Update: Shams says NY/Utah have began trade discussions for Donovan Mitchell part 3

[RHODEY]

Last thought on Randle. The man does not GAF about winning. He would pout during our victories if something went against his own personal interests during a game. Conversely, he’d often be all smiles and chirpy after a loss if he had big numbers. The guy is an effing loser.

If you want to bring in Mitchell, you better have a plan for getting Randle off this squad or chit is going to get ugly here. Randle is a time bomb. He is incapable of sharing the spotlight. When RJ took over the leadership role Randle went into a funk he never recovered from. He will loathe the attention Mitchell gets. Ignore at your own peril

I don't disagree, but it's going to have to work and that's that. If Randle pulls his same crap he pulls the same crap. That doesn't mean you don't go get Mitchell.

Plus (for some damn reason), this FO LOVES Randle. I don't know why, but they do. Thibs let him get away with murder last year with zero consequences for his horrendous attitude.

The good thing is now we'd have two players that are far better than Randle on the team. If he decides to be a complete ass again, we'll have two other leaders on the team to try to put him in his place.

Now that I think about it, maybe we should save one of these 1sts so we can unload Randle.

Geez, is that how things actually work? I didn’t know

Seriously though, I don’t believe this FO loves Randle. I don’t know how anyone can believe that. Their relationship was damaged last season by Randle’s behavior and this is a business so nobody is walking about the halls of power with moon pies for eyes shooting out little pink hearts in Randle’s direction

I see no reason to think this FO feels obligated to Randle after the crap he pulled. If they can cut a deal for him they will. If not, they’ll have to figure out how to manage him. Worst case scenario is he plays out his contract in a diminished capacity and he’ll have to suck it up or be sent home

Just based on outward appearances it just seems that way. Them all out in Dallas looking chummy chummy...For a comparison, have we seen Nets Brass paling out with Kyrie in public recently?

After all the crap he pulled it would be logical to think the relationship is damaged, but the outward signs don't point to it. No rumors of him being shopped...al we hearing is Obi being included in the latest trade scenarios. So to me that tell me they are committed to Randle....at least in the short term.

[Synciere]

Rank these guys in order from most to least valuable:

Grimes
Quickley
Toppin
Reddish
Jokubaitis
McBride

Obi
Cam
Grimes
IQ
McBride
Joku

[snadler]

Hahn the voice of reason:
Reported requests from the Jazz for Donovan Mitchell are merely for public consumption. These things are leaked to show the efforts made. For the Jazz, what they are demanding, for the Knicks, what they refuse to do.

These are tone-setters.

The Jazz know the Knicks want Donovan and he wants to be in New York. The Knicks know they have the best pick package to offer.

As for players, look for cheap and expiring. So rookie contract types like Quentin Grimes and Obi Toppin seem like givens here. The Knicks do NOT want to move Immanuel Quickley. RJ Barrett doesn’t sound like someone in the conversation but a third team could want him to help facilitate.

The trouble spot is how to make the money work. That’s why I believe there may need to be a third team involved. Evan Fournier. Doubtful anyone takes Julius Randle, though I question how he fits with two ball dominant guards.

Also worth noting, I don’t think the Knicks want to move Derrick Rose for various reasons. He’s like family. Sending him to Utah would be tough to do to a guy you care about.

So there’s a lot to work out.

Also: the Suns matching the Deandre Ayton offer sheet from the Pacers effectively eliminates a competing option for the Jazz to work a three-team with the Nets (KD) and Suns. More leverage gone for Ainge and Co.

Just remember, you have to give to get. Everything comes at a cost and the market has changed dramatically for all-star players under contract.

[Chanel Bomber]

Donnie Walsh has set us up well too before impatience squandered it all

No amount of patience would've turned Stoudemire, Gallinari, Chandler, Fields and Mozgov into a good team.

Those who actually stayed in the league spent more time in the infirmary, and never played at an All-Star level post-injury.

If not for the Melo deal, we would've ended up with Deron Williams. Read the stories. It would've been a disaster here.

Process was correct though, if process is correct you will get there eventually, what Knicks do is never learning from their own mistakes and repeating same shİt over and over again

It's hard to grade the process because the NBA put an end to it before Hinkie could complete his work.

The Sixers haven't reached the ECF once with Embiid.

The Heat have done it twice since. Their highest pick through this whole time period (Winslow) already has one foot out of the league.

It's more complex than that imo.

[sol537]

I'm expecting it to be:

Grimes (gonna have a Danny Green+ type career)
Obi Toppin (gonna have a ATL Collins type career)
Fournier
'23 NYK 1st (unprotected)
'23 DAL 1st (top 10 protected)
'22 #11 Pick Haul
'27 NYK 1st (top 3 protected)
'28 NYK Pick Swap

Give or take a pick. We're in the endgame now...

[SelbyCobra]

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=-Iv3S1c5umIps5M2aRz2oQ

This is 100% true. Why is it even being debated?

Mitchell is good enough, and wins enough games even without being a championship contender, that on the Knicks he'd eclipse, not just Judge, but Durant - and easily - despite being the lesser player in the same city.

It'd be a great litmus test to show the rest of the country that rejects, or simply refuses to understand, how professional basketball in NYC works.

[Jay10]

I actually would give up Grimes and IQ and keep Obi if it comes down to that. We’ll have Brunson and Mitchell to score from the backcourt plus RJ. I’m happy with Grimes, but I’d miss Obi far more

I disagree, Grimes as a floor spacer and our best wing defender is far more vital to our team than Obi is, Randle makes Obi expendable…

Grimes is absolutely crucial to our team success, IMO

Where does Grimes fit tho? Hed be undersized at SF. Hes a pure SG so he wouldnt really be able to play with Brunson and Mitchell at the same time unless we wanna go real small. Then where would that leave RJ? PF?

Im just trying to picture a future lineup, and Randle seems the most expendable so thats where Obi comes in.

Id want to keep Grimes and Obi ideally tho, but doubt we can do that unless we give up more picks.

Brunson and Mitchell aren't going to always be on the court together.

There are times when Mitchell is going to be the on the bench, and Grimes would be the SG, and there are times when Brunson is going to be on the bench, and you could move Mitchell over to the PG position and have Grimes as the SG.

[KnicksGadfly]

what would be the mistake

Trading future first round picks that turned into Lamarcus Aldridge, Joakim Noah, and Gordon Hayward.

you put those guys together in their prime and you aint getting out of the 2nd round either

But if you draft those guys together, their salary is really low those first few years, and then you can build a really strong team

[Clyde_Style]

I don't disagree, but it's going to have to work and that's that. If Randle pulls his same crap he pulls the same crap. That doesn't mean you don't go get Mitchell.

Plus (for some damn reason), this FO LOVES Randle. I don't know why, but they do. Thibs let him get away with murder last year with zero consequences for his horrendous attitude.

The good thing is now we'd have two players that are far better than Randle on the team. If he decides to be a complete ass again, we'll have two other leaders on the team to try to put him in his place.

Now that I think about it, maybe we should save one of these 1sts so we can unload Randle.

Geez, is that how things actually work? I didn’t know

Seriously though, I don’t believe this FO loves Randle. I don’t know how anyone can believe that. Their relationship was damaged last season by Randle’s behavior and this is a business so nobody is walking about the halls of power with moon pies for eyes shooting out little pink hearts in Randle’s direction

I see no reason to think this FO feels obligated to Randle after the crap he pulled. If they can cut a deal for him they will. If not, they’ll have to figure out how to manage him. Worst case scenario is he plays out his contract in a diminished capacity and he’ll have to suck it up or be sent home

Just based on outward appearances it just seems that way. Them all out in Dallas looking chummy chummy...For a comparison, have we seen Nets Brass paling out with Kyrie in public recently?

After all the crap he pulled it would be logical to think the relationship is damaged, but the outward signs don't point to it. No rumors of him being shopped...al we hearing is Obi being included in the latest trade scenarios. So to me that tell me they are committed to Randle....at least in the short term.

Surface appearances rarely mean that much if there’s steam coming out of the boiler room

And of course Obi is mentioned more than Randle who is not that easy to package into a trade. Ainge will ask for Obi and not Randle. He’s not accumulating veteran contracts.

[robillionaire]

No, it turned out fine, they're a championship contender and have been a staple in the Eastern conference finals since 2018. The funny part is Mitchell is the same age as Brown and older than Tatum, you all will be saying "Well, maybe we can get____ in free agecy" after this trade because you all know it wont be enough, the same old song.

Well it seems this is shifting of the goalposts. Not by you but the sentiment in general. Boston has a borderline contender with a flukey run to the finals and that’s “fine” but with Donovan, he sucks because he didn’t make it through the murders row of the west because Gobert got exposed and if the Knicks build a contender it’s meaningless unless we win the championship every year. If the Donovan Knicks lose in the ECF everyone would crap on us and say exactly what I said above. Treadmill, blow it up, Donovan ain’t good enough, etc. Tatum looked like playoff Randle in the finals

Boston had been to 4 of the last 5 eastern conference finals with Brown and Tatum being 19 and 20 at the start of it, breaking through to the finals is a fluke though

Who said Donovan sucks? He's a really good player, he's not worth trading your future for. Also, lets be real, you wanted to re-sign Randle, I wouldn't really trust your takes on team building.

The didn’t win a ring so it’s a failure. Plus my opinion doesn’t matter, it was the Knicks wanted to and did re-resign Randle so you should worry about their takes more than me!

I’m still glad we have Randle just because I personally like him. Has f all to do with unbiased attempt at team building

[KnicksNext]

A lot of you guys think RJ is going to be a star/superstar, so if that's true, we'll have 3 stars and Randle (who was a 'star' a short year ago).

[KnicksNext]

Read on Twitter

[robillionaire]

No, it turned out fine, they're a championship contender and have been a staple in the Eastern conference finals since 2018. The funny part is Mitchell is the same age as Brown and older than Tatum, you all will be saying "Well, maybe we can get____ in free agecy" after this trade because you all know it wont be enough, the same old song.

Well it seems this is shifting of the goalposts. Not by you but the sentiment in general. Boston has a borderline contender with a flukey run to the finals and that’s “fine” but with Donovan, he sucks because he didn’t make it through the murders row of the west because Gobert got exposed and if the Knicks build a contender it’s meaningless unless we win the championship every year. If the Donovan Knicks lose in the ECF everyone would crap on us and say exactly what I said above. Treadmill, blow it up, Donovan ain’t good enough, etc. Tatum looked like playoff Randle in the finals

Don't forget Brunson torched him last year

We don’t have to worry about that because we got Brunson too! Brunson torched a lot of people. He was great in the playoffs. Point god

[Ghetto Gospel]

who cares how RJ fits into that system. he's going to be the 4th best player on that team, don't be so concerned.

honestly, he's a great kid, and appears to be really low maintenance. he'll be fine getting his occasional touches and standing in the corner. he can be our little andrew wiggins

he's got some work to do to play d like wiggins. i doubt he can. he aint that kind of athlete.

If that’s how we feel then why should we keep him? Like if he’s going to be the Grimes of the team then why not just keep Grimes who is better in that role? Like whats the point of giving up the extra assets to keep RJ if he’s going to be the 4th option.

because he can do some other things that grimes doesn't do, like offer more ballhandling/playmaking. maybe you can stagger him more heavily to play with more of the bench guys and give him a more pseudo 6th-man type role

[KnixtapeH20]

the people thinking keeping obi is a priority are really buying into the last couple of weeks way too much. with the guys we have, you need him to play d and hit the 3 and he was no better at julius last year at those things and he played against backups. he needed that last month just to shoot the same lousy percentage from 3 as julius.

Bull ****. U can tell yourself that all u want..

His first game where he got real minutes he scored 18 points in 40 minutes against a Charlotte team still fighting for positioning. He was 8-11, 2-4 from 3.

Next game vs Miami, 15 pts in 26 min: 6-10, 2-4 from 3.

Then he finished out the last 5 games of the season scoring over 20 points per game.


U can keep **** and cherry picking story lines / stats on a young cat that loves to be here but you're gona look so foolish once the season starts.

Obi & RJ haters gona have sooooo little to say once the season begins

[EricAnderson]

No amount of patience would've turned Stoudemire, Gallinari, Chandler, Fields and Mozgov into a good team.

Those who actually stayed in the league spent more time in the infirmary, and never played at an All-Star level post-injury.

If not for the Melo deal, we would've ended up with Deron Williams. Read the stories. It would've been a disaster here.

Process was correct though, if process is correct you will get there eventually, what Knicks do is never learning from their own mistakes and repeating same shİt over and over again

It's hard to grade the process because the NBA put an end to it before Hinkie could complete his work.

The Sixers haven't reached the ECF once with Embiid.

The Heat have done it twice since. Their highest pick through this whole time period (Winslow) already has one foot out of the league.

It's more complex than that imo.

The process of “the process” being a failure is just incorrect.

It didn’t fail because tanking doesn’t work it failed because of missed picks and bad trades.

If they kept Butler and maybe drafted a Tatum or didn’t ruin Fultz you’re probably looking at a dynasty

Also the story isn’t over yet. Having a player like Embiid always gives you a fighting chance in the playoffs.

It’s ignorant to think he can never win a title

[Meat]

Donnie Walsh has set us up well too before impatience squandered it all

No amount of patience would've turned Stoudemire, Gallinari, Chandler, Fields and Mozgov into a good team.

Those who actually stayed in the league spent more time in the infirmary, and never played at an All-Star level post-injury.

If not for the Melo deal, we would've ended up with Deron Williams. Read the stories. It would've been a disaster here.

Process was correct though, if process is correct you will get there eventually, what Knicks do is never learning from their own mistakes and repeating same shİt over and over again

are the knicks slated to trade any of their starters in this trade? how is this like the melo trade when they traded all but 1 of them

[GONYK]

it means drafting your own stars. you know what he's saying.

and since you're secretly working for the knick front office now, is this deal happening ? and don't tell me you're not, you defend them way too vehemently for me to believe otherwise.

p.s. if he doesn't pull this off i want you and leon fired

Yes, because drafting stars is so easy

The one player we tanked for you won't stop sh*tting on, so lets do that for 10 years straight, while simultaneously only playing the young guys, but never actually hoping they get better so they don't disrupt the tank

PS: I kept Mitch around for you, so stop whining

It's a lot easier to do at the top of the draft.

They never had intention of going for the cades/suggs/ivey types and being bad enough to draft them. They treat draft capital as trade capital. Thats my point. They are drafting role players...that doesn't mean they are building through the draft.

They are setting themselves up to make a trade. My point is they aren't all of a sudden going to be bad enough to make those picks good enough to draft a star. The plan was always to trade for one with the combination of young role players and picks.

What has a higher rate of success when it comes to getting a star? Drafting a kid and hoping he becomes one or trading for one that is already proven?

I'd argue that there are pros and cons to each, but purely in terms of getting a return on investment (a totally lost and abysmal season vs trade assets) the proven star has the higher hit rate.

The fact that they drafted role players, so that means they aren't building through the draft rings a bit hollow. 95% of every NBA draft are role players (if they even manage to stick in the league).

The Knicks have over half the active roster as young guys and they are fighting to keep those guys out of a Mitchell trade. They must value them to a degree that is significant.

Yes, the plan was always to be competitive while accumulating assets. Part of being competitive was drafting well.

[KnicksNext]

nothing you attributed to me represents anything i said in this thread

But you have said you don’t care about the majority of players and picks going out in the trade since we’ll never truly rebuild and we’ll never draft for a true franchise player. So just going with that line of thinking. Unless I’m mistaking you for someone else.

i didn't say you have to give everything. you have to beat whatever the best offer is, even if it's more than you want to pay. you won't rebuild. you won't tank. you already added long term salary this summer. you were brought here to get a star. that's what you promised. almost none want to come here. here's one that does. all the other caa young guys re-uped with their teams. if you want to keep this job you got to get this done. and if leon gets fired in a year or 2, the next guy will only try the same plan because they all do.

Another good point. This deal is Leon Rose' legacy with the New York Knicks. If he pulls it off he can kick his feet up on a table and ponder about his statue being built in front of MSG. Leon knows this is his moment.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Well it seems this is shifting of the goalposts. Not by you but the sentiment in general. Boston has a borderline contender with a flukey run to the finals and that’s “fine” but with Donovan, he sucks because he didn’t make it through the murders row of the west because Gobert got exposed and if the Knicks build a contender it’s meaningless unless we win the championship every year. If the Donovan Knicks lose in the ECF everyone would crap on us and say exactly what I said above. Treadmill, blow it up, Donovan ain’t good enough, etc. Tatum looked like playoff Randle in the finals

Boston had been to 4 of the last 5 eastern conference finals with Brown and Tatum being 19 and 20 at the start of it, breaking through to the finals is a fluke though

Who said Donovan sucks? He's a really good player, he's not worth trading your future for. Also, lets be real, you wanted to re-sign Randle, I wouldn't really trust your takes on team building.

The didn’t win a ring so it’s a failure. Plus my opinion doesn’t matter, it was the Knicks wanted to and did re-resign Randle so you should worry about their takes more than me!

I’m still glad we have Randle just because I personally like him. Has f all to do with unbiased attempt at team building

They're closer to winning a title than we have been in 20+ years, they are a contender with 24 and 25 year old players, they don't have to rely on free agency to fill out the rest of their team, they don't have to worry about whether or not some other team has their next 6 draft picks.


You endorsed it because you thought it was a good move and would help, just like you think this trade would be good.