People who don't have Jordan as GOAT: What metric(s) would make you change your mind?

[70sFan]

Because it is a laughably framed question. Kyrie and Love are not guaranteed hall of fame (Davis probably is because NCAA success matters too), and you seem to at least acknowledge Love’s case is weak. So not multiple hall-of-famers there. There are multiple hall-of-famers on the 2020 Lakers… if you include old Dwight Howard playing twenty minutes a game in the postseason. Contrast that with the 1996-98 Bulls, who had Pippen and Rodman and Kukoc as their next three key guys.

Multiple all-stars? Only if you include other seasons (Lebron was the only all-star in 2016), but in that case Horace Grant suddenly qualifies.

And of course all of this is before getting into Jordan’s hall of fame coach and front office.

The Russell attack is somehow even less genuine, and not even the most fervent Jordan stan seriously believes guys like Satch Sanders and Tom Heinsohn and K.C. Jones are better pieces than Horace Grant (without getting into the what-should-be-obvious logic that a concentrated league is probably going to see concentrated talent on literally every team…).

I dunno man. Comparing Horace Grant to Tommy Heinsohn and Kevin Love might be where I draw the line.

Is this another evidence of complete ignoration of one side of the court here?

[Stalwart]

Because it is a laughably framed question. Kyrie and Love are not guaranteed hall of fame (Davis probably is because NCAA success matters too), and you seem to at least acknowledge Love’s case is weak. So not multiple hall-of-famers there. There are multiple hall-of-famers on the 2020 Lakers… if you include old Dwight Howard playing twenty minutes a game in the postseason. Contrast that with the 1996-98 Bulls, who had Pippen and Rodman and Kukoc as their next three key guys.

Multiple all-stars? Only if you include other seasons (Lebron was the only all-star in 2016), but in that case Horace Grant suddenly qualifies.

And of course all of this is before getting into Jordan’s hall of fame coach and front office.

The Russell attack is somehow even less genuine, and not even the most fervent Jordan stan seriously believes guys like Satch Sanders and Tom Heinsohn and K.C. Jones are better pieces than Horace Grant (without getting into the what-should-be-obvious logic that a concentrated league is probably going to see concentrated talent on literally every team…).

I dunno man. Comparing Horace Grant to Tommy Heinsohn and Kevin Love might be where I draw the line.

Is this another evidence of complete ignoration of one side of the court here?

No. This is you pretending Horace Grant was some defensive force or something rather than the role player with good defense that he was.

[70sFan]

I dunno man. Comparing Horace Grant to Tommy Heinsohn and Kevin Love might be where I draw the line.

Is this another evidence of complete ignoration of one side of the court here?

No. This is you pretending Horace Grant was some defensive force or something rather than the role player with good defense that he was.

Grant was one of the best defenders at his position and extremely efficient offensive player within his role. In many situations, I'd take him over Cavs Love.

You are pretending that Kevin Love was some kind of offensive force, when he was just an all-star level player.

[Texas Chuck]

Is this another evidence of complete ignoration of one side of the court here?

No. This is you pretending Horace Grant was some defensive force or something rather than the role player with good defense that he was.

Grant was one of the best defenders at his position and extremely efficient offensive player within his role. In many situations, I'd take him over Cavs Love.

There is zero question as a 3rd best player on a contender you would always rather have Grant. Especially with a Jordan or Lebron in place.

But none of this matters here because there is another reason this poster NEEDS Mike to be GOAT.

[Ron Swanson]

Horace Grant was a legitimate All-Defense caliber PF while providing efficient 3rd-4th option offense, but Kevin Love was a legitimate All-NBA PF and put-up a Top-10 PF peak season of the 2010's literally right before he got traded to Cleveland. Both of you guys are being hyperbolic to prop-up agendas here IMO.

[70sFan]

Horace Grant was a legitimate All-Defense caliber PF while providing efficient 3rd-4th option offense, but Kevin Love was a legitimate All-NBA PF and put-up a Top-10 PF peak season of the 2010's literally right before he got traded to Cleveland. Both of you guys are being hyperbolic to prop-up agendas here IMO.

Well, that's why I said over Cavs Love and in some situations, not all. I think Love wasn't the same player after 2014 when he lost mass. He was still a very good offensive third option who provided excellent spacing and shooting, but his defense was never strong and he couldn't create from the post anymore. I think peak Grant was a better player than this version of Love.

[Ron Swanson]

Horace Grant was a legitimate All-Defense caliber PF while providing efficient 3rd-4th option offense, but Kevin Love was a legitimate All-NBA PF and put-up a Top-10 PF peak season of the 2010's literally right before he got traded to Cleveland. Both of you guys are being hyperbolic to prop-up agendas here IMO.

Well, that's why I said over Cavs Love and in some situations, not all. I think Love wasn't the same player after 2014 when he lost mass. He was still a very good offensive third option who provided excellent spacing and shooting, but his defense was never strong and he couldn't create from the post anymore. I think peak Grant was a better player than this version of Love.

This always seems like a very convenient pro-Lebron narrative. Not accusing you of that per say, but I don't see the evidence that Love suddenly dropped off the second he became a Cav, as much as playing with Lebron forced him into a less optimized role. He slimmed down precisely because they wanted him to be a glorified floor-spacer, and in playing further away from the basket, mitigated two of his greatest strengths, re: offensive rebounding & his play-making ability out of the high post. It's one of the reasons I'm not nearly as high on pre-2018 Lebron as an overall floor general. I don't think he really understood how to maximize his front court teammates (Bosh included) until a player like Davis' caliber came to LA and he happily accepted a more facilitating role.

[70sFan]

Horace Grant was a legitimate All-Defense caliber PF while providing efficient 3rd-4th option offense, but Kevin Love was a legitimate All-NBA PF and put-up a Top-10 PF peak season of the 2010's literally right before he got traded to Cleveland. Both of you guys are being hyperbolic to prop-up agendas here IMO.

Well, that's why I said over Cavs Love and in some situations, not all. I think Love wasn't the same player after 2014 when he lost mass. He was still a very good offensive third option who provided excellent spacing and shooting, but his defense was never strong and he couldn't create from the post anymore. I think peak Grant was a better player than this version of Love.

This always seems like a very convenient pro-Lebron narrative. Not accusing you of that per say, but I don't see the evidence that Love suddenly dropped off the second he became a Cav, as much as playing with Lebron forced him into a less optimized role. He slimmed down precisely because they wanted him to be a glorified floor-spacer, and in playing further away from the basket, mitigated his greatest strengths, re: offensive rebounding & his play-making ability out of the high post. It's one of the reasons I'm not nearly as high on pre-2018 Lebron as an overall floor general. I don't think he really understood how to maximize his front court teammates (Bosh included) until a player like Davis' caliber came to LA and he happily accepted a more facilitating role.

Well, I'm not LeBron advocate here and I don't know the exact reasons why Love played worse after the trade. I think it's plasuable to say that he was forced to play less optimized role for his production (though it's probably still optimized for team results).

I don't play any role in James vs Jordan discussion here, I just don't agree that Jordan played next to scrubs compared to other GOAT candidates. I picked Love, because Stalwart mentioned him and Heinsohn. I know he has no idea about Tom's game, so I picked Love to talk about.

[Stalwart]

Is this another evidence of complete ignoration of one side of the court here?

No. This is you pretending Horace Grant was some defensive force or something rather than the role player with good defense that he was.

Grant was one of the best defenders at his position and extremely efficient offensive player within his role. In many situations, I'd take him over Cavs Love.

You are pretending that Kevin Love was some kind of offensive force, when he was just an all-star level player.

Yeah I don't think you're being honest. Not sure what else to say.

[70sFan]

No. This is you pretending Horace Grant was some defensive force or something rather than the role player with good defense that he was.

Grant was one of the best defenders at his position and extremely efficient offensive player within his role. In many situations, I'd take him over Cavs Love.

You are pretending that Kevin Love was some kind of offensive force, when he was just an all-star level player.

Yeah I don't think you're being honest. Not sure what else to say.

Don't worry, I am always honest here.

[Cavsfansince84]

Horace Grant was a legitimate All-Defense caliber PF while providing efficient 3rd-4th option offense, but Kevin Love was a legitimate All-NBA PF and put-up a Top-10 PF peak season of the 2010's literally right before he got traded to Cleveland. Both of you guys are being hyperbolic to prop-up agendas here IMO.

Well, that's why I said over Cavs Love and in some situations, not all. I think Love wasn't the same player after 2014 when he lost mass. He was still a very good offensive third option who provided excellent spacing and shooting, but his defense was never strong and he couldn't create from the post anymore. I think peak Grant was a better player than this version of Love.

This always seems like a very convenient pro-Lebron narrative. Not accusing you of that per say, but I don't see the evidence that Love suddenly dropped off the second he became a Cav, as much as playing with Lebron forced him into a less optimized role. He slimmed down precisely because they wanted him to be a glorified floor-spacer, and in playing further away from the basket, mitigated two of his greatest strengths, re: offensive rebounding & his play-making ability out of the high post. It's one of the reasons I'm not nearly as high on pre-2018 Lebron as an overall floor general. I don't think he really understood how to maximize his front court teammates (Bosh included) until a player like Davis' caliber came to LA and he happily accepted a more facilitating role.

I think part of what it was with Love(as well as Bosh to some degree) is its very hard for a player who spent years as a #1 option/franchise type player to suddenly embrace being a #2 or #3 role(in their cases it was a clear #3). Most players who are great at being a #3 grow into that role and not the other way around. Be it Worthy or Manu/Parker or whoever. So they don't feel like they are being held back or going backwards by taking it on. In the case of Love, I don't think he mentally fully adjusted until after LeBron left and I think this is part of if you recall he had real mental issues that developed in those years. I don't see it as being LeBron's fault per se. It's just hard for a guy in his prime to willingly embrace it. At least with Bosh though he focused more on defense. Love tried to focus on becoming a great 3 pt shooter but it was inconsistent.

[Mazter]

With Jordan I have pretty much them idea that it all had to come together perfectly for him to succeed. Krause, Pippen, Grant, Phil, the triangle, Kukoc, Harper, Rodman. And (t)he(y) pretty much did the same trick 6x over again. Sure, he might have played the bigger role, especially on offense, but without any of the other pieces I am not so sure they would have won much or anything at all.

How many guys would win titles if one of their 2-3 best players go down?

It's not about injuries, more about trades, picks, firing and signing

About the whole back and forth about Jordan and Pippen, there is much more to the whole Bulls turnaround. A chronological list of events that in my opinion lead to 6 championships, starting with the drafting of Jordan:

1984 GM Thorn drafts Jordan
1985 Reinsdorf buys part ownership into the Bulls
1985 After 2 months Reinsdorf fires Thorn and hires Krause as a new GM
1985 Krause hires Tex Winter as assistant to teach Jordan and the team the triangle offense
1985 Krause signs Paxson as a free agent
1986 Krause trades Jawan Oldhamm to the loosing Knicks' for their 1987 first round pick, with which Polynice was later acquired
1987 Krause uses every trick in the book to trade the 8th pick Polynice for the fifth pick Pippen on draft day, and athletic wing which he believes can complement Jordan
1987 Horace Grant is drafted during the same draft with the 10th pick
1987 Phil Jackson is hired as assistant
1988 Krause trades Jordan's friend PF Oakley to the Knicks for center Cartwright, moving Grant to the starting PF spot
1989 Reacquired the draft pick which was lost in the Pippen trade for Brad Sellers and drafted BJ Armstrong
1989 Despite winning 50+ games and making the Conference Finals Collins is fired because he did not fully implement the triangle
1989 Phil Jackson is promoted to head coach and inmediately implements the triangle
1990 Krause drafts Toni Kukoc, who stays in Europe for 3 more seasons
1990 Pippen blossoms into an All Star, then an All Defensive and eventually also an All NBA
1990 The Bulls start 0-3 and after a win Jordan finally gives in to the triangle offense, the Bulls go 76-20 in the remaining games
1993 Horace Grant finally gets recognition and becomes an All Defensive making Bulls the only team
The core of Reinsdorf-Krause-Phil-Tex-Jordan-Pippen-Grant-Armstrong-Cartwright-Paxson goes on and wins 3 straight titles
1993 Jordan retires the first time
1993 Krause signs Steve Kerr as a free agent
1993 Kukoc is brought in from Europe
1994 Krause traded a 2 round pick for Luc Longley
1994 Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong both become All Stars, Horace Grant gets his 2nd All Defensive selection
1994 Despite losing Jordan the Bulls win 55 games and eventually loose in the second round in 7 games against the Eastern Conference Champions the Knicks
1994 Krause signs Ron Harper as a free agent
1994 The Bulls lose Horace Grant as a free agent
1995 The Bulls struggle without their 2x All Defensive power forward and start the season 34-31
1995 Jordan makes a comeback and despite a 13-4 spark the Bulls eventually lose again in the 2nd round in 6 games against the Magic, with Horace Grant averaging a career high of 18 ppg against his former team
1995 Krause trades Perdue for DPOY Rodman to make up for the loss of Horace Grant, Longley takes the starting center spot
1995 At a diner Phil persuades Rodman to apologize to Jordan and Pippen to soften up the relationship between them
The core of Reinsdorf-Krause-Phil-Tex-Jordan-Pippen-Rodman-Harper-Kukoc-Kerr-Longley wins a second 3-peat for the Bulls
1998 Phil retires inmediately after winning the third title, Pippen already anounced that he won't play another season for the Bulls
1999 Jordan retires a second time during the lockout
1999 Pippen finally signs for the Rockets, Kerr for the Spurs, Longley for the Suns and Rodman retires dismantling the second three peat core

It's up to each what to make of it, but it seems to me that it was a little more than just Jordan going 6-0 in the Finals. I believe that Jordan's career team achievements was more dependable of actions from others. His path was built for him, at times even against his will. The importance of Krause, Phil, Tex, Scottie, Horace and Dennis is underrated and only some on/off and plus/minus stats for the whole team showing that it really was more because of him could change that for me.

[Stalwart]

It's up to each what to make of it, but it seems to me that it was a little more than just Jordan going 6-0 in the Finals. I believe that Jordan's career team achievements was more dependable of actions from others. His path was built for him, at times even against his will. The importance of Krause, Phil, Tex, Scottie, Horace and Dennis is underrated and only some on/off and plus/minus stats for the whole team showing that it really was more because of him could change that for me.

Lol. "His path was built for him" because they brought in Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong? Some of these comments are going from bad takes to straight up lies.

Was Tim Duncan's path laid out for him? What about Magic? Bird? Steph? Russell? Kareem? All of these guys had teams, coaches, and systems built around them. All of these guys had teammates better than Scottie Pippen. You guys will scoff at Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love as superstar teammates but will bring up Ron Harper.

[Texas Chuck]

Horace Grant was a legitimate All-Defense caliber PF while providing efficient 3rd-4th option offense, but Kevin Love was a legitimate All-NBA PF and put-up a Top-10 PF peak season of the 2010's literally right before he got traded to Cleveland. Both of you guys are being hyperbolic to prop-up agendas here IMO.

Ridiculous. Randle just had an all NBA season as a 1st option. Contenders don't want him as a key sidekick. Love had more offensive talent than Grant. Duh. But volume scoring isn't as additive.

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[70sFan]

Was Tim Duncan's path laid out for him? What about Magic? Bird? Steph? Russell? Kareem? All of these guys had teams, coaches, and systems built around them. All of these guys had teammates better than Scottie Pippen. You guys will scoff at Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love as superstar teammates but will bring up Ron Harper.

I don't think Russell ever played with a better player than Pippen. I guess you can argue Pippen vs Hondo or Cousy, but it's far from clear choice. Same with Duncan, old Robinson isn't clear cut better than peak Pippen. McHale vs Pippen is also a close conversation.

[Ron Swanson]

Horace Grant was a legitimate All-Defense caliber PF while providing efficient 3rd-4th option offense, but Kevin Love was a legitimate All-NBA PF and put-up a Top-10 PF peak season of the 2010's literally right before he got traded to Cleveland. Both of you guys are being hyperbolic to prop-up agendas here IMO.

Ridiculous. Randle just had an all NBA season as a 1st option. Contenders don't want him as a key sidekick. Love had more offensive talent than Grant. Duh. But volume scoring isn't as additive.

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Not even in the same stratosphere. You know better than this:

Randle: 24/10/6 on 56.7% TS, 19.7 PER, .140 WS/48, +0.3 on/off (on some complete outlier shooting splits of 41% 3PT and 81% FT)
Love: 26/12/4 on 59% TS, 26.9 PER, .245 WS/48, +10.9 on/off

[capfan33]

I've said this before, Love just wasn't a good fit on that Cleveland roster in the sense that having your 3 best players all be offensively oriented is going to create major redundancies, especially in the case of Love and Irving being 90% offense. Love's decline in production had little to do with his abilities or "Lebron-ball", having 3 offensively oriented players is just poor roster construction. Someone like Ibaka would've been vastly better in Love's role even though he's a worse player in a vacuum.

Even in an ideal case like the Warriors in 17, all their production declined a decent amount when KD joined and Klay also basically does nothing but shoot, Love's abilities were more expansive than that.

And in that sense, Grant is inarguably a better 3rd option in his context, (and almost certainly on the Cavs) than Love. But that doesn't necessarily make Grant a better player in isolation.

[Texas Chuck]

Horace Grant was a legitimate All-Defense caliber PF while providing efficient 3rd-4th option offense, but Kevin Love was a legitimate All-NBA PF and put-up a Top-10 PF peak season of the 2010's literally right before he got traded to Cleveland. Both of you guys are being hyperbolic to prop-up agendas here IMO.

Ridiculous. Randle just had an all NBA season as a 1st option. Contenders don't want him as a key sidekick. Love had more offensive talent than Grant. Duh. But volume scoring isn't as additive.

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Not even in the same stratosphere. You know better than this:

Randle: 24/10/6 on 56.7% TS, 19.7 PER, .140 WS/48, +0.3 on/off (on some complete outlier shooting splits of 41% 3PT and 81% FT)
Love: 26/12/4 on 59% TS, 26.9 PER, .245 WS/48, +10.9 on/off

Not arguing they are same exact player, as you know. Am arguing that just stacking up primary options leads to a sum less than the parts. Grant as a 3rd option who is a great defender is going to be more valuable to virtually every contender.

And it's okay to acknowledge Love as a superior talent but Grant more valuable in this context. Have we learned zero from Draymond?

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[Stalwart]

Was Tim Duncan's path laid out for him? What about Magic? Bird? Steph? Russell? Kareem? All of these guys had teams, coaches, and systems built around them. All of these guys had teammates better than Scottie Pippen. You guys will scoff at Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love as superstar teammates but will bring up Ron Harper.

I don't think Russell ever played with a better player than Pippen. I guess you can argue Pippen vs Hondo or Cousy, but it's far from clear choice. Same with Duncan, old Robinson isn't clear cut better than peak Pippen. McHale vs Pippen is also a close conversation.

I think Cousy was clearly a better player relative to era. Havlicek is at no worse equivalent of not better. Sam Jones and Tommy Heinsohn are both comparable. Then you still have guys like Bill Sharman, Frank Ramsey, Bailey Howell who weren't far off from a Scottie Pippen. Russell had about 4 or 5 Scottie Pippens.

Robinson wasn't far off from a young or old Pippen in 99. Kawhi Parker, and Ginobili weren't far off from Pippen either. So yeah, as Im thinking about it both Russell and Duncan had 4 or 5 Scottie Pippen-ish level players for the totality of their primes. But lets all focus on Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong.

[penbeast0]

I think Cousy was clearly a better player relative to era. Havlicek is at no worse equivalent of not better. Sam Jones and Tommy Heinsohn are both comparable. Then you still have guys like Bill Sharman, Frank Ramsey, Bailey Howell who weren't far off from a Scottie Pippen. Russell had about 4 or 5 Scottie Pippens.

Robinson wasn't far off from a young or old Pippen in 99. Kawhi Parker, and Ginobili weren't far off from Pippen either. So yeah, as Im thinking about it both Russell and Duncan had 4 or 5 Scottie Pippen-ish level players for the totality of their primes. But lets all focus on Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong.

I don't think you can make the Cousy argument unless you ignore the postseason where Cousy consistently laid eggs and by the time Russell got there, he had slipped to an inefficient regular season player as well except maybe in Russell's rookie year. Not that Cousy got worse but that shooting efficiency in the NBA was rapidly changing and Cousy wasn't keeping up. Pre-Russell you can make an argument that Cousy was the best or close to the best guard in the NBA but by 58 he was an inefficient postseason negative.