RealGM

The last three games have been a great example of what Ryan and I have been pimping here for the last few weeks. Keeping the ball in Rondo's hands more and setting him LOTS of picks is a wise basketball move, and one that Doc was ultimately going to be forced into. The fact that this approach wasn't embraced and advanced in training camp is on Doc.

Rajon is being "aggressive" because he actually has the ball in his hands. Kind of hard to be "aggressive" when you ware watching OTHER people with the ball, from the weakside, while they refuse to pass it to you. Why is he suddenly getting into the lane? Why is he breaking defenses down? It is because KG, Sheed, Perk, Paul, and even Ray are setting picks for him, and opposing defense are getting thrown all out of whack.

I think that it is no coincidence that KG suddenly broke out of his funk when this move was made. Why? Well, pick and roll basketball doesn't only involve the ball handler. It gets the pick setter involved in the game as well. Ask Karl Malone.

What scares me, though, is that I know Doc well enough now to know that he will use almost any excuse to go back to doing what he WANTS to do. Its like the Orlando game. They were scoring off of the picks for Rondo, and the other stuff worked like garbage. Doc's solution? Get Rondo out of there. Why? Well, he WANTED to do the other stuff. Much better to run an inefficient offense that you WANT to run, than an efficient one that you DON"T WANT to run. At least according to Doc's way of thinking.

The key thing, though, is that if Doc is going to finally come to his senses and just go with Rondo from now on, that plenty of practice time is going to be needed to get our pick and roll offense to the next level. It is just too simplistic now. The guys often just stand around and watch instead of moving off of the ball. That isn't good. Install quick hitter plays, like the one which led to Ray's dagger three against the Heat. That was COMPLETELY set up by the Rondo/KG pick and roll. The defense was paying too much attention to the high pick and roll, and Ray darts out from the baseline, and uses a Perk screen to get a wide open look. Its like magic: distract them with the left hand, and do the magic with the right.

That you can run pick and roll for Paul, too, is also a plus of this kind of basketball. Do not run predictable crap, but instead rely on the intelligence of your players to read situations. There is no need to LOOK for 5 passes when one or two will get you a good look. It is almsot as if Doc thinks that getting 5 passes means that you get extra style points added onto the scoreboard at the end of a game. I'll go with the advantages of consitent pentration, and wide open looks at the basket over that crap any day of the week. Call me crazy, but Ray taking a wide open three off of one pass by Rondo is better than Ray taking a contested two after 5 passes.

Hopefully what has happened over the last three games has squared Doc away. I can only hope.

I watched the C's game vs. Philly in person. There was no change in Doc's offensive system. So the 'I told you so' stuff is garbage. Sorry man..

If you were there in person, I'm sure you'd have noticed that SOMETHING is different. If it's not the offense, what would you say that it is? We've definitely turned a corner of sorts.

Frankly, GreenDreamer barking up the right tree, IMO. The guys are moving themselves and the ball at a much higher rate; we're setting a ton more screens, both off the ball and for the ballhandler. When Perk and Ray were talking about not doing the little things (about a week ago) and that that made all the diff, what do you think they were talking about? They were talking about setting screens (which get Ray off, as as well as Rondo) and good ball movement.

Our ball movement and screen setting has been off-the-charts since Friday's game. Magically, that's meant our defense has old has made a re-appearance as well, and with each game we've gotten better at approaching a total 48 minute effort.

Pete may be technically correct as there may have not be a 'change' in the offense--there probably isn't. But there's a definite change in how we're running that offense and the change is plain to see--we're setting picks and moving the ball.

The funny thing is, when we're not setting picks and moving the ball, people like to say that Rondo's coasting, or not being aggressive enough. What this latest streak shows is that once again that line of criticism is unfounded. And what it shows is that if we run into another malaise of the same sort, we'd be best served to get out of it by 'calling' (that is, by Doc calling it from the sidelines) for high picks for Rondo instead of going isolation with Ray/Paul or putting those two in pick-and-rolls, which was/is Doc's go-to coaching move. When Rondo gets a pick, it sets the entire offense in motion. When Ray/Paul get a pick, all too often we just stand around. THAT'S where Doc's coaching fails us.

Pete may be technically correct as there may have not be a 'change' in the offense--there probably isn't. But there's a definite change in how we're running that offense and the change is plain to see--we're setting picks and moving the ball.

It's the same offense. It's the same pass happy - ball movement oriented offense that Doc loves. It still frequently takes the ball OUT of Rondo's hands. All the ball handlers (House, Daniels, Rondo, Allen and Pierce) get picks set for them and EVERYONE (even centers like Perk) on the team sets people up (we lead the league in assist percentage) They clearly are executing better (most notably KG and Ray Allen are starting to finish the shots) but the offensive philosophy hasn't changed ONE IOTA.

Its nice I guess you can feel 'vindicated' by this - I guess it's mean spirited to spoil your fun. But it doesn't strike me as accurate. What has changed is that the c's are executing the same scheme at a higher level. Rondo as always has a chance to make plays for his teamates (he did average 9 assists per game and not coincidentally has been averaging that all along!). But there has been no sea change to a more Rondo centric philosophy..

You guys were wrong. We didn't need any scheme change - just better execution. And that's what we are getting now. It's plain as day that Rondo and Pierce were carrying the team. Now that KG and Ray Allen are joining the party of course things look better..

Pete

GuyClinch wrote:

Pete may be technically correct as there may have not be a 'change' in the offense--there probably isn't. But there's a definite change in how we're running that offense and the change is plain to see--we're setting picks and moving the ball.

It's the same offense. It's the same pass happy - ball movement oriented offense that Doc loves. It still frequently takes the ball OUT of Rondo's hands. All the ball handlers (House, Daniels, Rondo, Allen and Pierce) get picks set for them and EVERYONE (even centers like Perk) on the team sets people up (we lead the league in assist percentage) They clearly are executing better (most notably KG and Ray Allen are starting to finish the shots) but the offensive philosophy hasn't changed ONE IOTA.

Its nice I guess you can feel 'vindicated' by this - I guess it's mean spirited to spoil your fun. But it doesn't strike me as accurate. What has changed is that the c's are executing the same scheme at a higher level. Rondo as always has a chance to make plays for his teamates (he did average 9 assists per game and not coincidentally has been averaging that all along!). But there has been no sea change to a more Rondo centric philosophy..

You guys were wrong. We didn't need any scheme change - just better execution. And that's what we are getting now. It's plain as day that Rondo and Pierce were carrying the team. Now that KG and Ray Allen are joining the party of course things look better..

Pete

Uhhh.... how do you figure that we were wrong, in any way? Did you think that by running the offense through Rondo that it would result in an increase in his assist numbers? Did Ryan or I at ANY point make that claim, or are you just ignorant enough about the game to believe that a change in the offensive philospohy of the team would mean that his assists would go up?

The fact of the matter is that while YOU didn't notice any difference in the Philly game, I sure as hell did. At least in the fourth quarter where Rondo "showed up" and took over. They set a bunch of what are known as PICKS for him, and he basically won them the game. They continued to do that in the succeeding games.

What has happened to the Ray Allen 8 second play? You that golden oldie that Doc was havng us run where Ray runs around all of those screens, and hardly ever gets an open look off of it, but we do it anyways? We were running that one again, and again, and again.... but not no mo. The same goes for Rondo dribbling the ball down the court possession after possession and either passing off to Ray on the left wing, or passing of to Perk/KG for the rotation to Pierce? Yeah, we have been doing that SOMETIMES, but not MOST OF THE TIME. No, what is actually happening is that on MOST of our possessions now, Rondo is either feeding the post himself, they are running QUICK screens for Ray or Paul, and most often SETTING HIM PICKS. Ya know, actually allowing him to run his damn offense, instead of having inferior playmakers do that. The result is that the Celtics are magically scoring the ball like an elite offense should.... and that is with Paul having issues adjusting to the new flow. Need any other evidence, just go and check out the Raptor and Heat boards, and see what their fans were saying about his penetration's effect on their defenses and their COMPLETE inability to stop the Rondo pick and roll. Oh wait... you said that we can't run pick and roll with Rondo.

The most obvious evidence, though, is the fact that Rondo's plus/minus for the last 4 games is a team leading +68. Considering that our total margin of victory was only 40 points over the 4 games, that is saying something. The WINNING is coming with the kid out there running the show for us. More assists? Maybe you didn't spot it, but most of those passing clinic displays we have been putting on have STARTED with a Rondo pass, usually off of penetration. No pick, no pentration, Rondo, no clinic.

Yeah, I'm pretty much finished here.

Uhhh.... how do you figure that we were wrong, in any way? Did you think that by running the offense through Rondo that it would result in an increase in his assist numbers? Did Ryan or I at ANY point make that claim, or are you just ignorant enough about the game to believe that a change in the offensive philospohy of the team would mean that his assists would go up?

Running the ball exclusively through any players hands would result in a rise in assist numbers. Of course the C's like most NBA teams never do this so there is no change. Again AS THEY DID BEFORE - they set picks for any of the ball handlers. <g>

The fact of the matter is that while YOU didn't notice any difference in the Philly game, I sure as hell did. At least in the fourth quarter where Rondo "showed up" and took over. They set a bunch of what are known as PICKS for him, and he basically won them the game. They continued to do that in the succeeding games.

So? Had Paul shown up and took over that would have been proof of what? You think Doc's offense never allowed Rondo to show up and take over?! Doc's offense is flexible enough to feed the hot hand. That's kind of the whole point of it. They set picks and plays for any of the ball handlers and quite often it passes through the entire team. Rondo has been playing well all year and has been given plenty of lee-way to "turn it on." Its pretty clear to most fans that Rondo and Pierce were the two players carrying the offense through most of the season.

If Rondo is hurting the guy - they of course set picks for him to start things off. They have always done this. This is of course partly why you think running the ball through Rondo is a pancea. Doc though knows something about the NBA and continues to run the same sets.

What has happened to the Ray Allen 8 second play? You that golden oldie that Doc was havng us run where Ray runs around all of those screens, and hardly ever gets an open look off of it, but we do it anyways?

So because you saw less of a PLAY you don't like you think Doc Rivers changed his entire scheme? Yeah...umm I don't think so. Its the same offense. I think we can give coaches credit for actually feeding hot hands and going with what works.

The WINNING is coming with the kid out there running the show for us. More assists? Maybe you didn't spot it, but most of those passing clinic displays we have been putting on have STARTED with a Rondo pass, usually off of penetration. No pick, no pentration, Rondo, no clinic.

Its the same offense. It almost always starts with a Rondo entry pass. Actually a great many offensive sets start with a pass from your lead guard.<g> You know like flex or motion offenses which are what most modern NBA teams run (the C's included).

The C's make little attempt to KEEP the ball in Rondo's hands. He will make that pass EARLY in the shot clock and sometimes during the course of the natural progession the ball will come back to him. Either way its pretty clear if you have been paying attention its the same offense.

Again it's the same offensive sets and schemes run better, IMHO. I am dumbfounded how you could watch alot of basketball and think we are running different sets or have changed schemes. <g> I figured for most fans this was pretty obvious. But I guess I overstimated a couple of em based on this thread.

RyanF admitted as much when he said it was the technically the same offense. <g> Its the same offense.. Watch the Hornets and CP3 if you want to see a PG dominated offense.. There are not many out there though. The benefits you get from having a whole team of playmakers (like the Cs use) is that your offense is far less predictable and powerful.

For all the assists Rondo gets - he still gets less the half of the Celtics normal assist numbers. The C's average like 25 assists per game and Rondo gets 9. Rondo freely admits this when he talks about how he could average MORE assists if he got to handle the ball more.

An offense like this should involve cutting passing and shooting - without delay or stalling.

Did I say that they were running the ball EXCLUSIVELY through Rondo's hands, or that I wanted a point guard dominated offense? No, YOU said that I did. I think that my posts have very clearly outlined my opinion of how this offense should be run, and I have been saying it ALL ALONG, and now it is actually happening . That you cannot wrap your mind around that and resort to strawmen is YOUR issue, not mine.

The same plays are being run that have long been run in this offense, what matters is which plays and sets are being run MORE and which plays and sets are being run LESS. Not a really complicated idea. Rondo initiated stuff has taken over, and the other stuff is taking a backseat.

The problem with this being is that the pick and roll plays are too basic. These guys need to learn to play pick and roll basketball. Hell, Perk has barely a clue as to what he is supposed to do when he sets a pick for Rajon. It is sad. Usually our pick setters and ball handlers are the only ones moving when it is being run, which is BAD. Maybe Paul and Ray need people to be standing stock still to hit them with a pass, but Rondo is WAAAYYYY beyond them when it comes to that area of the game. He's a better passer with his left hand than either of them are with their right. Asses need to be moving.

"Showing up" had nothing to do with it. Rondo wasn't being "passive" when he came down the court and handed of to Paul and Ray. He was doing what Doc WANTED him to do. That should have been pretty obvious considering the complete absence of picks set for him in the first 6 minutes of the first quarter, game after game after game. He has picks set for him and, TA DA!!!! He's "aggressive" and the offense works. What a friggin joke.

Doc is the same dude who used to think going with three midgets on the court and SLOWING the game down was the way to go. He does whatever the hell he likes to, and acts as if its necessary until he is FORCED to change. The same guy who had his major personnel decisions made by injuries for years, bceause he was too stubborn or clueless to play the right guys to begin with.

Honestly, if you want to think that you wer "right" all along, go right on ahead. Rondo's got the ball now, and hopefully he'll actually be able to keep it. I'm cynical about that continuing knowing Doc's inclinations. He'll probably jump at the first opportunity to revert, and then we can all go back to blaming our defense for losing games which our offense should have won for us.

The same plays are being run that have long been run in this offense, what matters is which plays and sets are being run MORE and which plays and sets are being run LESS. Not a really complicated idea. Rondo initiated stuff has taken over, and the other stuff is taking a backseat.

Honestly I don't think you have a very good handle on how basketball plays work. How much organized basketball did you play growing up? That's the crux of the problem in this discussion. For the most part - offenses aren't "set" in stone they are flexible and adaptable depending on

Take a gander at this to understand..

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/MotionOffense.html

In short..it depends on what

1) What the opposition does to counter the scheme
2) What said player is able to do to against the oppostion.

Take a gander at this to understand better one system.

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/MotionOffense.html

So at the NBA level the offense doesn't generally call out "plays" for individual guys. Its a set of scenarios that happen depending on what the player does (ISO's would be the obvious exception). Players are given various options in the various systems (flex, triangle, motion) and they play within that system.

Doc hasn't changed our systems IMHO. The fact that Rondo might be operating better in it - or that KG and Allen might be executing in it better is great. But it doesn't mean that Doc CHANGED anything. As I said before Doc's system is fine. We just needed to execute it better. What you basically need for Doc's system is a set of high BBIQ players.

Pete

I can't believe we still have some posters who will take any opportunity to jump down Doc Rivers' throat and blame him for any and every problem with the Celtics. I was as big an advocate as any this offseason for practically giving Rondo a blank check as an extension and think Rondo is the future of the team. And I think the fact that, as Rondo plays better, the team plays better bears that thought out. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't take the bulk of the criticism for his struggles immediately after signing his extension. He was clearly a different player than he has been the last several games. For whatever reason, he had a lapse in confidence in his shooting, particularly his free throws, for a stretch. And he was going out of his way to avoid trips to the free throw line. I think it is pretty safe to say that when a player is in the middle of a 10 missed free throws streak, that player is not going to play as aggressively and look to get to the foul line. I remember one play where Rondo had a wide open lane to the basket, was basically in point blank lay-up range with no opponent close enough to contest it, and he passed to a teammate (I think Garnett) who had a defender on him (who ended up missing the basket but getting fouled). And Tom Heinsohn said flat out that Rondo HAS to take that shot. And when Tommy is criticizing a Celtic, you know there is an issue. Just be happy Rondo has turned the corner and has his confidence back. But I have a hell of a time seeing that as a coaching issue.

Good point. They are just desperate to be 'proven' right. So they made up their own 'evidence.' Doc was "mishandling' Rondo (because they think he can do no wrong). And if Rondo and the C's do better they feel he MUST have changed something. Sorry - but I just don't see it. It's the same offense, IMHO.

Pete

GuyClinch wrote:So at the NBA level the offense doesn't generally call out "plays" for individual guys. Its a set of scenarios that happen depending on what the player does (ISO's would be the obvious exception). Players are given various options in the various systems (flex, triangle, motion) and they play within that system.

Doc calls a hell of a lot of plays and funnels alot of isolation and two man pick-and-pop plays to Ray/Paul. These are outside of the 'normal offense'. Also outside of the normal offense is the high pick for Rondo (set above the 3 point line). That one's called by Doc. The triple screen where Ray runs around for 8 seconds--also called by Doc. When Doc gets into trouble (or the normal offense isn't functioning), he usually scraps the offense and goes to Ray/Paul...and if that isn't working, he might turn to Rondo. What GreenDreamer is saying (and what I agree with) is that it makes a hell of a lot of sense to go through Rondo when the normal offense isn't performing.

GuyClinch wrote:Doc hasn't changed our systems IMHO. The fact that Rondo might be operating better in it - or that KG and Allen might be executing in it better is great. But it doesn't mean that Doc CHANGED anything. As I said before Doc's system is fine. We just needed to execute it better. What you basically need for Doc's system is a set of high BBIQ players.

Pete

Pete, you keep clinging to a semantic ambiguity to prove your point. There's a system and then there's how it's used. You can have the same system, but run it differently or emphasize different things. Right? That's what's happened. What's the difference, you ask? The ratio of Ray/Paul plays to Rondo plays has changed--that is, the ratio of plays called by Doc for Ray/Paul and for Rondo has changed. Less isos with Ray/Paul, less of the two man game with Ray/Paul running the pick-and-roll, and more action with Rondo. Now, knowing Doc, I'd argue that this isn't even by design--it's just happened and we'll probably go away from it later (with the accompanying chorus of "Rondo's coasting again!"). Why has it happened? The team is moving bodies, setting screens and passing the ball. When Rondo initiates the offense, there's actually a good chance the ball will make it's way back to him and that somebody will pop up and give him a screen. That wasn't happening before. And poor old Doc, when the offense begins to 'function', takes that to mean that good Rondo has showed up--meaning that when we hit a low point in our offensive flow, good old Doc calls a high screen for Rondo, or has Rondo feed the post himself (instead of funneling the ball to Ray/Paul and watching them never feed the post but instead run a pick and roll which almost always results in a jumper).

These are subtle changes of emphasis and even the ones in charge (i.e., Doc) don't notice how better ball movement and player movement results in more play calls for Rondo. It's funny, but the opposite thing occurs as well--when we have bad ball movement and nobody setting picks, Doc 'counters' that by calling isolation and two-man pick and pops run by Ray/Paul...the very kind of plays which reinforce the very same poor ball and body movement that lead Doc to scrap his base offense in the first place. It's a feedback loop of retardedness. Luckily for us, we're in a positive feedback loop RIGHT NOW.

Pete, you keep clinging to a semantic ambiguity to prove your point. There's a system and then there's how it's used. You can have the same system, but run it differently or emphasize different things. Right? That's what's happened. What's the difference, you ask? The ratio of Ray/Paul plays to Rondo plays has changed--that is, the ratio of plays called by Doc for Ray/Paul and for Rondo has changed.

Nope. Again your selling Doc Rivers far short. This argument has zero to do with semantics. Despite what you think we actually play an opposing team that DEFENDS us. Doc uses plays (which merely START with a Rondo or Pierce or Allen or House or Daniels pick) depending on what the defense is doing to us. Its the same system. It's not really "Rondo" centric. In fact both Doc and Danny have spoken about how we don't NEED a PG in our system. This is what they are referring too. They have plays designed around any of the ball handlers.

Anyway the problem with your analysis is you give Doc zero credit. When he correctly identifies a teams weakness and goes after it with Rondo (perhaps a slow PG defender or bad centers that don't play good defense) and it works.. Your like OMG see thats what he should do ALL THE TIME! <g>

Problem is .... IT DOESN'T ALWAYS WORK. When we play say Orlando who has Dwight Howard helping on Rondo those Rondo plays get eaten ALIVE. So Doc naturally runs plays that start with a Paul Pierce pick..

Again Doc's system works fine. The fact that he adjusts it according to game situations is a something he has always done and something the Celtics always did in the past. You attack a defenses weak points. Your making the mistake of assuming plays that start with Rondo are always a good idea. They are not. When it came time to win that championship Doc went to plays that often started with a pick for Paul Pierce. It was FAR MORE EFFECTIVE against the LAKER defense. That not necessarily true with the Philly defense..

As soon as we lose a game running picks for say Pierce or Allen against a team like Orlando or Portland (with good mobile bigs) your go right back to your crying for more Rondo stuff having learned nothing. Rondo is not some pancea for the offense. He can be defended against pick and rolls quite well by intelligent teams. Not only that but teams WILL make adjustements to take an effective play away. Thus you need a multi-faceted offense that spreads plays around. Doc has that - and has always has that. Nothing has changed.

Your like the yahoos who complain that the Patriots need to run half the time - ignoring that some teams stack the line ..and dare your team to pass.

Whether its good for the team or not, and whoevers fault it is (Rondo, Doc, teammates, etc.), I wholehartedly agreed with the notion that our offense isn't particularly well suited for Rondo statistically. I feel like production wise PG more than any other position is highly dependent on coaching philosophies/offensive systems. Take a guy like Sergio Rodriguez who offensively is somewhat similar too rondo. Wasn't nearly as good on the ultra slow paced Blazers as he has been on a younger more up-tempo Kings. Lets face it the offense we run sets up a lot of situation where inevitably Rondo ends up with a jumpshot. I know teams go under the screen on Rondo, but it seems to me rondo still quick enough and a good enough decision maker to burn teams on it that we could run it more consistantly.

Lets face it the offense we run sets up a lot of situation where inevitably Rondo ends up with a jumpshot. I know teams go under the screen on Rondo, but it seems to me rondo still quick enough and a good enough decision maker to burn teams on it that we could run it more consistantly.

We shouldn't build an offense around a non-shooter. It works fine the way it is now. If Rondo learns to shooot a J then we will likely feature Rondo pick and rolls more especially in end of game situations. Since of course that's unlikley to actually happen just enjoy Rondo's hustle and ability to catch guys napping especially near the end of games.

Pete

GuyClinch wrote:
....

Anyway the problem with your analysis is you give Doc zero credit. When he correctly identifies a teams weakness and goes after it with Rondo (perhaps a slow PG defender or bad centers that don't play good defense) and it works.. Your like OMG see thats what he should do ALL THE TIME! <g>

If such cagey strategizing was part of Doc's makeup, we would have attacked Steve Nash all night long. But we didn't. That's just one example--I could go through our 1st 18 games and find probably 8 instances where CLEAR Rondo advantages went unexploited. Our EMPHASIS has been predicated on getting Ray/Paul off early, usually to the game-long misuse of Rondo. When and if Rondo gets off, it's usually on the back of some incredible 2nd, 3rd, or 4th quarter explosion, after Doc gets to the bottom of his Rolodex of offensive maneuvers.

Again, what you see as 'adjustment' I call 'predictability'. It's pretty predictable how we'll start out (straight up motion offense--usually resulting in jumpers). And, if that hits a bump, it's pretty predictable where we'll go next (isolate Paul, runs multiple picks for Ray, run a two man game with Paul and KG--all things that result in jumpers). And THEN, provided there's time left, we might get Rondo involved in some pick and rolls, and then BANG, Rondo's 'awoken' and we get back in the game, usually with easy buckets, transition hoops and overall better inside shots.

What I've seen the last 3-4 games is an overall improvement in ball movement and body movement, and a TON and I mean many many more picks in all facets of the offense. Now, this isn't a coaching change, or a different system...it's the fellas doing the little things better. And you know what? Better ball movement funnels the ball back to Rondo (instead of the ball sticking in Ray or Paul's hands), and more picks means that Rondo actually might get 2-3 picks set for him in a possession, something which my one quarter breakdown of our offense against the Magic showed results in inside scoring opportunities.

I recognize the motion offense is designed for multiple ball handlers and creators...and when we run it in an efficient manner, it also increases the chances that Rondo has to penetrate and create. That's what's happening right now.

The funny thing is, once we establish that ball movement, establish that Rondo's having a Rondo game, Doc, all of a sudden, starts calling picks for Rondo at the points in the game when we need a hoop. And you know what? Setting picks for Rondo actually gets the offense up and running again.

Contrast this with what was happening before the last week...we'd come out with no ball movement, low energy and some poor chemistry...what would Doc do? Force feed iso opportunities Ray and Paul's way. Unlike giving Rondo a screen (which is likely to lead to more screening and more ball movement, resulting in inside shots), giving Ray and Paul a screen leads to less ball movement, more jumpers, etc.

That's why I said in my last post that we have witnessed a positive and negative feedback loop. When we come out passing and moving and picking, that in turn gives Doc confidence in Rondo, leading to Rondo-ball calls from Doc when the offense stalls and when we need a bucket, which in turn usually leads to an improvement in ball movement and easy buckets. It's a positive feedback loop which self-corrects itself. Conversely, when we start out with bad ball movement and hardly any motion or picking, Doc tends to make coaching decisions and calls which reinforced those same things.

So, in essence, Doc stumbles upon good offensive calls when the team is already playing well...

GuyClinch wrote:Problem is .... IT DOESN'T ALWAYS WORK. When we play say Orlando who has Dwight Howard helping on Rondo those Rondo plays get eaten ALIVE. So Doc naturally runs plays that start with a Paul Pierce pick..

What doesn't work is that Doc doesn't have any self-consciousness about his own coaching tendencies. If he had really gone into that game fearing Howard and what he could have done to Rondo, he might have decided to strategically sub Rondo into the game when Howard was out. Actually, he did the exact opposite. For the 12 minutes that Howard was off the floor, Rondo was out too. So much for your theory of Doc's brilliance.

The thing about that Orlando game was simple. We had bad ball movement and hardly any picks were being set...as I showed when I broke down the Cs first 20 possession, 11 of our 13 first quarter points came off 7 possession where Rondo was given a pick. When Rondo didn't get a pick? We shot nothing but jumpers.

Interestingly enough, when Howard did go out of the game, the Cs were able to make a run by putting the ball in Paul's hands and letting him isolate and get to the rim. Even more so than Rondo, Howard renders Paul a jump shooter...and when he's not making them, we're going to be in trouble.

Of course, Doc saw this all as a coincidence...meaning that when the 4th quarter rolled around, he 'spread the court' and let Paul do his thing...forgetting that Paul's (and Ray's) best moments getting to the rim came when Howard was on the bench....while also forgetting that plays involving Rondo and a pick actually resulted in inside looks...even if those looks didn't come from Rondo layups or feeds for layups, the picking action itself served to start ball and body movement which eventually left the Orlando defense off kilter and allowed inside shots to occur. Again, Doc noticed none of this, and instead coached his way into an offensive philosophy that bet that we would eventually make a jumper...even on a night when we couldn't hit anything. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

This is not to jump on Doc's system. I'm jumping on his play calling tendencies, something he doesn't had enough sense to re-evaluate since the Big 3 were put in place.

GuyClinch wrote:Again Doc's system works fine. The fact that he adjusts it according to game situations is a something he has always done and something the Celtics always did in the past. You attack a defenses weak points. Your making the mistake of assuming plays that start with Rondo are always a good idea. They are not. When it came time to win that championship Doc went to plays that often started with a pick for Paul Pierce. It was FAR MORE EFFECTIVE against the LAKER defense. That not necessarily true with the Philly defense..

As soon as we lose a game running picks for say Pierce or Allen against a team like Orlando or Portland (with good mobile bigs) your go right back to your crying for more Rondo stuff having learned nothing. Rondo is not some pancea for the offense. He can be defended against pick and rolls quite well by intelligent teams. Not only that but teams WILL make adjustements to take an effective play away. Thus you need a multi-faceted offense that spreads plays around. Doc has that - and has always has that. Nothing has changed.

You haven't learned anything, Pete. Rondo can't be defended in a pick-and-roll. The pick-and-roll is actually one of the hardest plays to guard. Even when players lay off him, or successfully fight through a pick, the ball movement and body movement engendered is enough to get the job done in terms of overall offensive efficiency. It's not simply a matter of 'stopping' Rondo in a pick-and-roll situation...its recognizing what picking for Rondo does for the ENTIRE offense and also recognizing what putting the ball in Ray or Paul's hands doesn't do for the ENTIRE offense. You're too narrowly focused on simple end results equations which judge simply whether Rondo got to the rim or made an assist because of a pick..if you take a step back, judge the overall effect of what picking does TO THE ENTIRE TEAM, the effect is staggering, but it's something you've yet to even address in any of your replies. In many ways, you're stuck in the same box that Doc Rivers lives in--the one with seemingly logical progressions of schematic techniques starting from your best to your lesser players. That kind of industrialized, straight-forward, compartmentalized thinking has no place in basketball, a sport fundamentally built on a holistic philosophy where ultimate success is achieved by making 5 into 1. Yet, Doc consistently makes decisions which render 2-3 players into bystanders, intentionally breaking down the 5 to 1 connection to feed the ball to his scorers in isolation situations....all the while wondering "why is our ball movement bad" and "why is nobody moving". It's because Doc makes coaching decisions on the offensive end which ignore the holistic nature of basketball.

You haven't learned anything, Pete. Rondo can't be defended in a pick-and-roll. The pick-and-roll is actually one of the hardest plays to guard. Even when players lay off him, or successfully fight through a pick, the ball movement and body movement engendered is enough to get the job done in terms of overall offensive efficiency.

LMAO. Rondo can't be defended in the pick and roll? My god I hope I don't learn anything from you because you have no clue what you are talking about. <g> Every player can be defended but its especially easy to defend a pick and roll guy who is a poor shooter. Thank god we can leave the NBA coaching to Doc Rivers - a coach of the year and an NBA champion and former pro rather then watching Rondo fail at pick and rolls with that as our only offense.

Anyway we should let this thread die because we will never agree.

Pete

GuyClinch wrote:

You haven't learned anything, Pete. Rondo can't be defended in a pick-and-roll. The pick-and-roll is actually one of the hardest plays to guard. Even when players lay off him, or successfully fight through a pick, the ball movement and body movement engendered is enough to get the job done in terms of overall offensive efficiency.

LMAO. Rondo can't be defended in the pick and roll? My god I hope I don't learn anything from you because you have no clue what you are talking about. <g> Every player can be defended but its especially easy to defend a pick and roll guy who is a poor shooter. Thank god we can leave the NBA coaching to Doc Rivers - a coach of the year and an NBA champion and former pro rather then watching Rondo fail at pick and rolls with that as our only offense.

Anyway we should let this thread die because we will never agree.

Pete

Strawmen again, Pete? Is that all that your "opinion" is good for? How about some basic logic. How about some stats which back up your position? How about some practical observation? We have been running A LOT of pick and rolls for Rondo over the last 5 games, and no one has come close to stopping it being a reliable source of offense for this team. In fact, the Celtics went Rondo/KG pick and roll down the stretch run against the Spurs because it was the MOST reliable way to get a good shot off. Did you not see that?

The most convincing evidence of the veracity of my position and claims, that we have switched to a Rondo oriented offensive philosophy, is that fact that he has a +87 plus/minus over the last five games. That far and away leads the team. The team, though, has won the laast 5 games by a grand total of 47 points. Rondo has been averaging 33.6 minutes per game over the last 5, which means that they are averaging a -8, as a team, per game in the 14.4 minutes per game that Rondo is not on the floor.... that is awful. The wheels are falling off of the offense when he leaves the floor, not to mention the absence of his stellar defense.

This is, by the way, pretty much what happened last season during the 19 games winning streak, when Doc finally gave in and gave Rondo the ball. Not coincidentally, Pierce was almost invisible offensively for much of that streak, while KG, Ray and Perk, not to mention Rondo himself, were flying high. Sound familiar?

I'm going to devote a specific thread OP to the weird symbiotic relationship of Paul and Rondo, but Paul is struggling to adjust to the new flow, because he has the ball far less now with Rondo having more. The effectiveness of the new approach is validated by the offense's successes (at leasst with Rondo out there) against the last three opponents we have faced, all of whom are good to very good defensive teams, but none of whom who had a prayer against us with Rondo driving the team.

The offensive mindset has changed. They are emphasizing different sets.... which reminds me. I read your post about the sets and plays, and checked your links. I understood most of the stuff already, but learned a couple of things, so thanks. I think, though, that you have a mistaken view of the nature of this offense. When PJ Brown joined the team two years ago, he specifically mentioned that Doc's offense had 25 different sets, all of which had multiple options. That it was the most complex offense he had ever been a part of. That was back then. Doc has installed even MORE since then. This was a major reason behind the problems that Cassell and Marbury had when they joined the team. There was just too much for them to learn. I just wanted to be clear about that. This offense is far more complex than you are giving it credit for being, and the approaches that Doc has to choose from are not just a handful.

I consider the "plays" in this offense to be specific options in the sets that they run. Case in point, that pick for Ray, by Perk, which set up his dagger three against the Heat. They were showing Rondo/KG pick and roll, and the Heat overplayed it... bam, gotcha. Stuff that you run one or two times a game, within a set, or maybe once every other game, to catch a team off guard. Like the Rondo/KG ally oop plays, or deep post feeds to Pierce.

Rondo knows ALL of this stuff inside and out. He not only is a true point guard, and is in his fourth season with Doc, but he is WICKED SMAHT. A genius, really, when it comes to this stuff. Bird-like. Working through him is the right way to go.

Love Greendreamer and Ryaningf for explicating Rondo's virtues for so long, but the Doc blaming is slightly misplaced. Yes Doc is often willfully blind to Ray and Paul's weaknesses as playmakers, but he has to keep them engaged to keep them effective. Remember these guys are already sacrificing touches to each other, they're not going to sacrifice too much more to Rondo.

Strawmen again, Pete? Is that all that your "opinion" is good for? How about some basic logic. How about some stats which back up your position? How about some practical observation? We have been running A LOT of pick and rolls for Rondo over the last 5 games, and no one has come close to stopping it being a reliable source of offense for this team. In fact, the Celtics went Rondo/KG pick and roll down the stretch run against the Spurs because it was the MOST reliable way to get a good shot off. Did you not see that?

The impetus is on you to find the statistical evidence - as its you guys who foolishly believe our coach doesn't know what the heck he is doing.. <g> FWIW the back House/Daniels/Ray unit is actually a tad stronger then our starting unit statistically. So clearly - shock - we can score baskets without Rondo on the court. We can score baskets without Rondo starting the play too. Yes our three other HOF guys know how to play basketball as well..

I get you guys like Rondo. But we have many capable ball handlers at the various positions. This is why Doc lets those guys set up plays from time to time. Like i said before we average 25 assists a game but Rondo averages 9 of them.

“It starts with Rondo,” he said. “When our point guard is dictating the flow, turning the opposing point guard and getting everybody into the game - not just me but Paul (Pierce), Ray (Allen), Perk (Kendrick Perkins, and then he comes in with the second group, Rasheed (Wallace) and Eddie House, and gives them opportunity, it starts with the point.

“Rondo and I, it was just a flow,” Garnett added. “It starts with our point guard, and he controlled the flow from the beginning to the end. Just flowing with plays that just took eye contact, and he took the pace of the game and went.”


http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/bask ... ndos_play/