Trade Ideas

[toooskies]

Mitchell has averaged 7.7 3papg game over the course of his career. About one in three shots are beyond the arc.

I struggle with the idea that Sexton played the way he did because that's what he was asked to do, by several coaching staffs, over a three year period, while we were winning 20 games a season.

IMO, Collin is already hanging with Mitchell in terms of 3pt% and TS%, but Mitchell is shooting nearly twice as many 3's.

To add to these, Sexton is not normally a movement shooter or self-generating his own threes. There are examples of him shooting off the dribble, but these efforts have been inefficient (32.2% off 3s with more than one dribble last 3 years) and sparse (31.4% of his 3PAs last 3 years) whereas Mitchell shot above league average efficiency (36.7% off 3s with more than one dribble last 3 years) and with more volume (49.5% of his 3PAs last 3 years). Collin's 3P% would be inflated by these tendencies with less stress on the defense off of his movement laterally.

But either way, I wouldn't trade for Mitchell because the fit would be bad... not because he is a bad player. There are always options for facilitating these trades to grab assets (one RJ Barrett, please).

I thought about Barrett but he's not a particularly good shooter. His TS% was identical to LeVert's. He shoots 35% or lower anywhere outside of 3 feet from the hoop. Not what I want out of a scorer.

[jbk1234]

Mitchell has averaged 7.7 3papg game over the course of his career. About one in three shots are beyond the arc.

I struggle with the idea that Sexton played the way he did because that's what he was asked to do, by several coaching staffs, over a three year period, while we were winning 20 games a season.

IMO, Collin is already hanging with Mitchell in terms of 3pt% and TS%, but Mitchell is shooting nearly twice as many 3's.

To add to these, Sexton is not normally a movement shooter or self-generating his own threes. There are examples of him shooting off the dribble, but these efforts have been inefficient (32.2% off 3s with more than one dribble last 3 years) and sparse (31.4% of his 3PAs last 3 years) whereas Mitchell shot above league average efficiency (36.7% off 3s with more than one dribble last 3 years) and with more volume (49.5% of his 3PAs last 3 years). Collin's 3P% would be inflated by these tendencies with less stress on the defense off of his movement laterally.

But either way, I wouldn't trade for Mitchell because the fit would be bad... not because he is a bad player. There are always options for facilitating these trades to grab assets (one RJ Barrett, please).

I thought about Barrett but he's not a particularly good shooter. His TS% was identical to LeVert's. He shoots 35% or lower anywhere outside of 3 feet from the hoop. Not what I want out of a scorer.

The way I see it is we can always sign Barnes, Wiggins, CTJ, or trade for Hayward as an expiring next summer. Brown and O.G. might be free agents the following summer. But I'd like to see Mobley and Agbaji develop this season.

[ijspeelman]

Mitchell has averaged 7.7 3papg game over the course of his career. About one in three shots are beyond the arc.

I struggle with the idea that Sexton played the way he did because that's what he was asked to do, by several coaching staffs, over a three year period, while we were winning 20 games a season.

IMO, Collin is already hanging with Mitchell in terms of 3pt% and TS%, but Mitchell is shooting nearly twice as many 3's.

To add to these, Sexton is not normally a movement shooter or self-generating his own threes. There are examples of him shooting off the dribble, but these efforts have been inefficient (32.2% off 3s with more than one dribble last 3 years) and sparse (31.4% of his 3PAs last 3 years) whereas Mitchell shot above league average efficiency (36.7% off 3s with more than one dribble last 3 years) and with more volume (49.5% of his 3PAs last 3 years). Collin's 3P% would be inflated by these tendencies with less stress on the defense off of his movement laterally.

But either way, I wouldn't trade for Mitchell because the fit would be bad... not because he is a bad player. There are always options for facilitating these trades to grab assets (one RJ Barrett, please).

I thought about Barrett but he's not a particularly good shooter. His TS% was identical to LeVert's. He shoots 35% or lower anywhere outside of 3 feet from the hoop. Not what I want out of a scorer.

My imagination for someone like him is a Wigginsy role. We would definitely have to give up too much for someone who wouldn’t be our number 1 or possibly number 2 on offense, but he fits the LeVert mold I think we need: a combo of creation (primary and secondary) and scoring plus very good defense.

Edit: “very good defense as compared to LeVert’s average to mediocre defense”

[jbk1234]

To add to these, Sexton is not normally a movement shooter or self-generating his own threes. There are examples of him shooting off the dribble, but these efforts have been inefficient (32.2% off 3s with more than one dribble last 3 years) and sparse (31.4% of his 3PAs last 3 years) whereas Mitchell shot above league average efficiency (36.7% off 3s with more than one dribble last 3 years) and with more volume (49.5% of his 3PAs last 3 years). Collin's 3P% would be inflated by these tendencies with less stress on the defense off of his movement laterally.

But either way, I wouldn't trade for Mitchell because the fit would be bad... not because he is a bad player. There are always options for facilitating these trades to grab assets (one RJ Barrett, please).

I thought about Barrett but he's not a particularly good shooter. His TS% was identical to LeVert's. He shoots 35% or lower anywhere outside of 3 feet from the hoop. Not what I want out of a scorer.

My imagination for someone like him is a Wigginsy role. We would definitely have to give up too much for someone who wouldn’t be our number 1 or possibly number 2 on offense, but he fits the LeVert mold I think we need: a combo of creation (primary and secondary) and scoring plus very good defense.

RJ Barrett may develop into a fine player, but right now I'd be hard pressed to tell what specific skill set he's good at. He shoots a lot but he's not particularly efficient. He's not a good defender.

[ijspeelman]

I thought about Barrett but he's not a particularly good shooter. His TS% was identical to LeVert's. He shoots 35% or lower anywhere outside of 3 feet from the hoop. Not what I want out of a scorer.

My imagination for someone like him is a Wigginsy role. We would definitely have to give up too much for someone who wouldn’t be our number 1 or possibly number 2 on offense, but he fits the LeVert mold I think we need: a combo of creation (primary and secondary) and scoring plus very good defense.

RJ Barrett may develop into a fine player, but right now I'd be hard pressed to tell what specific skill set he's good at. He shoots a lot but he's not particularly efficient. He's not a good defender.

I was under the impression he was a good defender, but will admit I barely watched the Knicks last year.

[JujitsuFlip]

RJ is a good ISO defender by the stats but as an overall defender, is a negative.

[KuruptedCav]

Not a big fan of RJ on this team. I get the allure of a sustained run with the players all being on the same timeline.

It just rarely works. Like we saw the Duncan, Manu, Tony work, but that had to kick off with Robinson. With Curry, Thompson and Green, David Lee, Andrew Bogut and Andre Iguodala were important as heck.

I think there is a risk of being the Thunder if you don’t have those vets. Kind of seeing this in post-Leonard Toronto, but at least they’ve got some burn.

So if Love is walking, I’d rather go after a Wiggins or Hayward to pair with Rubio as the stabilizing veteran. Allen, Mobley, Garland, Okoro, Agbaji, Markannen, is so young.

And I don’t think Barrett is the guy you try that for… same reason I don’t pencil Sexton into the equation.


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[Revenged25]

Not a big fan of RJ on this team. I get the allure of a sustained run with the players all being on the same timeline.

It just rarely works. Like we saw the Duncan, Manu, Tony work, but that had to kick off with Robinson. With Curry, Thompson and Green, David Lee, Andrew Bogut and Andre Iguodala were important as heck.

I think there is a risk of being the Thunder if you don’t have those vets. Kind of seeing this in post-Leonard Toronto, but at least they’ve got some burn.

So if Love is walking, I’d rather go after a Wiggins or Hayward to pair with Rubio as the stabilizing veteran. Allen, Mobley, Garland, Okoro, Agbaji, Markannen, is so young.

And I don’t think Barrett is the guy you try that for… same reason I don’t pencil Sexton into the equation.


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I think RJ would be fine on this team only because he would just be replacing a different young player, not exactly filling the role of a vet. The issue though is that he's about to want to get paid and he's not going to get that type of money he'd want in Cleveland. Already having that issue with Sexton and I'd argue Sexton is closer to what the Cavs need in being a walking bucket than RJ is. Honestly with how young the Cavs are, paying Sexton 2+1/60 right now would be the smartest play. He'd get paid starter money so he'll be happy with the pay, he wants to win so I could see him willing to come off the bench since he's getting paid like a starter and would probably still be getting starter minutes especially if they can show how it would help the team improve, and even if he decided to opt into the 3rd year, he'd be ready to fall off by the time for a Mobley extension kicks in. Until then none of the other young players on the roster are going to be needing a large contract so unless there is a definitive star wanting to come to Cleveland the cap space won't be missing either and at worst Sexton would only be slightly overpaid and could easily be moved.

In those 3 years Ochai might actually develop from Danny Green into more of a Jaylen Brown which would be the ideal player the Cavs are missing and honestly whether it's from the 2 or the 3, the Cavs just need someone other than Garland that can get/create buckets on their own so we'd not even need to replace Lauri as long as someone can score/set up scoring besides Garland.

[mcfly1204]

Can we buy low on someone like Cam Reddish?

[KuruptedCav]

Not a big fan of RJ on this team. I get the allure of a sustained run with the players all being on the same timeline.

It just rarely works. Like we saw the Duncan, Manu, Tony work, but that had to kick off with Robinson. With Curry, Thompson and Green, David Lee, Andrew Bogut and Andre Iguodala were important as heck.

I think there is a risk of being the Thunder if you don’t have those vets. Kind of seeing this in post-Leonard Toronto, but at least they’ve got some burn.

So if Love is walking, I’d rather go after a Wiggins or Hayward to pair with Rubio as the stabilizing veteran. Allen, Mobley, Garland, Okoro, Agbaji, Markannen, is so young.

And I don’t think Barrett is the guy you try that for… same reason I don’t pencil Sexton into the equation.


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I think RJ would be fine on this team only because he would just be replacing a different young player, not exactly filling the role of a vet. The issue though is that he's about to want to get paid and he's not going to get that type of money he'd want in Cleveland. Already having that issue with Sexton and I'd argue Sexton is closer to what the Cavs need in being a walking bucket than RJ is. Honestly with how young the Cavs are, paying Sexton 2+1/60 right now would be the smartest play. He'd get paid starter money so he'll be happy with the pay, he wants to win so I could see him willing to come off the bench since he's getting paid like a starter and would probably still be getting starter minutes especially if they can show how it would help the team improve, and even if he decided to opt into the 3rd year, he'd be ready to fall off by the time for a Mobley extension kicks in. Until then none of the other young players on the roster are going to be needing a large contract so unless there is a definitive star wanting to come to Cleveland the cap space won't be missing either and at worst Sexton would only be slightly overpaid and could easily be moved.

In those 3 years Ochai might actually develop from Danny Green into more of a Jaylen Brown which would be the ideal player the Cavs are missing and honestly whether it's from the 2 or the 3, the Cavs just need someone other than Garland that can get/create buckets on their own so we'd not even need to replace Lauri as long as someone can score/set up scoring besides Garland.

Lot of optimism there. I have no problem swapping Sexton for Barrett, I just don’t think either moves the needle and, both want to be paid like they do, and the Knicks seems to want more than that for him. My concern is that the extension of either of them means Love is walking, and that’s the experience I don’t want to lose. Caris LeVert isn’t that guy either. Rubio is nice.

Sexton on a 2+1 doesn’t bother me because I don’t see 1 yr and $20 million as prohibitively expensive to move if a deal can be made for a better fitting player.

I agree on the second facilitator. Not that many players who can facilitate, on the wing, shoot the three, and dribble without pounding the ball into the ground all the time. If someone could teach LeVert/Sexton court vision and discretion, but no coach has been able to do so…


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[jbk1234]

Unless it's a no-brainer, or if Sexton really wants out, I think the Cavs should sit tight and play at least a half a season. Continuity, of which the Cavs have had very little over the last 4 years, is underrated. This is not a veteran team that has plateaued, and while I'm not optimistic about a guy like LeVert, he probably deserves a larger sample size than what he got last year. Other teams will underperform expectations and adjust their plans. Today's available deals may not be tomorrow's.

But no, I don't think the Cavs should pay Sexton $5-8M per over market due to vibes, or feels, or whatever, and I don't think that's a thing that's going to happen either. Fans suffer from a lack of imagination as far as Sexton not liking his role after signing a $20M per deal, what that could do both internally. and what that could do to his already anemic trade market.

[KuruptedCav]

Can we buy low on someone like Cam Reddish?

I think it’s a tough pill for the Knicks after giving up a FRP for him. I personally don’t think he has positive value and worry that the opportunity cost of adding him outweighs his production.

Like Cedi + 2nd Rd Pick + Cash for Reddish opens up minutes and saves some cap. I’d be okay with that, but doubt the Knicks find that face saving. It’s low risk for them to hold him until RFA and give it a 2nd year. Though I doubt that works well for them/him with Thibs.


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[mcfly1204]

By no means am I saying Sexton will get to the same level as any of these players, but when you look at players 22 or younger who scored 25ppg or more for a seaon (which Sexton was just shy of), you have:

Zion Williamson
Luka Doncic
Kevin Durant
LeBron James
Trae Young
Karl-Anthony Towns
Carmelo Anthony
Tracy McGrady
Shaquille O'Neal
Michael Jordan
Rick Barry
Ja Morant
Jayson Tatum
Devin Booker
Derrick Rose
Amar'e Stoudemire

[Revenged25]

I don't think a Sexton or LeVert extension has any play on what happens to Love. Either he reproduces what he did last year and is willing to accept a contract with the Cavs that match what that means, or he looks to find more money elsewhere. The Cavs already rewarded his service once with him barely playing. He's likely going to get the full MLE so about 10 mil or so, maxing out at about 13 mil. He can either take that with the Cavs or look to take it elsewhere. No one is going to be opening up their checkbooks to write him a fat contract unless he puts up better numbers on similar minutes to last year.

[Revenged25]

By no means am I saying Sexton will get to the same level as any of these players, but when you look at players 22 or younger who scored 25ppg or more for a seaon (which Sexton was just shy of), you have:

Zion Williamson
Luka Doncic
Kevin Durant
LeBron James
Trae Young
Karl-Anthony Towns
Carmelo Anthony
Tracy McGrady
Shaquille O'Neal
Michael Jordan
Rick Barry
Ja Morant
Jayson Tatum
Devin Booker
Derrick Rose
Amar'e Stoudemire

Even changing it to 24 ppg which is what he did score, I'm pretty sure you won't add more than a few names and none of them will be scrubs. The closest off the top of my head would be Wiggins who scored 23.6 pgg but had a .534 TS% which showed he was the definition of an inefficient volume scorer.

[jbk1234]

I don't like the word impossible, but it is very, very, very unlike that either Sexton, or LeVert ever get the same number of FGAs or usage they got in their career years on this roster going forward. Their are too many mouths to feed, and their games are too flawed in other aspects, for that to be the case. There's a role for either one of them, but if that's not the role they see for themselves going forward, the Cavs do themselves no favors by trying to force those square pegs into round holes.

[mcfly1204]

I don't like the word impossible, but it is very, very, very unlike that either Sexton, or LeVert ever get the same number of FGAs or usage they got in their career years on this roster going forward. Their are too many mouths to feed, and their games are too flawed in other aspects, for that to be the case. There's a role for either one of them, but if that's not the role they see for themselves going forward, the Cavs do themselves no favors by trying to force those square pegs into round holes.

I don't think you'll get many\any arguments on that here. I am hoping one, both?, can provide 15-18ppg on decent percentages.

[jbk1234]

I don't like the word impossible, but it is very, very, very unlike that either Sexton, or LeVert ever get the same number of FGAs or usage they got in their career years on this roster going forward. Their are too many mouths to feed, and their games are too flawed in other aspects, for that to be the case. There's a role for either one of them, but if that's not the role they see for themselves going forward, the Cavs do themselves no favors by trying to force those square pegs into round holes.

I don't think you'll get many\any arguments on that here. I am hoping one, both?, can provide 15-18ppg on decent percentages.

Absent a serious, read half a season, injury to a key player, I think Sexton tops out at 16ppg and that feels generous. Almost all of the other guys on that list had a multitude of skills, in which they were at least better than replacement level, aside from scoring. Generally speaking, their teams performed better with them in those lead roles, on that usage, and playing all those minutes. Even Zion (rebounding) and Booker (spacing) help their teams beyond just getting the ball in the basket. There were, and are, real tradeoffs that come from leaving Sexton on the floor for that many minutes and having his usage be that high.

We're no longer in a position to leave him out there for extended run on those nights when he doesn't have it and he's a net negative out there. We're trying to win. The opportunity costs associated with bad Sexton are higher now.

I'll be honest, I see almost no hope for LeVert. His defense in the play-in games and Sexton's current status are the only reasons I wouldn't be quietly shopping him for a different expiring contract.

[KuruptedCav]

I don't think a Sexton or LeVert extension has any play on what happens to Love. Either he reproduces what he did last year and is willing to accept a contract with the Cavs that match what that means, or he looks to find more money elsewhere. The Cavs already rewarded his service once with him barely playing. He's likely going to get the full MLE so about 10 mil or so, maxing out at about 13 mil. He can either take that with the Cavs or look to take it elsewhere. No one is going to be opening up their checkbooks to write him a fat contract unless he puts up better numbers on similar minutes to last year.

Not about the money, it’s about the playing time and role. We’ll get a first hand look at what happens when you have Markannen, LeVert, Sexton, Okoro, Agbaji, Osman, and Windler trying to share 7800 minutes this season.

That compounds if you hand out a contract or two, and someone has to move on.


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[toooskies]

Really strange that the Sexton front is as quiet as it is. Not a peep or rumor out of either side.