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Why does Ray play so many minutes many of you ask? Because he can DRIBBLE. And do you know why thats important? Because Pierce TA & Eddie cant. Look, these guys are OK with the ball, but as far as running the offense they are simply "out of their game"...and now so is Ray. This trade RAY garbage is totaly unwarrented when you reliaze what he's being asked to do game after game.

We MUST aquire a backup point at the trade deadline. By addressing this, we imporve TWO positions as our shooting guards will be able to focus on SHOOTING and driving. Eddie goes back to being the fifth situational guard where he exceled during our championship run, and Ray should be able reduce his minutes.

As far as who we get, thats up to Danny, however, I feel that Baby, Scal or Walker could net us a guy good enough as we dont need a starter or an allstar, in fact even a point, say good enough as Baby is at PF, at the point guard position should get the job done.

Sorry for the rant, but all this Iggy and K Martin talk is totaly nuts and would set this team back to mediocrity soooo fast...I cant believe eveyone has turned on the starters and not pointing out the obvious flaw in our lineup.

ehh... you could have posted this in my thread, pretty much the same thing and would've made it bomb a little less.

FeedReed wrote:ehh... you could have posted this in my thread, pretty much the same thing and would've made it bomb a little less.

Im sure it will bomb as everyone has been Martinsturbating all day; I just wanted to make my point and give some people the opportunity to read an opinion that differs from the asses....

In regards to YOUR thread (im suprised I didnt find it on totalyawsome.com) You wouldnt HAVE to start TA if we HAD a decent backup point....also TA a starter on a championship team? Please man. Hes not that good.

You are overrating Ray's ball handling - Paul Pierce is actually much better at it - and he tries to do alot more with the Paul. Ray has been VASTLY overrated in this catergory - we thought we were getting a better then Pierce handler and instead we got someone who looks quite awkward out there trying to handle the ball against any kind of pressure. Ditto with TA..

Don't bring me numbers about turnovers because both TA and Pierce will beat double teams off the dribble - whereas Ray Allen likes to use the dribble to ruin perfectly good catch and shoot moments.

I agree with guy clinch...saying ray allen is a good ball handler is laughable. where have you been all these games were he gets the ball dribbles in to the corner and turns it over?

I agree that we need help handling the ball and I don't think Ray is the problem overall in our line up he is aging gracefully as expected the problem is that KG is not and Pierce is not seemingly capable of going back to a 25 ppg guy at the moment.

So instead of 3 20 ppg guys sharing the ball we have a 20/16/14 and while Rondo and Perk have stepped up they are probably at their present limit and you can only play so many guys. We could get away with 20/20/15 but it is going to take KG a lot to raise his scoring shooting two's and getting to the line when we also need him to crank up his defense especially his rebounding. Obviously Ray makes one more 3 a game and we are looking a lot better and he can probably do that the rest of the season. But come the postseason we are no longer an embarrassment of riches, we lack the scoring prowess to overcome an off night from one of these 3 guys and Ray has had those in the postseason as it is harder to get open.

At this point adding a smaller piece is probably rearranging the chairs on the Titanic. Were does it leave us next year and the year after. If we could trade KG I probably would but we can't so we have to try and do something before it is too late.

sully00 wrote:I agree that we need help handling the ball and I don't think Ray is the problem overall in our line up he is aging gracefully as expected the problem is that KG is not and Pierce is not seemingly capable of going back to a 25 ppg guy at the moment.

So instead of 3 20 ppg guys sharing the ball we have a 20/16/14 and while Rondo and Perk have stepped up they are probably at their present limit and you can only play so many guys. We could get away with 20/20/15 but it is going to take KG a lot to raise his scoring shooting two's and getting to the line when we also need him to crank up his defense especially his rebounding. Obviously Ray makes one more 3 a game and we are looking a lot better and he can probably do that the rest of the season. But come the postseason we are no longer an embarrassment of riches, we lack the scoring prowess to overcome an off night from one of these 3 guys and Ray has had those in the postseason as it is harder to get open.

At this point adding a smaller piece is probably rearranging the chairs on the Titanic. Were does it leave us next year and the year after. If we could trade KG I probably would but we can't so we have to try and do something before it is too late.

^you nailed it right there in that one sentence...

Ray had lost a step,as well as some lateral quickness. He didn't have any burst last year. Still smart and still a money shooter but it's got to where he reaches into the toolbox and all he's got is the perimeter J. If KG picks it up a bit,the perimeter J can do more,but if teams don't need extra help on KG, then Ray has to shoot contested. Getting KG and Ray was gonna mean a short window. Probably an issue going forward is that guys like Tony Allen, House are not serious trade chips....most likely you can break even,not gain trading them. Had Powe stayed healthy, that would have helped a lot.

Don't expect the ghost of Ray to get a STAR ( Kevin Martin,Ellis,?) as he is just a LARGE $ expire and teams want to KEEP guys like Ellis + Martin who have a lot of future. You can get some Hinrich and ? package. Not sure that helps. Don't waste time pretending you can trade a 34 yr old for a 24 yr old,but Ray can fetch something handy if Boston eats someone's contract. Roughly, there's guys getting MLE money, a couple more years that are not worth it. If you accept one,in the deal, you may get a legit asset too. Be realistic. Eating the Contract of Vlad Rad won't get you Ellis,but a less greedy idea along those lines can happen. A factor many didn't anticipates that a team based on 3 aged stars may run out of gas late in the season.

Ray can't dribble, come on, he plays 40 minutes because that's what Doc wants. On Sunday, with our top 10 fully healthy for the first time all year, Ray still got 40 minutes.

Fact is, Ray plays not because he can dribble (he can't, really) but because he can SHOOT and in Doc's system, he favors shooters over non-shooters, which is why we continue to play chuckers instead of defenders.

We've added backup point guards the last 2 seasons to little effect. Why? Because they didn't MAKE SHOTS.

Let me disagree with Sully too. Ray Allen is to blame. He is not aging gracefully, in fact, his loss of athleticism, plus his overuse, are killing this team in ways that are hard to see, but which amount to one thing--bad ball movement, and lazy rotations. Even with KG and Paul slowed, we still should have beat Orlando, provided we would have kept sharing the ball and running them off the 3 point line. We didn't. Paul was obviously hurt, so he gets a pass (and he'll get better). KG actually kept moving the ball and playing decent defense. What's Ray's excuse? He doesn't have one--he's become a very fine role player, but he's being asked to play superstar minutes and it's making him into a very mediocre role player to the detriment of team chemistry and ball movement. I fully expect Pierce (who was having a great season up until the knee infection) and KG (who had a great month once he regain his flow, strength and stability in the knee) to both improve greatly in the 2nd half (provided there are no more new injuries). Ray Allen? Only if he moves to the bench, or Doc learns how to limit his minutes.

Sure, we could wait until KG and Paul recover and then the flaws of Ray Allen become lessened. Or we could help Paul and KG and the team by putting Ray where he belongs. Doc talks about getting this team to grow--the best way to do that involves Ray Allen either moving to the bench; or the trade of Ray Allen. Those are the choices if you wanna grow.

What about suiting up Tyronn Lue?

I think the backup pg is the problem....Rondo can't go like a madman for 4 quarters, when he takes one off (3rd quarter, Magic) on either side of the ball, he starts dribbling down the clock, his man lights up the other side and we wilt and die.

Sure, Ray, KG and PP are all problems starting together... this certainly is the end of our run with the big 3 unless KG and PP change their play of late...Ray's ok

Ray can get more rest now that Daniels is back, as he, House, and TA looked good together the other day when the second unit was on the floor.

Celtics_85 wrote:Ray can get more rest now that Daniels is back, as he, House, and TA looked good together the other day when the second unit was on the floor.

And should look even better if/when Daniels runs the point rather than House.

ryaningf

Then explain why we are so much better with Ray on the floor than off? The only player with a better on court +/- is Garnett and Ray is the only player with a - off court. and leads the team with a 9.5 net, 2 points better than Garnett and almost 4 points better than everyone else.

Why don't we play better without Ray Allen if what you say is true? Why are we able to get along without anyone else, even Rondo, better than we can without Ray Allen?

Your opinion does not jive with reality that is what Doc Rivers is facing. Ray didn't take anymore shots than Pierce or Garnett, and Ray didn't turn it over 3 and 4 times respectively. He didn't shoot the ball well but he still managed to score more than those two on the same number of attempts.

I am not trying to put this on anyone I just have a problem with the scapegoating of Ray Allen when it isn't the problem. We lose Ray for 3 or 4 games with Pierce and Garnett unable to combine for 30 pts what do you think our record is going to be?

You think Garnett has a better chance of returning to form than Ray Allen does of improving his 3 pt shooting? That is the only measurable difference in Ray Allen's game is he is shooting 34% from 3 instead of 40%. KG is avg 13/6.5 since he came back he hasn't blocked a shot in Feb. what exactly is he going to return too? 14/7 isn't good enough we haven't seen 17/9 in a year.

I now we may have to trade Ray Allen, because we can, but we better trade him for somebody who score and I mean more than 16-17 a game or this basketball team is finished.

sully00 wrote:ryaningf

Then explain why we are so much better with Ray on the floor than off? The only player with a better on court +/- is Garnett and Ray is the only player with a - off court. and leads the team with a 9.5 net, 2 points better than Garnett and almost 4 points better than everyone else.

Why don't we play better without Ray Allen if what you say is true? Why are we able to get along without anyone else, even Rondo, better than we can without Ray Allen?

Great question, Sully. I've thought about this alot because, as you point out, the statistical measurements show that Ray is our most invaluable player. Why, then, when I watch the team does Ray Allen's play seem to stick out like a sore thumb? Either my eyes decieve me, or the stats lie.

In this case, the stats mislead. Why? Ray Allen plays ALOT with Paul/Rondo/KG/Perk. Second, he's about the only one of our starters who can function well with our disfunctional 2nd unit. Why can he function so well? Because the threat of his jump shot opens things up for House and Sheed (and when those 2 are hitting we tend to play well on the 2nd unit). So, Ray gets lots of minutes with our best players and his skill set is the best fit with our dysfunctional 2nd unit (dysfunctional partly because of how Doc puts that 2nd unit together). Ray gets held up by the 1st unit, and he holds up the 2nd unit, thereby giving him the best +/- (and that's not even getting into the problems with that statistic).

sully00 wrote:You think Garnett has a better chance of returning to form than Ray Allen does of improving his 3 pt shooting? That is the only measurable difference in Ray Allen's game is he is shooting 34% from 3 instead of 40%. KG is avg 13/6.5 since he came back he hasn't blocked a shot in Feb. what exactly is he going to return too? 14/7 isn't good enough we haven't seen 17/9 in a year.

I now we may have to trade Ray Allen, because we can, but we better trade him for somebody who score and I mean more than 16-17 a game or this basketball team is finished.

Finished? Not quite. We just need a defender and ball mover in Ray's place and we'll be fine--Rondo alone could increase his scoring 3-5 points a game if need be (and that would actually help the team).

As for KG--I still hold out hope that the KG of December has another appearence before this season is out. And I'm more confident of that happening than I am of Ray Allen all of a sudden not being old.

No we don't we are the best defensive team in the NBA, that didn't even change with Garnett out but we have lost 4 ppg in January and Feb. The more Rondo scores worse the offense is, it isn't his fault he is playing fine but as his scoring increases or offense sucks more he is filling the void but he isn't keying wins with it.

Again you can hold on to this all you want but seriously you couldn't be more wrong. We put Marquis Daniels in Ray's spot right now and nothing else changes we are a first round knockout.

sully00 wrote:No we don't we are the best defensive team in the NBA, that didn't even change with Garnett out but we have lost 4 ppg in January and Feb. The more Rondo scores worse the offense is, it isn't his fault he is playing fine but as his scoring increases or offense sucks more he is filling the void but he isn't keying wins with it.

Again you can hold on to this all you want but seriously you couldn't be more wrong. We put Marquis Daniels in Ray's spot right now and nothing else changes we are a first round knockout.

Are we the best defensive team in the NBA? Is that why we can't stop the Lakers, Magic, and Hawks from scoring whenever they wanted?

Our offense operates at such a slow pace that it makes our points allowed defense look better than it is. Why does our offense operate so slowly? We're running a 3 pick, 14 second set to get Ray Allen jumpshots he ends up turning down.

Our offense has been operating at a low level since January, and I attribute that to the ball movement killing force that is Ray Allen. That and Paul's injury.

I like Rondo to score more because it opens up all the other things that he does well, and he also tends to generate easy bucket opportunities, something we don't get regularly.

If we put Marquis in the starting lineup, lots of things would change all by themselves, namely our perimeter defense and easy bucket opportunities, not to mention the boon Ray would be to the 2nd unit, and how less minutes would benefit Ray's general floor game and jump shooting.

Looks like they're listening to you. Davis for Augustin deal being discussed!!!!

Well well well.....i dont mean to brag here.....BUT.....

Looks as we differ in the direction of the team, we can ALL agree that Ray is playing TOO MUCH.

Hopefully the "quick fix" without blowing this up is by bringing in some help at the point to benefit us when we play great teams.

Ray, TA, Pierce, and Eddie taking turns primarly handling the ball works fine against a poor team, but when we play GREAT teams were these guys have to play defense too, its simply too much.

Get it done Danny!

We need a real star.

Ray Allen is an expiring starting SG.

KG has fallen off the horse. And Pierce is day to day at all-star level.

The reason for trading Ray is to get a younger consistent all-star... I don't think that's possible. And if that's not possible then there is no reason to trade Ray... it won't help us win now and this team is the Pistons of 2006-2009... old lethargic veterans who believe they run the team and the organization.

So if we can't get an All Star for Ray Allen's expiring... they deal the other pieces... but in the end basketball is about S-T-A-R-S

Getting Baby for Augstine... maybe Ray for Hinrich and Thomas afterward is nice. But it doesn't change your stars and therefore doesn't change the fate of this basketball team.