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Fellas,

Let's look a little beyond the next two seasons. Don't get me wrong, I'm super excited about this season but I also want my favorite team to be competitive in the next decade.

I think Ray Allen will still be here, granted it will be at a discounted price but I think he will be around because he loves being here and he loves his teammates. I think the same thing needs to happen for Pierce and Garnett if they wish to continue playing but still giving the team a chance to bring younger super talent.

My biggest question is Rondo. Will he still be here in 2 years? I honestly don't think so. I think in order for the team to be successful in the future they will need to trade him for another important skilled position player. Perhaps a young PF stud just coming into his own (an Al Jefferson type when traded for garnett) or a SF (Joe Johnson before he signed with Atlanta). I don't think it's possible to win a championship when the best player and max player is the PG. The spurs won with T.PArker but he wasn't the best player nor the max player. C Billups was arguably the best player on the Pistons team but he wasn't a max player. Rondo will want to command a max contract but I don't think it will happen with the Celts. You can still win a championship with a descent PG, but you can't win championsip with only descent big men. You have to have great talent at the 3,4 and/or 5 in order to win IMO. I think Rondo will be traded for a young upcoming stud and possibly a pick.

As for the rest of the team, i'm hoping Walker and/or Giddens develop into good players. I like Hudson, i think he might be better than Walker and Giddens. TA is a goner, Scal will be gone, Perk will be Perk, Big baby will be traded next year for a pic. I'm hoping they swing a longer term signing for Daniels. Sheed will be gone.

What are ya'll thoughts?

Young stars are not traded at a discount, Joe Johnson who was a restricted FA cost the Hawks a package that ended up being Boris Diaw, Rajon Rondo, and Robin Lopez.

Trading young proven players for older proven players is just going to close the door on this team.

There are always options for a team willing to spend money to add an expensive player heading towards 30 and I think that is Boston's best path at this point. Similar to what SA did this offseason if you have an aging cast, sure you can shop them around but in the end the best thing is to take on a contract like Richard Jefferson and hope he meshes with what you are doing.

If you want to rebuild go young, if you want to contend you reload with guys in their prime and keep as many of the young legs as you can develop around.

The hard part for Boston to make a move of significance they have to move either one of the 3 stars or one of the 2 young starters they have developed because you can only start 5 guys, that is why Wallace, who is here for 3 years was so important.

Obviously every true big time star that becomes available will somehow be connected to Boston with Ray's contract and Rondo and Perk's ability. But outside of a deal that lands Chris Paul I don't see a situation were Ainge would move Rondo and Perk.

the big 3 are only good to go for a few more years.. before they aren't athletic enough to match up against younger teams.. oh well.. and they don't have enough young talent to make up for the age gap.. hello lottery!

I think Rondo gets moved next year. I don't think Danny/Coaching staff entirely likes his attitude or how he represents the team. Things like showing up late or not practicing his J's bother the staff - this combined with his high contract demands makes him very likely to be moved.

sully00 wrote:Young stars are not traded at a discount, Joe Johnson who was a restricted FA cost the Hawks a package that ended up being Boris Diaw, Rajon Rondo, and Robin Lopez.

Trading young proven players for older proven players is just going to close the door on this team.

There are always options for a team willing to spend money to add an expensive player heading towards 30 and I think that is Boston's best path at this point. Similar to what SA did this offseason if you have an aging cast, sure you can shop them around but in the end the best thing is to take on a contract like Richard Jefferson and hope he meshes with what you are doing.

If you want to rebuild go young, if you want to contend you reload with guys in their prime and keep as many of the young legs as you can develop around.

The hard part for Boston to make a move of significance they have to move either one of the 3 stars or one of the 2 young starters they have developed because you can only start 5 guys, that is why Wallace, who is here for 3 years was so important.


Obviously every true big time star that becomes available will somehow be connected to Boston with Ray's contract and Rondo and Perk's ability. But outside of a deal that lands Chris Paul I don't see a situation were Ainge would move Rondo and Perk.

Sully I hear what you are saying but I'm not saying trade Rondo for additional older veterans. I'm thinking outside this season and possibly next season. Ray's contract is up after this season. Does he sign for a far lesser contract in order to remain with the Celts? He has to if he wants to stay here. In doing so it gives the Celts a little extra wiggle room since his $19+ million come off the books. Does Pierce exercise his player option, perhaps, or perhaps he'll want to extend his contract and get a little more, and perhaps the Celts can discount him a little the following years. Garnett is signed through 2012 and you cannot alter his contract. Then you have Rondo, who will want big money. Celts can afford him or even possibly his ego, which could get bigger this year. Can you package him in a trade for 2 year PF/SF stud? absolutely...who wouldn't want an established 4 year PG that has proved himself with the likes of Pierce, Allen and Garnett. So you trade him for a young SF and/or PF stud and have Garnett or Pierce groom him for a year or two. Rasheed comes off the books in 3 years. You can trade Big Baby next off season for a decent draft pic, possibly a middle to late first rounder to a team whose on the verge of contending and you hope for one of your young players to emerge (maybe Walker or Hudson). Oh and in the mean time since some of those big numbers have come off the books so you can go get a savy PG who's not gonna cost you $12 million a year....and can do the job just as good. After all PG's number one option is too pass first.

Next off season will be an important off season for Ainge....for their "future" as well as to stay competetive, BUT you don't want old legs on big money because other wise you've got your original big 3 all over again.

GuyClinch wrote:I think Rondo gets moved next year. I don't think Danny/Coaching staff entirely likes his attitude or how he represents the team. Things like showing up late or not practicing his J's bother the staff - this combined with his high contract demands makes him very likely to be moved.

The progression we're witness to vis a vis Rondo and Cs suggests that Doc will continue to heap on Rondo more and more of the offensive responsibility, putting the ball more and more in his hands (and taking less playmaking pressure off Ray/Paul), and slowly but surely building the team around HIM. The signings of Wallace and Baby show a willingness to go more and more towards a penetration-and-kick-centered offense, while the lack of a viable backup point guard suggests that Danny/Doc envision Rondo sticking around for awhile. Other than the media rumblings orchestrated by Danny as an early negotiating ploy, ALL SIGNS point to Rondo being a Celtic for a long time.

Personally, I think Rondo goes down as one of the best point guards in NBA and Celtic history and gets up into the Paul/Williams range of greatness in 09-10. It's paramount we extend him this offseason in my opinion, provided he and his representatives are willing to figure out a reasonable contract # (10-11 million per, IMO).

Rajon Rondo, at his worst, will be as good as DJ. DJ, by the way, had issues that make Rajon Rondo seem like Jack Armstrong the All-American boy by comparison. He was run out of Seattle and Phoenix, and in Seattle he was the best player on a championship team at age 24. As soon as DJ left the Sonics, the team went into the crapper. Danny has mentioned several times that DJ had a very infantile streak to him that hurt the team when he was on the Cs.

Yet DJ is a God on this board, as he should be, and Rondo is regarded by some as little short of a bum.

Fortunately Danny is the GM. Rondo is going nowhere.

BTW, at his best, Rondo will be the second best point guard in team history and will be one of the ten best players in the league.

elrod enchilada wrote:Rajon Rondo, at his worst, will be as good as DJ. DJ, by the way, had issues that make Rajon Rondo seem like Jack Armstrong the All-American boy by comparison. He was run out of Seattle and Phoenix, and in Seattle he was the best player on a championship team at age 24. As soon as DJ left the Sonics, the team went into the crapper. Danny has mentioned several times that DJ had a very infantile streak to him that hurt the team when he was on the Cs.

Yet DJ is a God on this board, as he should be, and Rondo is regarded by some as little short of a bum.

Fortunately Danny is the GM. Rondo is going nowhere.

BTW, at his best, Rondo will be the second best point guard in team history and will be one of the ten best players in the league.

Hmm, never thought about that. So basically, your predicting Rondo to be as impactful a player as say, Pierce, who was pretty much a borderline Top 10 player for a lot of his career.

I don't see Rondo ever reaching that point- his best is becoming a consistent Top 15 to Top 20 NBA player.

I said that is his upper potential. Look, if he played like he did in the Bulls series for 82 games, and makes his outside shots, he is easily a top 10 player in the NBA. Maybe a top 5 player. So it is not like this is entirely a crazed projection.

He may well not reach that level consistently. At worst he will be what we saw last year during the regular season, with experience.

Rondo is 23. Last year would have been his rookie season had he stayed at Kentucky. Except for Magic and Chris Paul and Isiah Thomas, every great point guard of the past three decades has required several years to get up to speed: Kidd, Stockton, Payton, Nash, T. Hardaway, Price, Billups.

History suggests there is good reason to think Rondo is going to get better.

elrod enchilada wrote:I said that is his upper potential. Look, if he played like he did in the Bulls series for 82 games, and makes his outside shots, he is easily a top 10 player in the NBA. Maybe a top 5 player. So it is not like this is entirely a crazed projection.

He may well not reach that level consistently. At worst he will be what we saw last year during the regular season, with experience.

Rondo is 23. Last year would have been his rookie season had he stayed at Kentucky. Except for Magic and Chris Paul and Isiah Thomas, every great point guard of the past three decades has required several years to get up to speed: Kidd, Stockton, Payton, Nash, T. Hardaway, Price, Billups.

History suggests there is good reason to think Rondo is going to get better.

I hear your point elrod but bottom line, of all the great PG's you've mentioned only two of those won a title, Billups and Thomas. I don't know about you but I would rather have a decent PG and win titles than an outstanding PG but never a title. Also I don't know if we can Include Thomas in this discussion because that ERA was different from today's ERA. Back then every position from the 1 to the 5 was a well rounded basketball player. Today they are better athletes but not well rounded ball players (hence the lack of the mid range game). but getting back to my main point of this topic. The future of the C's is to continue to be competetive and win, not just be competitive with a star player and never win.

On your other subject of how you think Rondo can be a top 10, possibly a top 5 player. It could be possible. Possibly if he develops a jumper. Likely? probably not. Either way, other than Magic Johnson, name me a top 5 PG to win a title? Magic was different species because he was so talented and gifted and he could play every position...not just the 1. Thomas was not a top 5 player nor a top 10 player when he played. There were so many talented players in the 80's that he was top 20, by no fault of his own though because he was nasty. If he was in the league today.....yes.....top 10, possibly top 5....much like chris paul.

My only fear is we keep Rondo for 7 to 10 years and he becomes one of the greatest in Celtics history at the PG, BUT much like Stockton, Payton, Kidd, Nash, Price....i don't want to have one of the greatest...that never won a title.....

JSABleedsGreen wrote:... Either way, other than Magic Johnson, name me a top 5 PG to win a title? Magic was different species because he was so talented and gifted and he could play every position...not just the 1. Thomas was not a top 5 player nor a top 10 player when he played. There were so many talented players in the 80's that he was top 20, by no fault of his own though because he was nasty. If he was in the league today.....yes.....top 10, possibly top 5....much like chris paul.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking for, either the names of a top 5 point guard who's won a title, or names of point guards who were among the top 5 players in the league that won a title...

Regardless, 8 of the last 21 champions have had a point guard with comparable talent to Rondo. Detroit in 89 and 90 with Thomas, the Spurs in 99, 03, 05, 07 (with T. Parker), the Pistons again in 04 w/Billups, and the Cs in 08 with Rondo himself.

Beyond those #s, the 'great point guards don't win titles' is a flawed argument. This is a team game, and good players at ANY position ought to help win you a title. Just because this league has been dominated by Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq/Kobe, and Duncan the past 21 years doesn't somehow lessen the importance of the point guard position. Arguments from historical precedence are rarely valid when making what amounts to a value judgment about the importance point guard position.

with no real back up you want to trade rondo away for a sf/pf that wont play till 2012.
dude is our future I'm for him retiring a celtic.
Some players have something you can't measure in stats I see it in rondo do not trade him unless its chris paul.

I feel as if Ainge needs to think small or think minimal signing in 2010. His big fish to hook is Rondo, his own player. That's where th emphasis needs to remain. Because the point guard position is too important to keep replacing every two or three years with another young, rookie salary player or veteran band-aid. So sign Rondo to a fair contract extension. The problem comes when the two parties try to determine the market for a young point guard. It'll be imperative for Ainge, Rondo and agent to get on the same page sooner than later.

I don't believe Pierce will be elsewhere after his current contract expires. He retires a Celtic. And Garnett will want to remain a Celtic because he's fond of Pierce and respects the Celtics rich history so much. The curious one is Ray. Ray knows he's a modern day Reggie Miller meaning his shelf life in the NBA is as long as he can remain healthy. A proficient shooter, like centers (if you're at least decent), will always be coveted in this league. With that said, Ray could remain or see himself as a hired gun. All it takes is one team to offer Ray a larger contract than Ainge. So Ainge will need to be real savvy like he and company were with R. Wallace and family. If all three All-Stars can remain with Boston beyond their current contracts, Rondo and Perkins are teamed with one more young star via the draft. You may have the best bench in recent memory for Boston. That's Pierce, Garnett and Ray all backing up your starters at those positions. Wow. Okay, maybe not all three well come off the bench. But age will dictate this. You can only be effective defensively for so long before your legs fail you.

you guys all make valid points and i appreciate all your points of view on this subject. I agree that Rondo is an important asset whether he remains or goes via trade.......if Rondo starts asking for $12 million a year......is he worth that? If he is I don't think that's a price the Celts can afford and still keep a solid core, specially with the way the economy might be and the new barganing agreement. Chris Paul worth that type of money or more? Hell yes.....Is Rondo though? and do you keep at that price?

Ainge has his hands full.

PG is not very important at all. Derek Fisher won a ring this year. This is an old argument. I don't ANY is worth a max contract - and Rondo is certainly not worth one. He killed us in the Orlando series.

Max players have complete games on offense and defense... A PG's defense impact is small - and a PG who can't shoot is flawed offensively. What have teams done with max money PGs - fail.

it's simply a waste of money to sink all your dollars in the PG position nowadays. Players growing up today learn to handle the basketball and thus a PG is less useful. The very best PGs today are closer to SGs..

Pete

GuyClinch wrote:PG is not very important at all. Derek Fisher won a ring this year. This is an old argument. I don't ANY is worth a max contract - and Rondo is certainly not worth one. He killed us in the Orlando series.

Max players have complete games on offense and defense... A PG's defense impact is small - and a PG who can't shoot is flawed offensively. What have teams done with max money PGs - fail.

it's simply a waste of money to sink all your dollars in the PG position nowadays. Players growing up today learn to handle the basketball and thus a PG is less useful. The very best PGs today are closer to SGs..
Pete

No- the very best point guards today are still very much point guards. This is pretty much flawed anyways- give the best point guard in the league a top tier squad- say a borderline All-Star big and a 2nd tier wing, and the team will be contending for a championship year in and year out.

Though I do agree that in today's game an elite wing (and by that I mean the Wade, Kobe's of the world are more valuable to a team than an elite point guard- unless the point guard is anomaly size wise like Magic).

Meh- we can talk about Rondo being a Top 5 player if connects on his jumpers and what not- but even with a serviceable jumpshot (say Tony Parker), he still wouldn't be diverse enough offensively to be a Top 5 player.

Though I obviously want Rondo to be a good shooter, he's behind where Parker was at the same age in terms of mid range jumpers.

At 23 years old- Parker made 45% of his mid range shots and at 24 he made 42%. Rondo this past year shot 38% from mid range. Granted, Rondo took far less mid range shots- so it's not hopeless and it may be a case of him not having the confidence to shoot enough/doubting himself when he does shoot.

I'll check tommorow what Parker is shooting nowadays from midrange just to get an idea...

It's possible Ainge can look like a winner here either way. Conversely, Boston fans could lose if you're a fan of Rondo.

The off-season criticism made by Ainge and the media can only further motive Rondo entering next season. On the other hand, Ainge's thinking might be to trade Rondo for an equally talented young player (it doesn't necessary have to be another point guard) who's still in his rookie contract that he believes is worth the salary that Rondo and agent might seek. Nonetheless, it's important for Rondo to improve as a starting point guard because he and Boston both will benefit.

Note: I suggested a young player, but this player won't be anyone from Rondo's draft class since Roy has already signed an extension with Portland. Arguably, neither Aldridge or Bragnani are better than Rondo. Therefore, I could be referring to a young player from the 2007 draft class which included Oden, Durant and Yi. But that isn't to say Ainge will be able to trade for either or if they're worth trading away Rondo for. Obviously, Durant is the player of those mentioned you would want. But Rondo must fit with Oklahoma City. This is another reason why Rondo's unlikely to be traded at least for equal talent straight up.

If Rondo's becomes an All-Star next season, then things will get real interesting leading up to the trade deadline. That is to say, will teams inquire to Boston about him or could Ainge take the initiative and gauge league interest during the next off-season. Perhaps, a sign-and-trade scenario develops.

Trading A. Jefferson made sense if it meant you acquired Garnett. It's hard to see a similar scenario coming to fruition involving Rondo. Hence, why you try to resign him.

JSABleedsGreen wrote:Fellas,

Let's look a little beyond the next two seasons. Don't get me wrong, I'm super excited about this season but I also want my favorite team to be competitive in the next decade.

I think Ray Allen will still be here, granted it will be at a discounted price but I think he will be around because he loves being here and he loves his teammates. I think the same thing needs to happen for Pierce and Garnett if they wish to continue playing but still giving the team a chance to bring younger super talent.

My biggest question is Rondo. Will he still be here in 2 years? I honestly don't think so. I think in order for the team to be successful in the future they will need to trade him for another important skilled position player. Perhaps a young PF stud just coming into his own (an Al Jefferson type when traded for garnett) or a SF (Joe Johnson before he signed with Atlanta). I don't think it's possible to win a championship when the best player and max player is the PG. The spurs won with T.PArker but he wasn't the best player nor the max player. C Billups was arguably the best player on the Pistons team but he wasn't a max player. Rondo will want to command a max contract but I don't think it will happen with the Celts. You can still win a championship with a descent PG, but you can't win championsip with only descent big men. You have to have great talent at the 3,4 and/or 5 in order to win IMO. I think Rondo will be traded for a young upcoming stud and possibly a pick.

As for the rest of the team, i'm hoping Walker and/or Giddens develop into good players. I like Hudson, i think he might be better than Walker and Giddens. TA is a goner, Scal will be gone, Perk will be Perk, Big baby will be traded next year for a pic. I'm hoping they swing a longer term signing for Daniels. Sheed will be gone.

What are ya'll thoughts?

Totally agree, and I think that Rondo is way more into himself and not about the team. He is in no way/shape/form a max player. I can see him asking for it though and ending up playing for big $$$ on some scrub team like the Clips or Sixers as a main attraction.
A lot of players don't understand the fact that very few guys out there actually deserve a max deal, and that they must be cornerstones. IMO, ppl that deserve Max deals:

LBJ
Wade
Kobe
Melo
Dwight
CP3
Duncan

Everybody else needs to get a reality check. If the C's pay Rondo max $, they will fail epically.

ryaningf wrote:

GuyClinch wrote:I think Rondo gets moved next year. I don't think Danny/Coaching staff entirely likes his attitude or how he represents the team. Things like showing up late or not practicing his J's bother the staff - this combined with his high contract demands makes him very likely to be moved.

The progression we're witness to vis a vis Rondo and Cs suggests that Doc will continue to heap on Rondo more and more of the offensive responsibility, putting the ball more and more in his hands (and taking less playmaking pressure off Ray/Paul), and slowly but surely building the team around HIM. The signings of Wallace and Baby show a willingness to go more and more towards a penetration-and-kick-centered offense, while the lack of a viable backup point guard suggests that Danny/Doc envision Rondo sticking around for awhile. Other than the media rumblings orchestrated by Danny as an early negotiating ploy, ALL SIGNS point to Rondo being a Celtic for a long time.

Personally, I think Rondo goes down as one of the best point guards in NBA and Celtic history and gets up into the Paul/Williams range of greatness in 09-10. It's paramount we extend him this offseason in my opinion, provided he and his representatives are willing to figure out a reasonable contract # (10-11 million per, IMO).

I think Rondo is gonna be awesome next year, and will be the difference between a championship and no championship. Averaging nearly a triple double across two 7 game playoff series is pretty unreal. If Rondo can smooth out his offensive game a little more and get his 3pt shooting up to around .350, he will own the EC at the PG position.

JSABleedsGreen wrote:Thomas was not a top 5 player nor a top 10 player when he played. There were so many talented players in the 80's that he was top 20, by no fault of his own though because he was nasty.

Let's see. Thomas made All-NBA First Team a couple of times, which suggests he wasn't viewed at the time as you're suggesting ...

... except, the years he won his championships, he didn't even make All-NBA Third Team. http://www.nba.com/history/awards_allnba.html

Jordan, Magic, Stockton, Kevin Johnson, Drexler, and -- yes -- Dumars were getting ranked ahead of him.

Hmm. I was setting out to disagree with you, but you have a point.