Imagine if Precious/Banton had been a top 10 pick...

[HumbleRen]

So what? Manu was the 2nd best player on the Spurs for maybe three championships.

That worked because they had a top 10 player of all time in Tim Duncan.

We have um .. a barely a top 20 player in the current league in Siakam ?

If we're contending for championships and this is the best option to win said championships then by all means go for it but we're not, we're a 1st round exit team with a low ceiling as presently constructed.

I don't get the logic. My argument is...

• It would make the starters better
• It would make the bench better
• It would be better for Barnes's development
• It would be better for Precious's development

And the counter is...that we're not a championship contender?

1. Yes because the there's no point in bringing Barnes off the bench to gain a couple of more wins if we're not contending.

2. You don't know if it's better for Barnes development or not.

3. Surrounding Barnes with the bench that has no shooters doesn't exactly sound ideal for him.

4. Yes it would be better for Precious but he should learn to be disciplined on offence whether he's starting or coming off the bench. I do think he should be starting but not at the expense of the player we're grooming to be the face of the franchise.

[Johnny Bball]

So what? Manu was the 2nd best player on the Spurs for maybe three championships.

That worked because they had a top 10 player of all time in Tim Duncan.

We have um .. a barely a top 20 player in the current league in Siakam ?

If we're contending for championships and this is the best option to win said championships then by all means go for it but we're not, we're a 1st round exit team with a low ceiling as presently constructed.

I don't get the logic. My argument is...

• It would make the starters better
• It would make the bench better
• It would be better for Barnes's development
• It would be better for Precious's development

And the counter is...that we're not a championship contender?

Ginobli wasnt a great player and 6th man just because a top 20 player in Duncan played on his team.

Not sure I agree with moving anyone's role around right now, just saying. If anything changes on this team its because someone has proved it beyond a doubt with improved play, kind of as it should be. And they probably have to make a trade to do that.

[InfraRedshaw]

Yes it's crazy lol.

Banton has made ton of strides but the jury is still out on him playing legitimate back up PG minutes with us.

Precious while is amazing on defence, is still one of the least efficient centers in nba history.

They're not in the same tier as Barnes and never will be but that's okay.

Not trying to be a jerk, but is this actually true? I feel like my eye test can name much worse offensive centers in NBA history?

The average true shooting percentage for a center is 61%.

Precious before his 3-point explosion, which I don't think was sustainable at all was 46%, almost 20% below the average.

He's among the worst finishers in the league as his position. For some context at how bad he was, he was shooting 55% at the rim, Westbrook was more efficient at the rim than Precious was.

If he was even league average for a center, he'd be a top 10 center right now due to how elite his defence is.

Fair point, I think that can all be true, but we also need to understand that he doesn't really play the role offensively as other more traditional C's, and that probably skews his numbers a little more too (He's 6'8 225 after all)

I do agree his finishing around the rim was super frustrating, and hard to understand how he missed so many bunnies, but I am hopeful that he can figure that out, you'd have to imagine touch around the rim should be one of the easier skills to develop

But to call him historically one of the worst ever? I am not sure that is valid

*edit* i read back in this thread and looks like you been going at it with folks back about this, there is no need to reply brother!

[HumbleRen]

Not trying to be a jerk, but is this actually true? I feel like my eye test can name much worse offensive centers in NBA history?

The average true shooting percentage for a center is 61%.

Precious before his 3-point explosion, which I don't think was sustainable at all was 46%, almost 20% below the average.

He's among the worst finishers in the league as his position. For some context at how bad he was, he was shooting 55% at the rim, Westbrook was more efficient at the rim than Precious was.

If he was even league average for a center, he'd be a top 10 center right now due to how elite his defence is.

Fair point, I think that can all be true, but we also need to understand that he doesn't really play the role offensively as other more traditional C's, and that probably skews his numbers a little more too (He's 6'8 225 after all)

I do agree his finishing around the rim was super frustrating, and hard to understand how he missed so many bunnies, but I am hopeful that he can figure that out, you'd have to imagine touch around the rim should be one of the easier skills to develop

But to call him historically one of the worst ever? I am not sure that is valid

I mean you listed out the reasons why he's up there in inefficient splits.

I love Precious but the guy shot 43% from the floor and under 60% from the FT line. He is the most inefficient 5 in the league if he was starting and by a comfortable lead as well.

He plays like a wing while playing the 5. He's very inefficient as a wing and that gets even more magnified when you're putting up those splits when playing the 5. It's just easy to look past those faults because of how dynamic he is on defence.

I wouldn't be surprised if he emerges as our best defender by the time the season ends.

[OakleyDokely]

There were like 3 different Precious' last year. The one that started the year was very different than the one who finished it.

[HumbleRen]

There were like 3 different Precious' last year. The one that started the year was very different than the one who finished it.

Do you think his shooting from the 3 is sustainable? That's the key IMO.

I'm not sure it is but hopefully it is.

[OakleyDokely]

There were like 3 different Precious' last year. The one that started the year was very different than the one who finished it.

Do you think his shooting from the 3 is sustainable? That's the key IMO.

I'm not sure it is but hopefully it is.

I don't think he will be a 40% 3pt shooter. But I think he can be mid to high 30s on mid volume.

[vini_vidi_vici]

There were like 3 different Precious' last year. The one that started the year was very different than the one who finished it.

Do you think his shooting from the 3 is sustainable? That's the key IMO.

I'm not sure it is but hopefully it is.

I mean sure the 3 is super important, and I think id go with OD that he can probably be a mid 30s 3PT shooter.

Consider this.

Precious was in the 29th percentile in transition finishes (361 of 512 players), 101.7 PP100, thats 2 points worse per 100 possessions than the league worst OKC ORTG. We all know transition is a hyper efficient finish that buoys most guys numbers (and sadly it still buoyed his hah).

He shot 48% from 3. He shot 58.1% from 2. Those are good numbers, so what happened? TOVs.

He was 80th of 512 players in highest TOV% on transition. 31 TOVs on 173 finishes. Thats awful. If he can just clean up the TOVs, most of which are crazy/entertaining/etc.. he can become so much more efficient.

Thats why I think were all high on him, sure hes a roller coaster offensively (high highs, low lows), but you see he has alot of utility even as just a triple threat guy off ball. He might even soak up some USG on his own creation some day. The defense is already there. I just think he can improve in so many areas offensively, beyond just 3s.

[nonameguy]

Imagine Lebron went undrafted. He'd be the best undrafted player ever!

[Jakay]

If they were top ten picks this fanbase would be soooooooo angry with them lol

[LBJKB24MJ23]

pre-all-star game his shooting splits were abysmal: 42/30/58 but after the break he made major strides, improving to 46/39/62 and improving his TS% from .467 to .552, which is basically league average

55.2 is only league average when you consider other positions. Avg TS for centers are much higher. His TS is cratered by his poor FT% AND finishing around the rim.

Precious is more of a wing on offense than a traditional big though. He's an off the dribble player who shoots 3s. These type of guys are going to have much lower efficiency on average than bigs who just shoot layouts, dunks and the occasional wide open 3.

lets be honest, Precious is a SF or PF with the way he plays. he's only listed as a center because of the other player we have.

[OakleyDokely]

55.2 is only league average when you consider other positions. Avg TS for centers are much higher. His TS is cratered by his poor FT% AND finishing around the rim.

Precious is more of a wing on offense than a traditional big though. He's an off the dribble player who shoots 3s. These type of guys are going to have much lower efficiency on average than bigs who just shoot layouts, dunks and the occasional wide open 3.

lets be honest, Precious is a SF or PF with the way he plays. he's only listed as a center because of the other player we have.

He guards primarily C's defensively though, so he's a hybrid type player.

[HumbleRen]

There were like 3 different Precious' last year. The one that started the year was very different than the one who finished it.

Do you think his shooting from the 3 is sustainable? That's the key IMO.

I'm not sure it is but hopefully it is.

I mean sure the 3 is super important, and I think id go with OD that he can probably be a mid 30s 3PT shooter.

Consider this.

Precious was in the 29th percentile in transition finishes (361 of 512 players), 101.7 PP100, thats 2 points worse per 100 possessions than the league worst OKC ORTG. We all know transition is a hyper efficient finish that buoys most guys numbers (and sadly it still buoyed his hah).

He shot 48% from 3. He shot 58.1% from 2. Those are good numbers, so what happened? TOVs.

He was 80th of 512 players in highest TOV% on transition. 31 TOVs on 173 finishes. Thats awful. If he can just clean up the TOVs, most of which are crazy/entertaining/etc.. he can become so much more efficient.

Thats why I think were all high on him, sure hes a roller coaster offensively (high highs, low lows), but you see he has alot of utility even as just a triple threat guy off ball. He might even soak up some USG on his own creation some day. The defense is already there. I just think he can improve in so many areas offensively, beyond just 3s.

Agreed, hovering around that 35-37% from the 3 would be perfect.

Those transition numbers are nuts, but it matches the eye test lol. Dude needs to tighten up on that end, we bleed too many points on transition.

[Wannabe MEP]

A couple advanced stats notes:

Precious had a slightly better net rating than Barnes on the season.

Precious had a better one-year RAPM than Barnes as well. They were basically tied on offense, but Precious had the better defensive RAPM.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Precious is more of a wing on offense than a traditional big though. He's an off the dribble player who shoots 3s. These type of guys are going to have much lower efficiency on average than bigs who just shoot layouts, dunks and the occasional wide open 3.

lets be honest, Precious is a SF or PF with the way he plays. he's only listed as a center because of the other player we have.

He guards primarily C's defensively though, so he's a hybrid type player.

well thats because the other players can't effectively do so overall and there are no true centers on the team either besides Birch

[Wannabe MEP]

He guards primarily C's defensively though, so he's a hybrid type player.

well thats because the other players can't effectively do so overall and there are no true centers on the team either besides Birch

FVV-Trent-Barnes-Siakam-Precious . . . 114.7/101.3/+13.4 in 152 minutes
FVV-Trent-Anunoby-Barnes-Precious . . 109.0/100.6/+8.4 in 158 minutes

Regardless of what you think a "true center" should be, that^ is really good defense.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

He guards primarily C's defensively though, so he's a hybrid type player.

well thats because the other players can't effectively do so overall and there are no true centers on the team either besides Birch

FVV-Trent-Barnes-Siakam-Precious . . . 114.7/101.3/+13.4 in 152 minutes
FVV-Trent-Anunoby-Barnes-Precious . . 109.0/100.6/+8.4 in 158 minutes

Regardless of what you think a "true center" should be, that^ is really good defense.

its true not saying otherwise.

[sca]

Oh look, another Joey vs. DeMar thread. How did it exactly turn out?

[Spates]

A couple advanced stats notes:

Precious had a slightly better net rating than Barnes on the season.

Precious had a better one-year RAPM than Barnes as well. They were basically tied on offense, but Precious had the better defensive RAPM.

Yeah, but Scottie had a better PER than Precious. 16.37 vs 12.69. Even Birch had a better PER than Precious.

[kj_]

Masai confirmed as much when he said Banton was drafted a year early. That’s how they were able to get him where they did.

Precious and banton don’t need to be compared to barnes is a “who’s better” debate.

The discussion should be the raps have good young talent that has room to grow. If they were all high draft picks expectations of their ceiling would be higher. Getting drafted where they did, doesn’t mean they can’t get to a very high ceiling.

Game 1 win. Exciting year ahead.


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