The symbiosis of Pierce and Rondo

[GreenDreamer]

I find that the weird mutual dependence of Paul and Rondo is one of the most overlooked aspects of this team. One would think, as I originally did, that Paul wouldn't reallyneed Rondo, and vice versa, but in reality they are our best on court tandem when it comes to winning basketball. They currentlly lead the team in player pair plus/minus

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus ... am=Celtics

yet if you look at the their individual plus/minuses, you will see what I am talking about

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus ... am=Celtics

Almost all of Rondo's plus/minus is coming with Paul, and Paul is taking an absolute bath in this stat when he isn't playing with Rajon. Somehow, some way, these two guys complement each other, and need each other. Ray is Mr. Ubiquitous. Can play with anyone, and do well with them. His ability to spread the floor as a supreme three point threat helps any lineup. Paul and Rondo, though, are guys who need specific lineup types around them to play their best. Play them with just anyone, and they can look bad. One could easily think that Paul plays "better" with a guy like House, or that Rondo is "better" with KG than with Paul, but the stats point to it being otherwise, and that didn't just start this season.

I first noticied this last season when Rondo missed two games with an ankle injury (both losses). I expected Paul to be OK, and Ray to be the guy who struggled, but the exact opposite was the case. Ray had one great game and one really good one. Paul looked uncomfortable and was pretty ineffective on both. He had his moments, but he just wasn't that good. It was then that I started monitoring how they looked without each other, and it became pretty obvious that when separated fom each other, the team tended to struggle. When they were together (with pretty much ANYONE else out there with them) the team did really well.

Why is this? I still can't put my finger on it? Rondo doesn't "space the floor" for Paul. Paul isn't exactly a dream target for Rajon ( he doesn't get out on the break much, rarely shoots on the catch, and tends to work out of iso). Here are my ideas as to why it could be

1. There is a big advantage inherent to an offense which has two elite penetration threats on the floor at the same time, who can create for others and score themselves. That such a situation makes an offense very difficult to handle.

2. That Paul needs someone to set him up in his spots, and that being asked to run an offense, which is usually what he is doing without Rondo in the game, just messes him up.

3. That Rondo does better with "playmaking sidekick" who can take some of the heat off of him when needed.

4. That they are our two best perimeter defenders, and that being together has advantages all its own for that reason.

It could be something else, I don't know. All I do know is that these two guys apparently need each other. The weird thing is that when we run our offense through Rondo in the way that we have been for the last 5 games, Paul can tend to completely disappear from games on the offensive end. It happened last season too. It isn't that he doesn't get the ball passed to him. He seemingly will get out of rhythm and make bad decisions --turning down open looks in the flow of the offense especially. That this is happening, however, DOES NOT change the fact that the team plays better when BOTH are playing together, and that they will both tend to struggle more when separated from each other.

Any thoughts on this?

[GuyClinch]

I don't agree at all. They have been our two best players most of the year. So naturally when they are together we play much better. But that doesn't mean they particularly complement each others playing style or they "need" each other.

Nor do I agree that Paul struggles so mightly without Rondo on offense. He sets up other people fairly well and as an elite one on one player sets himself up quite well. He usually draws double teams and when he doesn't he can often score himself.

Rondo would be better served by more skilled uptempo players like say Iggy on Philly - and Paul Pierce would likely prefer a better shooter to punish guys who double team him - like a Nash. As far as PP "disappearing" he frequently does that when he isn't needed. With KG coming around and RA occasionally playing kinda like Ray Allen - we don't need him to dominate games. He is more then happy to save his legs for the long season..

[GreenDreamer]

You don't agree at all? What a shock.

[GuyClinch]

You don't agree at all? What a shock.

I don't think your analysis is well reasoned..

Ray is Mr. Ubiquitous. Can play with anyone, and do well with them. His ability to spread the floor as a supreme three point threat helps any lineup

Doc seems to have just the opposite view. PP is the guy that usually anchors the second unit (and hence his bad stats without Rondo - he gets to play without Rondo-Perkins-KG and Ray!. And then he brings in Rondo when Pierce sits down (and usually brings in Ray too).

So he feels that Rondo and Pierce are the two guys who can play without as much "help" and benefit any lineup. This is the opposite of what you speculate.. And likely the reason for your statistics.

Again i agree with Doc from just watching the team..

Pete

[grantlongforpresident]

I agree with GuyClinch. Stats are often misinterpreted.

[drza]

I think the stats are just an early season anomaly while KG gets healthy, to be honest.

Last season Rondo had his highest +/- pairing with KG*, and Pierce also had his highest +/- pairing with KG* (* = among the starting line-up, as both actually had highest pairings per minute overall with Scal): http://www.82games.com/0809/0809BOSP.HTM

in 07-08 Rondo had his highest +/- pair with Perk and Pierce had his with KG again. http://www.82games.com/0708/0708BOSP.HTM

While I appreciate the effort that you put into the analysis, I just don't see the long-term symbiosis between Rondo and Pierce.

[exculpatory]

I don't agree at all. They have been our two best players most of the year. So naturally when they are together we play much better. But that doesn't mean they particularly complement each others playing style or they "need" each other.

Nor do I agree that Paul struggles so mightly without Rondo on offense. He sets up other people fairly well and as an elite one on one player sets himself up quite well. He usually draws double teams and when he doesn't he can often score himself.

Rondo would be better served by more skilled uptempo players like say Iggy on Philly - and Paul Pierce would likely prefer a better shooter to punish guys who double team him - like a Nash. As far as PP "disappearing" he frequently does that when he isn't needed. With KG coming around and RA occasionally playing kinda like Ray Allen - we don't need him to dominate games. He is more then happy to save his legs for the long season..

Pete is right on the money - as per highlighted text.

[Banks2Pierce]

I feel like I have seen this stat in the play. Good post. The issue is that Doc has been trying to get Pierce do the majority of the ball handling for the second unit and that is just not a sound plan. There is a reason that the second unit has much better stats when Ray is with them, as opposed to Pierce. You would think that Ray/House would be a bad pair, but that lineup has been winning their time on the court, while the Pierce led second unit is not.

I feel Pierce is best when he has limited interference, limited action around him and he can just do his moves in short 2-5 second bursts, as opposed to facilitating the offense. When Rondo's in, it is much easier to go about this since he is such a good handler.

[Banks2Pierce]

Pierce with the second unit: 4-7 in 48 minutes
Ray with the second unit: 9-2 in 58 minutes

[sully00]

I think Banks2Pierce has it the second unit is much more suited to Ray's game than Paul's at the moment.

I know it is contrary to the idea that the world revolves around Rondo but he is still more about his play as an individual impacting the team than he somehow making others great. He does a great job of getting Perk the ball in position to score and is very focused on getting KG on track.

I am not surprised that they play well together especially with Rondo being more active offensively but I would guess that Pierce has the fewest baskets assisted by Rondo on that first unit, and I don't really have any idea how to put that together.

[ryaningf]

I feel like I have seen this stat in the play. Good post. The issue is that Doc has been trying to get Pierce do the majority of the ball handling for the second unit and that is just not a sound plan. There is a reason that the second unit has much better stats when Ray is with them, as opposed to Pierce. You would think that Ray/House would be a bad pair, but that lineup has been winning their time on the court, while the Pierce led second unit is not.

I feel Pierce is best when he has limited interference, limited action around him and he can just do his moves in short 2-5 second bursts, as opposed to facilitating the offense. When Rondo's in, it is much easier to go about this since he is such a good handler.

I think Ray had a good run with the 2nd unit early in the season where he, House, and Sheed were hitting at a mad 3 point percentage and that's skewed these Ray-and-Paul-with-the-2nd-unit #s considerably. It's more accurate to say neither Ray nor Paul should facilitate the offense, but that both can get away with it against lesser teams, which has been the case throughout the last 2 1/4 seasons.

[GuyClinch]

^^^You mean lessor teams like the Lakers during the championship? LMAO. I don't know why Rondo's excellent playmaking has become a reason to denigrate the playmaking of PP - but it's misguided. PP had some nice passes last night that led to some easy scores - and so did Rondo. <g>