Update: Shams says NY/Utah have began trade discussions for Donovan Mitchell part 3

[Synciere]

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Dominique is right. Judge would be huge if this was 30 years ago but baseball is for old men now. Unless the QB of the giants or jets become mvp candidates, it’s the basketball star in New York. Mad Dog probably blew his load again today after Domo said that.

[Meat]

It’ll be a tough climb for the Knicks whether they do or don’t make the trade. They are probably set up better to make the deal, consolidate a bunch of assets and get a legit top 20, #1 option type player. They have been building for that moment. I would have rather seen them rebuild thru the draft, but that ship has sailed and they have been ignoring that route for 20+ years so it isn’t happening

This is it...the rebuilding through the draft window is over...they doubled down on going this route by signing brunson who makes it even less likely we can get into the top 10 to get a difference maker.

Get Mitchell and then maybe you are a player down the road for a FA if you prove you are one piece away.

Bronson is a good player but that signing really shocked me also. RJ Mitchell duel looks better than Bronson RJ. Not sure Bronson RJ Mitchell is a road I'd go down. Think your front office said they aren't trading for Mitchell when they signed Bronson. Danny has to be looking at other teams now if he's thinking about doing a full rebuild? Front office you have now, I'd fire.

people seem to think time stands still after this deal, like rj, randle, mitchell, brunson all suddenly become untradeable and that no future improvements can be made

[F N 11]

At least RJ can somewhat play defense. What is Randle going to do when Brunson and Mitchell dominating the ball?

Cry?

[TheGreenArrow]

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Pretty much this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If spida isn’t a Knick this Fo will be fired!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TrueWarrior]

I disagree, Grimes as a floor spacer and our best wing defender is far more vital to our team than Obi is, Randle makes Obi expendable…

Grimes is absolutely crucial to our team success, IMO

Where does Grimes fit tho? Hed be undersized at SF. Hes a pure SG so he wouldnt really be able to play with Brunson and Mitchell at the same time unless we wanna go real small. Then where would that leave RJ? PF?

Im just trying to picture a future lineup, and Randle seems the most expendable so thats where Obi comes in.

Id want to keep Grimes and Obi ideally tho, but doubt we can do that unless we give up more picks.

Brunson and Mitchell aren't going to always be on the court together.

There are times when Mitchell is going to be the on the bench, and Grimes would be the SG, and there are times when Brunson is going to be on the bench, and you could move Mitchell over to the PG position and have Grimes as the SG.

I understand that, but Obi can play with all 3 of Brunson, Mitchell, and RJ. Grimes cant unless we play midget ball.

Obi will be the eventual Julius replacement because I dont see Julius working well with less touches. Obi is the superior off ball player which is what wed need after this trade.

[EricAnderson]

No you don't.

The Celtics passed on trading Brown for PG13 after his rookie year, turned out fine for them.

It turned out fine because of how good he became.

Odds are extremely slim that any of our young guys will be as good as Jaylen Brown

It didn’t turn out fine because they didn’t win a championship. Last year was a fluke season for them and they lost. That’s the logic we would apply to our team so why not apply it to Boston? They aren’t that good and they aren’t winning a championship it’s a treadmill team and they should blow it up to tank

You’re comparing us to a team that made the ECF finals 4 out of 5 years was just up 2-1 in the finals up 9 with 5 minutes to go and was a Curry legendary performance away from going up 3-1 and saying they are a treadmill team ? Lol you can’t be serious.

Tatum and Brown aren’t even in their primes yet there is an excellent chance they win a title or two eventually

[DaGawd]

Well it’s afternoon now and the trade ain’t go thru yet.. do we have to wait for mountain time? Mormon Danny not awake yet?

[GONYK]

it means drafting your own stars. you know what he's saying.

and since you're secretly working for the knick front office now, is this deal happening ? and don't tell me you're not, you defend them way too vehemently for me to believe otherwise.

p.s. if he doesn't pull this off i want you and leon fired

Yes, because drafting stars is so easy

The one player we tanked for you won't stop sh*tting on, so lets do that for 10 years straight, while simultaneously only playing the young guys, but never actually hoping they get better so they don't disrupt the tank

somehow picks 1,2 & probably 4 in that draft figured it out. maybe, try again then a few more times.

but fine, they didn't. so don't mess this up. figure out how to get it done

and i'll take your non answer as a confirmation. thank you.

The only thing I can confirm is that I'm not as hopeless inside as a fan

What is the point of living if you never feel alive shamm?

[mpharris36]

Yes, because drafting stars is so easy

The one player we tanked for you won't stop sh*tting on, so lets do that for 10 years straight, while simultaneously only playing the young guys, but never actually hoping they get better so they don't disrupt the tank

PS: I kept Mitch around for you, so stop whining

It's a lot easier to do at the top of the draft.

They never had intention of going for the cades/suggs/ivey types and being bad enough to draft them. They treat draft capital as trade capital. Thats my point. They are drafting role players...that doesn't mean they are building through the draft.

They are setting themselves up to make a trade. My point is they aren't all of a sudden going to be bad enough to make those picks good enough to draft a star. The plan was always to trade for one with the combination of young role players and picks.

What has a higher rate of success when it comes to getting a star? Drafting a kid and hoping he becomes one or trading for one that is already proven?

I'd argue that there are pros and cons to each, but purely in terms of getting a return on investment (a totally lost and abysmal season vs trade assets) the proven star has the higher hit rate.

The fact that they drafted role players, so that means they aren't building through the draft rings a bit hollow. 95% of every NBA draft are role players (if they even manage to stick in the league).

The Knicks have over half the active roster as young guys and they are fighting to keep those guys out of a Mitchell trade. They must value them to a degree that is significant.

Yes, the plan was always to be competitive while accumulating assets. Part of being competitive was drafting well.

If you are only willing to tank for 1 year each regime like the knicks then its probably easier to find a star via trade (if that star wants to come to your city). If you are willing to be bad for a 3 year window and shoot your shot multiple times then I think its just easier to draft your star...but the knicks are never committed to that process.

Picking in the late teens or 20's isn't building a team through the draft in my eyes. Its just like saying right now teams like DET, OKC, HOU, ORL all have more young talent then us right now because they committed to being bad. We are comitted to trading for a star which is why I think Leon is kinda in a position to have to do this deal...where else is he going for a start that wants to come to NY?

Oh and Spida is 25 years old...so he fits the brunson/rj timeline.

[robillionaire]

Boston had been to 4 of the last 5 eastern conference finals with Brown and Tatum being 19 and 20 at the start of it, breaking through to the finals is a fluke though

Who said Donovan sucks? He's a really good player, he's not worth trading your future for. Also, lets be real, you wanted to re-sign Randle, I wouldn't really trust your takes on team building.

The didn’t win a ring so it’s a failure. Plus my opinion doesn’t matter, it was the Knicks wanted to and did re-resign Randle so you should worry about their takes more than me!

I’m still glad we have Randle just because I personally like him. Has f all to do with unbiased attempt at team building

They're closer to winning a title than we have been in 20+ years, they are a contender with 24 and 25 year old players, they don't have to rely on free agency to fill out the rest of their team, they don't have to worry about whether or not some other team has their next 6 draft picks.


You endorsed it because you thought it was a good move and would help, just like you think this trade would be good.

sorry but they aren’t a real contender, Tatum got exposed as a fraud in the finals. He’s as a second option at best. They don’t have a Batman. Very sad

I still do endorse it, I’m glad Randle is here, if he wasn’t we’d be tanking instead of building a great team like I wanted to do. They are doing roughly what I wanted so I’m happy

[El Poochio]

No amount of patience would've turned Stoudemire, Gallinari, Chandler, Fields and Mozgov into a good team.

Those who actually stayed in the league spent more time in the infirmary, and never played at an All-Star level post-injury.

If not for the Melo deal, we would've ended up with Deron Williams. Read the stories. It would've been a disaster here.

Process was correct though, if process is correct you will get there eventually, what Knicks do is never learning from their own mistakes and repeating same shİt over and over again

are the knicks slated to trade any of their starters in this trade? how is this like the melo trade when they traded all but 1 of them

Not trading any starters is even worse cuz the discrepancy between their starters and bench was huge

[8516knicks]

Rank these guys in order from most to least valuable:

Grimes
Quickley
Toppin
Reddish
Jokubaitis
McBride

To us or another team? And depends on the other team.

In general (RIGHT NOW)

Grimes neck and neck with IQ because IQ has scored big numbers on occasion and microwaved, while Grimes is said to have great potential and D, etc. but has not excelled in actual games quite as much as IQ.
then OBi
then Reddish based on games for Atlanta, not here
McBride, if only the G league were the big leagues
Joku - simply for the fact he's not been here and in his own words won't come till he's ready (and may never be)

[Meat]

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Dominique is right. Judge would be huge if this was 30 years ago but baseball is for old men now. Unless the QB of the giants or jets become mvp candidates, it’s the basketball star in New York. Mad Dog probably blew his load again today after Domo said that.

spida got like 3x judge's followers playing in utah, TV ratings lolololol, what's next how many ravens they received? how many telegrams

[KnicksNext]

I've come around on doing this. Why tf not at this point. When is the next time we'll have a shot at adding a top 25 player in the league who is only 25 years old? F it - let's do it. Give Utah the bag. Ainge is not going to move him if he doesn't love the deal, so we have to give up what it takes to get him. 6 1sts plus all the kids the Jazz want (Ainge wants no part of RJ and his contract). All of them.

At least we'll field a team that's exciting and should be good for many years. Where are we going if we don't do it? With adding only Brunson, we're not going anywhere. We all know that. We'll be stuck in middling hell for the next 5 years.

The Knicks brass don't care about the draft. That's been proven. So, what are we saving all these picks for if we have no interest in using them?

Grimes, Obi, IQ and 6 1sts. Lets do it.

its called draft picks?

Which this front office cares nothing about? That's reality. Who did we draft at #11?

[god shammgod]

Yes, because drafting stars is so easy

The one player we tanked for you won't stop sh*tting on, so lets do that for 10 years straight, while simultaneously only playing the young guys, but never actually hoping they get better so they don't disrupt the tank

somehow picks 1,2 & probably 4 in that draft figured it out. maybe, try again then a few more times.

but fine, they didn't. so don't mess this up. figure out how to get it done

and i'll take your non answer as a confirmation. thank you.

The only thing I can confirm is that I'm not as hopeless inside as a fan

What is the point of living if you never feel alive shamm?

how dare you

but hey look, i just hope this trade goes through for you. otherwise there might be a new assistant to the assistant video coordinator

[HEZI]

This is it...the rebuilding through the draft window is over...they doubled down on going this route by signing brunson who makes it even less likely we can get into the top 10 to get a difference maker.

Get Mitchell and then maybe you are a player down the road for a FA if you prove you are one piece away.

Bronson is a good player but that signing really shocked me also. RJ Mitchell duel looks better than Bronson RJ. Not sure Bronson RJ Mitchell is a road I'd go down. Think your front office said they aren't trading for Mitchell when they signed Bronson. Danny has to be looking at other teams now if he's thinking about doing a full rebuild? Front office you have now, I'd fire.

people seem to think time stands still after this deal, like rj, randle, mitchell, brunson all suddenly become untradeable and that no future improvements can be made

They can be made but it’s going to be tough. Given the contracts of those guys our options will be limited and we won’t have any assets to include for upgrades because they will be gone in the Mitchell deal. We should have kept our flexibility with cap space, it would have made this deal a lot easier to make and still be in position to add better fitting pieces. Now it’s a tough challenge

[nedleeds]

Good that we walked away. Don't let Ainge get everything. He needs us. He can move his demands down. If we rejoin the talks and make the move.

First off: I still think Mitch is a bad fit and we'll have a hard time building a contender around him because we'll:

1. Be capped out
2. With few movable assets
3. And by that same token have limited shots in the draft

So the three ways of building a team - draft, trade, and free agency will be limited. It will limit us to exceptions signings, a pick every other year, and lateral moves - player for player roughly - to improve fit. With some creative moves around the fringes we can start to restock the asset pool for sweeteners in trades or potential draft steals.



That said, one difference between now and the Melo trade is that we're relatively asset rich now. We've got a number of players on the upside of their career and a large cadre of picks to move. Internal development could still be possible after this trade and we'll only have a few positions to fill. Brass needs to figure out what capital we'll need remaining to build the team out to make sure those distant picks - and there will be those - don't bite us in the ass the way they did the Nets. Don't immediately make the next trade. Restock the pool with late firsts and decent 2nds as possible and climb the ladder again. Maybe somebody wants McBride or Sims. Those kind of pieces can go for future capital.

Donnie Walsh has set us up well too before impatience squandered it all

No amount of patience would've turned Stoudemire, Gallinari, Chandler, Fields and Mozgov into a good team.

Those who actually stayed in the league spent more time in the infirmary, and never played at an All-Star level post-injury.

If not for the Melo deal, we would've ended up with Deron Williams. Read the stories. It would've been a disaster here.

The Melo deal was fine. Essentially we chose to keep Stat instead of letting Billups expire (and possibly re-sign him, he was actually a good rotation player still). Here's how bad it was, he ended up signing for $4 with the Clippers. He would have made $12 million in his amnesty year -- only 1 left -- which is a hideous use of a 1 time amnesty. This was done under the cover of signing Tyson Chandler. Stretching Stat would have netted $18.2 instead of 12 from Billups and Billups would have come off the books regardless after that 2011 season. All this leads to the 2013 what if with Chris Paul which is not worth wasting the internet on. But we continue to go through the same agony with a go nowhere front office that can never stick with a 4 or 5 year plan. The moment they sniff the 10th seed they jizz on themselves and ruin any hope of a title contender.

[robillionaire]

It turned out fine because of how good he became.

Odds are extremely slim that any of our young guys will be as good as Jaylen Brown

It didn’t turn out fine because they didn’t win a championship. Last year was a fluke season for them and they lost. That’s the logic we would apply to our team so why not apply it to Boston? They aren’t that good and they aren’t winning a championship it’s a treadmill team and they should blow it up to tank

You’re comparing us to a team that made the ECF finals 4 out of 5 years was just up 2-1 in the finals up 9 with 5 minutes to go and was a Curry legendary performance away from going up 3-1 and saying they are a treadmill team ? Lol you can’t be serious.

Tatum and Brown aren’t even in their primes yet there is an excellent chance they win a title or two eventually

Nobody cares about “appearances” they simply are not good enough to win. Fourni3r smoked them twice. Unimpressed.

[Spree2Houston]

Brian Windhorst is the mouthpiece for Danny Ainge
Adrian Wojnarowski is the mouthpiece for Leon Rose

[Deeeez Knicks]

The Knicks did rebuild through the draft. That's why we're in position to make this trade.

It was more of a win immediately plan with a lot in mediocre veteran players or free agents. They only bottomed out for 1 year which wasn’t enough. They did do a better job of drafting and getting some future picks, but the purpose was to make a move for a star.

I'm going to ask for a straight yes or no: Are the Knicks in position today to trade for a star because of the draft?

God knows I wish IQ, Obi and Grimes played more and Randle, Burks and Fournier played less, but it is a bit overblown that the Knicks don't care about their kids or value the draft.

Thibs doesn't care about the kids, and that is its own issue, but this FO has built a young core that everyone wants to see more of and a warchest of picks.

Even if the preference for some is to run this franchise like the Thunder, the Knicks used the draft in prominent, but strategically different way.

They are in position for a star, and that is a good thing. But i would not call trading picks and young players building thru the draft. Not to compare straight, but they used draft picks or drafted players in the past to trade for players (McDyess, Curry, Marbury, Melo, Steve Francis, Bargs, etc) and that def wasn’t building thru the draft. It can still work out, just something different.

I will give them credit though for doing more in the draft. And Mitch and RJ might stick around for awhile. It’s a different plan though to mindfully bottom out, get a bunch of picks, and be more youth forward then trying to compete with vets and set up to trade for a star.

But hopefully this plan works out. There are multiple ways to build that can work