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Kobe is a player whose game I do not love. I think he takes too many shots given the overall talent of his team. Seeing too many box scores where he shoots 30 shots to get 36 pts or so while Gasol gets his 24 on 13 shots combined with his personality, his demeanor and his off the court issues have really soured me on him. It irks me when he gets the adoration of media, players and coaches alike. Clearly, if you just watch him play apart from his stats you can see that his talent level is off the charts and he truly has the best ability plus skill in game. But is his impact the best? Does his selfish play make him less than he could be?

However, when you compare him now - as he is generally regarded as the best in the game - to Jordan and Bird at similar ages when they were regarded as the best in the game at a similar age (30-31), it is interesting.

Kobe: 29.8 ppg, 23 fga/g, FG% 48, 3PT% 29, FT% 84, RPG 5.8 APG 4.3 Steals 2.24 TO 3.2

MJ (94-95) - [first of 3 championships after baseball hiatus]
30 ppg, 22 fga/g, FG% 50, 3PT% 43, FT% 83, RPG 6.6, APG 4.2, Steals 2.2, TO 2.0

Bird (86-87) Year following great championship team.
28.1 ppg, 20 fga/g, FG% 53, 3PT% 40, FT% 91, RPG 9.2, APG 7.6 Steals 1.8, TO 3.2

I have to say I was surprised to see that at the peak of their careers, Bird was so obviously the best of all 3 in terms of statistics and as a fantasy league player. Still, as far as ball hogging goes..... Kobe isn't any more of one than MJ or Bird although Bird did take less shots and had many more assists than the other 2.

I hate to harsh on Bird but IMHO defense has improved alot since those days. Kevin Mchale would score 20+ points at a nearly 60% clip.. Both McHale and Bird would do fine nowadays don't get me wrong.

So yeah Bird was the best numbers wise but those guys played against smarter defenses. Kobe has to play against psuedo zones which are the toughest of them all..

Pete

GuyClinch wrote:I hate to harsh on Bird but IMHO defense has improved alot since those days. Kevin Mchale would score 20+ points at a nearly 60% clip.. Both McHale and Bird would do fine nowadays don't get me wrong.

So yeah Bird was the best numbers wise but those guys played against smarter defenses. Kobe has to play against psuedo zones which are the toughest of them all..

Pete

I'm not sure defenses are better now, at least in defending someone like Bird. These "psuedo zones" would get picked apart by a smart, good passing team, which doesn't exist these days, at least consistently anyways. Now, one can make the argument that players today are more athletic, stronger, faster, etc... which is valid, however, Bird never relied on any of that, although he was much more athletic than people give him credit for. I truly feel that against today's defenses, Bird would average about 15 APG. His scoring may go down a bit, but as soon as they doubled him, you just know someone is getting an easy two. Passing was Bird's greatest attribute, IMO. To beat a zone defense, you need to pass, and Bird would pick today's teams apart.

Defenses are absolutely better now. Heard a great line recently in an interview with the Warriors color guy, Jim Barnett (a former Celtics draft pick). He said that the biggest difference between today's game and past eras is that it used to be team offense and 1-on-1 defense and now it is 1-on-1 offense and team defense.

Offensive fundamentals may be lacking, and this may set the purists off. But OTOH, defenses win championships. Whether it is the result of coaches overcoaching with defensive schemes and making players watch too much game tape, or just quicker, stronger players that can recover even if they make a defensive mistake, or both, defenses are just better these days.

Progress isn't always that, but IMO, it's just a tougher league these days. What is lost in fundamentals is more than made up for in talent, athleticism and speed.

Now as to the players, I am wary of the myth. They are all good, but judging them purely on abilities, I say Kobe > MJ > Bird. Jordan over Bird should be obvious to anyone not wearing Celtics underoos at the moment, so put that one aside.

Kobe, for his part, does not get enough credit for being a cold-blooded assassin (see the end of last night's game for evidence). He is every bit the other two's equal in this regard, and he has hundreds of big shots over the last decade to prove it. He has 4 rings and counting, and it probably should already be 5 had Malone's hammy held up vs the Pistons (or 6 had his teammates not turtled up against us in 2007). And unlike Jordan, he had to win these titles while playing against legitimate teams like the Spurs, Blazers and Kings.

I think he is actually less selfish than Jordan (whose teammates hated him, BTW), as good as Jordan defensively (Bird does not make the cut here), and less reliant than MJ on just winning games at the FT line. Has better range and better body control.

Of course, they are all just waiting for LeBron to pass them all.

^ Im sorry but Kobe is no where near as cold blooded as Jordan or Bird.

well out of those three birds stats are surprising I would have pick jordan but after seeing those stats, I have to go bird.
I'd like to see magics stats or russell stats as well.
However saying that Jordan has more rings and had far worse teams outside the dennis rodman, kukoc teams so to me Jordan is 2nd best player of all time Russell being the 1st.
And I don't buy the playing in different era bull poop as saying someone is worse than todays game, todays game is heavily relied on bad refs and free agents hoping ship. I will concede that technology and the athletes are all around better but the IQ and heart are way down.

kaiiu2324 wrote:^ Im sorry but Kobe is no where near as cold blooded as Jordan or Bird.

Kobe is more cold-blooded than Jordan, Bird, and Charlie Murphy.

And defenses are much better now to whomever said it first.

Comparing Bird against Kobe and Jordan is difficult because Bird's Boston teams were structured in a way that he was consistently surrounded with talent. Jordan and Kobe had short stretches where their teams weren't competitive at all, even missing the playoffs in some cases. Jordan and Kobe (and Lebron) developed an unparalleled "cold-bloodedness" from having to do it all to win. Literally, drop 50 and 10 to be competitive on a given night. Bird never really had to do that because his teams were consistently good.

I don't think the 94-95 year was one of Jordan Chamionship years so.....

In Bird's rookie year the Celtics team wasn't very good. There were some big names on the team but those guys were pretty much washed up and at the end of their lines. 61 wins, not bad. This is a good argument. Usually people like to argue who had the best career, in which case you'd have to say MJ>Bird>Kobe. But comparing the three at their absolute peaks is a nice wrinkle. You really can't go wrong with any of them.

Kobe isn't on Bird or Jordan's level. The problem with Kobe is that people mistake skill for productivity. One can make the argument that Kobe was more skilled than Jordan but at no point was he ever as productive as Jordan or really Bird, likely b/c his physical attributes were never quite as good. In particular he is quite a bit less athletic than Jordan and way shorter than Bird, putting a cieling on what he could accomplish in nonscoring categories.

some one above me speaks of Kobe and Jordan having to do it all...............LMAO!!!!

Yeah bird had talent and HOFers round him....but so did Kobe and Jordan...try Shaq, Malone, Payton, Ron Harper, Rock Fox, horry, fisher, odom, ariza, gasol, bynum, Ron Arrest....and jordan had pippen, ron harper, the worm, bill cartright, grant amongst others.......

I think youl lfind all championship and top teams have strong rosters.....

I'm a hard core Bulls fan since the Jordan era and I really believe that the defense back then was much tougher because the NBA allowed hand checking. The style of play was waaay more physical back then and they made sure that players earned their points. The current style of the NBA is more offensive and they are calling too many ticky tack fouls on players. It's hard enough to guard a star player but it's even harder to guard the star players when the refs benefit the star players most of the time.

I hate to admit it but there are too many players these days who complain too much about getting fouled everytime, flopping, and can't man up like during the golden years of basketball during the 80's and 90's.

Hey Guys, some interesting points in this thread. Can't really say much about Bird because I didn't witness his play first hand. Jordan is by all means the standard by which players are judged these days and for good cause. Having observed Kobe from his rookie year till now, I would like to mention a couple of things. First of all as great as Jordan was, I just don't remember him displaying the level of do whatever it takes mentality to win games (Although the flu game was legendary). I mean Kobe is playing with broken fingers on his shooting hand like it's not a big deal. In the last game against Sacramento the guy injures his shooting elbow. Goes into the locker room, comes back, passes with his left hand, rebounds with the left. Then hits, two back to back 3's in the 2nd overtime. It's true that Kobe had Shaq for the first 3 rings. But people always focus on the finals where Shaq dominated the East deprived big men. During the west playoffs Kobe would destroy stacked teams like Portland, San Antonio, and Sacramento. Also, people always say that Kobe is selfish, but during the Shaq period the guy basically toned down his game for the success of the team. I don't think Jordan's ego would ever allow that.

kaiiu2324 wrote:^ Im sorry but Kobe is no where near as cold blooded as Jordan or Bird.

Another classic post by kaiiu18585whatever.

LA Titletown wrote:

kaiiu2324 wrote:^ Im sorry but Kobe is no where near as cold blooded as Jordan or Bird.

Another classic post by kaiiu18585whatever.

This is no shot at Kobe. Put were talking about MJ and Bird here.Lol why do Kobe fans have to come here with some bs. Kobes peak or productivity was no where near these two.

^^^^
Agreed. Kobe shouldn't be mentioned in the same topic as Jordan and Bird.

Yeah. I dont see how Lakers fans take it as some type of insult when people when people say Kobe isnt top 10 all time. He's somewhere between 10-15. He'll players should be honored to even crack 100 All time to tell you the truth.

How good would Kobe and Jordan be if they were average athletically? For a player that was average athletically, Bird was the best greatest player of all time. If Bird had the same athletic ability as Jordan or Kobe, he would be much better than both of those guys.

Bird is still better than Kobe because Bird made the players around him better. Jordan was better than Bird for most of his career, but between 1984-1987, no one was better than Bird, not even Jordan.

return2glory wrote:How good would Kobe and Jordan be if they were average athletically? For a player that was average athletically, Bird was the best greatest player of all time. If Bird had the same athletic ability as Jordan or Kobe, he would be much better than both of those guys.

Bird is still better than Kobe because Bird made the players around him better. Jordan was better than Bird for most of his career, but between 1984-1987, no one was better than Bird, not even Jordan.

Magic Johnson was a better overall player than Bird and not a freak athlete by any means. Bird himself believes this to be the case.

hourockman wrote:Magic Johnson was a better overall player than Bird and not a freak athlete by any means. Bird himself believes this to be the case.

Bird and Magic are close and definitely the best 2 I've ever seen. Magic gets underrated for some reason since he didn't score or shoot like the other guys, but he's right there with Bird. Jordan was more selfish and was propped up by referees and weak competition more than anyone else, that drops him to 3rd. If you look at the stats, Jordan only touched Bird for a couple of years around '90, '91. Kobe has all of Jordan's qualities but amplified - maybe more athletic, better shooter, maybe even better defender, but also somehow MORE selfish, and that puts him a step behind Jordan.

LeBron needs a little more consistency on his jumper, but his stats rival '90, '91 Jordan, and well, 1980-88 Bird as basically the best ever. So he could catch them eventually. Kobe never will.

Russell and Wilt and Robertson are right there with Bird and Magic but it's harder for me to rate them since I didn't see them. Honestly, Russell is probably the greatest of all.