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This year's Celtics team reminds me of this year's Patriots team. For all the squawking about their defense and injured RBs, did anyone else notice that Tom Brady couldn't hit the side of a BARN past 5 yards this year?

If the biggest strength of your team isn't even a strength, at the end of the day, you aren't going anywhere. And that is right where the Celts find themselves now. This team is built around 3 guys who are glorified role players at this point (OK, PIerce has maybe another year before that happens, but you get the point). Haven't had a quality win since XMas, and we are 0-7 against other top teams since that point.

It's aint Sheed, it ain't the bench, and no collection of role players subtracted or added is going to get us back on top. Please consider this possibility as we approach the trade deadline. Thank you.

and furthermore the Cs problems won't be solved by adding other teams' bench players like Hinrich and/or salmons or nocioni

I don't think Ray Allen is going anywhere. Given that, we don't have the assets to acquire any stars.

LanFill wrote:I don't think Ray Allen is going anywhere. Given that, we don't have the assets to acquire any stars.

Could be true, but if that's the case, we could be going full rebuild soon.

Definitely- the NBA is a league predicated on its stars. The team will only go as far as our starting 5 takes us. If you have a good starting five, or a great one like we used to have, then that energy is contagious- it passes down to the role players and the coaches. We don't have that anymore. We don't have a go to guy. Pierce is the closest thing to one- and at times he is- but I don't feel like its enough most of the time.

Ray Allen- good role player at this point in his career- maybe great if he was actually able to have that role on the team.

Kevin Garnett- borderline all star to all star impact- still gives good defense, tremendous passer, but not anywhere near dominant.

Paul Pierce- borderline all star to all star impact- still very good, but can't take over games like he used to be able to. Like Garnett, some days, he's clearly a star out there, some days the age starts to show. It's hard to judge Pierce though- he doesn't shoot that much or drive as much, but he's still a very efficient player.

Rondo- all star. Plays like an all star a ton of the time, looks like the best player often, but not yet a great advantage for us against teams like the Lakers/Magic- both teams still use the sag off/roam tactic well against him.

Captain_Caveman wrote:

LanFill wrote:I don't think Ray Allen is going anywhere. Given that, we don't have the assets to acquire any stars.

Could be true, but if that's the case, we could be going full rebuild soon.

I have a feeling, that unless we can make a trade for someone like Iguodala where we extend our window, we're looking at this year and maybe next year as our last years contending. After that, Danny will probably look to rebuild on the fly around Rondo and Pierce (hopefully better than Detroit did around Stuckey and Hamilton) in the 2011 offseason. It's pretty clear, that despite Paul's great year (which is a shame to think that it's being wasted) the rest of the vets are on the decline and barely passable as stars now. Ray will probably be brought back for two years this offseason, then his, Sheed's and KG's expirings will be used as bait. Pierce would be given the clear heads up that we'll be rebuilding, and since he'll be a free agent, he can do as he pleases.

I'd like to assume we're going to try to contend as long as Paul is playing, but if Danny was serious about trading the old big three once they were over the hill, we're probably going into rebuild mode very soon.

Most importantly, we need youth... A good point I'd raised, while thinking out loud yesterday, was the differences in ages when Boston acquired Ray and Garnett and the Lakers acquired Odom and Gasol. What I noticed that was interesting was the differences in the ages from the time they were acquired to where they're now. And how that is having an affect on the success or decline of both teams.


Key acquisitions/signings

2007

Boston acquires Ray Allen from Seattle in June 2007. He was thirty-one.

Boston acquires Kevin Garnett from Minnesota in July 2007. He was thirty-one.

2009

Boston signs Rasheed Wallace in July 2009. He was thirty-four.


Key acquisitions/signings

2004

Los Angeles acquires Lamar Odom from Miami in July 2004. He was twenty-four.

2008

Los Angeles acquires Pau Gasol from Memphis in February 2008. He was twenty-seven.

2009

Los Angeles signs Ron Artest in July 2009. He was twenty-nine.



The most important players on Boston.

Pierce - 10/13/77 - 32
Garnett - 5/19/76 - 33
Ray - 7/20/75 - 34
Rondo - 2/22/86 - 23
Perkins - 11/10/84 - 25
Wallace - 11/17/74 - 35

The most important players on the Lakers.

Kobe - 8/23/78 - 31
Gasol - 7/6/80 - 29
Odom - 11/6/79 - 30
Artest - 11/13/79 - 30
Bynum - 10/27/87 - 22



Judging by this, the Lakers are poise to maintain a high level of excellence for a while longer. On the other hand, the same can't be said for Boston. But, it would depend on your perspective. Depending on what Kobe decides... I believe he can opt-out after this season. Everyone of most importance for the Lakers are signed for the next three or four years. Conversely, there exist a level of uncertainty with Boston. Rondo's the only player signed longterm. While Garnett and Wallace are signed for the next two seasons, and Pierce and Perkins for one. But Ray, with his expiring contract, remains the big question mark.

Boston has one emerging young star in Rondo but you can't expect to succeed with only him in the foreseeable future. Because Perkins is more of a good role player.

I love the idea of trading Ray now for some young swingman (Iggy, Kevin Martin, Caron Butler; in that order) but I just don't see it happening.

Danny always said he would have traded pieces of the original Big 3 away once they were old, breaking down and not winning titles anymore, but recently on WEEI he said he thinks that the difference this time around is that this Big 3 can still win a title (or two, etc). So, I don't think Danny will make a significant move unless everyone is 100% healthy and we continue to lose at this rate right up to the deadline OR Pierce/KG goes down with an injury that will keep them sidlined at least 2 months.

Plus, outside of a 'Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol'-like move, we don't really have the pieces to get a star. This is partly due to the fact that the young guys at the end of the bench just don't get enough time on the floor to showcase themselves.

I think we just have to accept that this will be another year where we sign an over-the-hill vet off of waivers to fill a spot on the bench for the playoffs.

Yep. PP and KG are nostalgia, not legit, All-Stars at this point, which means the C's have just the one All-Star in RR--trying to carry the team.

RR can't carry any team. He is a very good player but guy who "carry" teams need to be able to score themselves at a prolific pace.. Hell Bill Russell might have been the best player on the Celtics but he didn't carry them either..

Ultimately, the original poster is correct, the team needs stars. Regardless of how this season plays out, I don't think it changes Ainge's target rebuild date. IMO, Ainge will need to make a decision on who to pair with Rondo for the next few seasons beyond 2010-11, Perk or Pierce. Personally I think it's foolish to believe that Ainge will simply be able to trade the aging veterans and role players for the next generation of Celtic stars.

It will need to again start with the draft. That means trading aging stars (KG, Sheed) for marginal players and draft picks. What to do with Ray Allen is tricky, because the window is this year and next. If they trade Ray this year, the player coming back probably should not be making big money beyond 2011-12, because it is likely he too will be traded in the retooling. If they resign Ray, it should be with the intent of dealing him at the same time they deal KG. Why? Because Ainge and the organization need to get an early 1st round draft pick. That means they either must have one very poor season or a package of picks to move up. They also need the salary space to acquire the other star either by free agency or trade.

Back to the original point, I would hope that the 2011-12 is Rondo, Perk or Pierce, and a roster of fillers and prospects. Trading Pierce would be very difficult, but I tend to doubt he's willing to endure a couple of terrible seasons again. I would prefer that he retire a Celtic, but the team needs to act in the best interest of another near future championship and that means a willingness to take a short term fall. And, while Pierce is loyal, I just don't know if he wants to end his career that way.

Captain_Caveman wrote:This year's Celtics team reminds me of this year's Patriots team. For all the squawking about their defense and injured RBs, did anyone else notice that Tom Brady couldn't hit the side of a BARN past 5 yards this year?

If the biggest strength of your team isn't even a strength, at the end of the day, you aren't going anywhere. And that is right where the Celts find themselves now. This team is built around 3 guys who are glorified role players at this point (OK, PIerce has maybe another year before that happens, but you get the point). Haven't had a quality win since XMas, and we are 0-7 against other top teams since that point.

It's aint Sheed, it ain't the bench, and no collection of role players subtracted or added is going to get us back on top. Please consider this possibility as we approach the trade deadline. Thank you.

Thats where I stopped reading.

tfmiii wrote:and furthermore the Cs problems won't be solved by adding other teams' bench players like Hinrich and/or salmons or nocioni

ok then goodluck in getting that *star* for ur ageing core.

and yeah, btw they're at the center aisle beside the koolaid. quick they're selling fast. lol

Ohh, this team needs role players too. You have your core of stars, and then you surround those guys with capable role players who can play with those stars in a system which enhances and maximizes the talents of the whole.

We don't have that.

I think we can get real value for Ray Allen.

I checked a trade with DET, Ray and Scalabrine for Hamilton and Prince, it works. We'd end up with Hamilton/Daniels and Pierce/Prince, Hamilton would replace Ray in our system moving without the ball through screens, so not a big adjustment here and Prince would bring defense and would help on the boards, Doc could even go small with Rondo, Hamilton, Pierce and Prince on the court.

As for DET, the would save lots of money and would clear cap space, they go nowhere right now, so I think it would be great for them. From my point of view the best DET could get for these guys is cap space, they shouldn care if it's via Ray Allen, Illgauskas or whatever.

PS: Sorry if this trade has been posted (and destroyed) before.

GreenDreamer wrote:Ohh, this team needs role players too. You have your core of stars, and then you surround those guys with capable role players who can play with those stars in a system which enhances and maximizes the talents of the whole.

We don't have that.

Basically, although I would stress the primary issue of our core of stars not being good enough to get it done anymore. That's the central problem here, IMO. And you don't get the role players before you get the stars that they are supposed to complement.

of course stars are always better than role players. but who's going to trade us a star for the collection of guys we have now?

Well... two answers here. #1, we have about $30m in expiring contracts this year and in both of the next two seasons. Don't underestimate the worth of that in this economy. it's what helped get us KG and Ray in the 1st place. #2, kind of like the "hockey assist" pass that leads to an assist, me could make moves that lead to later moves that get us a star, kinda like trading Eric Williams ---> Ricky D ---> Wally/pick ---> Ray, or Raef/pick that could have been Brandon Roy ---> Rat/Telfair/Jefferson ---> KG.

Captain_Caveman wrote:

LanFill wrote:I don't think Ray Allen is going anywhere. Given that, we don't have the assets to acquire any stars.

Could be true, but if that's the case, we could be going full rebuild soon.

Probably. This is the end of the window of opportunity. The KG/Ray deals worked. Boston won a title. However, the tradeoff was a short window. Boston MIGHT get a second win...some luck, and still make a run this year. Rebuild time is getting close though. Outside of the starting 5...there's no trade chips or hot prospects,so very soon the focus goes to building a new base.

The optimists are looking for some miracle trade.....not gonna happen. Listen to the realists. It will take a few years to create a new core,and if the big 3 are all fading,it's too late to think "win Now".

ParticleMan wrote:of course stars are always better than role players. but who's going to trade us a star for the collection of guys we have now?

That's the core issue. Factor age + contract and even Pierce,KG are losing trade value by the day.