Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft.

[Whole Truth]

Sharpe's shooting mix -

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[Whole Truth]

NBA draft net has Ivey going #1 which bodes well for NO's.
They have Chet mocked #4 behind Smith & Bandhero
They have Sharpe as low as 12 where if he's there at 8 I have him ranked ahead of Mathurin & Griffin.
They have Mathurin going to Sacramento
Griffin at 8 to NO's

Whether NO's get some draft luck or not they're sitting in a great spot.

[Whole Truth]

Pelicans trade -

Graham 4yrs 11m
Hayes 2yr 5.3m impending extension
Kira 2yrs 3.8m

for

Mike Conley 3yrs 21m

NO's clear 2 roster spots, shed a yr off Graham's contract & consolidate salary into a veteran, defensive, pnr PG.

Jonas - Hermangomez - (top 4, Chet or Smith)
Zion - Nance
BI - Murphy
Herb - CJ
Conley - Alvarado - (8th, Sharpe, Mathurin, Griffin)

Lakers pick top 4 (Smith, Chet, Sharpe?) or 8th (Sharpe, Mathurin, Griffin)

Top 4 potentially replaces Jonas down the line
8th potentially replaces Conley/CJ down the line

[Whole Truth]

Jazz get a couple of young players for an ageing Conley if they decide to blow it up this offseason. NO's use Graham as the salary filler. (Not sure if additional pick value is needed or not for either side but that's the general concept behind the idea).

- Consolidating 3 roster spots into one. Cleans up minute distribution & opens a cheap development path for the Lakers pick.
- Sheds the last yr 11m off Graham's contract.
- Removes the need to extend Hayes with the cap situation growing
- Temporarily fills the need for a defensive guard who can run an offense, possibly mentor for a 2-3yr development gap.
- Pushes CJ into a more apt 6th man role the way Spurs utilized Manu.

NO's draft a big raw guard at 8, they'd have a 2-3 yr development gap

NO's would position themselves to contend with the veteran Conley, develop the future with the 8th pick, possibly lucking into another Laker gift 23, 24 or 25... while cleaning up the cap, minute distribution & roles

[Whole Truth]

If NO's luck into a top 4 pick (Chet/Smith).

NO's trade - Zion to East team for a top 4 pick or young star +.
OKC trade - SGA to NO's for the East teams top pick or young player .

Jonas - Hermangomez/Nance/Smith
Smith- Hayes/Nance
BI - Murphy/Naji
Herb - CJ/Graham
SGA - Alvarado/Kira

[Whole Truth]

I asked the Jazz board what it would take for them to trade Conley..

The response - Any. If the Jazz don't have to give up value to move Conley, then it's a win for the Jazz.

If this is the case, NO'c can take Kira out & replace him with Temple. 3 smaller contracts & a young upside big man if they decide to deal Gobert for value. Conley is not worth the potential according to Jazz fans but it helps move Graham, clear impending extension & open 2 roster spots, especially if NO's jump top 4 & are eying another big man like Smith or Chet..

NO's trade - (Graham, Hayes, Temple) for (Conley)

Kf Conley's body can't hold up, NO's still have CJ, Kira & potentially the 8th pick as insurance. I like the fact that a true 2 way PG can also potentially push CJ into the 6th man role off the bench where Green can choose to close with him or not & he can lead the bench unit instead of dominating the ball with Zion & BI ...

[Whole Truth]

I read NO"s content... Not surprisingly Jonas is getting blame for NOls not beating the Suns. lol

Knew this was going to happen the minute Griffin traded for a volume scorer who adds to the defensive issues. Despite Jonas & BI already turning the teams season around, their success is beacuse of CJ's leadership, the medias narrative who probably watched no NO's games at least pre trade.. In the PO's CJ's poor & forced performance on both ends had the rookies looking more composed in their first ever appearance. I'd argue subbing Murphy out in game 6 cost them the game. Nope, the issue is Jonas ability to gaurd in space where Paul was allowed to get to his spots, easily. CJ was better paired with Nance because Nance can gaurd in space. Jonas was better paired with the guy they traded CJ for... Hart could both defend & was a willing passer.. look no further than how Jonas performed in his 5 games against the Clippers with Hart vs CJ. The 3 blowout wins... Jonas efficiemcy was more of a focal point with Hart playing D & setting the table. The 2 losses with CJ like the Suns series, he had a reduced offensive role which resutlted in him being more of a defensive liability than efficient option, while Clippers'Suns guards had their way with CJ on both ends. See game 3 of the Suns series where Jonas got all of 5 touches, mostly due to his work on the boards. CP3 got to his spots & set up Ayton/McGee for open looks all game no matter who was playing C. The loss pinned not only on Jonas but the centre position as a whole, as CJ jacked up 26 shots on 30% efficiency, providing little to nothing defensively.

Reason Suns didn't switch Bridges off CJ with BI cooking is because he was forcing 14+15 empty possessions a game for the series with no adjustment from CJ. 10-12 empty attempts & a couple of bad TO's on a poor 2-1 asisst to TO rate while he brought nothing to the table defensively. Suns used Ayton hitting open 10-15ft jumpers to get Jonas away from the rim & off the boards, Ayton did little to create his own offense in the series, his offense was setup off of Paul getting to his spots, where of course the blame falls on the big that can't guard in space not preventing, slowing dribble penetration. Where Green had to switch Herb onto the smaller/quicker Paul, instead of a wing with the ability to roam & help. Saw this story with Derozan & guess what, Ja was no defender himself either but he's obviously Memphis' future where NO's can't make that case for a 30yo CJ. Last yr vs Jazz Jenkins had to hide Ja in the post & find a way to stop both Conley & Mitchell with mainly just Brooks as their perimeter defender. Reason they won game one with Mitchell out but struggled to guard both guard spots in his return to lose 4 straight.

Jonas at the least was a main reason NO's won the battle on the boards & forced Suns to play big where Jax ended up struggling... the lone game they went to him offensively & didn't ignore him, he delivered a win off that performance in game 4, outplaying Ayton because he was actually involved & got touches.

CJ drawing Bridges defensive attention only works if he's either scoring or moving the ball away from the attention, which he wasn't. Shooting a forced 35% on volime with 10-12 empty possessions a game is 36 potential points lost per game for the series. Hopefully CJ is watching the ball movement in the Mavs series ... include his 2-3 TO's a game with a poor 2-1 TO ratio for another potential 6-9 pts, it's 45 total, a lack of efficiency & defense but no, the problem is not poor efficiency, ball movement & ball denial, it's the slow big that can't giard n space who helped NO's win the battle on the boards, while they were actively trying to get him away from the rim, lol.

[Duke4life831]

I asked the Jazz board what it would take for them to trade Conley..

The response - Any. If the Jazz don't have to give up value to move Conley, then it's a win for the Jazz.

If this is the case, NO'c can take Kira out & replace him with Temple. 3 smaller contracts & a young upside big man if they decide to deal Gobert for value. Conley is not worth the potential according to Jazz fans but it helps move Graham, clear impending extension & open 2 roster spots, especially if NO's jump top 4 & are eying another big man like Smith or Chet..

NO's trade - (Graham, Hayes, Temple) for (Conley)

Kf Conley's body can't hold up, NO's still have CJ, Kira & potentially the 8th pick as insurance. I like the fact that a true 2 way PG can also potentially push CJ into the 6th man role off the bench where Green can choose to close with him or not & he can lead the bench unit instead of dominating the ball with Zion & BI ...

Conley to me looks cooked. He no longer plays defense and cant get to the paint on offense to save his life. 3-4 years ago I would've been all for this trade because I think a PG like Conley is a great fit with BI and Zion because Conley isnt a PG that dominates the ball. But ya he looked really really bad last year and him being 35 next year, I dont think its going to get any better for him.

Id do this trade if Griffin and Trajon call around and find out Hayes has no trade value left. Then I would do it because it would get out of Graham's contract because next year is the final fully guaranteed deal for Conley, so it could be a solid little salary dump. But with that said, I would probably rather keep Graham for salary matching purposes for a better potential trade later on.

[Duke4life831]

I read NO"s content... Not surprisingly Jonas is getting blame for NOls not beating the Suns. lol

Knew this was going to happen the minute Griffin traded for a volume scorer who adds to the defensive issues. Despite Jonas & BI already turning the teams season around, their success is beacuse of CJ's leadership, the medias narrative who probably watched no NO's games at least pre trade.. In the PO's CJ's poor & forced performance on both ends had the rookies looking more composed in their first ever appearance. I'd argue subbing Murphy out in game 6 cost them the game. Nope, the issue is Jonas ability to gaurd in space where Paul was allowed to get to his spots, easily. CJ was better paired with Nance because Nance can gaurd in space. Jonas was better paired with the guy they traded CJ for... Hart could both defend & was a willing passer.. look no further than how Jonas performed in his 5 games against the Clippers with Hart vs CJ. The 3 blowout wins... Jonas efficiemcy was more of a focal point with Hart playing D & setting the table. The 2 losses with CJ like the Suns series, he had a reduced offensive role which resutlted in him being more of a defensive liability than efficient option, while Clippers'Suns guards had their way with CJ on both ends. See game 3 of the Suns series where Jonas got all of 5 touches, mostly due to his work on the boards. CP3 got to his spots & set up Ayton/McGee for open looks all game no matter who was playing C. The loss pinned not only on Jonas but the centre position as a whole, as CJ jacked up 26 shots on 30% efficiency, providing little to nothing defensively.

Reason Suns didn't switch Bridges off CJ with BI cooking is because he was forcing 14+15 empty possessions a game for the series with no adjustment from CJ. 10-12 empty attempts & a couple of bad TO's on a poor 2-1 asisst to TO rate while he brought nothing to the table defensively. Suns used Ayton hitting open 10-15ft jumpers to get Jonas away from the rim & off the boards, Ayton did little to create his own offense in the series, his offense was setup off of Paul getting to his spots, where of course the blame falls on the big that can't guard in space not preventing, slowing dribble penetration. Where Green had to switch Herb onto the smaller/quicker Paul, instead of a wing with the ability to roam & help. Saw this story with Derozan & guess what, Ja was no defender himself either but he's obviously Memphis' future where NO's can't make that case for a 30yo CJ. Last yr vs Jazz Jenkins had to hide Ja in the post & find a way to stop both Conley & Mitchell with mainly just Brooks as their perimeter defender. Reason they won game one with Mitchell out but struggled to guard both guard spots in his return to lose 4 straight.

Jonas at the least was a main reason NO's won the battle on the boards & forced Suns to play big where Jax ended up struggling... the lone game they went to him offensively & didn't ignore him, he delivered a win off that performance in game 4, outplaying Ayton because he was actually involved & got touches.

CJ drawing Bridges defensive attention only works if he's either scoring or moving the ball away from the attention, which he wasn't. Shooting a forced 35% on volime with 10-12 empty possessions a game for 36 potential points lost per game for the series. Hopefully CJ is watching the ball movement in the Mavs series ... include his 2-3 TO's a game with a poor 2-1 TO ratio for another potential 6-9 pts, it's 45 total pts, lack of efficiency & defense but no, the problem is not poor efficiency, ball movement & ball denial, it's the slow big that can't giard n space who helped NO's win the battle on the boards, while they were actively trying to get him away from the rim, lol.

Ya Ive seen many people attributing the season turnaround to CJ. The season was turned around about 20 games into the season. That is when Willie benched NAW and BI went from being the 3rd ball handler to basically being the primary ball handler and de facto PG for the team. That is when the turnaround happened and they were playing .500+ ball for the rest of the season. Dont get me wrong, the CJ trade helped out for sure, it gave someone that could take some pressure off of BI and CJ in the regular season played great. But ya this kind of reminds me of Zion's rookie year. Again the Pels started off really bad but ended up turning the season around and making the bubble. And the official narrative was once Zion returned he helped turn the season around. When in reality the season was turned around a month plus before he ever returned. The season really turned around once Favors got healthy and was playing every game. Then all of a sudden the Pels became a pretty solid defensive team and BI was an all star. But ya the national media doesnt watch the Pels and basically just see a really bad start, then a big move happens (Zion debuting or the CJ trade) and they start watching a few games and see that the Pels are playing good ball and just automatically assume its because of the big move that must have done it.

And totally agree that JV shouldn't get any blame for how he played in the Suns series. He had a couple quiet games, but overall he played good. His rebounding was one of the main reasons the Pels were able to win a couple games and keep some other ones close. Hard to hate on your big when he gives you 14/14/3 (5.5 offensive boards). And I cant give JV all the blame for not being able to stop a CP3 PnR game with Ayton, that's not an easy cover for any big.

And ya CJ was just straight up bad, there really is no debating that. CJ led the team in FGAs, touches and time per possession. So CJ went full board #1 option and nothing you could do or say to change that. But here is the thing, he ended up averaging 22ppg on 48 TS%. And its one thing if he was forced into that #1 option because there was no other option. But BI freaking averaged 27/6/6 on 58 TS%.

Even though CJ had the most touches and the ball in his hands the most on the team, BI ended up having 8 more assists than him during the series. Even though CJ took 7 more shots than BI in the series, BI had 29 more points than him. Hell even game 6 when BI's shot wasn't falling, the dude dished out 11 assists. I was also very vocal on how I thought BI had a horrible defensive game in game 5, but either than that 1 bad game defensively, he actually played good defense that series. While CJ was horrific on that end.

This is also one of the main reasons Ive been very vocal about why I think the Pels need to trade CJ this summer if he isnt willing to accept a 6th man role. It seems like everyone just seems to think CJ is this great leader who will step down and be this off ball 3rd option behind BI and Zion next year. What is that based on? CJ led the Pels in FGAs per game, touches, and time per possession in the regular season after his trade, then did the same in the playoffs. This is a guy that came in a seized over the #1 option. If he was this great leader that understood when to take a step back in his role, he would've done that in the playoffs where he was playing like crap and BI was playing great. But he didnt.

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This is also one of the main reasons Ive been very vocal about why I think the Pels need to trade CJ this summer if he isnt willing to accept a 6th man role. It seems like everyone just seems to think CJ is this great leader who will step down and be this off ball 3rd option behind BI and Zion next year. What is that based on? CJ led the Pels in FGAs per game, touches, and time per possession in the regular season after his trade, then did the same in the playoffs. This is a guy that came in a seized over the #1 option. If he was this great leader that understood when to take a step back in his role, he would've done that in the playoffs where he was playing like crap and BI was playing great. But he didnt.

This.

First off, I don't think Jonas is exempt from blame but there's additional reasons for his reduced impact on both ends.

IMO, As you correctly stated in the bold. CJ made no adjustments to his game, regular season or PO's despite what he was doing, was not working... He just kept trying to force his offense over Bridges & multiple defenders, who had him locked down. Makes me lose hope that he can amend his game to start with Zion & BI as a complimentary piece. In turn, Monty made no adjustment either with Bridges despite Ingram cooking Crowder because CJ was shooting his team out of the game instead of moving the ball away from the defensive pressure, nullifying the fact his game was drawing the attention. It's inexcusable that Jonas had 5 touched in game 3 mostly off O boards with Suns going to Ayton in Bookers absense. who didn't have to concern himself, expell any energy to guard his counter part. Suns went to him for the entire first half, replacing the production lost with Booker, giving way to a rested Paul 2nd half. Why I kind of laugh at the excuse of them not having Booker. Ayton efficiently filled that void with the displacement of touches. Game 4 Green made it a point to involve Jonas offensively & it led to a blow out win.

What's most concerning to me is CJ didn't play smart at all. He played like he didn't trust his teammates, whereas his counterpart was out there thinking the game for himself & teammates. IMO, the real difference in the series. The last 2 Mavs wins show what I've been saying. Suns go as Paul goes...

Conley may be cooked. He's been dealing with nagging injuries but at the least it was a cost saving & roster shaping trade.. It could make him a potential buy low candidate if he does have something left in the tank... I remember the first yr Memphis traded him to Utah he did not play well then either, where there was some early buyers remorse, then he followed that yr up with a great season that saw them take the #1 seed before he got injured in the first round of the PO's. This is where NO's having CJ, Kira, Alvarado & potentially the 8th pick becomes insurance to that potential risk. Where it could be to a benefit to reduce his minutes played over the course of a season which might help preserve his overall effectiveness.

Trade benefits outside of Conley's impact on the court.

- 3-1 deal that opens 2 roster spots
- Improved minute distribution, role definition & roster shaping
- Avoiding Hayes impending extension
- Potentially buying low on Conley where he has a bounce back yr.
- veteran leadership & another character player

Rose was my other vetean PG alternative target for this particular trade package = (Conley/Rose)

If CJ is the team player he claims to be, he should be willing, otherwise what he's saying is lip sevice. I have no doubt Jonas would accept a demotion to the bench if it is was in the best interest of the team. He's done it both in Toronto, Memphis & for rookie development purposes, no less. I'd expect CJ if he accepts that role to be in the mix for 6th man of the year, which IMO would equate to a successful yr for NO's as qyality depth matters over a full season.

It's not how u start, it's how u finish.

Zion & BI need perimeter defense as much as they need spacing, NO's shouldn't be sacraficing one for the other. So the goal IMO should be a big 2 way guard with atleast minimal PG skills, where he can atleast take care of the ball, if not be a secondary playmaker. Not a big ask considering NO's can address that need with potentially the 8th pick. I'd suggest Murphy but his handles need work.

[Whole Truth]

I just touched on this the other day talking about the Memphis, Jazz, series, where Jenkins had to try & hide Morant in the post. Jonas was outright in the line of fire for the best 3pt shooting team in the league last yr.

Realize, Jonas with 3J out all yr & no Bane starting, helped Morant get to the PO's in his 2nd season with Memphis. Then got blamed for the best team & 3pt shooting team in the league, ousting them. The worse possible matchup for him Jazz haveing one of the best pnr PG's in Conley, a DPOY player at his position & the best 3pt shooting team on volume. Memphis lost because - Jonas, lol

Memphis are 20-2 if you take away the give away games at the end of the yr without Ja because they're that much better defensively without him.

The concern here for NO's is, CJ is Ja, without the ability & upside to cater for. Really hope if NO's plan to extend CJ, it's with him accepting the 6th man role moving forward, otherwise it will be IMO a catastrophic mistake to give him that extension. You saw first hand why the Blazzers never went nowhere for years I might add in the Suns series... no ball movement & no defense... It's the slow footed big man that allowed Paul to get to his spots, where Ayton was mainly a spot up shooter who created little to nothing for himself.

However, none is going to say Memphis is better off without Ja because of the flash in his game & the marketability this league caters too.. That being the main reason Ja's game is important to Memphis' future. It's a stars league. Fans aren't tuning in to see Memphis play D, they tuning in to see Ja jump over defenders & the league will cater to thet fact.

Some call it earned respect, I, know better.

Jonas & BI were the teams backbone all yr but everything is being acredited to the named player, CJ. The trade that changed everything, lol. No. If anything, this trade will clamp the ceiling of this team moving forward if CJ remains the starting guard with Herb being the lone + defender. IMO, if NO's extend CJ they will be signing away this teams future for the next half decade unless he agrees to come off the bench on his cap crippling max contract, they can make the concession in free agency with their pick collection. This is why I was not pro CJ trade though it's nice he brought some name power & off the court benefits.

C - Jonas nearing 30 can be upgraded slid to the bench on a value 15m contract, provide a 2yr development & transitional gap,
PF - Zion set starter
SF - BI set starter
SG - Herb set starter - 6th man - CJ if he's not lip service + cap crippling max contract because NO's commited to trade.
PG - Big 3&D guard who can play off ball, compliment Zion & BI on both ends, not a catch & shoot, defensive liability.

If NO's want to make real noise, they can't sacrifice defense & ball movement with CJ on his combined cap crippling max contract.

[Duke4life831]

I just touched on this the other day talking about the Memphis, Jazz, series, where Jenkins had to try & hide Morant in the post. Jonas was outright in the line of fire for the best 3pt shooting team in the league last yr.

Realize, Jonas with 3J out all yr & no Bane starting, helped Morant get to the PO's in his 2nd season with Memphis. Then got blamed for the best team & 3pt shooting team in the league, ousting them. The worse possible matchup for him Jazz haveing one of the best pnr PG's in Conley, a DPOY player at his position & the best 3pt shooting team on volume. Memphis lost because - Jonas, lol

Memphis are 20-2 if you take away the give away games at the end of the yr without Ja because they're that much better defensively without him.

The concern here for NO's is, CJ is Ja, without the ability & upside to cater for. Really hope if NO's plan to extend CJ, it's with him accepting the 6th man role moving forward, otherwise it will be IMO a catastrophic mistake to give him that extension. You saw first hand why the Blazzers never went nowhere for years I might add in the Suns series... no ball movement & no defense... It's the slow footed big man that allowed Paul to get to his spots, where Ayton was mainly a spot up shooter who created little to nothing for himself.

However, none is going to say Memphis is better off without Ja because of the flash in his game & the marketability this league caters too.. That being the main reason Ja's game is important to Memphis' future. It's a stars league. Fans aren't tuning in to see Memphis play D, they tuning in to see Ja jump over defenders & the league will cater to thet fact.

Some call it earned respect, I, know better.

Jonas & BI were the teams backbone all yr but everything is being acredited to the named player, CJ. The trade that changed everything, lol. No. If anything, this trade will clamp the ceiling of this team moving forward if CJ remains the starting guard with Herb being the lone + defender. IMO, if NO's extend CJ they will be signing away this teams future for the next half decade unless he agrees to come off the bench on his cap crippling max contract, they can make the concession in free agency with their pick collection. This is why I was not pro CJ trade though it's nice he brought some name power & off the court benefits.

C - Jonas nearing 30 can be upgraded slid to the bench on a value 15m contract, provide a 2yr development & transitional gap,
PF - Zion set starter
SF - BI set starter
SG - Herb set starter - 6th man - CJ if he's not lip service + cap crippling max contract because NO's commited to trade.
PG - Big 3&D guard who can play off ball, compliment Zion & BI on both ends, not a catch & shoot, defensive liability.

If NO's want to make real noise, they can't sacrifice defense & ball movement with CJ on his combined cap crippling max contract.

I still think CJ was needed to get to the playoffs this past year. I know the turn around happened well before CJ arrived, but adding that legit 2nd scorer was a big addition for the team who drastically lacked a legit consistent 2nd scorer after BI. CJ's 24ppg on 58TS% definitely was a positive for them.

But ya with that said I 100% agree with you this was BI's and JV's team. And ya CJ bombed in the playoffs. And my biggest thing with CJ is this, with Zion back that need for that 2nd scorer is no longer there. They're locked in on their two primary scorers with BI and Zion. And there isnt enough time and possessions to try and have 3 guys who want the ball in their hands and want to shoot all out on the court at once.

So ya that to me automatically makes CJ dispensable. Because there are three major negatives when it comes to CJ and being that 3rd guy.

1. Its never been his play style. He is a ball dominant scoring guard who rarely is assisted on. So its not a natural skill set for him
2. Him accepting that role. Like we have stated earlier, there were zero signs CJ is going to be willing to accept an off ball 3rd option role. The dude came in and took over the #1 option even though BI was playing great.
3. His contract.

I think you could find a 3rd option guy that has a skill set that is more based around catch and shoot, who has some size and can play some defense. And find that for a much cheaper deal than what CJ is currently on and most likely will be looking for in his extension.

To me the only way to make it work on the court is if CJ accepts the 6th man role and you spread out the rotations so only 2 of BI/Zion/CJ are on the court at once and CJ accepts that when he is on the court, he is the 2nd fiddle to BI or Zion. But even then, that is a huge contract the next 2 years for a 6th man.

I will say this when it comes to that last perimeter spot (with the assumption of CJ not being it). The Pels are lucky enough where they can go a few different ways. Like you and I have been saying for quite sometime, I think the ideal scenario is you go big. You go with a Mathurin or Griffin and you surround BI and Zion with size/shooting/defense. And they can go this route with BI improving on the defensive end, but especially with Herb being able to guard pretty much anyone out on the perimeter. So that gives them the defensive versatility to go without a true PG. Then offensively, run the offense through BI and Zion the entire time. There is no need for a ball dominant PG.

I also think another route they can go is a smart PG who doesnt demand the ball. I know you brought up Conley, I personally think he is over the hill, but I like that kind of PG to pair with BI and Zion. I personally think Tyus Jones would be a great fit as well. Shot 39% from 3 this past year, 37% over his last 3 years. He is small, but he is a good defensive player so that isnt an issue. Night and day difference for this Grizz team defensively with Ja vs Tyus. There is zero picking on Tyus on that end because he is a really good defensive player. Then on the offensive end, he doesnt need to dominate the ball. He makes quick and super smart reads, and he can be that 3rd ball handler. Allow BI and Zion to be the primary guys, but Tyus can be there to run some sets to settle the offense when need be. And again 41% on catch and shoot 3s this year and had a 60 eFG% in catch and shoot situations.

Now again I would prefer the big guard route. But I think the versatility that the perimeter is working with nowadays, you can go either route. As long as they dont go with a player who is a ball dominant player. Because there is no need for that with BI and Zion on the team. And that goes back to the problem with CJ, he just no longer really has a place on this team with Zion back.

[Whole Truth]

I still think CJ was needed to get to the playoffs this past year. I know the turn around happened well before CJ arrived, but adding that legit 2nd scorer was a big addition for the team who drastically lacked a legit consistent 2nd scorer after BI. CJ's 24ppg on 58TS% definitely was a positive for them.

But ya with that said I 100% agree with you this was BI's and JV's team. And ya CJ bombed in the playoffs. And my biggest thing with CJ is this, with Zion back that need for that 2nd scorer is no longer there. They're locked in on their two primary scorers with BI and Zion. And there isnt enough time and possessions to try and have 3 guys who want the ball in their hands and want to shoot all out on the court at once.

So ya that to me automatically makes CJ dispensable. Because there are three major negatives when it comes to CJ and being that 3rd guy.

1. Its never been his play style. He is a ball dominant scoring guard who rarely is assisted on. So its not a natural skill set for him
2. Him accepting that role. Like we have stated earlier, there were zero signs CJ is going to be willing to accept an off ball 3rd option role. The dude came in and took over the #1 option even though BI was playing great.
3. His contract.

I think you could find a 3rd option guy that has a skill set that is more based around catch and shoot, who has some size and can play some defense. And find that for a much cheaper deal than what CJ is currently on and most likely will be looking for in his extension.

To me the only way to make it work on the court is if CJ accepts the 6th man role and you spread out the rotations so only 2 of BI/Zion/CJ are on the court at once and CJ accepts that when he is on the court, he is the 2nd fiddle to BI or Zion. But even then, that is a huge contract the next 2 years for a 6th man.

I will say this when it comes to that last perimeter spot (with the assumption of CJ not being it). The Pels are lucky enough where they can go a few different ways. Like you and I have been saying for quite sometime, I think the ideal scenario is you go big. You go with a Mathurin or Griffin and you surround BI and Zion with size/shooting/defense. And they can go this route with BI improving on the defensive end, but especially with Herb being able to guard pretty much anyone out on the perimeter. So that gives them the defensive versatility to go without a true PG. Then offensively, run the offense through BI and Zion the entire time. There is no need for a ball dominant PG.

I also think another route they can go is a smart PG who doesnt demand the ball. I know you brought up Conley, I personally think he is over the hill, but I like that kind of PG to pair with BI and Zion. I personally think Tyus Jones would be a great fit as well. Shot 39% from 3 this past year, 37% over his last 3 years. He is small, but he is a good defensive player so that isnt an issue. Night and day difference for this Grizz team defensively with Ja vs Tyus. There is zero picking on Tyus on that end because he is a really good defensive player. Then on the offensive end, he doesnt need to dominate the ball. He makes quick and super smart reads, and he can be that 3rd ball handler. Allow BI and Zion to be the primary guys, but Tyus can be there to run some sets to settle the offense when need be. And again 41% on catch and shoot 3s this year and had a 60 eFG% in catch and shoot situations.

Now again I would prefer the big guard route. But I think the versatility that the perimeter is working with nowadays, you can go either route. As long as they dont go with a player who is a ball dominant player. Because there is no need for that with BI and Zion on the team. And that goes back to the problem with CJ, he just no longer really has a place on this team with Zion back.

We're clearly on the same wave length but check again... Pelicans were on a 5 game win streak when they traded for CJ. Then they went on a 4-5 game losing streak post trade when we had our first discussion on it. Post allstar break, they had an impressive mini 3 game win streak before BI got injured for about 9-10 games. With Jonas & BI healthy. NO's were playing slightly above 500. Post trade, post allstar break, during BI's injury. NO's played at roughly the same 500 pace with CJ. So basically CJ was important to making the playin because BI was not available for a good portion of the games post break. An argument could be made during that 5 game win streak pre trade, they wouldn't have lost 5 straight after trade. Unfortunately I can't prove anything but them playing at the same win pace pre & post trade to suggest continual growth/winning with Hart, which is where the team was at winning 5 in a row before being disrupted by trade. Who knows where the team would have been with Hart. No offense to CJ but IMO Nance was the best piece in trade because he filled a greater need for a small ball 5.

As you state in agreeance with me, when Zion comes back, CJ off ball, even if he's willing to accept that role, becomes a defensive liability when you take away his ability to create for himself. So his game & impact is best utilized as the primary scoring option off the bench, to ignite the offense & carry the 2nd unit... He has a potential place & role still, if he's willing to accept it. NO's have enough draft capital to compensate the cap hit.

That said anything short of that role, NO's will limit their cieling as a team if they can't play a big defensive gaurd who cam catch/shoot & effectively play off ball. Compliment Zion & BI on both ends. While CJ compliments the bench unit & 6th man role with his scoring prowess.

Here's a great video breakdown of why I like Ben's fit for this roster. His weaknesses are mitigated by the fact the ball will be in Zion & BI's hands.

Watch on YouTube

[Whole Truth]

Imagine trying to contain Jonas, Zion & BI with Mathurin's off ball movement & shooting/scoring.. No team can leave or lose him on defense. Him curling off Jonas screens is drool worthy PNR potential, not even factoring in Zion..

His playmaking is weak but for NO's that's to a benefit. Good enough handles that he can take care of the ball, improve over time..

[Duke4life831]

Imagine trying to contain Jonas, Zion & BI with Mathurin's off ball movement & shooting/scoring.. No team can leave or lose him on defense. Him curling off Jonas screens is drool worthy PNR potential, not even factoring in Zion..

His playmaking is weak but for NO's that's to a benefit. Good enough handles that he can take care of the ball, improve over time..

Im in all agreement that I think Mathurin is the ideal pick at 8. I love the size, athleticism and shooting ability from him. I think he is the best combination of fit and ceiling. I have AJ second behind him for that 8th spot. To me AJ is a longer version of Desmond Bane. I think when compared to Mathurin, AJ is the better defender and the better shooter. But he isnt the same athlete and not as good on ball as Mathurin. So I like Maturin's ceiling better, but again I think AJ would be a homerun pick as well because I view him as another Bane and I think that would be a tremendous fit for this team.

Either way I think either guy would be ideal at 8, its exactly what this team needs. I know Johnny Davis might be there as well, but he is far more ball dominant and not in the same ball park as a shooter (the better defender though) as AJ and Mathurin. So I dont think he fits nearly as well as the other two. So right now I have Mathurin as my #1 option at 8, AJ as my #2 option, then a pretty solid gap to the next guy (assuming one of the top 3-4 guys dont slip down to 8.

But with all that said, this is all with the thought process of going with a big lineup and really letting BI and Zion take complete control of the offense. I have a feeling you and I are in the minority on this and I have the fear we are going to see CJ in the starting lineup next year and an offense where they try and keep all 3 of the guys happy and it wont be a smooth operation and CJ will continue to be a massive liability on the defensive end, but many wont want to talk about it because of how well liked CJ is.

I mean outside of you and I, there was very very little criticism of CJ's performance in the playoffs.

[Whole Truth]

Imagine trying to contain Jonas, Zion & BI with Mathurin's off ball movement & shooting/scoring.. No team can leave or lose him on defense. Him curling off Jonas screens is drool worthy PNR potential, not even factoring in Zion..

His playmaking is weak but for NO's that's to a benefit. Good enough handles that he can take care of the ball, improve over time..

Im in all agreement that I think Mathurin is the ideal pick at 8. I love the size, athleticism and shooting ability from him. I think he is the best combination of fit and ceiling. I have AJ second behind him for that 8th spot. To me AJ is a longer version of Desmond Bane. I think when compared to Mathurin, AJ is the better defender and the better shooter. But he isnt the same athlete and not as good on ball as Mathurin. So I like Maturin's ceiling better, but again I think AJ would be a homerun pick as well because I view him as another Bane and I think that would be a tremendous fit for this team.

Either way I think either guy would be ideal at 8, its exactly what this team needs. I know Johnny Davis might be there as well, but he is far more ball dominant and not in the same ball park as a shooter (the better defender though) as AJ and Mathurin. So I dont think he fits nearly as well as the other two. So right now I have Mathurin as my #1 option at 8, AJ as my #2 option, then a pretty solid gap to the next guy (assuming one of the top 3-4 guys dont slip down to 8.

But with all that said, this is all with the thought process of going with a big lineup and really letting BI and Zion take complete control of the offense. I have a feeling you and I are in the minority on this and I have the fear we are going to see CJ in the starting lineup next year and an offense where they try and keep all 3 of the guys happy and it wont be a smooth operation and CJ will continue to be a massive liability on the defensive end, but many wont want to talk about it because of how well liked CJ is.

I mean outside of you and I, there was very very little criticism of CJ's performance in the playoffs.

Mathurin's speed is what has him seperated from AJ for me. With Zion, BI, Herb, Murphy I think AJ is best suited at SF/PF apposed to PG/SG. I don't think he has the lateral speed to guard 1's in the NBA though he's a good defender for his natural position.

IMO, Herb & Mathurin are going to be getting out in transition.

How would you compare their abilites off ball?. I personally think Mathurin would be the better off ball option despite Griffin being the slightly better shooter.

[Duke4life831]

Imagine trying to contain Jonas, Zion & BI with Mathurin's off ball movement & shooting/scoring.. No team can leave or lose him on defense. Him curling off Jonas screens is drool worthy PNR potential, not even factoring in Zion..

His playmaking is weak but for NO's that's to a benefit. Good enough handles that he can take care of the ball, improve over time..

Im in all agreement that I think Mathurin is the ideal pick at 8. I love the size, athleticism and shooting ability from him. I think he is the best combination of fit and ceiling. I have AJ second behind him for that 8th spot. To me AJ is a longer version of Desmond Bane. I think when compared to Mathurin, AJ is the better defender and the better shooter. But he isnt the same athlete and not as good on ball as Mathurin. So I like Maturin's ceiling better, but again I think AJ would be a homerun pick as well because I view him as another Bane and I think that would be a tremendous fit for this team.

Either way I think either guy would be ideal at 8, its exactly what this team needs. I know Johnny Davis might be there as well, but he is far more ball dominant and not in the same ball park as a shooter (the better defender though) as AJ and Mathurin. So I dont think he fits nearly as well as the other two. So right now I have Mathurin as my #1 option at 8, AJ as my #2 option, then a pretty solid gap to the next guy (assuming one of the top 3-4 guys dont slip down to 8.

But with all that said, this is all with the thought process of going with a big lineup and really letting BI and Zion take complete control of the offense. I have a feeling you and I are in the minority on this and I have the fear we are going to see CJ in the starting lineup next year and an offense where they try and keep all 3 of the guys happy and it wont be a smooth operation and CJ will continue to be a massive liability on the defensive end, but many wont want to talk about it because of how well liked CJ is.

I mean outside of you and I, there was very very little criticism of CJ's performance in the playoffs.

Mathurin's speed is what has him seperated from AJ for me. With Zion, BI, Herb, Murphy I think AJ is best suited at SF/PF apposed to PG/SG. I don't think he has the lateral speed to guard 1's in the NBA though he's a good defender for his natural position.

IMO, Herb & Mathurin are going to be getting out in transition.

How would you compare their abilites off ball?. I personally think Mathurin would be the better off ball option despite Griffin being the slightly better shooter.

I dont think either Mathurin or AJ will be guarding 1s in the NBA, that will be up to Herb. And say there is a series against a Ja Morant and he's even torching Herb, you can slide Jose in to start to defend him. But I think most situations Herb can handle defending 1s if that is the opposing team's #1 guy. Either than that, would just be a very switchable defense.

Mathurin definitely has the speed advantage over AJ. He has a higher level ceiling because he is just more dynamic with the ball and just in his athletic movements all together.

When it comes to off ball abilities, I would give the edge to AJ. Duke had a very limited off ball movement offense, but when they did incorporate it, AJ looked really really good. Positioned himself well on the perimeter when it came to staying in passing lanes to always be available, and he was a good cutter as well.

So this is how I would break it down between the two of them

Defensively:
AJ is longer and I think with his frame will be stronger. I also think he is the more disciplined defender as well at the moment. So I think AJ will handle the wings and bigger stronger guards better. While Mathurin is the quicker athlete. I dont have much worry about him cleaning up his defensive mishaps. I think defensively its going to be a wash between the two of them.

Offensively:
AJ the better shooter and better off ball mover (cutter and moving to keep passing lanes open). While I think Mathurin is the better on ball guy and more dynamic overall. But will do well in the 3rd option role as well.

So I think they're pretty close just with some small tweaks differences between them. I think AJ will probably end up being the better strict 3rd option, but I dont see much of a ceiling beyond that. While I think Mathurin can be a good 3rd option, but a higher ceiling because of his dynamic ability AJ doesn't have. And with BI and Zion not having the greatest health record. Id side with Mathurin being a better insurance option for a guy that can step up and be that 2nd option while one of BI/Zion is missing time, while being a good 3rd option when all is healthy.

[Whole Truth]

Im in all agreement that I think Mathurin is the ideal pick at 8. I love the size, athleticism and shooting ability from him. I think he is the best combination of fit and ceiling. I have AJ second behind him for that 8th spot. To me AJ is a longer version of Desmond Bane. I think when compared to Mathurin, AJ is the better defender and the better shooter. But he isnt the same athlete and not as good on ball as Mathurin. So I like Maturin's ceiling better, but again I think AJ would be a homerun pick as well because I view him as another Bane and I think that would be a tremendous fit for this team.

Either way I think either guy would be ideal at 8, its exactly what this team needs. I know Johnny Davis might be there as well, but he is far more ball dominant and not in the same ball park as a shooter (the better defender though) as AJ and Mathurin. So I dont think he fits nearly as well as the other two. So right now I have Mathurin as my #1 option at 8, AJ as my #2 option, then a pretty solid gap to the next guy (assuming one of the top 3-4 guys dont slip down to 8.

But with all that said, this is all with the thought process of going with a big lineup and really letting BI and Zion take complete control of the offense. I have a feeling you and I are in the minority on this and I have the fear we are going to see CJ in the starting lineup next year and an offense where they try and keep all 3 of the guys happy and it wont be a smooth operation and CJ will continue to be a massive liability on the defensive end, but many wont want to talk about it because of how well liked CJ is.

I mean outside of you and I, there was very very little criticism of CJ's performance in the playoffs.

Mathurin's speed is what has him seperated from AJ for me. With Zion, BI, Herb, Murphy I think AJ is best suited at SF/PF apposed to PG/SG. I don't think he has the lateral speed to guard 1's in the NBA though he's a good defender for his natural position.

IMO, Herb & Mathurin are going to be getting out in transition.

How would you compare their abilites off ball?. I personally think Mathurin would be the better off ball option despite Griffin being the slightly better shooter.

I dont think either Mathurin or AJ will be guarding 1s in the NBA, that will be up to Herb. And say there is a series against a Ja Morant and he's even torching Herb, you can slide Jose in to start to defend him. But I think most situations Herb can handle defending 1s if that is the opposing team's #1 guy. Either than that, would just be a very switchable defense.

Mathurin definitely has the speed advantage over AJ. He has a higher level ceiling because he is just more dynamic with the ball and just in his athletic movements all together.

When it comes to off ball abilities, I would give the edge to AJ. Duke had a very limited off ball movement offense, but when they did incorporate it, AJ looked really really good. Positioned himself well on the perimeter when it came to staying in passing lanes to always be available, and he was a good cutter as well.

So this is how I would break it down between the two of them

Defensively:
AJ is longer and I think with his frame will be stronger. I also think he is the more disciplined defender as well at the moment. So I think AJ will handle the wings and bigger stronger guards better. While Mathurin is the quicker athlete. I dont have much worry about him cleaning up his defensive mishaps. I think defensively its going to be a wash between the two of them.

Offensively:
AJ the better shooter and better off ball mover (cutter and moving to keep passing lanes open). While I think Mathurin is the better on ball guy and more dynamic overall. But will do well in the 3rd option role as well.

So I think they're pretty close just with some small tweaks differences between them. I think AJ will probably end up being the better strict 3rd option, but I dont see much of a ceiling beyond that. While I think Mathurin can be a good 3rd option, but a higher ceiling because of his dynamic ability AJ doesn't have. And with BI and Zion not having the greatest health record. Id side with Mathurin being a better insurance option for a guy that can step up and be that 2nd option while one of BI/Zion is missing time, while being a good 3rd option when all is healthy.

Nice break down but I had AJ better on ball than Mathurin & Mathurin better off ball but you most likely saw more Duke games than me.

[Whole Truth]

I'm not much of a stat guy but I took this from the trade board concerning Conley.

Advanced Metrics this past year:
BPM: +3.1 (+2.4/+0.7)
RAPTOR: +3.3 (+2.1/+1.2)
LEBRON: +2.6 (+1.6/+1.0)
EPM: +3.9 (+2.2/+1.7)

[Duke4life831]

Mathurin's speed is what has him seperated from AJ for me. With Zion, BI, Herb, Murphy I think AJ is best suited at SF/PF apposed to PG/SG. I don't think he has the lateral speed to guard 1's in the NBA though he's a good defender for his natural position.

IMO, Herb & Mathurin are going to be getting out in transition.

How would you compare their abilites off ball?. I personally think Mathurin would be the better off ball option despite Griffin being the slightly better shooter.

I dont think either Mathurin or AJ will be guarding 1s in the NBA, that will be up to Herb. And say there is a series against a Ja Morant and he's even torching Herb, you can slide Jose in to start to defend him. But I think most situations Herb can handle defending 1s if that is the opposing team's #1 guy. Either than that, would just be a very switchable defense.

Mathurin definitely has the speed advantage over AJ. He has a higher level ceiling because he is just more dynamic with the ball and just in his athletic movements all together.

When it comes to off ball abilities, I would give the edge to AJ. Duke had a very limited off ball movement offense, but when they did incorporate it, AJ looked really really good. Positioned himself well on the perimeter when it came to staying in passing lanes to always be available, and he was a good cutter as well.

So this is how I would break it down between the two of them

Defensively:
AJ is longer and I think with his frame will be stronger. I also think he is the more disciplined defender as well at the moment. So I think AJ will handle the wings and bigger stronger guards better. While Mathurin is the quicker athlete. I dont have much worry about him cleaning up his defensive mishaps. I think defensively its going to be a wash between the two of them.

Offensively:
AJ the better shooter and better off ball mover (cutter and moving to keep passing lanes open). While I think Mathurin is the better on ball guy and more dynamic overall. But will do well in the 3rd option role as well.

So I think they're pretty close just with some small tweaks differences between them. I think AJ will probably end up being the better strict 3rd option, but I dont see much of a ceiling beyond that. While I think Mathurin can be a good 3rd option, but a higher ceiling because of his dynamic ability AJ doesn't have. And with BI and Zion not having the greatest health record. Id side with Mathurin being a better insurance option for a guy that can step up and be that 2nd option while one of BI/Zion is missing time, while being a good 3rd option when all is healthy.

Nice break down but I had AJ better on ball than Mathurin & Mathurin better off ball but you most likely saw more Duke games than me.

Ya I have Mathurin better on ball. AJ has a pretty solid pull up mid range jumper and a solid step back jumper. But thats about it. Either than that, not much of a threat to attack the rim from the perimeter and so on. The vast majority of his damage comes from being off ball. Which again I think lowers his overall ceiling, but also I think makes him an ideal guy if you already have your dynamic offensive guys.

So ya for me

Strict 3rd option only:
AJ > Mathurin

Good 3rd option with a higher ceiling:
Mathurin > AJ

If youre 100% sold on BI and Zion staying healthy, then Id go with AJ. But both with a pretty spotty health record, I like the good but not quite as good 3rd option, but with the higher on ball ceiling.

But ya back to what I think is the biggest question mark for this team going forward, since it seems like most mock drafts I see have the Pels taking Mathurin or AJ. What does this team do with CJ. Are they forward thinking enough to trade him or move him to the bench as the 6th man. Or do they bend over because he's CJ and he's a somewhat big name who said he likes it here and they try and make an offense that is equal for all 3 guys. Because if that's the case, offenses never work when you got 3 guys that want the ball in their hands to score.

Really hoping Griffin or Willie recognize this and not waste a chunk of next year or all of next year trying to find ways to make CJ work in the starting lineup.