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This last cold streak is getting to be too much, as has been beaten to death; but I still feel like he could be useful in a more secondary role, especially with more rest.

I remember how Reggie Miller became more of a supporting guy in his last few years with the Pacers, and was a very useful complementary players.

(At the same time, Reggie's not retiring strained the budget, and made them dump Brad Miller among others; and he shot 32-36 percent on 3's in 3 of his last 5 years.)

The old "make him the 6th man" reeks of Ainge/McHale going to the bench for Pinckney and Gamble; a distasteful reminder of the original big 3's decline.

But I can't help but feel that keeping Ray as a 2nd unit and acquiring a starter by other means would be better than trying to trade him straight up for a replacement. Any kind of athlete with a corner 3 who could defend might work for now; where is the modern Bruce Bowen? Or the next Josh Howard or Reggie Lewis in the late 1st rounder - our greatest hope is Ainge finding that guy; maybe that's why he reached for Giddens.

He's just tired since Quisy has been out for a while. Once he comes back, combined with TA, Ray will be fresher and play better.

SonicYouth34 wrote:He's just tired since Quisy has been out for a while. Once he comes back, combined with TA, Ray will be fresher and play better.

Marquis is the kind of guy who I'm talking about, to a certain extent...but I don't have a great feeling about him anymore; he felt like a taller, smarter TA, which sounds pretty good on paper - but he hasn't really had TA's aggressiveness and doesn't seem rugged enough as a defender; and the lack of a jumpshot hurts. But I always liked him a lot in Dallas; hopefully he was just shaky because of the injuries early on.

Overall I just don't see a way to trade Ray Allen. I think that Ray is a much better basketball player than Reggie ever was, essentially Ray in Boston is what Reggie was his whole career 18/3/3 guy. I think that the contract situation and how it impacts his family is on Ray's mind and is affecting his shooting, and until that trade deadline comes it is going to be on his mind.

I don't think Boston needs to move on from Ray or send him to the bench, they need to stop paying him 19 million bucks andthat will happen. But they will struggle to do better for 8-10 mil a season. I think the need is an instant offense combo guard off the bench, Barbosa would be the guy. Though Tony Allen is screwing that up again by picking the perfect 15-20 game stretch to live up to his ability and make everyone realize how sweet having an instant defense 6th man can be. Of course about 11 mins after the trade deadline he will either shred a knee or kill someone.

sully00 wrote: Though Tony Allen is screwing that up again by picking the perfect 15-20 game stretch to live up to his ability and make everyone realize how sweet having an instant defense 6th man can be. Of course about 11 mins after the trade deadline he will either shred a knee or kill someone.

Agreed. As good as he's looked, I'm not falling for it, I'd ship him out in an instant if we had a decent replacement coming.

As much as his slashing and defense against combo guards are exactly what we need - he also compounds our worst problems which are bricking jump shots, foolish turnovers, and lack of size at the 2/3. As much as he offers he also taketh away. To me, he finally and irrevocably wore out his welcome in the Chicago series, and now he's just hanging around since we don't have better options.

Yeah I can't give up on TA, not ironically I work with troubled teenagers, but I also am not going to bank my championship hopes on him either.

I'm fine with Allen going into a significant bench role, but it's got to be really affordable.

The main thing I struggle with, is just where the replacement starter is going to come from? Similar situation with Pierce and KG, it would be great to slide them into more secondary roles as they age and they go to more affordable contracts, but other than signing MLE's to be starters (which to me seems pretty much the way to become mediocre as a team) I'm puzzled how the replacements are going to come in. No cap room. I don't see any of the young bench guys developing to significant starter quality, the Celtics draft choices are again this year not going to be prime quality unless they pull out a gem. Group all the existing young guys up as a package, and I don't think it would net something good, a championship caliber starter.

I think Ainge really has his work cut out for him to retool the Celtics.

^yes he does have his work cut out...beyond Rondo and Perk, there are no quality starters waiting in the wings on this team when the Big 3 are gone...

Or we could keep him and start him until he is no longer a good starter. People get down on him but i'd wager he is better than half the starting 2 guards in the league right now.

^agreed

Hemingway wrote:Or we could keep him and start him until he is no longer a good starter. People get down on him but i'd wager he is better than half the starting 2 guards in the league right now.

OK, so why not try to land one of the guys who are in the half better than him? I'm sure one of those 15-16 guys is available.

Dave_From_NB wrote:I'm fine with Allen going into a significant bench role, but it's got to be really affordable.

The main thing I struggle with, is just where the replacement starter is going to come from? Similar situation with Pierce and KG, it would be great to slide them into more secondary roles as they age and they go to more affordable contracts, but other than signing MLE's to be starters (which to me seems pretty much the way to become mediocre as a team) I'm puzzled how the replacements are going to come in. No cap room. I don't see any of the young bench guys developing to significant starter quality, the Celtics draft choices are again this year not going to be prime quality unless they pull out a gem. Group all the existing young guys up as a package, and I don't think it would net something good, a championship caliber starter.

I think Ainge really has his work cut out for him to retool the Celtics.

To me this is at least half of the rationale for trading Ray. If a Hinrich/Tyrus Thomas or Iggy/Dalembert trade is legitimately out there and we are one of 3-4 buyers in a sellers market, how can we not jump at a chamce to get multiple younger, starter quality players in return. The alternative is basically to let an expiring, decling asset either leave for nothing without a replacement or resign possible/likely for more than he is worth and have no replacements for any of our big three. Its pretty clear to me this is the last year the big 3 have even a chance to win the whole thing. IMO from a GM standpoint you had better be pretty dang sure that its just coming backfrom injuries, or pacing or whatever, to not try to parlay Ray's contract into something.

Iggy is a class above Hinrich - I don't know why the guy gets so discounted around here. Hinrich OTOH is borderline bad. 38% from the field..not much vertical.. Pretty decent defensively and heady but not in Iggy's class at all..

I think if ray plays less minutes and move his game inside the 3 point line (2 feet) then he will be a much better scorer.

For comparisons sake Per 36 mins for their career

Hinrich 14/3.5/6 41% 3P38% eFG 48% 2 years 17 mil

Iguodala 15/5.5/4 46% 3P32% eFG 50% 4 years 60 mil

I wouldn't argue that Hinrich is better than Iguodala but maybe a better fit for Boston. Hinrich has spent his career bouncing between two positions to accommodate teamates strengths and weaknesses as well as in and out of the starting line up. Iggy has been the man, the guy the team had to clear other players out for. Hinrich is a PG who can play SG while Iggy is a SF who is a good playmaker. Iggy is going to struggle developing a catch and shoot game, or coexisting with Pierce on the floor while fitting in is what Hinrich has done his whole career. To replace Pierce I would want Iguodala to replace Ray I want HInrich.

That said the real important part is the rest of the deal. Dalembert is awful, forget the numbers for a second here because his aren't terrible but his game is just worthless, he has no impact and owed 13 mil for next season. Conversely in the Bulls trade you are talking about player who is somewhat underachieved but clearly plays with impact he just doesn't play enough for whatever reasons and is on QO of 6.2 mil.

Can anyone really stomach the idea of paying 26 mil in salary and tax for Dalembert?

UGA Hayes wrote:To me this is at least half of the rationale for trading Ray. If a Hinrich/Tyrus Thomas or Iggy/Dalembert trade is legitimately out there and we are one of 3-4 buyers in a sellers market, how can we not jump at a chamce to get multiple younger, starter quality players in return.

Geez...I would say Hinrich is barely starter quality, and Thomas isn't starter quality yet (still is potential star quality, but this guy is practically a reclamation project; I bet he could be had with the MLE).

"Starter quality" doesn't mean jack to us if we're trading Ray. We need star quality. Trading an aging star for a young mediocrity doesn't help rebuild at all.

Hinrich is strictly an expensive but good backup; but he might be a luxury.

sully00 wrote:Can anyone really stomach the idea of paying 26 mil in salary and tax for Dalembert?

To get a young All star quality guy in Iguodala, I would take on a decent starting center who has the length and athleticism we lack, no doubt. Dalembert is solid, just doesn't have a great head on his shoulders (I have never seen anyone goaltend more). But Rondo could throw alley oops to him all day that KG and Perk can't get to; he'd be a great fit as a long athletic complement to Perk. Crazy expensive but worthwhile.

I have a bad attitude towards Iguodala but would those who think he is good what do you think of him compared to Deng?

sully00 wrote:Overall I just don't see a way to trade Ray Allen. I think that Ray is a much better basketball player than Reggie ever was, essentially Ray in Boston is what Reggie was his whole career 18/3/3 guy. I think that the contract situation and how it impacts his family is on Ray's mind and is affecting his shooting, and until that trade deadline comes it is going to be on his mind.

Wow. Just wow. Reggie Miller was the single most efficient #1 option EVER, in the history of the NBA. The guy gets no respect for what he was, which was one of the most valuable scorers in the league during his prime. No, he didn't put up the pure volume stats, but he easily could have at the cost of some of his efficiency. His teams were better for it, and if the guy ever had a legitimate supporting cast he'd of won a ring along the way.

Ray Allen of the last two years was what Reggie was at his absolute worst; a very efficient third option. Reggie Miller has NEVER been as mediocre as Ray Allen has been this year.

GeraldGreen5 wrote:

sully00 wrote:Overall I just don't see a way to trade Ray Allen. I think that Ray is a much better basketball player than Reggie ever was, essentially Ray in Boston is what Reggie was his whole career 18/3/3 guy. I think that the contract situation and how it impacts his family is on Ray's mind and is affecting his shooting, and until that trade deadline comes it is going to be on his mind.

Wow. Just wow. Reggie Miller was the single most efficient #1 option EVER, in the history of the NBA. The guy gets no respect for what he was, which was one of the most valuable scorers in the league during his prime. No, he didn't put up the pure volume stats, but he easily could have at the cost of some of his efficiency. His teams were better for it, and if the guy ever had a legitimate supporting cast he'd of won a ring along the way.

Ray Allen of the last two years was what Reggie was at his absolute worst; a very efficient third option. Reggie Miller has NEVER been as mediocre as Ray Allen has been this year.

is that you Cheryl?