Hasn't TheOWNED learned his lesson by now?

[GreenerPastures]

You don't go out of your way to sign middle of the road players to ridiculous contracts, TheOWNED. That's the name you deserve to be give with all the stupid mistakes you've made that have supposedly been "steals." GMAFB.

Frankly, I thought he learned his lesson the first time around when he gave Error Diarrhea (Edgar Renteria) a bad contract and Diarrhea didn't come through. Why couldn't they have just re-signed Cabrera to chump change? He didn't seem to have any problems adjusting to the pressure of playing in Boston.

Okay, okay, you must be saying, gee, why be so hard on Theo, he was responsible for that WS ring, you're a meanie. And that's all fine and well, until look at the garbage signings he made right before this season ... just... terrible. Julio Lugo is the most overpaid piece of you know what in the league. Or at least somewhere up there with the worst of them. What exactly has he done? I thought that he was this great offensive SS. Yeah. Maybe with the ******* Devil Rays. What has he done except for stealing bases? He is a TERRIBLE hitter. BAD defensive infielder. An overall dump in the pants, if you will.

Just, for the record, I want you to look at Alex Gonzalez's numbers:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/p ... atsId=6077
13 homeruns and 40 RBI???????? Are you ******* kidding me? This guy could have been had for PEANUTS as well. Okay fine, maybe he wasn't going to re-sign here. But there have GOT to be much cheaper alternatives than friggin' Julio Lugo. He's been a disaster so far.

Lastly, look at the J.D. Drew signing. He may not be a middle of the road guy, but he was certainly NOT needed with Pena and Hinske. Laugh all you want, but it's not like Drew has significantly outproduced them or anything. There was a red flag attached to this redneck before Theo one day decided, "gee, I want to go spend 70 million on a player!" Drew is NOT the home run hitter we envisioned he'd be, and he is a mediocre and impatient hitter. Why did we need him? Why did we "have" to throw money at this guy? Did we NOT have other options? Should we have friggin' signed Jacque Jones to a ridiculous contract because he is an "upgrade" over Coco Crisp? TheOWNED doesn't understand this whole moneyball philosophy he takes great pride in understanding and applying when he tries to improve his team. What an awful GM.

[Dirty Water]

I feel exactly the same way as you.

Peopel give him credit for the Beckett deal... but honestly it was his best deal because of the fact that we came out even.

What the F was the point of signing Matt Clement and David Wells over Pedro/Lowe. Granted, Pedro is hurt this year... but look where the other two are!!!

In my opinion, if we didn't win the world series in 04, theo would be absolutely out of here for trading away the most popular player for the greater half of a decade.

Don't get me wrong, I love the sox, I think Theo has just made some questionable moves since he's been here.

[Bleeding Green]

I don't think Theo was part of the Beckett deal. I hate that deal. Hanley Ramirez is so **** good it's just scary.

Derek Lowe would be kinda garbage in the AL right now. David Wells was a really nice signing. He did his job as #3/4 starter and netted the Red Sox George Kottarras.

JD Drew is awesome and he's an absolute relative steal to the rest of the FA signings. To say he's not an upgrade over Eric Hinske and Wily Mo Pena is an outright lie. Impatient hitter? Do you watch baseball?

Hopefully in a few years the Red Sox will be completely comprised of homegrown talent. This is ultimately what I think the Front Office wants (it's not just Theo Epstein making all the calls)--a major league team that is almost entirely comprised of players developed in the minors.

Just look at all the money the Red Sox are spending on the draft and on international free agents. This sort of thing takes time to develop, so be patient. Over the next few years we should be seeing Buchholz, Bowden, Brandon Moss, Jed Lowrie, Ellsbury, Justin Masterson, Kris Johnson, Edgar Martinez, et al up in Boston. Obviously there is attrition but you get the point. This is the best farm system the Sox have had in quite a while and it just got better yesterday when they signing Michael Almanzar. There are actually legitimate prospects in the high minors (Moss, Buchholz, Bowden, Lowrie, Ellsbury, Murphy, et al) with lots of high-upside players in the low-minors (Kalish, Engel, Beltre, Tejeda, Lin, Weeden, Place, plus many, many more).

The days of high-priced free agent signings coming to Boston is probably coming to an end. At least that's the plan it seems.

[The Rondo Show]

Theo has made plenty of questionable moves, but he also has formed a team with the best record in major league baseball. Theo has rebuilt a farm that once had Abe Alvarez as one of their "top prospects" and has been plugging in 1 or 2 guys a year from the farm who have been big reasons for Red Sox success.

Also, I will laugh at you for suggesting Pena and Hinske are half the player JD Drew is. Drew is absolutely on fire right now (check his numbers since June, he's raking) and has a long track record of being a very good baseball player. Wily Mo Pena has a long track record of having that dreaded potential label. He is the Gerald Green of the Red Sox, lots of tools to be real good...but right now, he sucks.

Clearly, we'd be much better off with you as the GM and you could dump all our young studs after they struggle for their 1st month in the majors. Clay Buchholz; 6 IP, 4 runs, 3 walks, 5 strikeouts in his MLB debut? Uh oh, he sucks. What an overrated prospect, let's trade him for an elite player like David Eckstein.

Bottom line: Theo has definitely made some questionable moves and some moves that look good at the time and don't pay off. He has made plenty of mistakes but at the end of the day, he has won a World Series and his team currently has the best record in the majors. Can you complain about some of the moves? Definitely. Can you complain about the success? I don't see how.

[JCizzle]

Theo just shouldn't be allowed to deal with shortstops, end of story.

[GreenerPastures]

Sorry, you're probably right about Drew, that's just the impression I got, I don't go on ESPN and look up player statistics every other day (although I will readily use stats at my own convenience to support my notions).

Like now. Bottom line: A .260 average with 6 home runs in July is pathetic. You are aware that he makes 14 something million this year, right? You can throw propaganda all you want. His production has been subpar. To suggest otherwise shows your bias. I mean, how can you deny that there was a huge red flag attached to his signing? The injury problems. An extremely lackadaisical attitude, borderline Manny levels. Arrogance. And yes I watch baseball... more than you want to believe... here are some players I've been impressed by so far:

David Ortiz (hitting is better)
Jason Varitek (hitting much better)
Dustin Pedroia (this guy is a machine... I didn't expect that outbreak right after I made that post)
Mike Lowell (just... very solid)
Kevin Youkilis (a BALLER... great defensive 1B, very good hitter)
Daisuke Matsuzuka (believe it or not, I didn't expect staggering and outstanding numbers, but he has been fairly reliable, he's adjusted well)
Josh Beckett (wins/losses, our best pitcher)

But I also take salary into account. Perhaps you don't. If you don't, you aren't measuring said player's efficiency and true productiveness correctly.

[GreenerPastures]

Just look at all the money the Red Sox are spending on the draft and on international free agents. This sort of thing takes time to develop, so be patient. Over the next few years we should be seeing Buchholz, Bowden, Brandon Moss, Jed Lowrie, Ellsbury, Justin Masterson, Kris Johnson, Edgar Martinez, et al up in Boston. Obviously there is attrition but you get the point. This is the best farm system the Sox have had in quite a while and it just got better yesterday when they signing Michael Almanzar. There are actually legitimate prospects in the high minors (Moss, Buchholz, Bowden, Lowrie, Ellsbury, Murphy, et al) with lots of high-upside players in the low-minors (Kalish, Engel, Beltre, Tejeda, Lin, Weeden, Place, plus many, many more).

Very good point. But we've only seen a little of Jacoby Ellsbury (who looks like a teenybopper) and David Murphy. Impressive as they've been so far, it's too early to judge them at this point. Therefore, Theo doesn't get any credit until at least some of these highly touted prospects produce in the big leagues like they're expected to.

[The Rondo Show]

Drew has not played to a $14M level this year even considering the inflated market but he has a track record of being a very good all-around player when he is healthy. He is starting to return to form the past month to month and a half and it won't be long before his AVG is back to .280+, his OBP is near .400 and his OPS is back above .850 or higher.

Next- well, the Red Sox have plenty of guys who were prospects from their organization already producing so I'm pretty damn confident Theo knows his prospects and many of the highly touted ones will pan out. Pedroia, Papelbon, Delcarmen and Youkilis all are very key players on this team and doing extremely well for under $2M. You could also add Josh Beckett to that mix since the reason we got him was our farm system.

Theo has not drafted all of them, but he has played a role in getting them to where they are today. If you've ever read Billy Beane's book Moneyball, you probably know that Beane did anything and everything to get Youkilis to Oakland but that "it was clear a young kid named Epstein was gaining a ton of power in the organization" (wasn't the GM yet) and Theo made sure the Red Sox refused to part with him. He also drafted Pedroia and was responsible for when to promote all 4.

I just don't see how you can say he is an awful GM when he has won a World Series here and has this years team in 1st place by a dozen games and sportin' the best record in baseball. Like I said, he has made mistakes like all GM's and he has probably made more mistakes than almost all GM's since he is so active but you can't argue the success he has had here. I don't really give a **** if he overpays for a quality player like Drew or overpays big time for a stiff like Lugo- just keep putting a winning team out on the field. He definitely does that.

[sunshinekids99]

Sorry, you're probably right about Drew, that's just the impression I got, I don't go on ESPN and look up player statistics every other day (although I will readily use stats at my own convenience to support my notions).

.

It doesn't take going to ESPN or whatever site to know Drew is a patient hitter. Anybody who watches a game can see that. Made yourself look like a fool with that post with just false info.

[Basketball Jesus]

But I also take salary into account. Perhaps you don't. If you don't, you aren't measuring said player's efficiency and true productiveness correctly.

Refresh my memory again; how does salary affect on-field production?

(Unless, that is, you're talking about MORP. In that case, kudos.)

[GreenerPastures]

-= original quote snipped =-



Refresh my memory again; how does salary affect on-field production?

(Unless, that is, you're talking about MORP. In that case, kudos.)

You don't get it. When you pay a guy almost $15 MIL a year, wouldn't you expect him to have, um, I dunno, a slightly greater impact?

In other words, it's about expectations.

We expected Drew to be better than this, and we're paying him well to fulfill those expectations, which he is NOT doing.

Poor production affects
(a) money that can be spent on improving the team
(b) the team's production

You see now people are just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing with me.

[Basketball Jesus]

No, I get that people are expecting more from Drew because of his track record and exorbitant salary. What I didn't get was, in the chunk of text I quoted, how salary is factored into on-field production. Whether you're paying Drew $15 million or $4 million, his on-field production is the same. The only thing that changes is the casual fan's perception that he is a waste of money for not producing when, in actuality, no matter the price, it could be construed as such.

Nobody doubts that Drew has underperformed but money has nothing to do with anything for this team. The Sox, much like the Yankees, have relatively unlimited resources at their fingers to pay for talent that they deem necessary to compete. If we were Royals fans and Drew was their RF pulling down the same salary, then we'd have justification to complain about his salary. But in Boston? On-field production is the only thing that matters. Cost is a very distant second.

[Dirty Water]

No, I get that people are expecting more from Drew because of his track record and exorbitant salary. What I didn't get was, in the chunk of text I quoted, how salary is factored into on-field production. Whether you're paying Drew $15 million or $4 million, his on-field production is the same. The only thing that changes is the casual fan's perception that he is a waste of money for not producing when, in actuality, no matter the price, it could be construed as such.

Nobody doubts that Drew has underperformed but money has nothing to do with anything for this team. The Sox, much like the Yankees, have relatively unlimited resources at their fingers to pay for talent that they deem necessary to compete. If we were Royals fans and Drew was their RF pulling down the same salary, then we'd have justification to complain about his salary. But in Boston? On-field production is the only thing that matters. Cost is a very distant second.

We do have financial limits. We do get outbid every once in a while. To say money is a non-issue is untrue. The exorbitant amount of money spent on Drew/Lugo/Dice-K just seems preposterous to me with the talent we have in the minors. Not only that, but look ahead to next offseason where you have a much better free agent class waiting with ichiro/a.jones/a-rod etc...

If you were to ask me, I would have:

1. Signed Trot Nixon to a 1 year deal (similar to what Cleveland did for him)
2. Resigned A Gon to a 1 year deal
3. Let Loretta go, bring up pedroia (which they did)

Just a lot of wasted money this year on new players while we could have stood pat, signed the current players to smaller deals, statisfied the fans, and could have even improved production. Seems like a win/win to me, but I'm trying to bring some objectivity, rather than defend all my Red Sox precious moves to the bitter end.

[The Rondo Show]

-= original quote snipped =-




If you were to ask me, I would have:

1. Signed Trot Nixon to a 1 year deal (similar to what Cleveland did for him)
2. Resigned A Gon to a 1 year deal
3. Let Loretta go, bring up pedroia (which they did)

Just a lot of wasted money this year on new players while we could have stood pat, signed the current players to smaller deals, statisfied the fans, and could have even improved production. Seems like a win/win to me, but I'm trying to bring some objectivity, rather than defend all my Red Sox precious moves to the bitter end.

Alex Gonzalez signed a 3 year, $15M deal. What makes you think he'd sign a 1 year contract? I'd take Gonzalez over Lugo with both those contracts considered...but I really don't want either one on the contracts they got.

Also, Trot Nixon is completely done. What the hell would you want him back for? The Red Sox could water down the dirt on the warning track and I'll roll around in the mud once a game for the fans for A LOT cheaper. JD Drew is 10 times the player Nixon is.

And while you can't just throw money all over the place and pick up a roster full of albatross deals, BBJ's point was having to overpay and have a bad contract on the roster of a $150M payroll isn't that huge of a deal. If he was on the Marlins and clogging up 50% of their payroll; that is different. Take Matt Clement for example. The guy is making $9M this year despite not playing and does anyone really care? Did anyone even know he was on the Red Sox? Did the Red Sox even know he was on the Red Sox still? Probably. But it isn't that big of a deal when the Red Sox can throw money around more than anyone in MLB other than the Yankees (and aren't far behind them anymore).

[Basketball Jesus]

We do have financial limits. We do get outbid every once in a while. To say money is a non-issue is untrue.

The Sox have logical financial limits. While it is true the Sox are outbid and let certain players slip away, it?s not because of price and price alone. The Sox let Pedro walk and didn?t bother to re-sign Damon because they knew that, at any price, their production could be easily replaced. Pedro was an aging injury concern and Damon was getting older.

When the Sox want to spend, they spend (see Matsuzaka, Daisuke). They just don't spend on players they perceive as not being worth the money. Which is what happened with Drew; when healthy, he was one of the best offensive players in baseball. Nobody could have predicted this slump. Most people assumed he would not be worth the money because of his injury, but that was a calculated risk the team took.

Lugo...well, I don't know what the team was thinking there. Theo has had a hard-on for Lugo for some time now, despite him not being a very good player.

The exorbitant amount of money spent on Drew/Lugo/Dice-K just seems preposterous to me with the talent we have in the minors. Not only that, but look ahead to next offseason where you have a much better free agent class waiting with ichiro/a.jones/a-rod etc...

Again, what they pay Drew now will have no bearing on what they plan on giving to players this offseason. Never has with this team. They're not the Royals or Pirates; they don't have the same payroll concerns as the smaller-market teams.

If you were to ask me, I would have:

1. Signed Trot Nixon to a 1 year deal (similar to what Cleveland did for him)

Nixon: .244/.341/.329, .258 EqA
Drew: .261/.373/.402, .278 EqA

Why do this? And don't say price because price is irrelevant. Having Drew for that much money is not preventing the Sox from getting anybody else.

2. Resigned A Gon to a 1 year deal

Before we get all nostalgic for the Alex Gonzalez Era, please note that he isn't playing all that well in Cincy, aside from the inflated HR total which is mostly due to him playing in a stadium the size of most Little League fields.

Just a lot of wasted money this year on new players while we could have stood pat, signed the current players to smaller deals, statisfied the fans, and could have even improved production. Seems like a win/win to me, but I'm trying to bring some objectivity, rather than defend all my Red Sox precious moves to the bitter end.

Only Gonzalez is producing better than his replacement...and not by much. So, really, no. You're bringing quite a bit of subjectivity to this.

[GreenerPastures]

Gonzalez -- 13 home runs and 40 runs batted in. I'll take that over Lugo, who is a bum.

I don't know about Nixon over Drew, even with the salary discrepancy taken into consideration. But don't spout lines like 'Drew is ten times the player that Nixon is' because their stats prove otherwise -- taking into account their entire careers. They've both been garbage this season.

Again, there was NO need to throw that kind of money at Drew. Pena/Hinske > $70 investment that hasn't paid dividends.

[Basketball Jesus]

Gonzalez: .259/.303/.458

Again, let's not get too excited over inflated slugging numbers for someone that plays in Cincy.

[The Rondo Show]

Gonzalez -- 13 home runs and 40 runs batted in. I'll take that over Lugo, who is a bum.

I don't know about Nixon over Drew, even with the salary discrepancy taken into consideration. But don't spout lines like 'Drew is ten times the player that Nixon is' because their stats prove otherwise -- taking into account their entire careers. They've both been garbage this season.

Again, there was NO need to throw that kind of money at Drew. Pena/Hinske > $70 investment that hasn't paid dividends.

JD Drew is 10 times the player Trot Nixon is. Simple as that.

JD Drew is good at baseball, Trot Nixon is not. Simple as that.

Eric Hinske and Wily Mo Pena are not good at baseball. Again, JD Drew is.

Simple as that.

[Markos]

The only problem with Drew over Nixon is that we're locked in to that position for the next 4.5 years. It'll be similar to how Damon and Matsui will hurt the Yankees for the next 3 years.He could be blocking a guy like Place (long term) or Moss (short term) and as a result we'll likely end up trading those players which sucks.

Of course we may be able to trade him (and eat part of the salary), but thats gonna be hard.

[GreenerPastures]

-= original quote snipped =-

JD Drew is 10 times the player Trot Nixon is. Simple as that.

JD Drew is good at baseball, Trot Nixon is not. Simple as that.

Eric Hinske and Wily Mo Pena are not good at baseball. Again, JD Drew is.

Simple as that.

Their stats say otherwise. Simple as that.