RealGM

The trade talks regarding Rondo make me ill. The talk about his "overrated defense" and our "4 on 5 offense" with him out there is beyond ludicrous. I, like most of the people here, watch a lot of basketball. I also understand the game pretty well. Unlike many people here, though, I also understand the stats and how they relate to a player's performance. Here's a rundown on what our young PG did this postseason.

1. He nearly averaged a triple double. Most people know this, but don't seem to actually be able to wrap their minds around what this entails. Well, here are some angles on that near triple double

a. Rondo led all players in assists for the postseason. Yup, he didn't play in the conference finals, nor in the Finals, but he still had the most dimes of anyone.

b. He finished 6th in total rebounds for the playoffs and 8th in rebounds per game. The seven ahead of him? Dwight Howard, Boozer, Noah, Perk, Yao, Gasol and Nowitzki. None shorter than 6'9", and all true bigs. Rondo is a 6'1" point guard.

c. He scored scored 16.9 ppg shooting .417 from the field. Chris Paul scored 16.6 shooting .411 and Deron Williams scored 20.2 shooting .414. Their TS% was better, but not a ton better. Call me crazy, but aren't those two widely considered "the best"?

2. Rondo finished 3 steals shy of tying for the total lead for the playoffs. TOTAL.

3. He is often compared to Jason Kidd. In Kidd's first playoffs he averaged 12.0 ppg, 6.0 reb and 9.8 ast shooting .396 from the field and .525 from the line (the five isn't a typo). Just in case you thought that wasn't in significant minutes, he played 41.4 mpg that postsaeason. Oh... and Kidd was a year older than Rondo.

4. He led the Celtics in PER by a pretty wide margin.

5. He was 6th in total efficiency for the playoffs. The 5 ahead of him were LeBron, Dirk, Dwight , Kobe, and Boozer.

6. He was "burned" by Alston to the tune of .333 shooting with Alston scoring his fewest ppg game in any of his four rounds, and also turning the ball over more than he did in any other round. Yep, Rondo really struggled playing him, despite the fact that it was primarily Rondo, himself, who was doubling Dwight Howard because we couldn't afford to have any of of our bigs get into foul trouble.

7. He had as many rebounds, by himself, as Paul and Ray had collectively (136). They are considered good rebounders for their positions.

8. He averaged 4.1 more rebounds per game than Big Baby.... who is a power forward.

9. He led the team in minutes per game because, in reality, things were generally VERY bad when he was OFF the court.

10. He had 3 more turnovers for the playoffs than Derrick Rose,.... and 92 more assists.

The fact of the matter was that Rondo was the team's best player in the playoffs. It wasn't even close. The reason for that is actually quite simple: Rondo is now the team's best player. That is why the team rides so much on how well he is playing. If he is on, they can hang with anyone.... even with a vastly depleted bench, missing a first ballot hall of famer in Garnett, and with Paul and Ray running on fumes. If he is off they are in trouble more often than not.

But hey, if you want to buy into the whole "Rondo held us back" fantasy, go right on ahead and believe that. As Candice Bergen and Gilda Radner once said on SNL: "It is your Constitutional right to be a complete idiot."

The trade talk is fine IMO because you always have to explore your options and we do not know what the plans are 1 or 2 years from now ect.. You are right though about Rondo, unfortunately the haters see what they want to see. Obviously you can find faults with Paul Pierce's game, Allen, Garnett, ect but for some reason Rondo (a 23 yr old 3rd year player) gets the bulk of the blame - oh well. Like I have said before it really does not surprise me given many of these same characters use to praise Gerald Green while bashing Paul Pierce several years back. This board was filled with "trade Paul Pierce" threads for a long time and the hate was strong. Now it's Rondo's turn. Must mean the kid is bound for the HOF.

Good post GreenDreamer.

pac213up wrote:The trade talk is fine IMO because you always have to explore your options and we do not know what the plans are 1 or 2 years from now ect.. You are right though about Rondo, unfortunately the haters see what they want to see. Obviously you can find faults with Paul Pierce's game, Allen, Garnett, ect but for some reason Rondo (a 23 yr old 3rd year player) gets the bulk of the blame - oh well. Like I have said before it really does not surprise me given many of these same characters use to praise Gerald Green while bashing Paul Pierce several years back. This board was filled with "trade Paul Pierce" threads for a long time and the hate was strong. Now it's Rondo's turn. Must mean the kid is bound for the HOF.

Good point regarding Paul. I remember Peter May's brilliant idea in the Globe about trading Paul for Jamaal Magloire, with Magloire as the primary target. Yep, that would have been a real steal there.

I think it is pretty basic.... most people just don't understand the game, specifically the NBA game. Take Rondo's defense, for example. Here's a few things which seemingly escape the people I'm referring to:

1. Rondo is rarely attacked on "mismatches". You just don't see it. Why? Rondo is a freakishly gifted defender who quite frankly scares the hell out of people slower and bigger than him when they are further than 5 feet away from the basket. He is also exceptionally good at denying the ball when he has to pick up a big man on a switch. Many times in the Magic series Rondo had to pick up Dwight Howard or Rashard Lewis in the post, and the Magic couldn't get the ball into the them. Not only did Rajon front them effectively, but he took them off the angle that would have allowd a lob pass over the top. That isn't normal. Is this stuff noticed by his critics? Nope.

2. With the hand check rules being the way that they are, EVERYONE gets beaten from time to time on the perimeter. That is just the way that it is. It doesn't matter how good you are defensively, you are going to be got every now and then. What matters is that you keep that to a minimum and that you don't get yourself into foul trouble in the process.

3. When a pick is being set on you and your teammate who is gurding the picksetter doesn't step up in time to cut off the ball handler, that is not a "blow by". The Magic and Bulls repeatedly picked on Big Baby to this effect. The Bulls in particular were setting double picks which would force Big Baby to show twice, and quite often he was just too slow to get to the second pick in time., as the Celtics like to keep Perk near the basket and use a "rover". Whne Veal was out there, these issues magically disappeared. People missed that stuff too. That wasn't a hologram of Dwight Howard setting those picks (which were usually illegal anyways), and Rondo isn't going to pass through as if he isn't there. Sometimes Big Bay wouldn't show at all, which makes it essentially a two on one play. Play a game of two on one against your buddies soemtime, with one of them setting picks on you and see how easy it is to stop a guy from getting what he wants in that scenario.

4. Rondo is a like a sht down corner in our zone defense. He takes out a huge chunk of the floor into which the other team just won't pass into. Why/ Well, they just aren't interested in padding his steal stats.

5. Rondo si extraordinary at doubling down on post players and still getting out on perimeter players. He covers a lot of ground in this. It is one of the reasons that he is sucj a prolific rebounder, as he is able to stay closer to the basket than your average point guard.

People see the obvious stuff, but this stuff matters a lot.

. He scored scored 16.9 ppg shooting .417 from the field. Chris Paul scored 16.6 shooting .411 and Deron Williams scored 20.2 shooting .414. Their TS% was better, but not a ton better. Call me crazy, but aren't those two widely considered "the best"?

The problem for Rondo is none of the trifecta of the great young PGs took their team anywhere. That's a preview of the future if you overpay for a PG to the cost of signing players that bring better value.

I don't think anyone has a problem with keeping Rondo on at his current salary. it just those pretty numbers make him a risk to resign.

The other thing (and I just posted this on a different thread as well) is that stats on the defensive side are extremely high. Defensive win share (basically measures points against) is 3rd best behind only Howard & James and his defensive rating is 10th best (1st amongst all guards). Yet you will still have people on this board suggest Rondo is an overrated defender Can he do better and be more consistent - of course but what player can't you say that about besides Garnett maybe.

GuyClinch wrote:

. He scored scored 16.9 ppg shooting .417 from the field. Chris Paul scored 16.6 shooting .411 and Deron Williams scored 20.2 shooting .414. Their TS% was better, but not a ton better. Call me crazy, but aren't those two widely considered "the best"?

The problem for Rondo is none of the trifecta of the great young PGs took their team anywhere. That's a preview of the future if you overpay for a PG to the cost of signing players that bring better value.

I don't think anyone has a problem with keeping Rondo on at his current salary. it just those pretty numbers make him a risk to resign.

With any player you need to put the right players around them. Last time I checked Garnett was not winning anything without Pierce, Allen, and Rondo on his side. The Hornets have no bench and one other above average player in West. Utah was not much better.

pac213up wrote:The other thing (and I just posted this on a different thread as well) is that stats on the defensive side are extremely high. Defensive win share (basically measures points against) is 3rd best behind only Howard & James and his defensive rating is 10th best (1st amongst all guards). Yet you will still have people on this board suggest Rondo is an overrated defender Can he do better and be more consistent - of course but what player can't you say that about besides Garnett maybe.

I love basketball-reference.com too. Great site. That's the second year in a row that he has finihsed in the top 10 in both categories, and the list of guards who have pulled that trick off is a very short one, and I'm including shooting guards in that statement too. I think the only other point guard to do it in the last deceade plus was Jason Kidd... but Rondo is supposedly overhyped.

GreenDreamer wrote:

pac213up wrote:The trade talk is fine IMO because you always have to explore your options and we do not know what the plans are 1 or 2 years from now ect.. You are right though about Rondo, unfortunately the haters see what they want to see. Obviously you can find faults with Paul Pierce's game, Allen, Garnett, ect but for some reason Rondo (a 23 yr old 3rd year player) gets the bulk of the blame - oh well. Like I have said before it really does not surprise me given many of these same characters use to praise Gerald Green while bashing Paul Pierce several years back. This board was filled with "trade Paul Pierce" threads for a long time and the hate was strong. Now it's Rondo's turn. Must mean the kid is bound for the HOF.

Good point regarding Paul. I remember Peter May's brilliant idea in the Globe about trading Paul for Jamaal Magloire, with Magloire as the primary target. Yep, that would have been a real steal there.

I think it is pretty basic.... most people just don't understand the game, specifically the NBA game. Take Rondo's defense, for example. Here's a few things which seemingly escape the people I'm referring to:

1. Rondo is rarely attacked on "mismatches". You just don't see it. Why? Rondo is a freakishly gifted defender who quite frankly scares the hell out of people slower and bigger than him when they are further than 5 feet away from the basket. He is also exceptionally good at denying the ball when he has to pick up a big man on a switch. Many times in the Magic series Rondo had to pick up Dwight Howard or Rashard Lewis in the post, and the Magic couldn't get the ball into the them. Not only did Rajon front them effectively, but he took them off the angle that would have allowd a lob pass over the top. That isn't normal. Is this stuff noticed by his critics? Nope.

2. With the hand check rules being the way that they are, EVERYONE gets beaten from time to time on the perimeter. That is just the way that it is. It doesn't matter how good you are defensively, you are going to be got every now and then. What matters is that you keep that to a minimum and that you don't get yourself into foul trouble in the process.

3. When a pick is being set on you and your teammate who is gurding the picksetter doesn't step up in time to cut off the ball handler, that is not a "blow by". The Magic and Bulls repeatedly picked on Big Baby to this effect. The Bulls in particular were setting double picks which would force Big Baby to show twice, and quite often he was just too slow to get to the second pick in time., as the Celtics like to keep Perk near the basket and use a "rover". Whne Veal was out there, these issues magically disappeared. People missed that stuff too. That wasn't a hologram of Dwight Howard setting those picks (which were usually illegal anyways), and Rondo isn't going to pass through as if he isn't there. Sometimes Big Bay wouldn't show at all, which makes it essentially a two on one play. Play a game of two on one against your buddies soemtime, with one of them setting picks on you and see how easy it is to stop a guy from getting what he wants in that scenario.

4. Rondo is a like a sht down corner in our zone defense. He takes out a huge chunk of the floor into which the other team just won't pass into. Why/ Well, they just aren't interested in padding his steal stats.

5. Rondo si extraordinary at doubling down on post players and still getting out on perimeter players. He covers a lot of ground in this. It is one of the reasons that he is sucj a prolific rebounder, as he is able to stay closer to the basket than your average point guard.

People see the obvious stuff, but this stuff matters a lot.

Question.... Don't you think Danny sees all this "Obvious Stuff"?
Question.... Why is Danny putting Rondo on the trading block ?

With any player you need to put the right players around them. Last time I checked Garnett was not winning anything without Pierce, Allen, and Rondo on his side. The Hornets have no bench and one other above average player in West. Utah was not much better.

I don't think the value is there at 10 or 12 million dollars per. Obviously he can win with right guys around him - so can Derek Fisher.

Kefa461 wrote:

GreenDreamer wrote:

pac213up wrote:The trade talk is fine IMO because you always have to explore your options and we do not know what the plans are 1 or 2 years from now ect.. You are right though about Rondo, unfortunately the haters see what they want to see. Obviously you can find faults with Paul Pierce's game, Allen, Garnett, ect but for some reason Rondo (a 23 yr old 3rd year player) gets the bulk of the blame - oh well. Like I have said before it really does not surprise me given many of these same characters use to praise Gerald Green while bashing Paul Pierce several years back. This board was filled with "trade Paul Pierce" threads for a long time and the hate was strong. Now it's Rondo's turn. Must mean the kid is bound for the HOF.

Good point regarding Paul. I remember Peter May's brilliant idea in the Globe about trading Paul for Jamaal Magloire, with Magloire as the primary target. Yep, that would have been a real steal there.

I think it is pretty basic.... most people just don't understand the game, specifically the NBA game. Take Rondo's defense, for example. Here's a few things which seemingly escape the people I'm referring to:

1. Rondo is rarely attacked on "mismatches". You just don't see it. Why? Rondo is a freakishly gifted defender who quite frankly scares the hell out of people slower and bigger than him when they are further than 5 feet away from the basket. He is also exceptionally good at denying the ball when he has to pick up a big man on a switch. Many times in the Magic series Rondo had to pick up Dwight Howard or Rashard Lewis in the post, and the Magic couldn't get the ball into the them. Not only did Rajon front them effectively, but he took them off the angle that would have allowd a lob pass over the top. That isn't normal. Is this stuff noticed by his critics? Nope.

2. With the hand check rules being the way that they are, EVERYONE gets beaten from time to time on the perimeter. That is just the way that it is. It doesn't matter how good you are defensively, you are going to be got every now and then. What matters is that you keep that to a minimum and that you don't get yourself into foul trouble in the process.

3. When a pick is being set on you and your teammate who is gurding the picksetter doesn't step up in time to cut off the ball handler, that is not a "blow by". The Magic and Bulls repeatedly picked on Big Baby to this effect. The Bulls in particular were setting double picks which would force Big Baby to show twice, and quite often he was just too slow to get to the second pick in time., as the Celtics like to keep Perk near the basket and use a "rover". Whne Veal was out there, these issues magically disappeared. People missed that stuff too. That wasn't a hologram of Dwight Howard setting those picks (which were usually illegal anyways), and Rondo isn't going to pass through as if he isn't there. Sometimes Big Bay wouldn't show at all, which makes it essentially a two on one play. Play a game of two on one against your buddies soemtime, with one of them setting picks on you and see how easy it is to stop a guy from getting what he wants in that scenario.

4. Rondo is a like a sht down corner in our zone defense. He takes out a huge chunk of the floor into which the other team just won't pass into. Why/ Well, they just aren't interested in padding his steal stats.

5. Rondo si extraordinary at doubling down on post players and still getting out on perimeter players. He covers a lot of ground in this. It is one of the reasons that he is sucj a prolific rebounder, as he is able to stay closer to the basket than your average point guard.

People see the obvious stuff, but this stuff matters a lot.

Question.... Don't you think Danny sees all this "Obvious Stuff"?
Question.... Why is Danny putting Rondo on the trading block ?

I think that Rondo doesn't get along with Doc, despite his public stance to the contrary. I don't blame him, either. Doc's offense is exteremely unfriendly to Rondo.

1. Doc doesn't like setting picks for him, which is idiotic.

2. There is no emphasis on getting the ball back in quickly on made baskets so that Rondo can counterbreak.

3.We run a lot of predictable, one option plays designed to get Paul or Ray the ball, where the "secondary option" is basically Rondo passing the ball off to someone else on a basic step out.

4. The off the ball movement in our offense is pathetic. For example,Paul didn't start cutting the basket, off the ball, when Rondo was driving until Game 6 against Orlando. Ray didn't start doing it until a few games earlier. This is basic basketball stuff which most teams run as a matter of course,, but we weren't doing it at all.

5. There is no emphasis on having guys get out on the break ahead of Rajon. Hell, how many times have you seen him have to wave his hands at guys telling them to get down the court in OBVIOUS fastbreak situations. People don't fill their lanes right and his star slashing wing seemingly wants to be the last guy down the court on most of them. Sometimes I wonder if Paul's nickname shounld be the "The Trailer" instead of "Tehe Truth".

6. Evidently Perk is contractually exempt from having to keep his hands up, ready to recieve a pass, if he "expects" Rondo to do something else. If Rajon throws him a lob pass, he just looks at it, and makes no attempt to go get it. Perk is developing a nice low post game, and is good at getting offensive putbacks, but his awareness and readiness on "bang-bang" plays is simply awful. He doesn't look to improve his position and routinely takes his eye off of Rajon when he expects him to shoot the ball. That is something that got beaten out of me by my junior high school coach. He does this to Paul as well, by the way. Just ask yourself how many times you have seen Rondo throw Perk a straight pass. He almost always throws him a bounce pass because he has no confidence that Perk will catch it otherwise. Yet Doc tolerates this.

7. Instead of establishing Rondo's scoring game early on, Doc usually runs stuff for everyone else for the first 6 minutes (at least) of the first quarter. After that Rondo can fit in where he can.

8. Doc likes to take the ball out of his hands and have inferior ball handlers and passers handle it. Do you realize that we turned the ball over almost as much this season as we did in the Quest for Oden season? That we actually turned the ball over less AFTER K.G. went down, and that was simply because Rondo got to handle it more? Doc used to whine about not having enough vets to effectively run his offense. Well, he has three HOFers and a great point guard, and we STILL bleed them. Maybe it isn't the players, but the moronic offense which causes them. Eh?

9. I also think that he's pretty frustrated with the personnel. He doesn't have the finishers to work with that many other point guards have, especially with K.G. out. Paul is not a finisher for Rondo. Paul likes to dribble the ball around before he shoots it, and will routinely turn down the open look that Rondo gives him to create one of his own. Ray is great target for Rajon, but stritcly as a jump sooter. He had the best chemistry with Kevin, K.G. was a target for jumpers, dunks and ran the floor hard. For the most part the rest of the roster, apart from Scal, weren't that great for the kid. I think that it says a lot that Brian was a better target for Rajon than almost anyone else.

All those stats are great, but none of those stats measures how Pierce's offensive efficiency was effected by having to deal with an extra defender given to him by Rondo.

So he has some good stats, is he supposed to be untouchable because of that?

I don't think anyone is implying he should just be thrown away, but he's one of the few assets the Celtics have that could generate a return. There is more than one way to build a roster, and as many have indicated there is a pretty strong case to be made that your PG doesn't have to be your best player for the team to be good. Anyone shortlist Fisher or Alston as finals MVP?

I have no issue with Rondo being traded, and he's my favorite Celtic. He replaced Al Jefferson as my favorite Celtic, I managed to get over seeing him leave. If it comes to it, I'm sure I can deal with Rondo being moved if it's going to improve the Celtics.

The team isn't built around Rondo

GreenDreamer..............

I agree with every word you wrote......the most important part is he and Doc are not on the same page.
Finally someone has said it.

IMHO is another point......everything else can be washed away with the title we won but that can't and another point is Danny and Rondo do not see eye to eye either.

Dave_From_NB wrote:So he has some good stats, is he supposed to be untouchable because of that?

I don't think anyone is implying he should just be thrown away, but he's one of the few assets the Celtics have that could generate a return. There is more than one way to build a roster, and as many have indicated there is a pretty strong case to be made that your PG doesn't have to be your best player for the team to be good. Anyone shortlist Fisher or Alston as finals MVP?

I have no issue with Rondo being traded, and he's my favorite Celtic. He replaced Al Jefferson as my favorite Celtic, I managed to get over seeing him leave. If it comes to it, I'm sure I can deal with Rondo being moved if it's going to improve the Celtics.

The problem is that you don't improve your team by moving your best player, and that is exactly what Rondo is. He isn't just putting up nice stats, he is the guy who makes the whole thing go. We should have been dead meat when K.G. went down, but that isn't what happened.

That Chicago team was no joke, either. A clear case of a team's record being deceiving - Rose was a much better player at the end of the season than at the beginning, and that kid is very talented. The same is true of Tyrus Thomas. Hinrich missed most of the first half of the season. Noah finally found himself. The trade addressed two huge areas of need, and they managed to ship out guys who were underperforming and got guys who played very well for them. If they had that group the whole season they would have been around a 50 win team, as was evidenced by threir strong finish of the season and tough showing in the playoffs. We then took a team which nearly swept the Cavaliers to the wire. We did that despite a thin bench, missing much of our size and the ultimate reality that both Paul and Ray were playing with debilitating injuries. We should have been an easy mark, but almost pulled it off anyways.
Rondo was the difference maker. Was he perfect? Far from it, but he was better than anyone else. I'm just wondering who was going to put those stats up if he didn't do it.

The problem is that you don't improve your team by moving your best player, and that is exactly what Rondo is. He isn't just putting up nice stats, he is the guy who makes the whole thing go. We should have been dead meat when K.G. went down, but that isn't what happened.

He isn't even the C's third best player with KG healthy. Basketball is a fundamentally offensive game. You have to put the ball into the basket. Even when you defend well its not an automatic point for your side. So a player unable to shoot is something of a liability. The fact that you think he is better then three other all-stars on the squad is odd.

Maybe you need another statistical 'refresher"

2-8
2-12
7-19
7-17
8-15
3-12
8-19
4-10

What are those numbers? Rondo's shooting numbers for the last 8 games played. its not like he is lifted by three point shooter or foul shooting like other stars either. Nor was he attempting to fight off double and triple coverage like the other PG's in your comparison.

There is a reason people like scorers - you got to score to win. It sounds like stating the obvious but I guess for some people it isnt. If Rondo can't score with minimal defensive focus he sure wasn't making the other players better..so don't even go there.

This as Doc indicates is why Rajon isn't an all-star and earns scorn from players like Tony Parker. He is a flawed player. You can't be flawed at the most basic skill of the game and be the best player ona championship quality team.

Rondo is the best can't shoot PG since JKidd sure. But he is still a CANT SHOOT PG. Don't lose sight of that and imagine he is the best player on the team. <g>

This concidentallly is why guys like Ray Allen are all-stars and Eddie House is a rotation guy. Eddie does one thing very well - shoot. Ray Allen does mutiple things decently and is a great shooter.

Your getting way carried away with the Rondo love. Let's be honest Doc Rivers knows more about NBA basketball then anyone on this board. He is an excellent coach, and can't shoot PGs are not the best players on championship teams. Just stop with the sillyness.

Hubie Brown once explained how all-stars are players that are GOOD to GREAT at EVERY SINGLE aspect of basketball (for their position). KG for example he rebounds well. He passes well. He handles the ball well. He shoots well. This is why he is a an MVP type. It's the same with Pierce and Ray Allen. They just do everything good to great on the basketball court.

Real all-stars are complete players. You get a team of players like that and your team becomes unstoppable. Anything the opponent does has an instant counter. Double KG - he passes out. Double Paul he passes to an open Ray Allen etc etc. Rondo gives the opponents a counter with no easy way to deal with it.

Your getting lost in statisitcal mumbo jumbo. Who cares if your PG racks up rebounds. You know what that really means? You should improve your front line. Which is something Danny said he intends to do.

Pete

I just checked out 82games.com, and they have their Roland ratings up for the playoffs... at least until May 31st. Here's the Celtics page.

http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/0809BOS.HTM

Rondo isn't just on top for his PER (stats) he is on top because of his oncourt off court influence, which is just silly. To put some perspective into that effect, here's the overall list

http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/playoffs.htm

Who is relying on who?

Love your post, GreenDreamer. I might add that in the games Rondo didn't play this year, the Celtics' offense was so bad , the game was almost unwatchable.

GuyClinch wrote:

The problem is that you don't improve your team by moving your best player, and that is exactly what Rondo is. He isn't just putting up nice stats, he is the guy who makes the whole thing go. We should have been dead meat when K.G. went down, but that isn't what happened.

He isn't even the C's third best player with KG healthy. Basketball is a fundamentally offensive game. You have to put the ball into the basket. Even when you defend well its not an automatic point for your side. So a player unable to shoot is something of a liability. The fact that you think he is better then three other all-stars on the squad is odd.

Maybe you need another statistical 'refresher"

2-8
2-12
7-19
7-17
8-15
3-12
8-19
4-10

What are those numbers? Rondo's shooting numbers for the last 8 games played. its not like he is lifted by three point shooter or foul shooting like other stars either. Nor was he attempting to fight off double and triple coverage like the other PG's in your comparison.

There is a reason people like scorers - you got to score to win. It sounds like stating the obvious but I guess for some people it isnt. If Rondo can't score with minimal defensive focus he sure wasn't making the other players better..so don't even go there.

This as Doc indicates is why Rajon isn't an all-star and earns scorn from players like Tony Parker. He is a flawed player. You can't be flawed at the most basic skill of the game and be the best player ona championship quality team.

Rondo is the best can't shoot PG since JKidd sure. But he is still a CANT SHOOT PG. Don't lose sight of that and imagine he is the best player on the team. <g>

This concidentallly is why guys like Ray Allen are all-stars and Eddie House is a rotation guy. Eddie does one thing very well - shoot. Ray Allen does mutiple things decently and is a great shooter.

Your getting way carried away with the Rondo love. Let's be honest Doc Rivers knows more about NBA basketball then anyone on this board. He is an excellent coach, and can't shoot PGs are not the best players on championship teams. Just stop with the sillyness.

Hubie Brown once explained how all-stars are players that are GOOD to GREAT at EVERY SINGLE aspect of basketball (for their position). KG for example he rebounds well. He passes well. He handles the ball well. He shoots well. This is why he is a an MVP type. It's the same with Pierce and Ray Allen. They just do everything good to great on the basketball court.

Real all-stars are complete players. You get a team of players like that and your team becomes unstoppable. Anything the opponent does has an instant counter. Double KG - he passes out. Double Paul he passes to an open Ray Allen etc etc. Rondo gives the opponents a counter with no easy way to deal with it.

Your getting lost in statisitcal mumbo jumbo. Who cares if your PG racks up rebounds. You know what that really means? You should improve your front line. Which is something Danny said he intends to do.

Pete

http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/playoffs.htm

http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/0809BOS.HTM


When your team is getting outscored by 16.6 points per 48 minutes when you are off the floor, that means that you are EXTREMELY important. That's why I love the 82games.com stats. They take the whole "opinion" thing out of it with regards to winning. Rondo played the most minutes, and his absence, hurt the team the most. They were not better with him out of the game. In fact is EXTREMELY obvious that they desperately needed him. That he was the MAIN difference between playing winning basketball and losing basketball.. Big Baby has a nice rating as well, which is doubtless because the team was better with him out there than with him out, and he played a lot with Rajon, BUT the key stat is OFF COURT, because that tells the story of what was happening out there when the guy was sitting on the bench. In Rondo's case it was an unmitigated disaster.

Just in case you thought this was accidental, you will see that in the case of everey playoff team, except the Magic, the best player on the team was the one who lead the team in this stat. So, I'm just wondering, who else was going to carry the Celtics around on his back in the way that Rondo did? Seriously, who was not only going to put up "stats", but also be the singular difference between winning and getting annihilated? That's exactly what happened when Rondo was off the floor - annihilation.