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How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason

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How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#1 » by Gant » Tue Jul 7, 2009 6:26 pm

There are a few different threads asking the question of whether the Celtics can be major players in next year's freeagentstravaganza. Wyc has said yes. Danny has said yes. And yes the answer is: Yes.

First off, quit peering at hoopshype trying to figure out how Boston can get that far under the cap. Realistically they can't. THAT ISN'T THE PLAN.

There are many teams scurrying to clear cap space to sign one or even two max free agents. The Celtics are not one of them. Instead...

...The plan is for a sign and trade.

The NBA has given teams that already have pending max free agents an advantage: Those teams can offer more than anyone else. Over the life of a max value free agent contract a player can make 30 MILLION dollars more by staying rather than leaving. That's a lot of moolah.

But there is a way to leave AND get the extra 30 million. The sign and trade.

Let's use Dwyane Wade as an example. Wade wants to win another title. Miami probably is not the best place for him to do that. Pat Riley offers him the max. All the teams who have cleared cap space also offer him the max. Wade doesn't want to stay but he does want the extra money.

So how do the Celtics fit in?

The Celtics go to Wade and say, "We have Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, and Rajon Rondo. If you come here you can win the title this coming season. And we will sign and trade so you will make 30 MILLION MORE than the Knicks or Nets or anyone else is offering."

Wade says, "Hmm. I like that."

Wade's agent goes to Pat Riley and says, "Pat, Dwyane is leaving. He likes the Celtics. You can either sign and trade him and get assets back from Boston, or he just flat leaves for somewhere else and you get nothing."

Pat thinks hard about this and decides something is better than nothing.

The Celtics offer a package that includes player salaries up to the value of a single max player.

Miami gets players and maybe a draft pick or two. (It doesn't have to be an even talent for talent trade. It's an even dollar for dollar trade. Wade's leaving anyway so Miami has no leverage.)

It ends up like so: Boston gets Wade. Wade gets money and a ring. Miami gets some compensation. Everybody's happy, or in the the case of Pat Riley less unhappy than they might have been.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#2 » by MaxwellSmart » Tue Jul 7, 2009 6:33 pm

I think you're correct....I'm sure this is what Wyc was talking about---but Pat Reilly hates the Celtics, so maybe we should go after LeBron instead!
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#3 » by Gant » Tue Jul 7, 2009 6:38 pm

MaxwellSmart wrote:I think you're correct....I'm sure this is what Wyc was talking about---but Pat Reilly hates the Celtics, so maybe we should go after LeBron instead!


Pat doesn't get a choice. It's deal or no deal once Wade decides he likes a certain destination. Yeah, I'm sure the Celtics will try for LeBron as well.

The thing to look at is the all the short term contracts the Celtics have. One reason for this is to make for an appealing sign and trade deal. They can't be saddling anyone with long term debt and pull this off.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#4 » by sully00 » Tue Jul 7, 2009 6:43 pm

Take a look at Boston's roster we do not have the assets to entice Miami to do a S&T. They would just assume to tell Wade to kiss off and use the cap space to go sign or trade for someone else.


This is the balance Boston has yet to strike. Since making the moves to bring in Allen and KG, the focus has rightly been on winning a championship. But the result has left a roster barren of tradeable assets. To be fair some of that is the development of young players from attractive to essential.

While these deals are rarely fair value deals they do generally offer the team facilitating the deal something they want and somehow I don't think that is going to be a 34 year old Ray Allen on a huge contract.

A much better chance of this type of thing happening at the deadline if Miami is out of the hunt and Wade has told them he is gone. But then Boston has to risk the shakeup late in the season. My guess is that Miami would rather be done with Wade and having gotten something for him as opposed to spending 15 mil on salary to get a 1st round draft pick.

But not to rain on everyone's parade, Pat Riley is really good at this ****. He has a huge expiring contract he can deal at the deadline and almost nobody under contract for next season except Beasley, Dwayne Wade can pick his own team.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#5 » by ParticleMan » Tue Jul 7, 2009 6:43 pm

Thank you Gant for clearly explaining that.

This is definitely what the C's brass are referring to. There is no way we can sign a max FA outright.

it's not totally clear that Riley can't have an influence, though. he does have to OK the sign and trade, otherwise Wade can't come here even if it is his favorite destination. he could in theory simply refuse, and sabotage the whole thing for us. may not make the best business sense, but it's possible.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#6 » by Gant » Tue Jul 7, 2009 6:50 pm

sully00 wrote:Take a look at Boston's roster we do not have the assets to entice Miami to do a S&T. They would just assume to tell Wade to kiss off and use the cap space to go sign or trade for someone else.


This is the balance Boston has yet to strike. Since making the moves to bring in Allen and KG, the focus has rightly been on winning a championship. But the result has left a roster barren of tradeable assets. To be fair some of that is the development of young players from attractive to essential.

While these deals are rarely fair value deals they do generally offer the team facilitating the deal something they want and somehow I don't think that is going to be a 34 year old Ray Allen on a huge contract.

A much better chance of this type of thing happening at the deadline if Miami is out of the hunt and Wade has told them he is gone. But then Boston has to risk the shakeup late in the season. My guess is that Miami would rather be done with Wade and having gotten something for him as opposed to spending 15 mil on salary to get a 1st round draft pick.

But not to rain on everyone's parade, Pat Riley is really good at this ****. He has a huge expiring contract he can deal at the deadline and almost nobody under contract for next season except Beasley, Dwayne Wade can pick his own team.



That's the point, Wade and all the other big names get to pick their own teams. With some creativity the Celtics can put together a matching package. But Wade was just an example. I didn't mean for people to get bogged down with Pat Riley. There are lots of big free agents and lots of possibilities.

The Celtics will at least be free agent contenders, but a different sort of contender than all those teams that have struggled to open up cap space.

The thing to remember is some free agents are probably going to want championship contention as a priority in picking their destination. There aren't many teams that can offer that.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#7 » by TheOGJabroni » Tue Jul 7, 2009 6:55 pm

I can see what you're saying but I kind of agree with Sully. The assets we have would not be attractive enough to Miami to do a S&T. They may have no leverage in that situation, but if they do just let him walk, they will have a lot of capspace to use on a star player, rather than our junk expiring contracts, and late first round picks.

We can always hope though. Although I do hope this plan would be generated in 2011 with Kevin Durant. We can win two more championships with this core, just as KG has said. Then we can do this S&T idea with OKC, or depending on our capspace, sign him outright. Danny Ainge definitely loves this kid.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#8 » by Gant » Tue Jul 7, 2009 7:05 pm

bosFcelts wrote:I can see what you're saying but I kind of agree with Sully. The assets we have would not be attractive enough to Miami to do a S&T. They may have no leverage in that situation, but if they do just let him walk, they will have a lot of capspace to use on a star player, rather than our junk expiring contracts, and late first round picks.

We can always hope though. Although I do hope this plan would be generated in 2011 with Kevin Durant. We can win two more championships with this core, just as KG has said. Then we can do this S&T idea with OKC, or depending on our capspace, sign him outright. Danny Ainge definitely loves this kid.



I agree that it won't be easy. But there's a compromise between giving them junk and giving them enough to make it worth delaying their cap space for one year. I don't know enough to guess what the package might look like but if the Celtics give one good name up, the other team could decide that's adequate.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#9 » by 7seventynine9 » Tue Jul 7, 2009 8:37 pm

Pat Riley does have a choice. He could just refuse to do a sign and trade and get nothing back. That way Wade doesnt go to the Celtics and ends up on some other team.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#10 » by Hemingway » Tue Jul 7, 2009 8:43 pm

we need to acquire more assets on short cheap contracts. We don't have any more Gomes or Wests to trade. I think a deal based around Ray could work but there probably needs to be more incentive.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#11 » by CelticFaninLBC » Tue Jul 7, 2009 8:56 pm

Boston either offers Perk or Rondo or Riley tells them to forget it. Why does Miami want to add about $14 million of payroll just so they can get the 30th pick? That's one highly paid rookie.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#12 » by Fencer reregistered » Tue Jul 7, 2009 9:25 pm

CelticFaninLBC wrote:Boston either offers Perk or Rondo or Riley tells them to forget it. Why does Miami want to add about $14 million of payroll just so they can get the 30th pick? That's one highly paid rookie.


Exactly.

But looking at Hoopshype, it would take a lot of creativity even for a sign-and-trade ...
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#13 » by shackles10 » Tue Jul 7, 2009 9:32 pm

The leverage Riley has is that if he doesn't want the Celtics bag of garbage he is still the option that can pay Wade the most money. So he can say there's no deal I want with the Celtics, but I can pay you the most money to stay here. At that point Wade can say how he wants to come here all he wants, but his options then becoming going to another city for less overall money or staying in Miami for the most money. There is no real reason for us to stay in the discussion very long if we really have nothing to offer the Heat.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#14 » by sully00 » Tue Jul 7, 2009 9:33 pm

Gant wrote:
bosFcelts wrote:I can see what you're saying but I kind of agree with Sully. The assets we have would not be attractive enough to Miami to do a S&T. They may have no leverage in that situation, but if they do just let him walk, they will have a lot of capspace to use on a star player, rather than our junk expiring contracts, and late first round picks.

We can always hope though. Although I do hope this plan would be generated in 2011 with Kevin Durant. We can win two more championships with this core, just as KG has said. Then we can do this S&T idea with OKC, or depending on our capspace, sign him outright. Danny Ainge definitely loves this kid.



I agree that it won't be easy. But there's a compromise between giving them junk and giving them enough to make it worth delaying their cap space for one year. I don't know enough to guess what the package might look like but if the Celtics give one good name up, the other team could decide that's adequate.


Yeah I don't think there is. Take a look at this and understand how many teams are under the cap and how many free agents there are next season.

http://www.storytellerscontracts.info/r ... laries.htm

Boston doesn't have the available contracts to do a S&T. Creating cap space was an option they were keeping open and instead they went with the 10 mil player for 5 mil with Sheed and focused on winning now.

All is not lost, because this whole everyone getting under the cap and then looking to give max deals to the top 5 -10 availble guys is going to cause the availble money to dry up. This has already started as guys are being forced into the 5-8 mil range.

I think Boston will have options this offseason and at the deadline to make a deal for a super star player using Ray's contract and whether they would or should will be the question. But I don't see teams in a sea of FA and economic uncertainty faced with the choice of letting their guy walk and going in another direction or taking on 15 mil in salary to get something for him taking the latter. There just going to tell their guy to not let the door hit them in the ass on the way out and get the satisfaction of knowing he had to take less to leave.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#15 » by CelticFaninLBC » Tue Jul 7, 2009 9:35 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
CelticFaninLBC wrote:Boston either offers Perk or Rondo or Riley tells them to forget it. Why does Miami want to add about $14 million of payroll just so they can get the 30th pick? That's one highly paid rookie.


Exactly.

But looking at Hoopshype, it would take a lot of creativity even for a sign-and-trade ...


Rondo would probably have to be starting his extension to make the money work. As you said, there's few contracts. Doubtful they could even send them Perkins, and exclude Rondo, as there's not enough contracts to make up the difference. Unless you deal Sheed, PP or KG, or talk Ray into a sign n trade.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#16 » by Gant » Tue Jul 7, 2009 9:40 pm

There's a long time between now and next summer. We might be able to tell if the Celtics are heading in this direction depending on who they pick up, for how much, and how long.

They're not committed to this route, but are definitely thinking of it and have said as much.

They're looking generally for short contracts and movable talent, preferably both. The only exception would be a very talented guy- probably young enough so people wouldn't mind contractually locking him up for a while.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#17 » by chakdaddy » Tue Jul 7, 2009 10:13 pm

Gant wrote:Wade's agent goes to Pat Riley and says, "Pat, Dwyane is leaving. He likes the Celtics. You can either sign and trade him and get assets back from Boston, or he just flat leaves for somewhere else and you get nothing."
Miami gets players and maybe a draft pick or two. (It doesn't have to be an even talent for talent trade. It's an even dollar for dollar trade. Wade's leaving anyway so Miami has no leverage.)


I call B.S. Riley calls Wade's bluff and says "We want you to stay here. We can't help it if you want to go to a bad team with cap space, but if you want the highest salary possible, you have to stay with us."

Boston has no leverage in this situation because they have no way of getting Wade without help and, effectively, a big favor, from Miami.

Plus, Miami is a favorable destination for FA's with the weather and all. The chance to open up cap space and sign a different FA like Bosh or even LeBron after Wade leaves is probably better than whatever they'd get from us in a sign-and-trade.

Miami's choices in this situation:
1. Call Wade's bluff and maybe keep him, and if not sign a different FA.
2. Lose Wade and pay Ray or god knows what combination of guys the equivalent of a max salary; and get Bill Walker or a low draft pick or something thrown in.

This sign-and-trade for a max salary guy is a pipe dream. The only way we get a max salary guy is if he's overpaid and a team is trying to dump him.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#18 » by Fencer reregistered » Tue Jul 7, 2009 10:53 pm

CelticFaninLBC wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
CelticFaninLBC wrote:Boston either offers Perk or Rondo or Riley tells them to forget it. Why does Miami want to add about $14 million of payroll just so they can get the 30th pick? That's one highly paid rookie.


Exactly.

But looking at Hoopshype, it would take a lot of creativity even for a sign-and-trade ...


Rondo would probably have to be starting his extension to make the money work. As you said, there's few contracts. Doubtful they could even send them Perkins, and exclude Rondo, as there's not enough contracts to make up the difference. Unless you deal Sheed, PP or KG, or talk Ray into a sign n trade.


Base-Year Compensation rules make it hard to count Rondo at a high number.

I'll believe this is a real possibility only when somebody proposes some actual, plausible, CBA-compliant players and numbers.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#19 » by Fencer reregistered » Tue Jul 7, 2009 10:54 pm

chakdaddy wrote:

This sign-and-trade for a max salary guy is a pipe dream. The only way we get a max salary guy is if he's overpaid and a team is trying to dump him.


Right. Or at least locked up for some years -- it's not obvious Billups was overpaid when dumped.

What's worse, not many teams will be in dump mode, as most have already shed salaries in anticipation of 2010.
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Re: How the Celtics can get a major free agent next offseason 

Post#20 » by Gant » Tue Jul 7, 2009 11:27 pm

I'm just telling you what Danny said: They're looking at a sign and trade. The reason it could work is because it gives the free agent 30 million more than being under the cap.

This is from Ainge.

The other stuff is just me filling in the gaps. But the possibility is real.

As far as the example: Riley can call Wade's "bluff." But it's not a bluff. Wade in this scenario either signs with Boston, or leaves Miami for another team that has cleared cap space. Riley then either chooses to get something, or get nothing. But if Wade decides to leave he's gone either way.

You can change the name to LeBron or Bosh or someone else and the same circumstances apply. The key to it is a max free agent who is 100% set on leaving his current team.

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