll and pick-and-pop, can keep the ball moving, can consistently catch and shoot from a standstill and doesn't need to take a confidence dribble or come off picks, that can not be overlooked.

If player 2 can play any semblance of defense when Kendrick Perkins and Kevin Garnett are not behind him, can shoot from distance and/or get to the free throw line via the bounce, can legitimately back-up both SG and SF, that is a tremendous boost to both the starters AND the bench.

[GuyClinch]

I believe in shooting more then Pogue - and while Ray has been decent.

He has an expiring contract and he is overpaid for his contribution. Earlier this year we had a Ray gush thread after he had a big scoring game. People felt vindicated for loving the guy. But I pointed out how he came VERY close to costing us a championship vs. Cleveland. And this year he didn't do well in the playoffs vs. Orlando even though just like in Cleveland he had a clear matchup advantage.

It's one thing that a guy doesn't produce - if the defense is FOCUSING on him. We shut down Lebron - or at least made him very inefficent last year. That doesn't mean he is bad. But we focused our entire d on that.

But Ray Allen has had trouble with Wally S and now Reddick. You throw in that and an expiring contract and Ray is #1 most likely to be traded. i put Rondo second with a fat extension "due" to him..But trading both would not shock me..

i could totally see the C's making some big moves this offseason. One thing that drives moves is dominating play by rivals. IF the Lakers beat up on Orlando (very likely IMHO) this could drive Danny to take more chances.

Pete

[sully00]

I don't have much interest in trading Ray Allen, he is still the best at what he does, and without a near equal on the perimeter this team has little chance to win a championship. More importantly you can't get away with Rondo if you don't have Ray Allen which is why they are likely being paired together in trade talks.

I like Rondo quite a bit, even before Boston got him. I love what he can bring to the game. I do not view him as a "star" player at least not a player who is going to be a top two option in your offense. I think Boston finds itself trying to rebuild around Rondo and Perk it is screwed. They have to have a price they will go to on Rondo and hold their, two or three years ago everyone including Danny Ainge would have given the world for Shaun Livingston and now he can barely hold on for the minimum.

I don't think Ainge is necessarily going to shop either or both but for a precious few situations, specifically the one being discussed recently I think you have to find out what the deal is.

[campybatman]

Anyone who believes that there isn't any truth to Hoopsworld proclamation that Ray's indeed on the block. Needs to rethink their opinion realistically. Ainge wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't explore opportunities for this player or that player on the roster whether he actually intends on trading him or not. Remember, Ainge doesn't necessarily have to be the person initiating a telephone conversation, other teams could be calling him. It's his job to listen... Do I myself believe that Ray will be traded before next season? No, I don't see the need right now. But, then I've no idea who would be offered in return for him by a team with an interest in his expiring contract. I wouldn't take back a longterm contract that's a bad contract.

[Rocky5000]

After Pierce, Tony Allen is the 2nd longest tenured Celtic. I don't think how long you have or haven't been around, should have an effect on who gets traded.

[the whiz]

Actually, Perk is the 2nd longest tenured Celt but I agree with your statement 5000.

[Celtics_Champs]

If this thread was made in the middle of the playoffs, I would be the first one to say QFT or plus 1. Because I don't think dumb trade ideas should be discussed when a team is still playing and has a chance.

With that being said, let's be real. It's the off-season and there are going to be a lot of trade ray, and rumor ideas on this board. Some can be really outrageous, but others make sense, like this amare one. You can't call us fake fans just because we discuss this stuff. What is there else to discuss, who we will take with the 58th pick? Or maybe we can slob over Kobe.