Who has the best overall system?

Moderator: nykgeneralmanager

User avatar
Wade-A-Holic
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 8,055
And1: 0
Joined: Jun 09, 2003

 

Post#41 » by Wade-A-Holic » Thu Jun 7, 2007 2:25 am

JoeJohnson2two wrote:The Milwaukee Brewers have to have a top 5 Minor League system even though Rickie, Prince, and such are up in the majors already.

List of potential MLB players in the minors for Milwaukee.
Ryan Braun (will be up within a month, guaranteed)
Yovani Gallardo (one of the best SP in AAA)
Jose Capellan
Zach Jackson
Dennis Sarfate
Steve Bray
Vinny Rottino
Manny Parra
Robert Hinton
Lou Palmisano
Josh Wahpepah
Will Inman
Alcides Escobar
Cole Gillespie
Chris Errecart

Toss-Ups (Guys with all the potential to be Major Leaguers)
Hernan Iribarren
Mark Rogers
Jeremy Jeffress
Ben Stanczyk
Luis Pena
Vince Perkins
Brent Brewer
Michael Brantley
Mike Jones (still struggling - almost lost hope)
Mat Gamel


Don't forget JD Closser. He's a good catcher and it's a miracle he cleared waivers. Good defensively and a switch hitter. I doubt Damian Miller comes back next year and Closser will be a solid replacement.
User avatar
trwi7
RealGM
Posts: 98,320
And1: 11,587
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: Aussie bias
         

 

Post#42 » by trwi7 » Thu Jun 7, 2007 4:59 am

Wade-A-Holic wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Don't forget JD Closser. He's a good catcher and it's a miracle he cleared waivers. Good defensively and a switch hitter. I doubt Damian Miller comes back next year and Closser will be a solid replacement.


Closser sucks and we traded him like a month ago.
stellation wrote:"What's the difference between Gery Woelful and this glass of mineral water? The mineral water actually has a source."


I Hate Manure wrote:We look to be awful next season without Beasley.
cmaff051
Inactive user
Inactive user
Posts: 13,072
And1: 1
Joined: Nov 02, 2006

 

Post#43 » by cmaff051 » Thu Jun 7, 2007 5:30 am

Chach is looking a little foolish right now doubting Joba and his potential
User avatar
Chach
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 12,330
And1: 2
Joined: Jan 23, 2003

 

Post#44 » by Chach » Thu Jun 7, 2007 7:24 am

Small sample size. And he's a polished college pitcher who is pitching well in A ball. I'm not surprised, just like I'm not surprised at Kennedy's performance. And the fact that it is currently June 7th and he made only six starts does nothing to slash my fear that he's never going to be healthy enough to showcase his talent. mahalo
~Chach~
User avatar
nykgeneralmanager
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 14,118
And1: 213
Joined: Apr 10, 2001

 

Post#45 » by nykgeneralmanager » Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:12 pm

Chach, you're talking as if Joba has had 3 season ending surgeries in his career. His only ''concern'' is his weight, which can be fixed much easier than elbow or arm problems. You can bring up his tendinitis before the draft all you want, but find me one pitcher in the history of this world that never had tendinitis. Joba struck out the first 6 batters of his AA debut, you may not like it but this guy is going to be a top 15 prospect in baseball by year's end, and be in pinstripes sometime next season.

If a guy throws 97 with movement and location, combined with one of the better sliders in all of the minors (and the majors by the time he gets there) and is able to throw in a sharp curve with a developing change, I don't see how you can deny his potential because of a little weight problem.

And with Kennedy and Joba on the fast track, now in AA already, it has become clear that the Yankees have the best pitching in the minors.
User avatar
Chach
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 12,330
And1: 2
Joined: Jan 23, 2003

 

Post#46 » by Chach » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:41 pm

Never once have I said Joba doesn't have talent. It's clear that he does. But I have fallen in love with many a Red Sox prospects in A ball and have seen them slip for one reason or another. TINSTAAPP. Joba has a ton of talent but he's had injuries in the past that he is a 22 year old who is playing professional baseball yet is the size of a blimp. As a fellow 22 year old who's currently sitting at 230 pounds and has been a regular at the gym for 3 months, let me tell you, it's NOT easy to lose that weight. I'm not saying it is impossible but it is extremely difficult and every year that goes by without him losing that weight is going to make it that much more difficult. I do hope he doesn't get injured because it's a shame for talented players to go down with injuries but I am not going to be so bold as to declare him a top 15 prospect in baseball because those injuries concerns really do worry me.

And for your sake, remember that there is a difference between "hitting" and "sitting". I have never read anything that says that Joba sits at 97, everything I see says he sits between 91-94. Papelbon touches 97 but sits at 93-94, there is a huge difference there. mahalo
~Chach~
User avatar
nykgeneralmanager
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 14,118
And1: 213
Joined: Apr 10, 2001

 

Post#47 » by nykgeneralmanager » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:45 am

Chach wrote:Never once have I said Joba doesn't have talent. It's clear that he does. But I have fallen in love with many a Red Sox prospects in A ball and have seen them slip for one reason or another. TINSTAAPP. Joba has a ton of talent but he's had injuries in the past that he is a 22 year old who is playing professional baseball yet is the size of a blimp. As a fellow 22 year old who's currently sitting at 230 pounds and has been a regular at the gym for 3 months, let me tell you, it's NOT easy to lose that weight. I'm not saying it is impossible but it is extremely difficult and every year that goes by without him losing that weight is going to make it that much more difficult. I do hope he doesn't get injured because it's a shame for talented players to go down with injuries but I am not going to be so bold as to declare him a top 15 prospect in baseball because those injuries concerns really do worry me.

And for your sake, remember that there is a difference between "hitting" and "sitting". I have never read anything that says that Joba sits at 97, everything I see says he sits between 91-94. Papelbon touches 97 but sits at 93-94, there is a huge difference there. mahalo
~Chach~

Joba has reportedly "hit" 99 late in games, while sitting anywhere from 94-96 with ease.

As I said before, it is not as if he has had an injury history. Sure if he had a history of a slew of injuries all related to his weight problem to go along with a history of never fixing his weight, then there would be reason for concern. But he has already lost a considerable amount of weight in the past 3 years or so, and he has never had any real injury concerns. So you are basically "predicting" an injury for him down the road, which is not fair to him...some guys can handle extra weight, and maybe he is one of them. Predicting an injury is not enough to deny a player his status as a top prospect, and Joba will be one at season's end.

EDIT: Today's outing: 6 innings, 3 hits, 1 run, 1 BB, 8 Ks. In his two starts so far in AA, he has 17 Ks and 3 BBs with a 0.82 ERA.

And this is a quote from another forum:
Got off the phone with Alan a little earlier--he was in the stands today running radar on Joba's game. He said again Joba was pretty awesome...He sat 93-94 with his fastball and if somebody got to third or second , well, he just reached back--got another gear and turned loose 97-98. He said at one point with a guy on third Joba hit 97-98 NINE pitches in a row.


BTW, the quote is actually from Alan Horne's father who posts regularly on the forum. That's the "Alan" he refers to.
User avatar
Chach
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 12,330
And1: 2
Joined: Jan 23, 2003

 

Post#48 » by Chach » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:31 pm

The fact that he has had injuries in the past relating to his weight does create a minor cause for concern. Hell, his season was delayed this year BECAUSE of an injury. He does have a history of weight related injuries, that's the only reason the Yankees were able to draft him. He was a top 10 talent that slipped to the Supplimental Round because of injuries. So until he loses the weight or makes it through a season untouched, I refuse to annoint him as the Next Great Thing. Ask the A's how great it is to have Rich Harden throwing 70 innings a year. mahalo
~Chach~
User avatar
nykgeneralmanager
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 14,118
And1: 213
Joined: Apr 10, 2001

 

Post#49 » by nykgeneralmanager » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:24 pm

Chach wrote:The fact that he has had injuries in the past relating to his weight does create a minor cause for concern. Hell, his season was delayed this year BECAUSE of an injury. He does have a history of weight related injuries, that's the only reason the Yankees were able to draft him. He was a top 10 talent that slipped to the Supplimental Round because of injuries. So until he loses the weight or makes it through a season untouched, I refuse to annoint him as the Next Great Thing. Ask the A's how great it is to have Rich Harden throwing 70 innings a year. mahalo
~Chach~

Yeah that is a groin injury, it doesn't make much sense to bring in Harden's serious "pitcher" injuries into the discussion. If Joba's most serious injury in his career is a groin injury once every season, then so be it. The Yanks already had 3 starters on the DL with that this year, so I'll gladly take that over Rich Harden's shoulder injuries. Even Roger Clemens makes his annual DL stint because of a pulled groin.

If Joba's weight caused him back problems or arm related injuries, then I would agree with you 100%. But the guys worst injury is a pulled groin, give me a break already. How that can mean the difference between a player being a top 15 prospect and barely cracking the top 50 or so is beyond me. Every pitcher who has ever had a shoulder or elbow injury would LOVE to have Joba's ''weight problem.'' And don't bother bringing up his injury at Nebraska 2-3 years ago, as that was before he lost a considerable amount of weight.
User avatar
Chach
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 12,330
And1: 2
Joined: Jan 23, 2003

 

Post#50 » by Chach » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:31 pm

I never said he was top 50. In my mind, Joba is around the 25-30 range. He's got the talent to be a top 15 player but his injury history knocks him back a few notches in my book, sorry chief. I think he's the best Yankees pitcher (his ceiling is much higher than Kennedy's) and he close to Tabata as the best overall prospect (I'm hearing some rumblings in the scouting community that Tabata's power may never develop as some hoped so he becomes an extremely good player rather than a once in a lifetime sorta player). mahalo
~Chach~
User avatar
nykgeneralmanager
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 14,118
And1: 213
Joined: Apr 10, 2001

 

Post#51 » by nykgeneralmanager » Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:39 am

Chach wrote:I never said he was top 50. In my mind, Joba is around the 25-30 range. He's got the talent to be a top 15 player but his injury history knocks him back a few notches in my book, sorry chief. I think he's the best Yankees pitcher (his ceiling is much higher than Kennedy's) and he close to Tabata as the best overall prospect (I'm hearing some rumblings in the scouting community that Tabata's power may never develop as some hoped so he becomes an extremely good player rather than a once in a lifetime sorta player). mahalo
~Chach~

I agree Kennedy isn't on his level, the only one in terms of ceiling that can match Joba is Betances, but he has a long way to go to prove some things.

As for Tabata, he has wrist problems caused by cysts. He has also had some lingering wrist injuries dating back to last season, aside from the fact that he is 18 in high A ball and knocking on the door of AA. Nobody in that situation hits for power, most guys don't develop power until they are in their early or even mid 20s, expecting power from an 18 year old is setting yourself up for disappointment. Tabata will never be a 35+ hr guy, but if he hits 15-20 with a high average (similar to Cano) with 30+ steals and plus defense in the outfield, he will be a star. I can see him being compared to Sizemore rather than Manny as most originially did.
User avatar
Chach
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 12,330
And1: 2
Joined: Jan 23, 2003

 

Post#52 » by Chach » Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:00 am

That's what I was getting at. I was always leary about the Manny comparison but I think that was a combination of raw power and excellent plate discpline at such a young age If he's a poor man's Sizemore, he's making some all star teams so the kid has quite a future ahead of him. I'd rank him ahead of Joba but I think the gap is closer than some might make it out to be. mahalo
~Chach~
cmaff051
Inactive user
Inactive user
Posts: 13,072
And1: 1
Joined: Nov 02, 2006

 

Post#53 » by cmaff051 » Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:16 am

Chach wrote:The fact that he has had injuries in the past relating to his weight does create a minor cause for concern. Hell, his season was delayed this year BECAUSE of an injury. He does have a history of weight related injuries, that's the only reason the Yankees were able to draft him. He was a top 10 talent that slipped to the Supplimental Round because of injuries. So until he loses the weight or makes it through a season untouched, I refuse to annoint him as the Next Great Thing. Ask the A's how great it is to have Rich Harden throwing 70 innings a year. mahalo
~Chach~


Next big thing? You mean how like soxprospects.com, the place you frequent, compares Michael Bowden to Ben Sheets? ROFLMAO. That's hilarious.
User avatar
Chach
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 12,330
And1: 2
Joined: Jan 23, 2003

 

Post#54 » by Chach » Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:01 pm

And many of the posters over at nyyfans.com are just an arrogant and dimwitted. There are a tremendous number of posters over there with a lot of knowledge and expertice. Many of them (myself included) liked the old comparison to Matt Morris: a lot of pitches, good velocity, great command, workhorse type. Why the site boosted the comp to Ben Sheets is beyond me, probably because he absolutely destroyed the Cal League and is not coming into his own in AA at the age of 20. Don't lump intelligent fans with the moron fans based upon association. I don't lump you guys in with Hughes2.50 over there.

And how do you know I frequent the site? mahalo
~Chach~
User avatar
Chach
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 12,330
And1: 2
Joined: Jan 23, 2003

 

Post#55 » by Chach » Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:03 pm

Oh, and if you're looking for a concrete example of how stupid some people are at nyyfans.com,

Tex for Proctor and 2 of the following list: Kennedy, Clippard, Karstens, Rasner, Henn, White, Wright, DeSalvo, Igawa - Proctor's value will never be higher and will spare us from offering our high ceiling guys, and Texas receives 2 starting pitchers better than what they have and ready to pitch full time in the major leagues.


So Kennedy, Clippard, and Proctor are enough value to trade for mark Texiera? You guys really want me lumping you together with those idiots? mahalo
~Chach~
cmaff051
Inactive user
Inactive user
Posts: 13,072
And1: 1
Joined: Nov 02, 2006

 

Post#56 » by cmaff051 » Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:31 pm

Chach wrote:And many of the posters over at nyyfans.com are just an arrogant and dimwitted. There are a tremendous number of posters over there with a lot of knowledge and expertice. Many of them (myself included) liked the old comparison to Matt Morris: a lot of pitches, good velocity, great command, workhorse type. Why the site boosted the comp to Ben Sheets is beyond me, probably because he absolutely destroyed the Cal League and is not coming into his own in AA at the age of 20. Don't lump intelligent fans with the moron fans based upon association. I don't lump you guys in with Hughes2.50 over there.

And how do you know I frequent the site? mahalo
~Chach~


There are a few good posters over at Soxprospects (including yourself), but the rest of that forum is a complete joke and I cannot take it seriously.

And yes, Hughes2.50 is a complete moron. He makes all Yankee fans look bad, his ass should have been banned a long time ago.
User avatar
Chach
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 12,330
And1: 2
Joined: Jan 23, 2003

 

Post#57 » by Chach » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:20 pm

I am a message board veteran so believe me when I say that is how it is for every board. I've checked out nyyfans.com and there are some well read, reasonable posters. There are some well read, reasonable homers who's positives outweight their negatives. And then there are a whole sleew of idiots. Check out any of the large boards on the NBA page here: Celtics, Raptors, Knicks, Bulls. A LOT of morons. I can't even go to the Celtics page anymore without my IQ dropping. soxprospects used to be one of the best message boards on the net. It's quality has declined a bit recently but it's good outweighs the bad. mahalo
~Chach~
User avatar
GYBE
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,000
And1: 349
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
Location: Kanada

 

Post#58 » by GYBE » Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:27 pm

Chicago Sun-Times said the Red Sox are the frontrunners for Buehrle. Bowden and Buchholz were both mentioned as possible prospects heading the other way.

8)
cmaff051
Inactive user
Inactive user
Posts: 13,072
And1: 1
Joined: Nov 02, 2006

 

Post#59 » by cmaff051 » Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:35 pm

Red Sox are not trading Buchholz. He could be a top of the rotation starter for them.

Bowden on the other hand will be a #3 starter at best and is very much like Tyler Clippard. I could see Boston dangling him in a deal.
User avatar
Chach
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 12,330
And1: 2
Joined: Jan 23, 2003

 

Post#60 » by Chach » Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:45 pm

Sorry GYBE, I can't see you guys getting either of them. I saw that article and no one listed will be enticed. If Coco Crisp continues to have a resurgence then MAYBE Ellsbury becomes a bit expendable (I still love the kid but I am starting to worry about his AAA numbers) but none of the big guys are going anywhere.

I disagree that Bowden is like Clippard. I agree that they share similar attributes such as solid command and a wide array of pitches but Bowden is bigger (and there is no way Clippard is 200 pounds) and has a better fastball and curve (Clippard has a CONSIDERABLY better change, that is Bowden major failing right now). Since he was drafted, Bowden has been considered a 2-3 starter while scout struggled to believe Clippard would even make it to the bigs. Not saying Clippard can't pull it off but Bowden's got better stuff and better scouting history and he completely bitch slapped the Cal League. I'm talking Cy Young numbers in the best hitting ballpark in the best hitting league. If you see a football score, $50 says it was in Lancaster. I can't see the Sox giving him up for a Buehrle rental. mahalo
~Chach~

Return to Minor Leagues