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Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft.

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Whole Truth
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#281 » by Whole Truth » Thu May 12, 2022 9:39 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
I dont think either Mathurin or AJ will be guarding 1s in the NBA, that will be up to Herb. And say there is a series against a Ja Morant and he's even torching Herb, you can slide Jose in to start to defend him. But I think most situations Herb can handle defending 1s if that is the opposing team's #1 guy. Either than that, would just be a very switchable defense.

Mathurin definitely has the speed advantage over AJ. He has a higher level ceiling because he is just more dynamic with the ball and just in his athletic movements all together.

When it comes to off ball abilities, I would give the edge to AJ. Duke had a very limited off ball movement offense, but when they did incorporate it, AJ looked really really good. Positioned himself well on the perimeter when it came to staying in passing lanes to always be available, and he was a good cutter as well.

So this is how I would break it down between the two of them

Defensively:
AJ is longer and I think with his frame will be stronger. I also think he is the more disciplined defender as well at the moment. So I think AJ will handle the wings and bigger stronger guards better. While Mathurin is the quicker athlete. I dont have much worry about him cleaning up his defensive mishaps. I think defensively its going to be a wash between the two of them.

Offensively:
AJ the better shooter and better off ball mover (cutter and moving to keep passing lanes open). While I think Mathurin is the better on ball guy and more dynamic overall. But will do well in the 3rd option role as well.

So I think they're pretty close just with some small tweaks differences between them. I think AJ will probably end up being the better strict 3rd option, but I dont see much of a ceiling beyond that. While I think Mathurin can be a good 3rd option, but a higher ceiling because of his dynamic ability AJ doesn't have. And with BI and Zion not having the greatest health record. Id side with Mathurin being a better insurance option for a guy that can step up and be that 2nd option while one of BI/Zion is missing time, while being a good 3rd option when all is healthy.


Nice break down but I had AJ better on ball than Mathurin & Mathurin better off ball but you most likely saw more Duke games than me.


Ya I have Mathurin better on ball. AJ has a pretty solid pull up mid range jumper and a solid step back jumper. But thats about it. Either than that, not much of a threat to attack the rim from the perimeter and so on. The vast majority of his damage comes from being off ball. Which again I think lowers his overall ceiling, but also I think makes him an ideal guy if you already have your dynamic offensive guys.

So ya for me

Strict 3rd option only:
AJ > Mathurin

Good 3rd option with a higher ceiling:
Mathurin > AJ

If youre 100% sold on BI and Zion staying healthy, then Id go with AJ. But both with a pretty spotty health record, I like the good but not quite as good 3rd option, but with the higher on ball ceiling.

But ya back to what I think is the biggest question mark for this team going forward, since it seems like most mock drafts I see have the Pels taking Mathurin or AJ. What does this team do with CJ. Are they forward thinking enough to trade him or move him to the bench as the 6th man. Or do they bend over because he's CJ and he's a somewhat big name who said he likes it here and they try and make an offense that is equal for all 3 guys. Because if that's the case, offenses never work when you got 3 guys that want the ball in their hands to score.

Really hoping Griffin or Willie recognize this and not waste a chunk of next year or all of next year trying to find ways to make CJ work in the starting lineup.


I'm hoping CJ's comments has no bearing on DG decision making. Unless they use it ogainst him. If you like it here & really want to win with us.... we need u to take this role. He says no, then u know where his head is at for a future over 30 ectension.

NO's needs to stop catering... We need you CJ to do this to really make us better, can you or can't you ?. He says no, move him **** public perseption. If this year showed NO's anything, is that winning cures all.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#282 » by Duke4life831 » Thu May 12, 2022 9:42 pm

Whole Truth wrote:I'm not much of a stat guy but I took this from the trade board concerning Conley.

Advanced Metrics this past year:
BPM: +3.1 (+2.4/+0.7)
RAPTOR: +3.3 (+2.1/+1.2)
LEBRON: +2.6 (+1.6/+1.0)
EPM: +3.9 (+2.2/+1.7)


My main thing with Conley was more just eye test, playoff performance, and how the Jazz fans view him. I wont lie, I probably caught 10-15 Jazz games this year (not including the playoffs), so not the biggest sample size. But athletically he looked pretty cooked and in the playoffs he was abused defensively and really struggled to get to his spots on the offensive end.

Then throw in that it seems like most Jazz fans kind of view the idea of getting rid of Conley without having to add assets would be a solid win. That to me is something that speaks pretty solid volume.

I dont know, I would love the idea of Conley from 2-3 years ago on this team. But Ill admit that his playoff performance plus the fact he's going to be 35 when next year starts has me pretty sour to the idea of him.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#283 » by Whole Truth » Thu May 12, 2022 9:42 pm

It pisses me off when men like SAS talks about Lakers having a different standard for winning.

**** that.. you either want to win here in NO's or you can get the **** out.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#284 » by Duke4life831 » Thu May 12, 2022 9:51 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
Nice break down but I had AJ better on ball than Mathurin & Mathurin better off ball but you most likely saw more Duke games than me.


Ya I have Mathurin better on ball. AJ has a pretty solid pull up mid range jumper and a solid step back jumper. But thats about it. Either than that, not much of a threat to attack the rim from the perimeter and so on. The vast majority of his damage comes from being off ball. Which again I think lowers his overall ceiling, but also I think makes him an ideal guy if you already have your dynamic offensive guys.

So ya for me

Strict 3rd option only:
AJ > Mathurin

Good 3rd option with a higher ceiling:
Mathurin > AJ

If youre 100% sold on BI and Zion staying healthy, then Id go with AJ. But both with a pretty spotty health record, I like the good but not quite as good 3rd option, but with the higher on ball ceiling.

But ya back to what I think is the biggest question mark for this team going forward, since it seems like most mock drafts I see have the Pels taking Mathurin or AJ. What does this team do with CJ. Are they forward thinking enough to trade him or move him to the bench as the 6th man. Or do they bend over because he's CJ and he's a somewhat big name who said he likes it here and they try and make an offense that is equal for all 3 guys. Because if that's the case, offenses never work when you got 3 guys that want the ball in their hands to score.

Really hoping Griffin or Willie recognize this and not waste a chunk of next year or all of next year trying to find ways to make CJ work in the starting lineup.


I'm hoping CJ's comments has no bearing on DG decision making. Unless they use it ogainst him. If you like it here & really want to win with us.... we need u to take this role. He says no, then u know where his head is at for a future over 30 ectension.

NO's needs to stop catering... We need you CJ to do this to really make us better, can you or can't you ?. He says no, move him **** public perseption. If this year showed NO's anything, is that winning cures all.


Agreed 100%. I have a fear that with what happened with AD, then just all the media pressure to try and get Zion out of here. The second they get any kind of positive attention from a somewhat well known player, they're going to bend over backwards to try and show loyalty to him, even if it doesnt help the team out.

NO doesnt need to be like that. You got BI who loves it here, you got a bunch of young guys who are having a blast here, you got legit vet players who are willing to do glue guy roles to help the team like Nance, and you got Zion saying he cant wait to sign and extension. You dont need to bend over backwards to make an aging player who wasn't even an all star happy because he said he really liked being here.

It should be really simple. You go to CJ this summer and say, this is BI's and Zion's team moving forward. And with those two your fit in the starting lineup isnt really ideal. We hope youre willing to come off the bench and be that offensive spark plug off the bench. If you dont see that as something you want to do, we can work on facilitating a trade to a team where you might have the preferred role youre looking for.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#285 » by Whole Truth » Thu May 12, 2022 9:51 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:I'm not much of a stat guy but I took this from the trade board concerning Conley.

Advanced Metrics this past year:
BPM: +3.1 (+2.4/+0.7)
RAPTOR: +3.3 (+2.1/+1.2)
LEBRON: +2.6 (+1.6/+1.0)
EPM: +3.9 (+2.2/+1.7)


My main thing with Conley was more just eye test, playoff performance, and how the Jazz fans view him. I wont lie, I probably caught 10-15 Jazz games this year (not including the playoffs), so not the biggest sample size. But athletically he looked pretty cooked and in the playoffs he was abused defensively and really struggled to get to his spots on the offensive end.

Then throw in that it seems like most Jazz fans kind of view the idea of getting rid of Conley without having to add assets would be a solid win. That to me is something that speaks pretty solid volume.

I dont know, I would love the idea of Conley from 2-3 years ago on this team. But Ill admit that his playoff performance plus the fact he's going to be 35 when next year starts has me pretty sour to the idea of him.


When you watch their situation in it's entirety you understand the Jazz fans point of view. After a great regular season last yr, Conley broke down, got injured in the first round of the PO' for a 2nd round elimination. This yr he didn't get injured but looked his age as you state, wear & tear which Utah cannot afford ...

Differense here with what I'm attempting with NO's. They have the potential depth to help keep Conley relatively healthy/& fresh over the course of a season & into the PO's. CJ can get spot starts, the 8th pick is an option, Kira Lewis could get development minutes... etc..

As you can see, his advanced stats shows how he impacts his team depite his individual play looking lack luster. Like Paul, he can think the game & run an offense..NO's just have to keep him fresh & rested which I think they have the potential depth to do. While getting hte additional benefits of a 3-1 deal condensing salary & dropping a yr off Graham's contract. Solving many issues from roster spots to minute distribution to better role definition & veteran leadership,character.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#286 » by Whole Truth » Thu May 12, 2022 9:58 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Ya I have Mathurin better on ball. AJ has a pretty solid pull up mid range jumper and a solid step back jumper. But thats about it. Either than that, not much of a threat to attack the rim from the perimeter and so on. The vast majority of his damage comes from being off ball. Which again I think lowers his overall ceiling, but also I think makes him an ideal guy if you already have your dynamic offensive guys.

So ya for me

Strict 3rd option only:
AJ > Mathurin

Good 3rd option with a higher ceiling:
Mathurin > AJ

If youre 100% sold on BI and Zion staying healthy, then Id go with AJ. But both with a pretty spotty health record, I like the good but not quite as good 3rd option, but with the higher on ball ceiling.

But ya back to what I think is the biggest question mark for this team going forward, since it seems like most mock drafts I see have the Pels taking Mathurin or AJ. What does this team do with CJ. Are they forward thinking enough to trade him or move him to the bench as the 6th man. Or do they bend over because he's CJ and he's a somewhat big name who said he likes it here and they try and make an offense that is equal for all 3 guys. Because if that's the case, offenses never work when you got 3 guys that want the ball in their hands to score.

Really hoping Griffin or Willie recognize this and not waste a chunk of next year or all of next year trying to find ways to make CJ work in the starting lineup.


I'm hoping CJ's comments has no bearing on DG decision making. Unless they use it ogainst him. If you like it here & really want to win with us.... we need u to take this role. He says no, then u know where his head is at for a future over 30 ectension.

NO's needs to stop catering... We need you CJ to do this to really make us better, can you or can't you ?. He says no, move him **** public perseption. If this year showed NO's anything, is that winning cures all.


Agreed 100%. I have a fear that with what happened with AD, then just all the media pressure to try and get Zion out of here. The second they get any kind of positive attention from a somewhat well known player, they're going to bend over backwards to try and show loyalty to him, even if it doesnt help the team out.

NO doesnt need to be like that. You got BI who loves it here, you got a bunch of young guys who are having a blast here, you got legit vet players who are willing to do glue guy roles to help the team like Nance, and you got Zion saying he cant wait to sign and extension. You dont need to bend over backwards to make an aging player who wasn't even an all star happy because he said he really liked being here.

It should be really simple. You go to CJ this summer and say, this is BI's and Zion's team moving forward. And with those two your fit in the starting lineup isnt really ideal. We hope youre willing to come off the bench and be that offensive spark plug off the bench. If you dont see that as something you want to do, we can work on facilitating a trade to a team where you might have the preferred role youre looking for.


It's not as though coming off the bench rules him out from closing games if he's playing well either. NO's are building a team first mentality, are u team first...

If you ask me there was no reason for CJ to publicly state he wants to retire here in NO's. I think he knows full well what & why he's saying what he's saying. His comments could make DG a villian for doing what he thinks best among NO's faithful.

Me I would go public & say we asked CJ to do this for the team... he refused so we had no choice.. **** that.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#287 » by Whole Truth » Mon May 16, 2022 8:40 pm

I know people say Crowder is streaky offensively but IMO his struggles in the NO's series vs Mavs series tie into the fact he was tasked with having to contain/Ingram, which took a toll.

Suns left Bridges on CJ because he never met a shot he didn't like. A fact that gave Suns 12-15 extra possessions a game.

Ayton didn't have to bother himseld either because most of Jonas touches came off offensive rebounds outside the game 4 blowout.

Only time Paul had to concern himself with pressure was when Alvarado was picking him up full court. Where in the Mavs series Luka was fouling Paul out of games. Mavs overall guard play, made Paul far less effective on both ends.

As I've been saying from the start of the PO's, Suns go as Paul goes... Mavs guard play > NO's guard play.

Mavs a great team defensively ?... or did their point of attack, offense, dictate their defense. Quick, someone tell me about how NO's defended the PNR with neither Paul or Ayton having to concern themselves defensively ... I know Paul was killing hte Mavs in game 4 when he was on the bench, fouled out.

I have GS coming out the West. I honestly think NO's would have been better off with Hart. At the very least he would have given up the ball & play some gritty defense. CJ drawing offensive attention makes no difference if you're shooting a low percentage while refusing to give the ball up. That result, was just an effective Suns strategy to leave Bridges on CJ while BI was cooking Crowder.

Pels trying to tire Paul out picking him up full court, while he got to rest defensively because of a lack of ball movement...
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#288 » by Whole Truth » Mon May 16, 2022 8:48 pm

Jonas is an excellent roll man. His PNR action with Lowry & JA were 2 teams offensive bread & butter. How many times did NO's run him in PNR action vs uneffectively ISO'ing CJ against Brdiges length ?.

It's not lost on me Mavs did a much better job of spacing the court while Suns sagged off Hayes & chreated off Herb but they weren't the ones that Iced Jonas overall offensive impact, which makes him a defensive liability outside of his rebounding. An issue compounded by the fact CJ isn't much of a defender himself.

IMO team needs by priority -

1, Big 2 way gaurd = Shaedon/Mathurin
2, Rim protecting 2 way stretch C. = Smith/Chet

one priority will get addressed with that Lakers pick with rookie scale salary (cap management), while raising the teams potential ceiling. The talk of trading the pick for a bench player absolutely annoys me because NO's as is, are perfectly setup at either draft slot 1-4 or 8-10 where the only concern for me about tommorrows results, is falling out the top 10. Which is less likely than landing #1.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#289 » by Duke4life831 » Tue May 17, 2022 6:02 pm

Whole Truth wrote:Jonas is an excellent roll man. His PNR action with Lowry & JA were 2 teams offensive bread & butter. How many times did NO's run him in PNR action vs uneffectively ISO'ing CJ against Brdiges length ?.

It's not lost on me Mavs did a much better job of spacing the court while Suns sagged off Hayes & chreated off Herb but they weren't the ones that Iced Jonas overall offensive impact, which makes him a defensive liability outside of his rebounding. An issue compounded by the fact CJ isn't much of a defender himself.

IMO team needs by priority -

1, Big 2 way gaurd = Shaedon/Mathurin
2, Rim protecting 2 way stretch C. = Smith/Chet

one priority will get addressed with that Lakers pick with rookie scale salary (cap management), while raising the teams potential ceiling. The talk of trading the pick for a bench player absolutely annoys me because NO's as is, are perfectly setup at either draft slot 1-4 or 8-10 where the only concern for me about tommorrows results, is falling out the top 10. Which is less likely than landing #1.


Just a side note, not the biggest fan of Sharpe with this Pels team. He is a very ball dominant guy and his defense is all "potential" based off his wingspan and athleticism. I just think he would be a very funky fit on both ends. I would much rather have the Pels go after one of the 3 bigs if they jump up or Mathurin or Griffin at 8.

I also agree that no way should the Lakers pick be moved for a bench player. This is pretty much how I would view the ideal scenarios.

1. Pick moves up in the lotto to a top 3 pick. Flip it with some other assets for a really good player that would fit this roster better than the top 3 bigs in this draft who are all natural 4s and years away from ever being a 5 (if they ever end up being able to play the 5).

2. Pick moves up in the lotto to a top 3 pick. Trade value isnt good enough to trade and they keep it and do some creative rotations for the next few years with the hope that one of the 3 can end up becoming a full time 5.

3. Pick stays at 8 and pick one of Mathurin or AJ.

4. Pick stays at 8 and move that pick along with some other assets to get a good starter that fits the timeline and fit needed in the starting lineup along with BI/Herb/Zion
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#290 » by Whole Truth » Tue May 17, 2022 10:43 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:Jonas is an excellent roll man. His PNR action with Lowry & JA were 2 teams offensive bread & butter. How many times did NO's run him in PNR action vs uneffectively ISO'ing CJ against Brdiges length ?.

It's not lost on me Mavs did a much better job of spacing the court while Suns sagged off Hayes & chreated off Herb but they weren't the ones that Iced Jonas overall offensive impact, which makes him a defensive liability outside of his rebounding. An issue compounded by the fact CJ isn't much of a defender himself.

IMO team needs by priority -

1, Big 2 way gaurd = Shaedon/Mathurin
2, Rim protecting 2 way stretch C. = Smith/Chet

one priority will get addressed with that Lakers pick with rookie scale salary (cap management), while raising the teams potential ceiling. The talk of trading the pick for a bench player absolutely annoys me because NO's as is, are perfectly setup at either draft slot 1-4 or 8-10 where the only concern for me about tommorrows results, is falling out the top 10. Which is less likely than landing #1.


Just a side note, not the biggest fan of Sharpe with this Pels team. He is a very ball dominant guy and his defense is all "potential" based off his wingspan and athleticism. I just think he would be a very funky fit on both ends. I would much rather have the Pels go after one of the 3 bigs if they jump up or Mathurin or Griffin at 8.

I also agree that no way should the Lakers pick be moved for a bench player. This is pretty much how I would view the ideal scenarios.

1. Pick moves up in the lotto to a top 3 pick. Flip it with some other assets for a really good player that would fit this roster better than the top 3 bigs in this draft who are all natural 4s and years away from ever being a 5 (if they ever end up being able to play the 5).

2. Pick moves up in the lotto to a top 3 pick. Trade value isnt good enough to trade and they keep it and do some creative rotations for the next few years with the hope that one of the 3 can end up becoming a full time 5.

3. Pick stays at 8 and pick one of Mathurin or AJ.

4. Pick stays at 8 and move that pick along with some other assets to get a good starter that fits the timeline and fit needed in the starting lineup along with BI/Herb/Zion


Like Mathurin, Sharpe doesn't have strong handles, he was ball dominant in high school because he was often the best player. His game is entirely potential based but that is what you're looking for top 10 a potential corner stone player. The fact NO's has 2 potential stars, allows them to play the draft a little more safe. IMO Chet & Shaedon have the higher ceilings with more risk attached, whereas Jabari & Mathurin have high ceilings but also higher floors, eliminating some of that risk factor.

I've gone back & forth on who I'd take that gamble on if I were to take a homerun swing between Chet & Sharpe. I keep coming up with Sharpe. I'd go #1 Jabari, #2 Sharpe, #3 Mathurin. Jabari earning top spot with me because I do project him out to be that future "small ball" replacement for Jonas while he has the high floor of a 6'10" 3&D wing with defensive versatility 1 to potentially 5. Sharpe #2 based on his tool potential in a guards league & Mathurin at 8 having some potential upside, high floor & roster fit.

Sharpe - 6'6", 200lbs, +7' wing span, record setting 49" vert, + range. He's an unknown commodity & would be a bit of a project but he arguably has the highest ceiling in the draft. If he has the right mindset, IQ & work ethic, I wouldn't pass on him because all the physical tools are there. His handles & playmaking need work but I don't see him being anything less than a 3&D guard despite the unknown. Only way he doesn't make good on his tools is if there's nothing between the ears or in the heart. Another reason I like Jabari & Mathurin, they got a bit of a competitive edge to their games & personality.

There's only 2 trades I'd consider making outside a young star player.

1, Trade up for a prefered target
2, Potentially trade down from earning a top pick if Jabari is off board for a better cap hit & player I think would fall. Potentially use that to offload some dead weight for a more useful piece & or cap space/expiring player.

With 3 max contracts on the horizon & a couple of impending rookie extensions, not a chance I'd trade the rookie scale & potential over cheaply rounding out the depth chart & raising the teams potential ceiling based on development. NO's could very well make a run next yr but I definitely would not force the issue until Zion is fully incorporated into the fold or not.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#291 » by Whole Truth » Wed May 18, 2022 2:57 am

NO's trade - (CJ + FRP (not LA 24/25 pick)) for (Kings #4, filler)

NO's flip - (#4 + Lakers 23) for (Smith)
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#292 » by Duke4life831 » Wed May 18, 2022 5:06 pm

Wouldnt be shocked if Mark Williams at 8 might be an option as well. He has a standing reach that is 2 inches taller than Gobert, while also being a much better and mobile athlete compared to Gobert. Then toss in he is a good FT shooter and showed a few times throughout the year that he has solid form and really good natural touch out to about 18ft with his jumper.

He is the best defensive player in this year's class and has all the tools to be an elite defensive player in the NBA right away.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#293 » by Whole Truth » Wed May 18, 2022 6:51 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:Wouldnt be shocked if Mark Williams at 8 might be an option as well. He has a standing reach that is 2 inches taller than Gobert, while also being a much better and mobile athlete compared to Gobert. Then toss in he is a good FT shooter and showed a few times throughout the year that he has solid form and really good natural touch out to about 18ft with his jumper.

He is the best defensive player in this year's class and has all the tools to be an elite defensive player in the NBA right away.


Gobert is elite at the NBA level but he still gets stretched out in the PO's when it matters most. Smith's 3pt shooting & perimeter D >>>

A defensive rim runner with Zion & Herb... I''d hate to imagine that half court offense.

Any relation to Robert Williams ? Like him too but wouldn't draft him at 8 either.. It's a guards league. If the big can't play like a guard, defend the perimeter & shoot like one. IMO It's a wasted top 10 pick in this new NBA.

NO's can trade both their 2nd round picks & get a defensive rim runner with the 30th pick. Someone like (Koloko) & while not on the level of Mark a far better use of the available assets IMO.

Utah.. a top seed that can't get past the 2nd round because their defensive backbone gets stretched out by a corner 3 & Mark while his length is elite at the rim, he looks heavier of foot than Gobert ...

You know his speed & agility results ?
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#294 » by Whole Truth » Wed May 18, 2022 7:08 pm

I saw a tweet saying Houston would be open to trading the 3rd pick..

Speniding a good amount of time on the trade board & suggesting hypothetical Zion trades myself on it. I know Houston would jump at the chance & it wouldn't shock me if that is a possiblity for NO's with Zion's extension looming..

If Smith falls to 3 I'd pull the trigger on that trade. (Zion) for (#3 Smith +++) maybe get a FRP or 2 included.

Offense & another ball dominant player is not atop of NO's needs though Zion is an extermely efficient option. NO's 2 main needs are defense & shooting more what Smith brings to the table than Zion..

Additional benefits

- NO's reset the impending Max contract obligation to rookie scale
- NO's replace a defensive weak link with a versatile defender who can potentiall guard 1-5
- NO's replace a player that occupies the paint with a stretch big who can space the floor, potentially from the Centre positioon.
- NO's evade dealing with Zion's health issues
- NO's could potentiall get more assets in addition to Smith considering Zion didn't play at all last yr.
- NO's can potentially package Graham's contract with Zion's value as filler.

Ask for their 23 pick in addition to add to the Lakers odds in 23 & potentially a 24 swap. Zion could go on to dominate in Houston though I would prefer this not to be a divisional trade. The fact it's in conference, the mark up in value. Maybe a 25 pick in addition ?.

Until Smith develops & transitions to the 5, No's would have 4 players around 6'10" in the starting rotation that are 3 & D. Take a quicker gaurd at 8 who can effectively guard the 1.

Jonas - Hayes - Hermangomez - Smith
(#3 Smith 6'10" 7' wing span) - Nance - Hayes
BI - Murpy - Naji
Herb - CJ - Mathurin
(#8 Mathurin 6'6" 6'10" wing soan) - Alvarado - Kira

Picks 23 - Lakers RTS, Houston 23 unprotected
Picks 24 - Lakers RTS yrs, Houston RTS, Bucks RTS
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#295 » by Duke4life831 » Wed May 18, 2022 7:10 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Wouldnt be shocked if Mark Williams at 8 might be an option as well. He has a standing reach that is 2 inches taller than Gobert, while also being a much better and mobile athlete compared to Gobert. Then toss in he is a good FT shooter and showed a few times throughout the year that he has solid form and really good natural touch out to about 18ft with his jumper.

He is the best defensive player in this year's class and has all the tools to be an elite defensive player in the NBA right away.


Gobert is elite at the NBA level but he still gets stretched out in the PO's when it matters most. Smith's 3pt shooting & perimeter D >>>

A defensive rim runner with Zion & Herb... I''d hate to imagine that half court offense.

Any relation to Robert Williams ? Like him too but wouldn't draft him at 8 either.. It's a guards league. If the big can't play like a guard, defend the perimeter & shoot like one. IMO It's a wasted top 10 pick in this new NBA.

NO's can trade both their 2nd round picks & get a defensive rim runner with the 30th pick. Someone like (Koloko) & while not on the level of Mark a far better use of the available assets IMO.

Utah.. a top seed that can't get past the 2nd round because their defensive backbone gets stretched out by a corner 3 & Mark while his length is elite at the rim, he looks heavier of foot than Gobert ...

You know his speed & agility results ?


He's much more mobile than Gobert ever has been. And dont get me wrong, I still think 8 should be Mathurin or AJ. Just saying that I wouldnt be shocked if he is brought in for a workout and is looked at. He's the best defensive player in the draft with freakish measurements and its at a position where I think the Pels are open at looking for their future at the position.

Again to be clear, I still think Mathurin and AJ should be the primary guys looked at, at 8. But I think Mark will continue to climb the closer we get to the draft. Again freakish measurements, I think in workouts teams will see he is longer and more athletic and mobile than Gobert. I also think they will see a pretty natural shooting touch with him as well.

And to go back to what we have been talking about a lot on here. I still think this team is going to go with CJ in the starting lineup route and with the idea of extending CJ. And with that, plus guys like Jose, Trey, and Graham on the bench already. I wouldnt be shocked if they go with a big with the idea of letting Hayes walk next summer and using 8 to get their long term replacement at the 5 and getting the elite defensive big that they hoped Hayes would've ended up becoming but never did.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#296 » by Whole Truth » Wed May 18, 2022 7:20 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Wouldnt be shocked if Mark Williams at 8 might be an option as well. He has a standing reach that is 2 inches taller than Gobert, while also being a much better and mobile athlete compared to Gobert. Then toss in he is a good FT shooter and showed a few times throughout the year that he has solid form and really good natural touch out to about 18ft with his jumper.

He is the best defensive player in this year's class and has all the tools to be an elite defensive player in the NBA right away.


Gobert is elite at the NBA level but he still gets stretched out in the PO's when it matters most. Smith's 3pt shooting & perimeter D >>>

A defensive rim runner with Zion & Herb... I''d hate to imagine that half court offense.

Any relation to Robert Williams ? Like him too but wouldn't draft him at 8 either.. It's a guards league. If the big can't play like a guard, defend the perimeter & shoot like one. IMO It's a wasted top 10 pick in this new NBA.

NO's can trade both their 2nd round picks & get a defensive rim runner with the 30th pick. Someone like (Koloko) & while not on the level of Mark a far better use of the available assets IMO.

Utah.. a top seed that can't get past the 2nd round because their defensive backbone gets stretched out by a corner 3 & Mark while his length is elite at the rim, he looks heavier of foot than Gobert ...

You know his speed & agility results ?


He's much more mobile than Gobert ever has been. And dont get me wrong, I still think 8 should be Mathurin or AJ. Just saying that I wouldnt be shocked if he is brought in for a workout and is looked at. He's the best defensive player in the draft with freakish measurements and its at a position where I think the Pels are open at looking for their future at the position.

Again to be clear, I still think Mathurin and AJ should be the primary guys looked at, at 8. But I think Mark will continue to climb the closer we get to the draft. Again freakish measurements, I think in workouts teams will see he is longer and more athletic and mobile than Gobert. I also think they will see a pretty natural shooting touch with him as well.

And to go back to what we have been talking about a lot on here. I still think this team is going to go with CJ in the starting lineup route and with the idea of extending CJ. And with that, plus guys like Jose, Trey, and Graham on the bench already. I wouldnt be shocked if they go with a big with the idea of letting Hayes walk next summer and using 8 to get their long term replacement at the 5 and getting the elite defensive big that they hoped Hayes would've ended up becoming but never did.


It's not so much the target as apposed to selecting a guard over a big fi the big does not have guard like traits. I'm no pro scout to feel my choice is the only one that matters though I have my opinions & stand by them.

I know you are right & NO's will ride with CJ & extend him. Undortunately that decision will undoubtedly cap this teams potential to contend. much like Derozan's time in Toronto. Whereas if CJ is utilized as the 6th man it would allow NO's to elevate both units far more effectively on both ends..

This is a guards league & NO's have already started to Cater to CJ than to what's best. CJ will dominate the ball, play no D, cash in a large contract in his declining yrs & NO's will suffer for it because the relationship will officially be about CJ.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#297 » by Duke4life831 » Wed May 18, 2022 7:39 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
Gobert is elite at the NBA level but he still gets stretched out in the PO's when it matters most. Smith's 3pt shooting & perimeter D >>>

A defensive rim runner with Zion & Herb... I''d hate to imagine that half court offense.

Any relation to Robert Williams ? Like him too but wouldn't draft him at 8 either.. It's a guards league. If the big can't play like a guard, defend the perimeter & shoot like one. IMO It's a wasted top 10 pick in this new NBA.

NO's can trade both their 2nd round picks & get a defensive rim runner with the 30th pick. Someone like (Koloko) & while not on the level of Mark a far better use of the available assets IMO.

Utah.. a top seed that can't get past the 2nd round because their defensive backbone gets stretched out by a corner 3 & Mark while his length is elite at the rim, he looks heavier of foot than Gobert ...

You know his speed & agility results ?


He's much more mobile than Gobert ever has been. And dont get me wrong, I still think 8 should be Mathurin or AJ. Just saying that I wouldnt be shocked if he is brought in for a workout and is looked at. He's the best defensive player in the draft with freakish measurements and its at a position where I think the Pels are open at looking for their future at the position.

Again to be clear, I still think Mathurin and AJ should be the primary guys looked at, at 8. But I think Mark will continue to climb the closer we get to the draft. Again freakish measurements, I think in workouts teams will see he is longer and more athletic and mobile than Gobert. I also think they will see a pretty natural shooting touch with him as well.

And to go back to what we have been talking about a lot on here. I still think this team is going to go with CJ in the starting lineup route and with the idea of extending CJ. And with that, plus guys like Jose, Trey, and Graham on the bench already. I wouldnt be shocked if they go with a big with the idea of letting Hayes walk next summer and using 8 to get their long term replacement at the 5 and getting the elite defensive big that they hoped Hayes would've ended up becoming but never did.


It's not so much the target as apposed to selecting a guard over a big fi the big does not have guard like traits. I'm no pro scout to feel my choice is the only one that matters though I have my opinions & stand by them.

I know you are right & NO's will ride with CJ & extend him. Undortunately that decision will undoubtedly cap this teams potential to contend. much like Derozan's time in Toronto. Whereas if CJ is utilized as the 6th man it would allow NO's to elevate both units far more effectively on both ends..

This is a guards league & NO's have already started to Cater to CJ than to what's best. CJ will dominate the ball, play no D, cash in a large contract in his declining yrs & NO's will suffer for it because the relationship will officially be about CJ.


Agreed 100% on all of this. I dont even think best case scenario is CJ being the 6th man, I think best case scenario is he isnt on the team next year. And this is coming from someone who thought the trade was a solid trade at the time. But CJ really showed the kind of role he expects to play and will play. He came in and there is no debating he took over the #1 option role. Even if next year they move him to the 6th man role, the ideal way that would work is to have only 2 of BI/Zion/CJ on the court at once. But even in this scenario, I think CJ would just assume the #1 role whenever he would be on the court. While I think its clear as day that this team should 100% be going towards the direction of BI and Zion are the 1a/1b guys on this team. We saw at the end of the last year Zion played, the more on ball duties we gave him, the better he played. We also saw this year that the more on ball duties we gave BI, the better he played. The plan should be getting the ball in those two hands as much as possible. CJ is going to throw a major wrench into that.

So ya I still would love to see a big guard that can shoot taken at 8. With the idea that the starting perimeter would be a trio of BI/Herb/Big guard taken at 8. This team doesnt need a a traditional PG in the starting lineup. I actually think Jose could be a solid PG option coming off the bench from here on out.

But ya Im just saying they're most likely going to keep CJ in the starting lineup and wont be shocked if they go the big man route. And if that is the case they go, Mark would be the best option at 8. Even if it takes them a year or 2 to realize it was dumb trying to do a 3 man offense with BI/CJ/Zion, I think Mark could still be a good fit alongside the main core going forward. Truly an elite rim protector, good mobility, and I think solid promise as a shooter.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#298 » by Whole Truth » Wed May 18, 2022 9:04 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
He's much more mobile than Gobert ever has been. And dont get me wrong, I still think 8 should be Mathurin or AJ. Just saying that I wouldnt be shocked if he is brought in for a workout and is looked at. He's the best defensive player in the draft with freakish measurements and its at a position where I think the Pels are open at looking for their future at the position.

Again to be clear, I still think Mathurin and AJ should be the primary guys looked at, at 8. But I think Mark will continue to climb the closer we get to the draft. Again freakish measurements, I think in workouts teams will see he is longer and more athletic and mobile than Gobert. I also think they will see a pretty natural shooting touch with him as well.

And to go back to what we have been talking about a lot on here. I still think this team is going to go with CJ in the starting lineup route and with the idea of extending CJ. And with that, plus guys like Jose, Trey, and Graham on the bench already. I wouldnt be shocked if they go with a big with the idea of letting Hayes walk next summer and using 8 to get their long term replacement at the 5 and getting the elite defensive big that they hoped Hayes would've ended up becoming but never did.


It's not so much the target as apposed to selecting a guard over a big fi the big does not have guard like traits. I'm no pro scout to feel my choice is the only one that matters though I have my opinions & stand by them.

I know you are right & NO's will ride with CJ & extend him. Undortunately that decision will undoubtedly cap this teams potential to contend. much like Derozan's time in Toronto. Whereas if CJ is utilized as the 6th man it would allow NO's to elevate both units far more effectively on both ends..

This is a guards league & NO's have already started to Cater to CJ than to what's best. CJ will dominate the ball, play no D, cash in a large contract in his declining yrs & NO's will suffer for it because the relationship will officially be about CJ.


Agreed 100% on all of this. I dont even think best case scenario is CJ being the 6th man, I think best case scenario is he isnt on the team next year. And this is coming from someone who thought the trade was a solid trade at the time. But CJ really showed the kind of role he expects to play and will play. He came in and there is no debating he took over the #1 option role. Even if next year they move him to the 6th man role, the ideal way that would work is to have only 2 of BI/Zion/CJ on the court at once. But even in this scenario, I think CJ would just assume the #1 role whenever he would be on the court. While I think its clear as day that this team should 100% be going towards the direction of BI and Zion are the 1a/1b guys on this team. We saw at the end of the last year Zion played, the more on ball duties we gave him, the better he played. We also saw this year that the more on ball duties we gave BI, the better he played. The plan should be getting the ball in those two hands as much as possible. CJ is going to throw a major wrench into that.

So ya I still would love to see a big guard that can shoot taken at 8. With the idea that the starting perimeter would be a trio of BI/Herb/Big guard taken at 8. This team doesnt need a a traditional PG in the starting lineup. I actually think Jose could be a solid PG option coming off the bench from here on out.

But ya Im just saying they're most likely going to keep CJ in the starting lineup and wont be shocked if they go the big man route. And if that is the case they go, Mark would be the best option at 8. Even if it takes them a year or 2 to realize it was dumb trying to do a 3 man offense with BI/CJ/Zion, I think Mark could still be a good fit alongside the main core going forward. Truly an elite rim protector, good mobility, and I think solid promise as a shooter.


Once again, I'm on the same page. I'd ideally package CJ maybe to the Kings who are looking for a win now player (Maybe 3 team trade) with a pick or 2 packaged to move into the 4th pick slot. Maube Kings are still interested in Simmons & with Nets also looking to win now, NO's could end up with the pick in this 3 team scenario.. Maybe toss in Hayes as a sweetner, move his impending extension with Nets needing some size... Where getting CJ, might allow them to trade Kyrie..

Want to just touch on my point earlier concerning Mark at 8th vs say Koloko as a defensive rim runner early 2nd round

Height - #8 (Mark 7'.25") vs #30 (Koloko 6'11") 1.25" difference
standing reach - #8 (Mark 9'9") vs #30 (Koloko 9'5") 4" difference
Wingspan - #8 (Mark 7'6.6") vs #30 (Koloko 7'4.25") 1.5" difference

Standing Vert - #8 (Mark not in top 5( vs #0 (Koloko 28.00) #1 among centres
Max vert - #8 (Mark not in top 5) vs #30 (Koloko 33.5) #1 among centress
Shuttle run - #8 (Mark not in top 5) vs #30 (Koloko 3.19) #1 among centres

Lane agility - #8 (Mark not in top 5) vs #30 (Koloko 11.30) #1 among centres
3/4 sprint - #8 (Mark not in top 5) vs #30 (Koloko 3.27) #1 among centres

In my above suggestion. NO's IMO should package both 2nd round picks for the 30th pick & take Koloko as the defensive rim runner. Reason for trading upto 30 would be the cheap rookie scale & control apposed to the short contract control of the 2nd round.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#299 » by Duke4life831 » Wed May 18, 2022 9:19 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
It's not so much the target as apposed to selecting a guard over a big fi the big does not have guard like traits. I'm no pro scout to feel my choice is the only one that matters though I have my opinions & stand by them.

I know you are right & NO's will ride with CJ & extend him. Undortunately that decision will undoubtedly cap this teams potential to contend. much like Derozan's time in Toronto. Whereas if CJ is utilized as the 6th man it would allow NO's to elevate both units far more effectively on both ends..

This is a guards league & NO's have already started to Cater to CJ than to what's best. CJ will dominate the ball, play no D, cash in a large contract in his declining yrs & NO's will suffer for it because the relationship will officially be about CJ.


Agreed 100% on all of this. I dont even think best case scenario is CJ being the 6th man, I think best case scenario is he isnt on the team next year. And this is coming from someone who thought the trade was a solid trade at the time. But CJ really showed the kind of role he expects to play and will play. He came in and there is no debating he took over the #1 option role. Even if next year they move him to the 6th man role, the ideal way that would work is to have only 2 of BI/Zion/CJ on the court at once. But even in this scenario, I think CJ would just assume the #1 role whenever he would be on the court. While I think its clear as day that this team should 100% be going towards the direction of BI and Zion are the 1a/1b guys on this team. We saw at the end of the last year Zion played, the more on ball duties we gave him, the better he played. We also saw this year that the more on ball duties we gave BI, the better he played. The plan should be getting the ball in those two hands as much as possible. CJ is going to throw a major wrench into that.

So ya I still would love to see a big guard that can shoot taken at 8. With the idea that the starting perimeter would be a trio of BI/Herb/Big guard taken at 8. This team doesnt need a a traditional PG in the starting lineup. I actually think Jose could be a solid PG option coming off the bench from here on out.

But ya Im just saying they're most likely going to keep CJ in the starting lineup and wont be shocked if they go the big man route. And if that is the case they go, Mark would be the best option at 8. Even if it takes them a year or 2 to realize it was dumb trying to do a 3 man offense with BI/CJ/Zion, I think Mark could still be a good fit alongside the main core going forward. Truly an elite rim protector, good mobility, and I think solid promise as a shooter.


Once again, I'm on the same page. I'd ideally package CJ maybe to the Kings who are looking for a win now player (Maybe 3 team trade) with a pick or 2 packaged to move into the 4th pick slot. Maube Kings are still interested in Simmons & with Nets also looking to win now, NO's could end up with the pick in this 3 team scenario.. Maybe toss in Hayes as a sweetner, move his impending extension with Nets needing some size... Where getting CJ, might allow them to trade Kyrie..

Want to just touch on my point earlier concerning Mark at 8th vs say Koloko as a defensive rim runner early 2nd round

Height - #8 (Mark 7'.25") vs #30 (Koloko 6'11") 1.25" difference
standing reach - #8 (Mark 9'9") vs #30 (Koloko 9'5") 4" difference
Wingspan - #8 (Mark 7'6.6") vs #30 (Koloko 7'4.25") 1.5" difference

Standing Vert - #8 (Mark not in top 5( vs #0 (Koloko 28.00) #1 among centres
Max vert - #8 (Mark not in top 5) vs #30 (Koloko 33.5) #1 among centress
Shuttle run - #8 (Mark not in top 5) vs #30 (Koloko 3.19) #1 among centres

Lane agility - #8 (Mark not in top 5) vs #30 (Koloko 11.30) #1 among centres
3/4 sprint - #8 (Mark not in top 5) vs #30 (Koloko 3.27) #1 among centres

In my above suggestion. NO's IMO should package both 2nd round picks for the 30th pick & take Koloko as the defensive rim runner. Reason for trading upto 30 would be the cheap rookie scale & control apposed to the short contract control of the 2nd round.


I haven't seen Mark's athletic testing popup yet, so not sure how he is looking in that area. I also want to be clear, Im 100% with you. I would much rather spend a late 1st/early 2nd on a rim running defensive big. That to me is always the ideal scenario.

With that said, I think Mark projects out to be the much better player, again defensively he is as elite as they come. So I think there will be a significant gap between the two of them when it comes to their NBA impact. But with that said, Im definitely not against the idea of Koloko late 1st or in the 2nd. I would call it an ideal draft if the Pels left with Mathurin/AJ from 8, and a defensive rim running big like Koloko in the 2nd, home run draft in my opinion.

Again my whole Mark at 8 talk is with the mindset of this front office not wanting to go big guard and wanting to go big because of CJ. If that is the case, my hope would be they go Mark over say Duren. So if that is the case, I think Mark would be the best case scenario out of that worst case scenario haha. Im still 100% in the thought process that the ideal draft at 8 is Mathruin/AJ.
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Re: Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft. 

Post#300 » by Whole Truth » Wed May 18, 2022 9:29 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Agreed 100% on all of this. I dont even think best case scenario is CJ being the 6th man, I think best case scenario is he isnt on the team next year. And this is coming from someone who thought the trade was a solid trade at the time. But CJ really showed the kind of role he expects to play and will play. He came in and there is no debating he took over the #1 option role. Even if next year they move him to the 6th man role, the ideal way that would work is to have only 2 of BI/Zion/CJ on the court at once. But even in this scenario, I think CJ would just assume the #1 role whenever he would be on the court. While I think its clear as day that this team should 100% be going towards the direction of BI and Zion are the 1a/1b guys on this team. We saw at the end of the last year Zion played, the more on ball duties we gave him, the better he played. We also saw this year that the more on ball duties we gave BI, the better he played. The plan should be getting the ball in those two hands as much as possible. CJ is going to throw a major wrench into that.

So ya I still would love to see a big guard that can shoot taken at 8. With the idea that the starting perimeter would be a trio of BI/Herb/Big guard taken at 8. This team doesnt need a a traditional PG in the starting lineup. I actually think Jose could be a solid PG option coming off the bench from here on out.

But ya Im just saying they're most likely going to keep CJ in the starting lineup and wont be shocked if they go the big man route. And if that is the case they go, Mark would be the best option at 8. Even if it takes them a year or 2 to realize it was dumb trying to do a 3 man offense with BI/CJ/Zion, I think Mark could still be a good fit alongside the main core going forward. Truly an elite rim protector, good mobility, and I think solid promise as a shooter.


Once again, I'm on the same page. I'd ideally package CJ maybe to the Kings who are looking for a win now player (Maybe 3 team trade) with a pick or 2 packaged to move into the 4th pick slot. Maube Kings are still interested in Simmons & with Nets also looking to win now, NO's could end up with the pick in this 3 team scenario.. Maybe toss in Hayes as a sweetner, move his impending extension with Nets needing some size... Where getting CJ, might allow them to trade Kyrie..

Want to just touch on my point earlier concerning Mark at 8th vs say Koloko as a defensive rim runner early 2nd round

Height - #8 (Mark 7'.25") vs #30 (Koloko 6'11") 1.25" difference
standing reach - #8 (Mark 9'9") vs #30 (Koloko 9'5") 4" difference
Wingspan - #8 (Mark 7'6.6") vs #30 (Koloko 7'4.25") 1.5" difference

Standing Vert - #8 (Mark not in top 5( vs #0 (Koloko 28.00) #1 among centres
Max vert - #8 (Mark not in top 5) vs #30 (Koloko 33.5) #1 among centress
Shuttle run - #8 (Mark not in top 5) vs #30 (Koloko 3.19) #1 among centres

Lane agility - #8 (Mark not in top 5) vs #30 (Koloko 11.30) #1 among centres
3/4 sprint - #8 (Mark not in top 5) vs #30 (Koloko 3.27) #1 among centres

In my above suggestion. NO's IMO should package both 2nd round picks for the 30th pick & take Koloko as the defensive rim runner. Reason for trading upto 30 would be the cheap rookie scale & control apposed to the short contract control of the 2nd round.


I haven't seen Mark's athletic testing popup yet, so not sure how he is looking in that area. I also want to be clear, Im 100% with you. I would much rather spend a late 1st/early 2nd on a rim running defensive big. That to me is always the ideal scenario.

With that said, I think Mark projects out to be the much better player, again defensively he is as elite as they come. So I think there will be a significant gap between the two of them when it comes to their NBA impact. But with that said, Im definitely not against the idea of Koloko late 1st or in the 2nd. I would call it an ideal draft if the Pels left with Mathurin/AJ from 8, and a defensive rim running big like Koloko in the 2nd, home run draft in my opinion.

Again my whole Mark at 8 talk is with the mindset of this front office not wanting to go big guard and wanting to go big because of CJ. If that is the case, my hope would be they go Mark over say Duren. So if that is the case, I think Mark would be the best case scenario out of that worst case scenario haha. Im still 100% in the thought process that the ideal draft at 8 is Mathruin/AJ.


I saw this play out with Toronto. Jonas was a big part of their ECF's run before he got hurt in the Miami series but before he did, at the time he knocked out his counterpart first so Heat were without their big man aswell but Jonas & the Raptors could never hurdle the Cavs because of their ability to stretch the floor with Love at the 5 but a good part of that was because of the combination defense of Derozan.

Jonas played 20mins a game at that point & was a part time player yet he was the reason.... Raptors traded for Bizz & Ibaka a small ball 5 & none could help Derozan overcome the Cavs because Jonas was not the main issue just like this current situation. NO's will unsuccessfully like Portland try to win with CJ.

Nance had a strong series against the Suns & he helped mask CJ's flaws to an extent but the main reason Suns won is because Paul was able to get to his spots & didn't have to concern himself with playing defense, where he got to rest...

IMO, Getting a big to compliment CJ would be the 2nd dumbest thing this franshice could do next to extending him.

Whereas Jonas is value at 15m, would easily & readily accept a demotion to the bench, if it was best for this team where his salary would be manageable.

Priority 1 - big 3&D gaurd to replace CJ. = Mathurin/Herb/BI/Zion-- priority 2

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