Two questions I would like to hear peoples opinions on...

[Ed Pinkney]

Firstly, if we continue to struggle over the next 20 to 30 games, would the coaching staff make changes to the starting lineup?

I think because the current starters were the starters on a championship team only 18 months ago, it will give them a lot more time then other teams would be given. For me, Rondo, Perkins and Pierce have been playing well. Garnett and Allen have not. But how do you bench one or both of them based on who they are, what they potentially offer etc. I think it is an interesting example of how much of a players league it is that Doc might not be able to do it even if he wanted to.



Secondly, what do you think our best fourth quarter/closer lineup would be?

Again there are many arguements for various bench players to be finishing the game, particularly with our starters not exactly dominating. House is useless unless he is hitting his shots, as shown against Orlando. Wallace is currently stinking on offense but he is great on defence and has been rebounding (at least defensively) pretty well. Daniels offers so many positives without being sensational, he is unlikely to lose you a game but can he win you games? Shelden just hustles, gets to good spots, does his job. But do you want him in there at the end?



I have been thinking about our lineups quite a bit for the last couple of weeks so I'm interested what other people think.

[Cyclical]

I think it's more of a question of who you're playing against.

Personally I like Marquis playing the 2 alongside Pierce. It's a shut-down lineup, with Ray coming off the bench for offense against bench players - especially once KG gets his legs under him and his shot becomes more consistent. Games won't be as close as they are now. When shots are not falling you're always going to struggle.

Re Perk vs. Sheed and Rondo vs. House at end of games I'll take our starters unless of course House and Sheed are super hot. Again, there are no absolutes. This stuff should be determined case by case depending on the matchups but 9 out of 10 times I'd go with our starters.

[chakdaddy]

Starting lineup changes would be shades of 1989 (ironic that a poster called Ed Pinkney (sic) brings it up!) and a bad sign IMO. Actually, what was the year McHale went to the bench? I thought Shaw and...Lohaus went to the starting lineup and McHale and Ainge went to the bench? And then Pinckney replaced Lohaus after the trade?

...

Looks like Shaw replaced Ainge before the trade; the next year Pinckney replaced McHale; in '91 Shaw replaced a retired DJ, and Gamble essentially replaced Pinckney as Lewis shifted to SF and Bird to PF.

Anyway, I'm not sure what lineup changes would help us right now; I do feel that Marquis Daniels may be the key, along with Pierce and Rondo - I feel like the biggest problem is opponents denying the three; we have to adjust and counterpunch with more slashing, and those 3 guys are the ones to do it. I also wonder if Ray is losing range with age; his midrange game seems consistent even when the 3s aren't falling.

[threrf23]

I think Sheed makes a lot of sense in the starting lineup. Sheed complements KG more offensively, Perk can make better contributions offensively against the opposition's back-ups.

I've also thought for a little while that Ray and Rondo make more sense playing good minutes off the bench from a theoretical perspective. But I don't see that happening.

[Havlicek17]

I think we are struggling for a few reasons.

1.) KG is playing his way back from an injury and is nowhere near 100%
-KG is playing a step slow, especially on the defensive end

2.) Rondo hasn't been himself since he signed his new contract
-Up until the 4th quarter last night, Rondo has been scared to death to take a shot.
-Any shot...FT's, mid-range open looks, drives to the basket even...until the 4th last night

3.) The bench isn'tplaying as well as it did to start the season
-What's Sheed shooting % anyone?
-Marquis wrist injury, and Eddie hasn't shot well.

I don;t expect any line up changes, we will improve as KG gets better, Rondo starts shooting again, and the bench comes around.

You go with the hot hand at end of games.

[Celtics_85]

I'll hold judgement until Baby and TA get their burn on the court. They will definately bring the energy lacking on this team right now.

[Ed Pinkney]

I agree changing lineups might not be the best answer but if we do continue to struggle (which is a big if) we can't assume just because five guys started on a championship team two years ago that it is enough on it's own to keep doing it.

I think I have officially given up on Tony Allen. I just don't see him bringing anything to this team. And I think Shelden is better for this team than Davis. We are getting crushed on the boards, and a jump shooting undersized power forward who doesn't rebound isn't going to make much of a difference.

[Kids Are Alright]

I hope Glen Davis and Tony Allen will bring something to a bench that has not been scoring points....PG on the 2nd squad is a sticking point, Eddie's man scores at will at times and Eddie's not been burning the other team at all

[return2glory]

Wow about Williams being better than Davis. Are you kidding? Really? Are you watching any of these games? Our team needs offensive help and hussle plays. Williams doesn't provide either and Davis does. It's funny how so many people don't appreciate what Davis did for us last season, especially in the playoffs.

Davis is going to be better this year for two reasons. 1. He is about 20-30 pounds lighter, which will help him offensively and defensively. 2. His thumb injury is going to be a blessing because he has been working on his left hand. Williams is a nice player, but Glen Davis has the ability to carry a team for a quarter or two when he has his game going. We need that. I personlly can't wait for Davis to come back.

[Jammer]

Ed, you don't offer any practical solutions. And you create problems where there aren't.

Although Pierce is having the best season, Ray is right behind him. Rondo is hot or cold (though I'd really like to see Rajon make the All-Star team this year). While it's true the starters have had a bunch of first quarters where they were down, Ray has often times been with the second unit when the second unit has overcome sizable deficits.

Your suggestion to bench Ray is down right Preposterous, and would likely be viewed as such by any of the Celtic Coaches. Why? You don't offer a better alternative. And you can't. So, the problems on days when Ray isn't hitting, is either:

1. Celtics have a viable back up shooting guard that can actually shoot, other than Eddie House. Marquis Daniels, Giddens and Tony Allen are all non-shooters.

1B. Celtics get a backup SF that can actually shoot, allowing Pierce, Ray and Mr. Shooter to adjust minutes as necessary.

2. Rajon Rondo fixes his jump shot to provide another shooter.

3. The Celtics get another PG to take Lester Hudson's place on the active roster.

Your suggestion about KG is equally preposterous. Downright ridiculous. Why? Overall, KG is still one of the 4 best players on the team. And the 4 best players on the team all start. So, the Celtics obviously have Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, KG and Rajon Rondo as starters. There goes your argument.
Getting someone better than one of the starters is not easy to do, as the Celtics do not have any draft picks worth a dang to use as trade chips.

So, the starting lineup is intact for the season.

The more logical areas of improvement are for:

1. Rasheed Wallace to learn to be a team player, not just heave 3's, but post up, use a currently non-existent MID-RANGE game, shoot closer to the basket, pick and roll (unless he's as lame as he looks), etc.

2. Get another wing player that can shoot, and another guard that can shoot. You can be sure Danny is working on these, but most of the player movement, and there was tons, happened around the draft this year, or shortly thereafter.

[return2glory]

Jammer, I love the fact that you are offering solutions. I agree a lot with your 1B. We can use a SF that can shoot and defend. A guy like J. Dudley would be really nice for this team. This would allow us a lot more options. (1) We can have Wallace post up more, (2) we can move Daniels to the point at times, and (3) give Ray and Pierce some rest.

Just look at our wings like you pointed out other than Pierce and Ray. Walker, Giddens, Tony Allen, and Daniels aren't good shooters. Giddens is the best of the bench off the bench as far as shooting goes, but the problem is he lacks confidence and doesn't get in the games.

[Ed Pinkney]

Now, now Jammer, I am not trying to fix anything, create problems or offer solutions and I wasn't saying we need to make changes to the starting lineup right now. Or that Ray and Garnett need to be benched.

What I asked was if we continue to play as we have been for the next 20 to 30 games and are only winning half of the games, would the coaching staff consider making changes? I am well aware of what Garnett and Ray bring to the table but they have not been playing that well recently though obviously there is a reason with Garnett.

I just wanted to know what people thought about this hypothetical situation as well as what people thought our best finishing lineup was. Not telling people what I think is wrong with the team and what I think they should be doing.

Thanks.

[sully00]

I don't think this team is struggling significantly, maybe a game worse than they should be. I like blowing people out too but it really has more to do with your opponent than yourself I mean NBA games should stay in in single digits. I guess it is eye of the beholder but we have won 3 of 4.

I am somewhat surprised at the takes on this board about this teams strengths and weaknesses especially late in games.

Ray Allen is playing good basketball right now. I know many of you want to find away to marginalize him so that the team can move in another direction long term, but teams are attacking him on the perimeter and he is taking it to the hoop. Who would have thought Ray could shoot below 30% from 3 and still shoot 47% from the field based on the last two years? Ray has to straighten it out from long range and history proves he will but most of it will come from teams adjusting overplaying him at the 3 point line. While he is struggling from 3 he is making up for it by getting to the line, he is avg 17 ppg over the last 5.

Now KG has not been good enough flat out. But all we can hope for is that it comes with time and neither Perk or Wallace are threatening his mins that is for sure. Wallace is not shooting well and either is essentially anyone else besides Paul, though Perk has been effective down low.

That leaves the Rondo and House situation. Doc went small against PHI don't really want to see that too often. But without Davis and with this team's shooters struggling I don't what Doc can do. I don't think we can get away with Daniels at the point but Rondo has got to be able to knock down some friggin FT's so that the offense isn't about trying to get a shot off without our PG getting fouled. This team is so much better when this kid is playing his game but he isn't going to be able to play it down the stretch with a fear of going to the line.

Rondo has to be on the court late in the game anything else is winning battles to lose the war. The only swap is Perk for Wallace and if Sheed isn't making 3's then we really aren't getting anything in the swap. At the moment he isn't even shooting better from the line. I don't think staying with Perk is going to be a nightly solution and foul trouble would likely eliminate it as an option. But if Glen Davis has somehow maintained the level of play and conditioning he was at in the preseason to this point Wallace better get his act together or he will be losing mins especially late in games, this team needs somebody who can make shots and get to the line.

Rondo should not be able to go home at the end of the night until he makes a 100 FT's.

[ryaningf]

Well, it hasn't got to the point with me that I'm even thinking of lineup changes this season. But since the question has been posed, my feelings are thus:

1. Ray is probably the first to be removed from what was the best starting lineup in the league the last 2 seasons. I'm pretty sure it's not happening this season, unless Ray goes to Doc and tells him he thinks it would help the team. But I doubt Ray does that, even if he is a great guy.

And it's not even that Ray *should* come off the bench...it's just that looking at all the other starters, Ray is the most likely to be demoted. Rondo and Perk will be starters for a while, KG is KG and he'll never come off the bench until there's someone markedly better than him, and Pierce is about as entrenched in the starting lineup as possible. So, it has to be Ray, if it's anyone. Like I said, I don't think we're going to make changes--but if we do it has to be Ray.

I'd also like to throw out two thoughts about Marquis Daniels.
1. He's been our best, most consistent bench player. He's had a few bad games recently, IMO, but his game allows everyone to perform, as he's the jack-of-all-trades filling in the gaps when they arise.
2. Even though he's been our most consistent bench player, I think we're under-utilizing him quite a bit. It seems Wallace or House can get shots whenever they want and that we actually look to get them off--I'd love to see that kind of conscious attitude be directed towards Daniels. I'd love to see him get more opportunities with KG and Perk, especially in the pick-and-roll, and I'd love to see Doc run the same high pick he runs with Paul and Rondo (the one that gets Paul matched up against the other team's point guard), but instead use House and Daniels.

I think using House in crunch time, outside of offense/defense substitutions in clear situations where we need a 3 pointer, is ultimately counter-productive to the long term development of both Rondo and this team's potential. By going with House down the stretch, we're potentially denying Rondo the kind of confidence building shots and plays that he pulled out down the stretch against the Sixers. In the cost-benefit analysis, I'd rather take my chances Rondo down the stretch, hoping that he gets better and we get better as a team, then go with House, hoping he hits a three and we get the win (but not necessarily get better).

The regular season, this season, is about getting better for the post-season. I think playing Rondo down the stretch fulfills that goal. Playing House does not.

[captain green]

I'm with sully an ryangf here I think our starter are the best options at starters.
Rondo need shooting % help a 100 free throws is a legit option make him shoot that before and after practice he's young enough to handle it.
KG needs time
Perk need to stay out foul trouble
Pierce and Ray I see no major problems.
The bench is what it is I can live with Eddie and Rasheed ILL advised shooting %'s(hot or cold nites)
Sheldon and Marquis have been god sends.
Glenn and Tony will add even more depth later when they are ready.
And our scrubs are fan favorites I'm ok with that too.
There will be a trade for sure and I'm ok with that as well.
11-4 no need for a major shake up. We are a team that gets better and better as the season wears on.
All teams get stoked to play us, lakers and orlando and cleveland were among the top tier teams so close game are bound to happen, as well as blow outs.

2nd ? 4th quarter lineup (non blow out games)
I see it like this Rondo needs to stay in the game whether were leading or not his ability to dish,handle and slash to the basket as well as his d and offense rebounding is something eddie can't do. Paul needs to stay in the game because he is Mr. 4th quarter. I also can't see Ray being out much he spread the floor and drive to the hoop as well as an under rated passer, if need lock down d I could see bringing in Marquis but you would have to bring in Rasheed over Perk. Those are the two that I'd change in fourth quarter. KG also stays the more he plays the more he will get better..
So quick recap:
RONDO,RAY,PIERCE KG,PERK on a 5 point lead. if playing a dominate big.
RONDO, MARQUIS, PIERCE, KG, RASHEED on a 5 point lead if playing a dominate sg/sf.
RONDO,RAY, PIERCE, KG, RASHEED with 8 to 10 point deficit.
EDDIE,RAY PIERCE,KG,RASHEED if down 2 or 3 points until lead is to 2 or 3 for us sub in Rondo for eddie.
Thats my take on how I would play it.
Might equal a win might not but those are our options as of now.
The only other thing I could consider is Big Baby off the bench in a match up situation
As well as match up problems with a small ball team would be paul being a 4 with Rondo ray and marquis/eddie (d or the 3) while kg is the center.

[sully00]

How exactly is Ray Allen who is playing 35 mpg coming off the bench who the hell would this team start at SG?

Daniels role is to help get others shot and to slash to the basket he doesn't have the range or accuracy to be a jump shooter.

How do you play Rondo at the end of the game if he can't make FT's?

[ryaningf]

How do you play Rondo at the end of the game if he can't make FT's?

If the last 3 seasons are any indication, Doc has managed this feat.

The impact of a bad free throw shooter down the stretch is an overblown concern that rarely materializes into a disadvantage, especially when that player isn't counted on to score clutch buckets. Rondo hardly shoots, and it's the players that shoot that get to the line.

Has Rondo ever even missed late game free throws that led to a loss? Off the top of my head, I can think of late game missed FTs from Ray, Paul and KG that costs us wins in the last 2+ years...yet I'm struggling to remember a similar situation involving Rondo.

This is another concern involving Rondo that arises not because of actual harm done the team but because Rondo's game doesn't fit nicely into the traditional idea of what makes a point guard.

[sully00]

Do you watch this team play games?

I ask because right now what we do is have Rondo go stand in the corner and have either Pierce or Ray initiate the offense and play 4 on 5. Is that good basketball to you?

If we are up 5 or more we can live with it for the advantage of having Rondo's defense and the ability to get in the open court.

But you either don't watch or don't understand the game if you think what is going on with Rondo right now is cool and just non traditional, the kid is shooting 33% from the FT line that is half of his already crappy FT shooting. You can't have your primary ball handler not just be bad but flat out afraid to go to the line. It has got to change.

[captain green]

The impact of a bad free throw shooter down the stretch is an overblown concern that rarely materializes into a disadvantage, especially when that player isn't counted on to score clutch buckets. Rondo hardly shoots, and it's the players that shoot that get to the line.

There is nothing but truth in that statement.

[sully00]

The impact of a bad free throw shooter down the stretch is an overblown concern that rarely materializes into a disadvantage, especially when that player isn't counted on to score clutch buckets. Rondo hardly shoots, and it's the players that shoot that get to the line.

There is nothing but truth in that statement.

No it is brain dead. Seriously he is our PG the ball needs to be in his hands. He is an incredible ball handler and passer with incredible speed and creativity and we have to treat him like he is Ben Wallace in the last 5 mins. Dude needs to make his FT's period, this team IS counting on him to score as we are everyone else who is on the damn floor. I am not asking him to shoot 3's but just be an offensive option on the floor, because if he can't then he won't be.