Does anyone else feel like Ray

[celticsnut]

turns the ball over almost anytime he tries to dribble? He is a turnover machine. Also, how does Doc still play him 38 mins last night. There isnt one starter who should have gone over 30 mins.

[GuyClinch]

I do. Ray is absolutely on the downside. He needs to stop trying to be a playmaker and just work more on the catch and shoot game. Ray's ball handling and passing has been a disappointment since he arrived and his finishing hasn't been great either. He can still hit a J though - and can get to spots.

Pete

[BillessuR6]

I didn`t understand what Doc was doing yesterday. Maybe he wants Ray to average 40+ mpg this year...

I know one thing. We need to trade for another SG/SF so Ray can get some rest this season...Doc just doesn`t trust the young guys at SG/SF spot...

[MyInsatiableOne]

^I can dig that. I don't think he's as bad as some of y'all are making him out to be, but he should leave the bulk of the ballhandling to Rondo and Pierce, IMO...

At the catch and shoot game, he's still among the best in the league, though...

[UGA Hayes]

^ no he is that bad when it comes to dribbling. He cut it out last year, but it was a big part of his mediocrity during the champ year

[MyInsatiableOne]

^ no he is that bad when it comes to dribbling. He cut it out last year, but it was a big part of his mediocrity during the champ year

I certainly agree it's not a strong point in his game...just wondering why Pierce gets a pass when he turns it over an awful lot handling it as well??

[Dave_From_NB]

There is a reason that RA isn't a PG. It's not a strength of his game, but there are lots of good areas.

I missed almost all the game (4 hours standing in line for H1N1 shot), however was shocked that RA was both playing when I watched, and went for 38 minutes total. With Hudson, Giddens, House and Daniels, I don't get why RA played so much. Cripes, stick Giddens in there, who cares if he plays the last 18 minutes and is dragging his ass up the court at the end. Was Doc worried that the Celtics would be viewed as an easy opponent if they won the game by less than 30 points, or allowed Charlotte to score more than 60?

[Celts17Pride]

I didn`t understand what Doc was doing yesterday. Maybe he wants Ray to average 40+ mpg this year...

I know one thing. We need to trade for another SG/SF so Ray can get some rest this season...Doc just doesn`t trust the young guys at SG/SF spot...

I think Ray needs high minutes to keep his rhythm but 40+ minutes is too much IMO. He should be getting 34-36 minutes IMO. Play Marquis more.

[EJay33]

I am not sure what Ray's issue is on fast breaks. I think he is a very good dribbler but it seems like he doesn't always make the best decisions in transition. I wonder if he's lost some athleticism and is still trying to do some things that 24 year old Ray Allen was able to do. I don't think it's that he has no handles, he routinely uses a pick to get past his own man and burns the help D for layups in the half court game. Last night for example he definitely should've dropped the ball off to the trailer and instead bricked a layup. He doesn't have the ability to finish at the rim that Pierce does that's for sure. He still brings so much to the table out there that this almost has to be overlooked. He is really not a big turnover guy, I think perception outweighs reality a bit here. He handles the ball a lot, too. Pierce is a much bigger offender in this category and many of his are more inexcusable imo, such as spinning into three defenders and losing the ball and turnovers of that nature.

Turning on the jets and losing the ball trying to make the right play for your team - I'll take it. Trying to go 1 on 1 and doing too much while having an all-star cast of teammates - really annoying.

[elrod enchilada]

On CSN Tim Welsh mentioned that he spoke with Doc during training camp and Ray was Doc's biggest concern for the season. I find Welsh quite reliable.

We almost got bounced in the 07 playoffs because Ray absolutely sucked in the first 2 rounds. Last year, while everyone was beating Rondo over the head during the Orlando series, less attention was directed to Ray's near-total collapse. Had Ray played decently, we would have made it to the ECF. Ray, the max-contract player, gets a pass. Rondo, the non-all-star, gets flame-broiled.

Doc and Danny have every reason to be concerned about Ray. Recent history suggests he will lose his shot completely in April or May, and the Cs will need a Plan B when it happens. It may get us by a first or second round match-up, but it will likely prove fatal against the tall timber in the ECF or the finals.

Ray continues to play massive minutes and it is clear that the Cs have no ready alternative.

[Celts17Pride]

Had Ray played decently, we would have made it to the ECF. Ray, the max-contract player, gets a pass. Rondo, the non-all-star, gets flame-broiled.

Doc and Danny have every reason to be concerned about Ray. Recent history suggests he will lose his shot completely in April or May, and the Cs will need a Plan B when it happens. It may get us by a first or second round match-up, but it will likely prove fatal against the tall timber in the ECF or the finals.

Ray continues to play massive minutes and it is clear that the Cs have no ready alternative.

If it wasn't for Ray Allen the Celtics wouldn't have gotten past Chicago last year. This sounds alot like Ray hate to me.

If Tony Allen did his job last year then Ray & Paul's minutes would have been down and their performance could have been better. Marquis will take care of that this season.

[EJay33]

The Celtics as a team were out of gas after the Bulls series. Rondo was certainly the worst offender, there is no denying that he played terribly in that series. What do you do with a shooter when his shot isn't falling? Let him shoot his way out of it. It's Ray freaking Allen, maybe the greatest shooter ever to play the game. Rondo stopped giving up the ball and decided he would be the shooter. Rondo can do a lot of things, but whatever is wrong with his shot he isn't about to shoot his way out of it like Ray Allen and make a difference in a series as a scorer.

The fact is that Boston is not a championship contender without KG. Orlando was an ugly series, but as far as I could tell everyone was doing their job except for Rondo. We were counting on Scalabrine last year. I'm sorry, no one can win a championship when that is the case.

As for Ray's minutes so far - yeah, he is playing a lot. Boston really has no one who can replace what he does out there. I am not sure why Doc would play him 38 minutes in a 30 point victory. I don't think Coach Pop would ever do a thing like that. Also, I was at the game and I'm not sure if they showed it on TV, but KG took a hit, went down, and came up limping last night and got taken out of the game for good at the end of the 3rd quarter. Why is our post-surgery franchise player still in there on the 2nd night of a back to back up 30 points against a team without one viable offensive player? If you guys watched the preseason you saw Garnett play well and look like the KG of old - but also saw him occasionally favoring the leg and limping running back up the court. Unnecessary, especially considering the game had gotten a little chippy at that point.

I look at it like this - The Lakers are so good that Lakers fans feel the only thing that can stop them is themselves (IE Artest self destruction or Bynum not accepting his role). The Celtics are just as good if not better but injuries and guys wearing down is the number one thing we should be worried about. Healthy Celtics can beat anyone.

Pop hasn't played Duncan, Manu, or Parker over 35mpg in 5 years.. He just makes the playoffs with 55-60 wins and is a team that absolutely no one ever wants to face if healthy, home court or not.. Doc would be wise to emulate that, Boston has the talent to do it with Sheed, Daniels, and Eddie. Would be nice to have Big Baby in the mix as well, but unfortunately he's an idiot.

[celticfan42487]

Doc is a player coach, not a coach's coach.

He sees a shooter struggling, he thinks... hey just let him jack more shats and he'll get back in a grooooove.

Yet when he's making shats he thinks.. hey he's on, I'll keep him in and let him do his thing.

In the end it's always with Ray Allen in. Wether he's horrible or great.

Pierce is 100x the ballhandler Ray is and Ray's turnovers have typically no excuse. At least he isn't dribbling it off his foot like he did in the playoffs a couple years ago.

[celticfan42487]

BTW that said. We'd be best to leave the ballhandling to Rondo who is the only magician with the ball we have out there.

If Pierce started traveling like LeBron and Wade he'd never turn it over...

[elrod enchilada]

No Ray hate at all. Just facts. As much as I like Ray, we need to keep an honest picture of his game. You can bet Danny isn't afraid to face the truth. For a guy who is a max contract guy because he is a super shooter he has extensive deadzones where he scores and shoots like JR Bremer that are unusual. I can't think of any other truly great shooter, whose game is so defined by his shooting, being capable of such extensive and thorough slumps, especially in the playoffs. Yes, he was fantastic at times, like in the Bulls series, but, my God, isn't that what he is supposed to do? He is a max-contract player almost entirely because of his scoring and shooting. I think Tim Welsh alluded that Doc and Danny think it is the team's primary concern going into the season. Seems entirely reasonable in view of the way Ray's shooting totally tanked in the playoffs for long stretches in each of the past two seasons.

Maybe it was due to the ankles. Let's hope so. But not sure what we gain by pretending it doesn't exist. I am willing to bet Ray is well aware of it. Too bad our crack Celtics beat writers have never noticed it. Too busy dissecting Rondo's and Big Baby's flaws I guess.

[darrendaye]

Well, some folks on here are coming around a bit to what fellow poster Pogue has been stating for some time. Listen, Ray Allen's shooting and spacing is a critical element of this team winnng games. And he tries on defense and gives solid effort sticking his nose in there for rebounds and loose balls. But, he is a very marginal ballhandler and passer in relation to how much the ball is in his hands. I cringe whenever he takes more than 2 dribbles. Again, though, his shooting ability, particularly in clutch situations, is nearly impossible to replace. In a perfect world, Ray would accept a contract and reserve role similar to what Rasheed did in the offseason.

As for Pierce, he has not received a free pass on here in the past when he has dominated the ball. And I still think that his ballhandling could be curtailed further in deference to Rondo at times, but Paul is a slightly better distributor than Ray and he has the added value as a penetrator and finisher and the rim. He also draws contact when he is willing to take the punishment these days.

While it is ridiculously early to project something like this, it would be superb if Hudson developed into a 24ish minute per game type reserve. Either go small with Hudson or big with Daniels to start, then have Ray come in firing off the bench and at the end of games. But that's just my 2 cents.

[SichtingLives]

Ray's ballhandling and to a lesser extent, decision making, are definitely the weak points of his offensive game. He is pretty bad at running the fast break too. But.....when his shots are falling, you deal with his flaws much like you would for anybody else who is playing well. Let's be honest, there are maybe a dozen players in the NBA who don't have some kind of discernable weakness to their game. Ray had an off night shooting the ball last night. He missed some pretty easy looks that he usually drains, he even missed a FT and rattled another one in. He'll have more games when he's on than not, but these poor shooting games only accentuate his other flaws.

I don't know who's gaining on who but as the years go by Eddie House and Ray Allen are looking more and more like the same player.

[TheOGJabroni]

While clearly, Ray's dribbling is not what it once was, I think the thread and some responses are a bit overdramatic. I do not want to see Ray as purely a catch-and-shoot guy. Maybe he needs to pick his spots for driving to the basket better and be absolutely sure of what he is doing (none of this jump in the air with the ball and hope for the best business), but by no means should be abandoning that part of his game completely.

[SichtingLives]

Ray has done a decent job of slashing and getting to the basket as a Celtic and he's usually pretty crafty at finishing inside. I think it's just the concept of Ray as a playmaker that makes people a little nervous.

[Kefa461]

38 min......2 tos......a lot to do about nothing.