Allen/Walker/#1 - Martin/Nocioni?

hairybyrd · Post #1 » by **hairybyrd** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:47 am

There's been some talk about re-signing Ray Allen. I'm all for this but I'm also a bit skeptical. If the Celts re-sign Allen now then Ainge will have but a skoche of flexibility in the off-season. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to assume that Ainge will put this off for as long as he possibly can. If, for some reason, Allen and Ainge offend each other in this sometimes complicated process, is the following trade conceivable?

Ray Allen, Bill Walker, future #1 pick for Kevin Martin and Andres Nocioni

This is a good value trade for the Celts and the Kings set themselves up for a top-3 pick in the draft and a ridiculous amount of cap space to make a run at Bosh/Amare/etc.

3 Questions: Is it fair? Is it realistic? Any other Ray Allen trade ideas?

Dirty Water · Post #2 » by **Dirty Water** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:44 am

Negative. Cancel it.

DumbyTheWizard · Post #3 » by **DumbyTheWizard** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:30 am

No for both

Dogen · Post #4 » by **Dogen** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:58 am

vct33 · Post #5 » by **vct33** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:34 am

Yes please. I've ran many variations of this trade through the checker myself. I think it's a good deal. I think the best move for Ainge is to trade Ray this season so as not to handcuff himself in a few years.

However, the deal I like even more is Ray for J Rich & Barbosa.

Jammer · Post #6 » by **Jammer** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:49 am

vct33 wrote:Yes please. I've ran many variations of this trade through the checker myself. I think it's a good deal. I think the best move for Ainge is to trade Ray this season so as not to handcuff himself in a few years.

However, the deal I like even more is Ray for J Rich & Barbosa.

Neither JRich or Barbosa bring a dominant skill. And when you want to win championships, even if the window is 2 or 3 years, you want players that EXCEPTIONAL in something.

Allen's long range 3 point shooting is EXCEPTIONAL.

KG is EXCEPTIONAL defensively and as a shooter out to 20 feet, he used to be an exceptional rebounder, but now is simply excellent.

Eddie House is an exceptional 3 point shooter who has a high basketball IQ who sets the best moving screens in the NBA (without a whistle).

I could go on, but Barbosa and JRich are not what you want if you are building a championship team. They are fine if you are happy with the 4th best team in the NBA, because that means you're better than 25 other teams.

shrink · Post #7 » by **shrink** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:56 pm

SAC would want far more for their best player.

lojowo · Post #8 » by **lojowo** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:04 pm

Kings would pass on this in a heartbeat. Number 1 would have to be in 2013 because Celtics owe T-wolves one and you cant trade back to back picks.

I dont think Danny plans to trade Ray anyway, unles he gets a huge upgrade for an expiring contract.

EJay33 · Post #9 » by **EJay33** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:34 pm

Why would the Kings do this? Martin is a reasonably priced and young scoring machine who is literally capable of scoring 30ppg. I wouldn't be surprised that if he got some actual team mates that he'd make a similar transformation as Pierce and stop hogging the ball for the benefit of the team. As a Celtics fan I'd do this trade because of the ages and with Pierce and Martin on the same team every wing player in the league would probably foul out by the end of the 3rd quarter. However, watching Kev-Mart on that team really is brutal. No one on the Kings seems to like playing with him because all he does is chuck up shots, doesn't rebound, pass, defend, and isn't particularly vocal.. I'm following him closely to see how his career plays out once he gets on an improved team. Remember, we could've drafted this guy but took Tony Allen instead.

hairybyrd · Post #10 » by **hairybyrd** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:50 pm

Thanks for the input guys. I hope Ray Allen stays in Boston but its definitely important to Ainge to keep his options open. Also a good point, Godmoney, about passing on Kevin Martin in the draft. In 2004, Delonte (24) and TA (25) were taken directly before Martin (26). Drafting Jefferson and Martin in the same year would've been epic.

As for the people that said "no" flat-out...c'mon, at least humor me. This is, after all, a discussion board so let's ANALYZE why ideas are good/bad rather than making blanket statements.

Zin5 · Post #11 » by **Zin5** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:46 pm

I'd probably do this for the long term ramifications, but no way does Sacramento do it. They don't trade their best young player on a rebuilding team for someone who's not going to put them over the edge, a mediocre prospect, and a likely late first.

SonicYouth34 · Post #12 » by **SonicYouth34** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:51 pm

No. Martin is a p***y and he's always injured.

Jammer · Post #13 » by **Jammer** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:57 pm

lojowo wrote:Kings would pass on this in a heartbeat. Number 1 would have to be in 2013 because Celtics owe T-wolves one and you cant trade back to back picks.

I dont think Danny plans to trade Ray anyway, unles he gets a huge upgrade for an expiring contract.

The Celtics are free and clear of Minnesota. The 2009 First Rounder (#28) completed the KG trade. The Celtics can't trade their 2010 First Round Pick, because you can't trade to First Rounders in a row, but they trade their 2011 First Rounder, or draft and player in 2010 and trade him immediately afterwards.

Post #14 » by **sully00** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:22 pm

Jammer wrote:
lojowo wrote:Kings would pass on this in a heartbeat. Number 1 would have to be in 2013 because Celtics owe T-wolves one and you cant trade back to back picks.

I dont think Danny plans to trade Ray anyway, unles he gets a huge upgrade for an expiring contract.

The Celtics are free and clear of Minnesota. The 2009 First Rounder (#28) completed the KG trade. The Celtics can't trade their 2010 First Round Pick, because you can't trade to First Rounders in a row, but they trade their 2011 First Rounder, or draft and player in 2010 and trade him immediately afterwards.

Boston can trade its 2010 pick the rule concerns future picks, last year Boston could not deal it's 2010 pick because it had already dealt it's 2009 away. That draft is over, the '10 pick is fair game just can't deal '10 and '11 unless they get a 1st back in those years.

I love Kevin Martin, would love to have him replace Ray, but he doesn't make the kind of money that would force even a team like SAC to move him.

I like the idea of Barbosa but not Richardson. I would love to scoop up Leandro for expirings and a draft pick but not for Ray Allen. Barbosa could slide into House's spot in the rotation and possibly replace Ray down the road.

TheOGJabroni · Post #15 » by **TheOGJabroni** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:54 pm

I don't like it. It's easy as this: Kevin Martin is an elite scorer, not much else. We need team players. Not saying he's not a team player, but we need someone that's not always looking for their own shot to continue being the team that has seen success once again.

Post #16 » by **sully00** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:30 pm

Look Kevin Martin is not a good defensive player but he also plays on a terrible defensive team. He is probably the best shooter in the NBA, not just a scorer. Martin shoots 3's like some "scorers" shoot 2's. His attempts (15) are in line with what Pierce and Ray take now and significantly less than what those two were putting up when they were in his position while still scoring just shy of 25 a game.

Knockdown 3 pt shooting is the most valuable skill Ray provides this team, a skill that makes him almost irreplaceable, except, perhaps by Kevin Martin.

Celtic Esquire · Post #17 » by **Celtic Esquire** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:32 pm

I'm going to wait until the season starts before I start engaging in trade scenarios.

I have no idea how the team is going to play with a healthy KG and Sheed/Daniels coming off the bench for us so I'm happy to let things play out before making moves.

theman · Post #18 » by **theman** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:22 pm

I pretty much disagree with the OP on everything. Don't like the trade. Martin and Nocioni are nice complementary players but not what you get in return for one of "the big three" .

As for the Allen extension, it is a wonderful idea, assuming of course it is for reasonable money. I thought I heard it would be for about half the maximum. If Ainge could do that it would increase flexibility this summer not hurt it. The C's will be over the cap and having used the LLE this offseason would only have the MLE to chase players that lose out on the big contracts but those will be very few because soooo many teams have cap space in 2010.

In an ideal world, Cleveland or Miami (more likely Miami) get out of the gate slow as the season starts. Their soon to be UFA Labron or Wade (again more likely Wade) starts making it clear he will not resign at the end of the season. Ainge is then able to package Allen, Walker and a first round pick and gets Wade and Wade's bird rights. Since Allen is signed to a reduced salary he doesn't kill Miami's 2010 cap space.

That is in an ideal world of course. In reality, Ray Allen would hang around for a couple more seasons in an ever diminishing role, but is replace with a player acquired through trade, draft or MLE.

vct33 · Post #19 » by **vct33** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:00 pm

sully00 wrote:Look Kevin Martin is not a good defensive player but he also plays on a terrible defensive team.

I strongly believe that any elite athlete can be a solid defender. It's all about system and effort.

Andrew McCeltic · Post #20 » by **Andrew McCeltic** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:20 pm

Sacto's also got Jason Thompson and Tyreke Evans.. there are mid-season scenarios where you could think semi-reasonably about overhauling the backcourt in an Allen/Rondo for Martin/Evans trade - whether it's a fair talent swap is debatable, but money is also a factor.