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Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe

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Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#1 » by Rocky5000 » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:39 am

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/ ... allphysic/
Sorry, Lakers fans, Kobe could be holding your team’s offense back.

Elite players could be taking too many shots for optimal offensive efficiency, according to new mathematical analysis using network theory.

Treating each player like a pathway to get the ball into the basket, a physicist has deduced that the most efficient path to a basket does not always run through star players like Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, or Ray Allen, even though they are better shooters than their teammates.

“The idea that a team could improve after losing one of its best players may in fact have a network-based justification, and not just a psychological one,” wrote Brian Skinner, a physicist at the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, in a paper posted to the arXiv.org. (Skinner is no relation to the other Brian Skinner, Baylor standout, Los Angeles Clippers power forward and 22nd pick in the 1998 NBA Draft.)

First, Skinner explains how people making the best decisions for themselves can hurt the efficiency of a total system. Let’s say that there are two roads, a highway and an alley shortcut. The alley takes up to ten minutes, but sometimes less depending on traffic, and the highway always takes ten minutes. Individuals realize they could save time by taking the alley, so they do. Unfortunately, when everyone takes the shortcut, it ends up taking the full ten minutes.

It’s a suboptimal arrangement that statisticians call “the price of anarchy.” If you force some cars to take the highway to give other cars a faster alley commute, then the average commute time goes down.

In more complex simulations, even closing down some roads actually leads to reduced traffic — and some real-world evidence [pdf] from cities like San Francisco appears to agree with theory, Skinner wrote.

By analogy, perhaps, getting rid of Kobe Bryant could actually make things better by dispersing the “cars” (i.e. possessions) more evenly. Offensive balance could reduce “traffic,” making putting the ball in the basket easier.

The key assumption is that a player’s real shooting percentage goes down as they take a greater percentage of a team’s shots. Skinner’s stats show this appears to be the case with Allen — and it stands to reason, too. As a player dominates an offense more, the defense adjusts. They double the player, devote more attention to him, and likely deny him high quality shots that are likely to go in. (We might call this the Iverson effect.)

So, if one were to distribute the number of shots a player takes on the basis of their shooting skill, the math says the team’s overall shooting percentage would go down. If Ray Allen takes only as many shots as the rest of his teammates, he will make more of them than he would if he put it up on 40 percent of the possessions.

By distributing shots more evenly, then, the team’s overall shooting efficiency could go up, even if the other players on the team are only average shooters. For the star player, it’s a bit like that old adage, “You’re promoted until you’re incompetent.”

Of course, Skinner’s analysis doesn’t take defense into account and the interplay between the shooting skills of the best players versus the worst players could change the results somewhat, but it will probably add fuel to the barbershop debates of Brooklyn over whether or not the Knicks really would have been better without Patrick Ewing.


I think that is one of the big advantages of the Celtics that gets overlooked. We distribute the scoring very very well between our 3 big players, this year, the scoring was even more well distributed between the starting 5. We're very lucky that the guys Danny chose mesh so well together. With the Cavs, and to a lesser extent the Lakers, you can load up on one guy and beat the team. That's simply not possible with the Celtics. As Doc says, our guys 'don't go into hero mode', they pass when they need to and they usually don't force the issue. As a result, the stats of Ray, KG, and Paul aren't what they used to be, but the wins keep piling up. Even in the playoffs the offense stayed balanced with KG out, Rondo's, Perk's, and Davis' averages all went up in order to compensate. Davis averaged as much as he did only because his teammates made a point of getting him the ball when open, despite the fact that his jumper was unreliable for most of the season. In a balanced team system, like the author describes, Kobe should be averaging around 20 ppg, not because he's not capable of scoring more than that, but because his teammates will play better when given more offensive possessions.
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#2 » by No1CeltsFan » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:42 am

stop it
Paul Pierce said it best about Caron Butler and the AS 2007 Game:

"Caron Butler should send me flowers for being injured so he could make the All-Star game, because if I was healthy, he wouldn’t be in there.”
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#3 » by ParticleMan » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:45 am

damn.

it's stuff like this that gives academics a bad name.

that dude is missing the crucial point that kobe can *create* shots, almost nobody else on that team can. other guys stats look good because kobe is taking the tough shots -- and he still makes a good %. if they distributed shots evenly then the other guys wouldn't shoot nearly as well.

that's why GMs pay the superstars big bucks.
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#4 » by GuyClinch » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:02 am

LMAO. Yeah lets hope the Lakers Brass reads this and we can trade Ray Allen for Kobe. What a dumb article. Having a star player lets roleplayers take the easy shots..
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#5 » by Joekickass2008 » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:04 am

We would be so much better with out PP!!!!
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#6 » by Ben-N1ce » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:15 am

:) Funny stuff.
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#7 » by wigglestrue » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:15 am

As Doc says, our guys 'don't go into hero mode', they pass when they need to and they usually don't force the issue.


Except for Pierce at the end of some games. And sometimes it works.

The point should be that an offense suffers if the star forces shots. Which = duh.
But to say that an offense would be better without a guy like Kobe = (Please Use More Appropriate Word).
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#8 » by Rocky5000 » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:21 am

I think what he's getting at is, not completely without Kobe, but just fewer shot attempts from Kobe. The writer sensationalized the headline a bit to get readers.

For comparison

Pierce 14.6 FGA
Allen 13.2 FGA
Garnett 13.0 FGA
Rondo 9.5 FGA
Perk 6.3 FGA

Bryant 20.9 FGA
Gasol 12.9 FGA
Bynum 10.0 FGA
Odom 9.0 FGA
Fisher 8.4 FGA

Does Kobe have to shoot 7 times more than anyone else for his team to win? I don't really know, I try not to watch Laker filth.
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#9 » by GuyClinch » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:24 am

^^^ It's fairly hard for a star to balance things perfectly. Sometimes a "bad" shot for mortal can feel pretty good for a star. Don't get me wrong some guys go to far but Kobe in general isn't one of them.
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#10 » by SashAlex » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:47 am

Well, as a Laker fan that follows every game, I could say that sometimes Kobe takes bad shots and that costs the team a win, but that happened only in a game or two this past season.

I'd love to see Kobe averaging 2 PPG less with 4 APG more and Pau Gasol getting a bit more touches in the post.

But this article is lame and stupid ! Kobe creates double-teams, he can go lights-out, score a triple with a hand in his face etc. etc. etc. Kobe averaging 20 PPG may cost the Lakers the Playoffs. LOL !
Cavs would fall in the lottery with LeBron averaging 20 PPG !
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#11 » by Ortho Stice » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:16 am

He's not saying they're better without Kobe, but they're better when Kobe integrates his teammates more. I think Kobe acknowledged this in the ESPN documentary of him this year, saying how he likes to get his teammates involved, because then the defense doesn't focus on him and he can score easier. I think there's even a stat they show on nationally broadcasted games, where if his field goal attempts go over a certain number, the Lakers have a small chance of winning.

Here's the original blog post which the author turned into a formal paper the article is based on: http://gravityandlevity.wordpress.com/2 ... ng-theory/

Here's some excerpts from it:

Suppose that Patrick’s “average” teammates all shoot 45%. (Since none of them will ever be called upon for more than a fifth of the team’s offense, we don’t need to worry about how their efficiency declines with usage.) Patrick is clearly a better shooter than his teammates, so how many of his team’s shots should he take?

The answer depends on your level of strategy. You might think that the best option is to feed the ball to Patrick until his field goal percentage drops to the level of his teammates. Only then should his teammates shoot the ball. And indeed, it’s hard to argue with this logic: if Patrick is shooting 60% and his teammates are only shooting 45%, then clearly Patrick should be taking more shots, right? In game theory, this strategy is called the “Nash Equilibrium”; it is the result of considering each play individually, and looking for the best possible outcome. It is also completely equivalent to the “selfish” optimum in the traffic problem, where each driver takes the path that is in their own best interest. As a result of the strategy, Patrick takes about 44% of the team’s shots (more than three times more than any of his teammates) and the team shoots 45% from the field.


As you can see, the team is most efficient when Patrick takes only about 21% of the team’s shots, just slightly more than everyone else. It seems ridiculous at first: in such a game Patrick would be shooting 60% while his teammates shot only 45%; surely he should be getting more shots. But the added benefit of keeping Patrick more poorly-defended pays off, and his team’s shooting percentage improves to about 48.5%.

This is the price of anarchy in basketball. A team that looks for the best play each time down the floor will shoot only 45%, whereas a team aware of its “global optimum” can do as well as 48.5%. They just have to purposefully refrain from going to their superstar, even when he is the best option.

I think about this sometimes when I watch the Magic use Dwight Howard sparingly, or when the Lakers use Pau Gasol only as a third option, even though he’s clearly their most efficient scorer. Maybe that’s not bad teamwork; maybe it’s good strategy.
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#12 » by Tricky Ricky » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:18 pm

I didnt bother reading but Kobe is the best player in the game today, as much as I hate him and the Lakers Im not afraid to admit it.
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#13 » by GuyClinch » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:24 pm

think there's even a stat they show on nationally broadcasted games, where if his field goal attempts go over a certain number, the Lakers have a small chance of winning.


The problem with all these kinds of statistics is that they ignore that basic concept that basketball is a fluid and changing game. Kobe takes alot of shots - not just because he is some ball hog - but sometimes its because the rest of his teamates are "off" and he wants to carry them. Thus sure they might lose alot when he is shooting alot. But it COULD because his teamates were playing poorly not because Kobe took alot of shots.

Likewise its not surprising that on games Kobe is taking a LOW number of shots his team is doing very well. it could well be that his team is "hot" so Kobe feels compelled to do little. Thus its not BECAUSE Kobe is shooting less that the team is doing well. Its that he is shooting less BECAUSE the team is doing well.

I could go on and on but this is just another example of how you can gain alot more simply by watching games then latching onto statistics. That being said sometimes teams DO have ball hogs that shoot them out of games. Kobe though - isn't that guy.

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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#14 » by LA Warrior » Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:53 pm

dumb article
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#15 » by TonyMontana » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:13 pm

Tricky Ricky wrote:I didnt bother reading but Kobe is the best player in the game today, as much as I hate him and the Lakers Im not afraid to admit it.

Wait WHAT??? Im shocked at what Im reading............ :wink: Props for your honesty, sometimes your too honest.
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#16 » by s1ickd » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:35 pm

as long as Kobe shoots 45%+, this article is worthless. When he has the ball in his hands, his team mates shooting percentages increase.

Also, im willing to bet he accounts for maybe half his team's free throw attempts.
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#17 » by Patterns » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:05 pm

So many of his teammates are created by Kobe. Ariza, Odom, Gasol, Fisher, Sasha, Farmar, Bynum, and now Artest all get fed with open shots created from Kobe's double team. And to get those double teams, Kobe has to go to work.
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#18 » by DEEP3CL » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:28 pm

Another convoluted article getting at nothing real basketball fans already know. I bet the writer doesn't understand the basic concept of basketball.
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#19 » by Anklebreaker702 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:26 am

This thread shows that you guys are real fans of the game above just per say Laker hating. This writer obviously doesn't understand ball 1 bit & you guys deservedly bashed him for it rather than take a stance of "oh here's a chance to down Kobe & the Lakers! Good job!
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Re: Lakers Offense Could be Better without Kobe 

Post#20 » by GuyClinch » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:59 am

We heard the same 'argument" about Pierce for like a million years. Then when he went down we won about zero games without him.. In fact the people that posted a similiar theory every damn day pretty much left the site after that little episode.

That's right Paul Pierce was "holding" Gerald Green back.. LMAO.

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