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Daniels has been impressing me.

If Ray wants more than Ainge wants to pay, and Ray leaves next summer, could Daniels play shooting guard well enough, be the starting SG on a championship level team?

Rondo/Daniels. That back court is a mess. Neither can shoot and both need the ball to be effective. Also KG would never get the ball because of the doubles.

I love Daniels as well, but he needs to be tied to a great shooter like Eddie or Ray to neutralize his shooting weakness.

Danny wants to bring back Ray and Ray wants to come back, so they'll get something done.

well i don't think he could be one of our stars. he's a role player, albeit a good one. his lack of any outside game makes him a bit of a liability in a starters role.

otoh it depends on who we get... let's go all hypothetical here and say we trade, oh, rondo and ray for wade. then i think a wade-daniels backcourt could win a title with our other three, for sure.

Your question already answered. ( see Boston-Cleveland games)

SonicYouth34 wrote:Rondo/Daniels. That back court is a mess. Neither can shoot and both need the ball to be effective. Also KG would never get the ball because of the doubles.

I love Daniels as well, but he needs to be tied to a great shooter like Eddie or Ray to neutralize his shooting weakness.

Danny wants to bring back Ray and Ray wants to come back, so they'll get something done.

I'm not as confident as you about Ray returning.

Ray has said he wants a long term contract.

Next season Ray is 35. The three oldest players now in the NBA are now 37, 37 , 39 and two out of those three are now bench players, who play about 5 or 10 minutes a game.

Ray also said he wants to be paid.

If Ray wants a 3 or 4 year contract for say, $10 million a year, I don't think he gets it from Ainge.

But we'll see, I guess..

Big No. He had a good game though.

No I don't think that Daniels can be this team's starting SG, at least not next to Rondo. Could he be starting next to Joe Johnson sure, absolutely.

Ray has the same problem that Rondo has at the moment he is more valuable to Ainge under his current contract than he is with a new one. The only thing either player can do is offer Ainge a deal he can't refuse. My guess the magic number is 8.

Wolves2011 wrote:I'm not as confident as you about Ray returning.

Ray has said he wants a long term contract.

Next season Ray is 35. The three oldest players now in the NBA are now 37, 37 , 39 and two out of those three are now bench players, who play about 5 or 10 minutes a game.

Ray also said he wants to be paid.

If Ray wants a 3 or 4 year contract for say, $10 million a year, I don't think he gets it from Ainge.

But we'll see, I guess..

If Ainge has even a shred of doubt they he can re-sign Ray on the cheap, then he must be traded at the deadline this year. Otherwise there is absolutely no way to replace him.

vct33 wrote:

Wolves2011 wrote:I'm not as confident as you about Ray returning.

Ray has said he wants a long term contract.

Next season Ray is 35. The three oldest players now in the NBA are now 37, 37 , 39 and two out of those three are now bench players, who play about 5 or 10 minutes a game.

Ray also said he wants to be paid.

If Ray wants a 3 or 4 year contract for say, $10 million a year, I don't think he gets it from Ainge.

But we'll see, I guess..

If Ainge has even a shred of doubt they he can re-sign Ray on the cheap, then he must be traded at the deadline this year. Otherwise there is absolutely no way to replace him.

I thought we should have traded Ray last summer. He would have had very good value as both a player and as an expiring contract. We could have done a trade that brought back young quality talent for him.

You are right we get no compensation or value for him if he leaves as a free agent next summer. And we can't replace him at that point.

but we'll see I guess.

I don't think we trade Ray at the trading deadline. Last summer was the time to do it, if we were going down that route.

The only way we trade him this year at the trading deadline, is if the season "blows up". Injuries to key players that will keep us from #18.

SonicYouth34 wrote:Rondo/Daniels. That back court is a mess. Neither can shoot and both need the ball to be effective. Also KG would never get the ball because of the doubles.

I love Daniels as well, but he needs to be tied to a great shooter like Eddie or Ray to neutralize his shooting weakness.

Danny wants to bring back Ray and Ray wants to come back, so they'll get something done.

what he said

Ray had one of the top 10 most efficient seasons in NBA history - he's coming back if he is even 3/4 as efficient...my guess is he GETS that 50/40/95 season this year, as long as the bigs dont get hurt long term...guy is a legend...get into it...

Wolves2011 wrote:

SonicYouth34 wrote:Rondo/Daniels. That back court is a mess. Neither can shoot and both need the ball to be effective. Also KG would never get the ball because of the doubles.

I love Daniels as well, but he needs to be tied to a great shooter like Eddie or Ray to neutralize his shooting weakness.

Danny wants to bring back Ray and Ray wants to come back, so they'll get something done.

I'm not as confident as you about Ray returning.

Ray has said he wants a long term contract.

Next season Ray is 35. The three oldest players now in the NBA are now 37, 37 , 39 and two out of those three are now bench players, who play about 5 or 10 minutes a game.

Ray also said he wants to be paid.

If Ray wants a 3 or 4 year contract for say, $10 million a year, I don't think he gets it from Ainge.

But we'll see, I guess..

Yaaa..but 1 out of 3 is Shaq - the only guy in Ray's class as a player...he's doing just fine and he's never taken care of himself ever until last year...

Ray is not Lindsey Hunter dude - he is a HoFer coming off a HoF season...the load isn't on him to do more than be super efficient and dominate 1/3 of the games he plays...which he does easily...his place is here - 2 at 12 or 3 at 8 is what he'll get...

Ray's not gonna demand a huge contract. He wants security for his family and wants to win and what better place than here?

Wolves2011 wrote:

SonicYouth34 wrote:Rondo/Daniels. That back court is a mess. Neither can shoot and both need the ball to be effective. Also KG would never get the ball because of the doubles.

I love Daniels as well, but he needs to be tied to a great shooter like Eddie or Ray to neutralize his shooting weakness.

Danny wants to bring back Ray and Ray wants to come back, so they'll get something done.

I'm not as confident as you about Ray returning.

Ray has said he wants a long term contract.

Next season Ray is 35. The three oldest players now in the NBA are now 37, 37 , 39 and two out of those three are now bench players, who play about 5 or 10 minutes a game.

Ray also said he wants to be paid.

If Ray wants a 3 or 4 year contract for say, $10 million a year, I don't think he gets it from Ainge.

But we'll see, I guess..

Do you have even a shred of optimism for this team in your mind? Everything is "Rondo's going to be gone, Ray's going to be gone" and some more stuff but I've been drinking too much to remember. I'm not saying that you're necessarily going to be wrong, but you're just all doom and gloom when it comes to the Celtics.

As for Ray/Marquis, I think SonicYouth said it pretty well. We can not lose Ray for nothing. Well, we could, but we would absolutely have to get a decent replacement, and keep in mind we're going to be using some of that MLE money to retain Marquis next year too. A Rondo/Daniels backcourt would be atrocious. We either need to move Ray or retain him. We can't lose a major piece like him going into next year and expect to contend.

I agree with some of the posts on here too. Daniels couldn't and shouldn't replace Allen. Daniels has a Paul Pierce type of game without the step away jumpshot. He's strickly a slasher and 12 foot stop and shoot guy. Don't get me wrong i think he can ball and has great finishing ability but being able to shoot is such an asset. It's vital actually, if you can shoot you'll have defenders at your mercy.

I think Ray will stay but I agree that if he's looking for $10 mil a year for 3 years....FORGET IT. He's not worth it. He still might be able to shoot lights out but he's at his hump where one minor injury and it's all down hill from there. His body is getting too old to recover and come back at 100% in the same season.

I think Ray won't ask for too much. If he asks for 3 years at $7 mil....take it. He's worth it at that value. OR if there's incentive regulations in his contract ...that could bump up his salary...that would be fine too.

Zin5 wrote:Do you have even a shred of optimism for this team in your mind? Everything is "Rondo's going to be gone, Ray's going to be gone" and some more stuff but I've been drinking too much to remember. I'm not saying that you're necessarily going to be wrong, but you're just all doom and gloom when it comes to the Celtics.

As for Ray/Marquis, I think SonicYouth said it pretty well. We can not lose Ray for nothing. Well, we could, but we would absolutely have to get a decent replacement, and keep in mind we're going to be using some of that MLE money to retain Marquis next year too. A Rondo/Daniels backcourt would be atrocious. We either need to move Ray or retain him. We can't lose a major piece like him going into next year and expect to contend.

I let the facts speak for themselves. I'm not trying to be optimistic or pessimistic.

ainge could have resigned Rondo and Ray this fall. That hasn't happened and probably won't happen since both Ray and Rondo's agent say there are no negotiations.

Just because we WANT good things to happen for the team doesn't mean they will happen.

I remember the late '80's and the twenty years afterwards.

We could have traded original members of that team, when they still had "trade value" and stayed relevant.

I don't want to repeat that part of the Celtics history.

In my opinion the best player on this team, now today is Rondo. He is our future and the guy we should build around. [Great players love getting passes from Great PG - look at all the guys who have clamored to play with Kidd including Lebron last summer. Rondo is a young version of Kidd.]

But we apparently don't want to pay Rondo or have other plans for him ..... some say "trade chip".

I'm not optimistic about this situation.

I think there is a good chance we lose Rondo and Ray next summer with not compensation. Once they leave they can't be replaced due to salary cap issues.

Whats there to be optimistic about?

SonicYouth34 wrote:Rondo/Daniels. That back court is a mess. Neither can shoot and both need the ball to be effective. Also KG would never get the ball because of the doubles.

I love Daniels as well, but he needs to be tied to a great shooter like Eddie or Ray to neutralize his shooting weakness.

Danny wants to bring back Ray and Ray wants to come back, so they'll get something done.

While I agree with you that Daniels is a better player when he's tied to a great shooter like Eddie or Ray, I wouldn't say he "can't shoot". More accurately, Daniels can't shoot the 3-ball. His mid-range game is pretty good and he's very good off the dribble. He could improve upon his 65% FTP but he shoots a 48% clip overall. Last night Daniels shot 7-10 and the night before he was 7-11, scoring 17 points in both performances. A backcourt starring Rondo and Daniels isn't ideal but it's still very good.

Daniels is a great insurance policy if Ray gets injured or traded. The latter is unlikely but still a possibility. Over the past month I've posted two Ray Allen trades, both of which I would still like to see happen: Allen for KMartin/Nocioni and Allen for Ellis/Jackson or Maggette. Again, it's unlikely but if either of these trades happen or something like it a la Allen and Perk/Baby for Amare, whatever, the Celts have a good chemistry guy in Daniels who can fill starters' minutes for the short run or the long run.

Starting Daniels in any scenario would mean the Celts would be better served starting Wallace. With Wallace, KG and Pierce the Celts have enough shooting to offset the lack of shooting of a Rondo- Daniels starting backcourt.

In regards to Ray Allen, the most important thing to remember is this: the Celts will have to pay him next summer or risk losing him for nothing. If Ainge decides sooner than later that he doesn't want to pay him $10 million+ then he's going to trade him during the season to maximize the return on Allen's $18 million out-going salary.

Wolves2011 wrote:We could have traded original members of that team, when they still had "trade value" and stayed relevant.

For what, Sam Perkins?

We did that with Ainge and wound up with a couple of role player big men for depth.

We were better off then squeezing out as much as we could and continuing to contend - Bird's health just ruined things. But trading our aging stars for lesser, younger guys would have just left us medicore for longer, without the chance of a miracle run if the vets stay healthy and the stars align.

Same thing with Ray. He's old enough, most other teams only want him for a salary dump, and they won't give us any equavilent value for him. So we're best off keeping him around and rebuilding all at once when KG and Pierce are also done. It'd be awfully tough to "reload" and replace Ray.

Getting a guy like Kevin Martin is a pipe dream.

Guys like Jackson and, especially, Maggette would just be replacing Ray with a similarly expensive but worse player.

If we get a decent young player, we'd have to take on a terrible salary, mitigating any gain. If we try to get a big salary guy in return, he's probably not that good, or the other team wouldn't be trading him (unless Chris Wallace is involved.)

Wolves2011 wrote:We could have done a trade that brought back young quality talent for him.

Like what? I guess someone like Richard Jefferson could have been had. It would be worthwhile for Amare straight up. But not many quality talent is going to get moved for expirings.

Ray's value to us is as a player.
Ray's value to a potential trading partner is as an expiring.

That makes him tougher to trade in many ways. We were happy to trade Ratliff's expiring as ballast. We would not be happy to trade Ray's expiring as ballast, since we value him as a player. But another team won't want to trade equal value, since to them, he's nothing but ballast.

Ainge started 5 years ago with almost nothing of value on this franchise other than Pierce. Within 4 years we had a title. So even if we lose Rajon "Jason Kidd II" Rondo (LMAO @ that... i think Wolves is too young to remember Kidd in his prime) and Ray, we'll still be a lot further along than when Ainge took over. So I'm not too worried about another 20 years of misery. Most of that was self-inflicted by the stupidity of our GMs like the Ricktator and Chris Wallace.

Also... plenty of teams have signed their FA's despite not signing them a year early when they had the chance. In fact, it's the NORM not the exception. the idea that the ship has sailed on rondo and ray just because we didn't get something done this year is plain wrong, and shows a brutal lack of understanding of how negotiations in the nba work.

Wolves2011 wrote:I let the facts speak for themselves. I'm not trying to be optimistic or pessimistic.

ainge could have resigned Rondo and Ray this fall. That hasn't happened and probably won't happen since both Ray and Rondo's agent say there are no negotiations.

Just because we WANT good things to happen for the team doesn't mean they will happen.

I remember the late '80's and the twenty years afterwards.

We could have traded original members of that team, when they still had "trade value" and stayed relevant.

I don't want to repeat that part of the Celtics history.

In my opinion the best player on this team, now today is Rondo. He is our future and the guy we should build around. [Great players love getting passes from Great PG - look at all the guys who have clamored to play with Kidd including Lebron last summer. Rondo is a young version of Kidd.]

But we apparently don't want to pay Rondo or have other plans for him ..... some say "trade chip".

I'm not optimistic about this situation.

I think there is a good chance we lose Rondo and Ray next summer with not compensation. Once they leave they can't be replaced due to salary cap issues.

Whats there to be optimistic about?

That we're actually in a great situation to re-sign both of them next summer, unlike what you think. If we were a crappy team in a crappy market losing $20M a year like the Pacers, I'd say you're right, but we're not. The Celtics have all the assets to re-sign both and complete control over Rondo's situation at least and I can't see why Ray wouldn't want to return.

You're putting a negative spin on every possible thing they say, like assuming Ray wanted $10M+ per year over 3-4 years. Be rational, no team would give him that and when it came down to the reasonable deals, he'd probably rather just return here.

As for not wanting to pay Rondo, we're already in contract discussions with him and you're out of your mind if you don't think Danny wants to re-sign him.

I hope you're not like this in real life, most people find blind pessimism incredibly annoying.