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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition

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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#341 » by winforlose » Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:44 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
m2002brian wrote:
winforlose wrote:
Nets say no because they lose Kyrie and their season, plus they can get 2 unprotected firsts anytime they want to by cutting us out. Wolves say no because AD is injury prone and a worse fit with Gobert. Not to mention Kyrie is a headcase who leaves, lakers say yes because they get infinitely better.


I always enjoy the “after X games” take. As if we haven’t watched KAT do the same boneheaded stuff for YEARS.
Also, we don’t want AD, not do we want to help the lakers.
Some trade where NJ gets Fox, we get Kyrie, Kings get KAT, then trade DLo for front court shooting.
Or just cut NJ out and keep Fox.

With all the boneheaded stuff KAT does he was still ranked the 13th best player in the NBA by ESPN IIRC. I may be off a spot or two.


They over inflate offense, but KAT is still underrated, and poorly officiated. If he got Embiid treatment he would be second or even first team All NBA and would live at the free throw line. Seriously, he could build a hut and sip cocktails in between free throw sets.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#342 » by shrink » Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:09 pm

I love trades, but I just don’t see the Wolves making trades for a while.

Right now, I think the players we have added here, are here for a purpose. The starters won’t get touched, and Nowell is described as critical. Austin Rivers is a role-player who doesn’t care about personal stats and wants to focus on making Ant better. Bryn Forbes is a vet running three-point shooter to fill the Beasley role on a vet min deal. Kyle Anderson seems like he could be instrumental, and Taurean Prince is a big wing, and off court leader. The team runs better with McLaughlin encouraging ball movement. Naz and Knight might not have enough minutes, but at the price, they are valuable depth.

I have been looking for a place to mention this: My first few years here, I wanted to see every ounce of value squeezed out of every asset, to always pay it forward. The worse sin would be to “lose a player for nothing,” like we did last season when we didn’t trade Josh Okogie for a future asset, and lost him in free agency. However, that’s unrealistic. It’s very difficult to find any value for players below the 50th percentile, which is why the entire NBA has so many see their contracts expire and we have a free agency full of useful players each year. If people are frustrated we didn’t get anything for Okogie, remember MEM didn’t trade Kyle Anderson. There is also value to having a guy on your bench those last four months, for insurance and to maintain team chemistry. This guy knows the team, knows the system, and knows the other players on and off the court.

Right now, I feel bad for Naz. He is too good a player to receive DNP-CD’s some nights, and he would have more on-court value on virtually another team. That said, he has value here to us, especially if we have strong playoff ambitions this year. I hope he is extended for a reasonable number. But for now, I really don’t see him, or any of the Wolves, likely to be traded for some time. We’d have to see some critical hole appear, that only a trade can fill.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#343 » by winforlose » Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:19 pm

shrink wrote:I love trades, but I just don’t see the Wolves making trades for a while.

Right now, I think the players we have added here, are here for a purpose. The starters won’t get touched, and Nowell is described as critical. Austin Rivers is a role-player who doesn’t care about personal stats and wants to focus on making Ant better. Bryn Forbes is a vet running three-point shooter to fill the Beasley role on a vet min deal. Kyle Anderson seems like he could be instrumental, and Taurean Prince is a big wing, and off court leader. The team runs better with McLaughlin encouraging ball movement. Naz and Knight might not have enough minutes, but at the price, they are valuable depth.

I have been looking for a place to mention this: My first few years here, I wanted to see every ounce of value squeezed out of every asset, to always pay it forward. The worse sin would be to “lose a player for nothing,” like we did last season when we didn’t trade Josh Okogie for a future asset, and lost him in free agency. However, that’s unrealistic. It’s very difficult to find any value for players below the 50th percentile, which is why we have so many see their contracts expire and enter free agency each year. There is also value to having a guy on your bench those last four months, for insurance and to maintain team chemistry. This guy knows the team, knows the system, and knows the other players on and off the court.

Right now, I feel bad for Naz. He is too good a player to receive DNP-CD’s some nights, and he would have more value on another team. That said, he has value here to us, especially if we have strong playoff ambitions this year. I hope he is extended for a reasonable number. But for now, I really don’t see him, or any of the Wolves, likely to be traded for some time. We’d have to see some critical hole appear, that only a trade can fill.


All of this is valid. I won’t pretend that we lack depth or that we can actually find minutes for every player who deserves them. In fact Garza probably needs minutes to develop into the next Naz Reid, and he won’t find them here. But, being deep doesn’t mean we cannot get deeper. Having every player performing a role doesn’t mean we cannot get improvement in those roles. For example, JMAC is getting torched on defense every possession. He is simply too small. Add to that his abysmal shooting through 3 games (grain of salt with a hurt shoulder,) and his lack of minutes, and we are left to wonder if maybe we couldn’t improve at the backup PG. Now, we have Rivers (who I doubt will be on the team come December, I think PJ Dozier gets his spot,) Forbes (Nowell should and probably will get all his minutes, which means he is emergency depth and very occasional spot minutes,) and Naz, who all are not in the rotation but are rotation worthy on another team. Finding guys who might give us what we are missing for those non rotation players seems like a good idea.

P.S given the time of year any trade is unlikely.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#344 » by shrink » Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:52 pm

Hey, I’m all for a good churn, especially when we have a talent evaluator like Connelly at the helm.

I just think I’m going to have to be patient. I feel like right now, the Timberwolves are one of the least likely teams to do any trades for the next few months, as we adjust to our new chemistry. It’s kind of a tribute to a good off-season - rarely do we finish one without some very obvious holes that need to be fixed ASAP.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#345 » by winforlose » Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:56 pm

shrink wrote:Hey, I’m all for a good churn, especially when we have a talent evaluator like Connelly at the helm.

I just think I’m going to have to be patient. I feel like right now, the Timberwolves are one of the least likely teams to do any trades for the next few months, as we adjust to our new chemistry. It’s kind of a tribute to a good off-season - rarely do we finish one without some very obvious holes that need to be fixed ASAP.


You are correct. The only thing that might shake this up is the extension negotiations. Finch just made it really difficult to resign Naz (see his post game interview.) Jaylen, probably wants more money and minutes than we are currently offering. I do think we go up to meet his demands as he is worth it. I think we also resign Dlo at between 25-30 to keep the window open. All of this could suggest trade talks around the deadline, with a lot of rumors before it.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#346 » by frankenwolf » Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:17 pm

winforlose wrote:
shrink wrote:Hey, I’m all for a good churn, especially when we have a talent evaluator like Connelly at the helm.

I just think I’m going to have to be patient. I feel like right now, the Timberwolves are one of the least likely teams to do any trades for the next few months, as we adjust to our new chemistry. It’s kind of a tribute to a good off-season - rarely do we finish one without some very obvious holes that need to be fixed ASAP.


You are correct. The only thing that might shake this up is the extension negotiations. Finch just made it really difficult to resign Naz (see his post game interview.) Jaylen, probably wants more money and minutes than we are currently offering. I do think we go up to meet his demands as he is worth it. I think we also resign Dlo at between 25-30 to keep the window open. All of this could suggest trade talks around the deadline, with a lot of rumors before it.


I am not a cap guru/salary guy, but do you really think they will sign D'Lo for 30/yr? Other discussions have had him a lot closer to 22, maybe 25.
I'll hang up and listen, thanks.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#347 » by shrink » Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:36 pm

frankenwolf wrote:
winforlose wrote:
shrink wrote:Hey, I’m all for a good churn, especially when we have a talent evaluator like Connelly at the helm.

I just think I’m going to have to be patient. I feel like right now, the Timberwolves are one of the least likely teams to do any trades for the next few months, as we adjust to our new chemistry. It’s kind of a tribute to a good off-season - rarely do we finish one without some very obvious holes that need to be fixed ASAP.


You are correct. The only thing that might shake this up is the extension negotiations. Finch just made it really difficult to resign Naz (see his post game interview.) Jaylen, probably wants more money and minutes than we are currently offering. I do think we go up to meet his demands as he is worth it. I think we also resign Dlo at between 25-30 to keep the window open. All of this could suggest trade talks around the deadline, with a lot of rumors before it.


I am not a cap guru/salary guy, but do you really think they will sign D'Lo for 30/yr? Other discussions have had him a lot closer to 22, maybe 25.
I'll hang up and listen, thanks.

1. The CBA does not have any limitations on what we can offer DLo, up to the max. It comes down to whether DLo and the team can agree to a number.

2. From the team side of the deal, they will be paying luxury tax in two years when KAT and Ant (and McDaniels?) extensions kick in - there is no real way to avoid it. They would prefer to remain under the lux this year, and perhaps even next year, so they don’t start the clock on paying the repeater tax - a much more expensive additional lux tax for teams that have been over the lux several years.

The Wolves also need to worry about losing DLo for nothing this summer. Since their salary will be over the salary cap, they can only add new players with exceptions (to the cap), most prominently, the Mid-Level Exception (around $10 mil this year). Unfortunately, the going rate for a starting PG exceeds that (Tyus got $15), so if DLo walks, his replacement will probably be worse.

3. Russell’s side has limitations too. Obviously he wants to get paid as much as he can, like any NBA player. However, he must recognize that there is no better fit out there than the Wolves, on a team that embraces him, a coach he loves, his best friend is here, and now playing next to Gobert should make his numbers look even better. If he reaches free agency, there is no guarantee there is a great job waiting for him - he might end up treading water in Charlotte.

4. In a typical season, I wouldn’t expect DLo to get more than $20. However, with a massive influx of money coming in from a new tv deal, that number could be much higher. The final salary will come down to each side’s use of their leverage.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#348 » by winforlose » Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:07 pm

frankenwolf wrote:
winforlose wrote:
shrink wrote:Hey, I’m all for a good churn, especially when we have a talent evaluator like Connelly at the helm.

I just think I’m going to have to be patient. I feel like right now, the Timberwolves are one of the least likely teams to do any trades for the next few months, as we adjust to our new chemistry. It’s kind of a tribute to a good off-season - rarely do we finish one without some very obvious holes that need to be fixed ASAP.


You are correct. The only thing that might shake this up is the extension negotiations. Finch just made it really difficult to resign Naz (see his post game interview.) Jaylen, probably wants more money and minutes than we are currently offering. I do think we go up to meet his demands as he is worth it. I think we also resign Dlo at between 25-30 to keep the window open. All of this could suggest trade talks around the deadline, with a lot of rumors before it.


I am not a cap guru/salary guy, but do you really think they will sign D'Lo for 30/yr? Other discussions have had him a lot closer to 22, maybe 25.
I'll hang up and listen, thanks.


Shrink kind of covered a lot of what I was gonna say, but I feel I should add a few things.

1. Payrolls: The payrolls went from creeping up a few years ago to exploding now. It is becoming true that to contend (not simply make the playoffs,) you must spend big money. But, the rules don’t let you spend money over the tax outside of the MLE (or tax payer MLE,) and minimum contracts. This creates this weird space where you need to spend money but cannot. Enter point number 2.

2. Bird rights: Bird rights are the magic exception to the cap that allow teams to go from 149 million to 170 million or more over night. Bird rights are how the Warriors kept their team together, how the Clippers and Bucks, and other expensive teams kept their group together, and it is essential for us to do the same. Not only for continuity, but also for deal making. When you cannot bringing in a lot of free agent talent (again minimums and exemptions,) trading is your best bet. This brings us to point 3.

3. Salary slot: A good way to think about salary slot is the amount a single player can be traded for to bring in new talent. Obviously there is incentive to overpay the player so as to have more money to work with. But, if a player makes too much relative to their talent level, then they become a negative asset. Negative assets are usually only able to bring back negative assets without providing positive assets to balance the scale. This becomes a delicate dance. If you underpay a player and they agree to stay then you might struggle to trade them later should the need arise. This is when teams add filler. The Goldilocks zone is to pay them enough to make them happy, make other teams think they are probably worth it, and not break the bank in the tax. Dlo is probably worth around 22-25. I can see him making more so that we don’t lose his salary slot.

4. Negotiation: Remember that these salary talks are negotiations between highly skilled negotiators. Dlo’s agent knows about our salary issues and has leverage to increase his payments. But, if Dlo gets hurt without a new deal, it could cost him a ton of money both on the missed time and on the new deal (he might need a prove it year depending on the injury.) Also remember this is Dlo’s prime earning time. The third contract is usually the biggest. But Dlo was overpaid on his second. This means a paycut. But Dlo probably doesn’t value himself in the mid tier, he probably sees himself as a max guy in the elite tier. All in all, I think we overpay Dlo, overpay Nowell, trade Naz for a cheap young player (I like Terrance Mann as a trade target, another name is Payton Pritchard, but there are others,) and then run it back. Keeping Prince and Anderson will be important next year.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#349 » by Devilzsidewalk » Tue Oct 25, 2022 3:59 pm

D'Lo/LilMac for Caruso/Ball and a lotto protected 1st.

We'll take on Lonzo Ball's knees and remaining years @ 20 mil per so we can get Caruso, then hopefully Ball comes back someday. Caruso starts and replaces our missing hustle.

Chicago gets out of Ball's contract, and a healthy body who can play 30+ mpg. Dosunmu becomes a super sub.

Good? Bad? CRAZY TALK?
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#350 » by Slim Tubby » Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:06 pm

It's not happening but what kind of return could we get for KAT?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#351 » by Slim Tubby » Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:08 pm

frankenwolf wrote:
winforlose wrote:
shrink wrote:Hey, I’m all for a good churn, especially when we have a talent evaluator like Connelly at the helm.

I just think I’m going to have to be patient. I feel like right now, the Timberwolves are one of the least likely teams to do any trades for the next few months, as we adjust to our new chemistry. It’s kind of a tribute to a good off-season - rarely do we finish one without some very obvious holes that need to be fixed ASAP.


You are correct. The only thing that might shake this up is the extension negotiations. Finch just made it really difficult to resign Naz (see his post game interview.) Jaylen, probably wants more money and minutes than we are currently offering. I do think we go up to meet his demands as he is worth it. I think we also resign Dlo at between 25-30 to keep the window open. All of this could suggest trade talks around the deadline, with a lot of rumors before it.


I am not a cap guru/salary guy, but do you really think they will sign D'Lo for 30/yr? Other discussions have had him a lot closer to 22, maybe 25.
I'll hang up and listen, thanks.


Depending on how the season unfolds, I think it's more likely that we trade Russell's expiring contract at the deadline rather than the Wolves re-signing him to another $20M+/year contract.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#352 » by m2002brian » Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:28 am

KAT getting roasted by the media.

Don’t help the optics that Ant already doesn’t like playing with him when he’s getting so few touches when they play together. Guessing nobody on the team enjoys his whining an d lack of getting back when doing so.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#353 » by Klomp » Wed Oct 26, 2022 3:34 am

Just curious, where would negotiations go after an initial offer of swapping Karl-Anthony Towns and Anthony Davis?

(note: I'm well aware any Towns trade cannot legally occur until next summer)
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#354 » by m2002brian » Wed Oct 26, 2022 3:38 am

Klomp wrote:Just curious, where would negotiations go after an initial offer of swapping Karl-Anthony Towns and Anthony Davis?

(note: I'm well aware any Towns trade cannot legally occur until next summer)


Rather have Gordon Hayward and lots of picks. Better fix, stays healthier (not saying much), and doesn’t help the Lakers.

Siakam or Mobley is the dream though.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#355 » by winforlose » Wed Oct 26, 2022 3:43 am

m2002brian wrote:KAT getting roasted by the media.

Don’t help the optics that Ant already doesn’t like playing with him when he’s getting so few touches when they play together. Guessing nobody on the team enjoys his whining an d lack of getting back when doing so.


Ant shoots more than KAT almost every game. KAT is too willing a passer and too reluctant a 3 point shooter. Also, in my experience Ant LOVES playing with KAT because KAT draws the double and opens things for Ant. When he plays without KAT he gets doubled and he often has to move the ball more. That is why Nowell scored 10 straight and JMAC the final two in game 2 or 3’s third quarter.

As for not enjoying the whining, I tend to agree, but this is a league of whiny stars. Do you think Trey Young’s or Luka Doncic, or Joker, or Embiid or Harden, or KD or any other elite player doesn’t whine? Bottom line is KAT is an extremely talented big who has a terrible reputation and relationship with officials. He takes an enormous amount of contact without getting whistles. Is it smart, of course not. But winning is the remedy. Win enough games enough straight years and the league starts protecting you and keeping you on the floor. The biggest issue is fighting through screens and playing with WANT TO, not team chemistry.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#356 » by minimus » Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:47 pm

Is Tre Jones a low profile PG that can fit next to high volume shooters such as Towns, Edwards and Nowell?
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#357 » by Klomp » Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:54 pm

minimus wrote:Is Tre Jones a low profile PG that can fit next to high volume shooters such as Towns, Edwards and Nowell?

Yes
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#358 » by KGdaBom » Thu Oct 27, 2022 11:36 am

winforlose wrote:
m2002brian wrote:KAT getting roasted by the media.

Don’t help the optics that Ant already doesn’t like playing with him when he’s getting so few touches when they play together. Guessing nobody on the team enjoys his whining an d lack of getting back when doing so.


Ant shoots more than KAT almost every game. KAT is too willing a passer and too reluctant a 3 point shooter. Also, in my experience Ant LOVES playing with KAT because KAT draws the double and opens things for Ant. When he plays without KAT he gets doubled and he often has to move the ball more. That is why Nowell scored 10 straight and JMAC the final two in game 2 or 3’s third quarter.

As for not enjoying the whining, I tend to agree, but this is a league of whiny stars. Do you think Trey Young’s or Luka Doncic, or Joker, or Embiid or Harden, or KD or any other elite player doesn’t whine? Bottom line is KAT is an extremely talented big who has a terrible reputation and relationship with officials. He takes an enormous amount of contact without getting whistles. Is it smart, of course not. But winning is the remedy. Win enough games enough straight years and the league starts protecting you and keeping you on the floor. The biggest issue is fighting through screens and playing with WANT TO, not team chemistry.

I really don't get why you bother debating with this guy.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#359 » by winforlose » Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:36 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
winforlose wrote:
m2002brian wrote:KAT getting roasted by the media.

Don’t help the optics that Ant already doesn’t like playing with him when he’s getting so few touches when they play together. Guessing nobody on the team enjoys his whining an d lack of getting back when doing so.


Ant shoots more than KAT almost every game. KAT is too willing a passer and too reluctant a 3 point shooter. Also, in my experience Ant LOVES playing with KAT because KAT draws the double and opens things for Ant. When he plays without KAT he gets doubled and he often has to move the ball more. That is why Nowell scored 10 straight and JMAC the final two in game 2 or 3’s third quarter.

As for not enjoying the whining, I tend to agree, but this is a league of whiny stars. Do you think Trey Young’s or Luka Doncic, or Joker, or Embiid or Harden, or KD or any other elite player doesn’t whine? Bottom line is KAT is an extremely talented big who has a terrible reputation and relationship with officials. He takes an enormous amount of contact without getting whistles. Is it smart, of course not. But winning is the remedy. Win enough games enough straight years and the league starts protecting you and keeping you on the floor. The biggest issue is fighting through screens and playing with WANT TO, not team chemistry.

I really don't get why you bother debating with this guy.


On the way back to my dorm when I was a freshman I stopped in the middle of February at 1am debate religion with a Jahova’s witness who told me the good news. We went at for over an hour, all outdoors. I believe anyone can see the light ;)
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#360 » by frankenwolf » Thu Oct 27, 2022 2:30 pm

winforlose wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
winforlose wrote:
Ant shoots more than KAT almost every game. KAT is too willing a passer and too reluctant a 3 point shooter. Also, in my experience Ant LOVES playing with KAT because KAT draws the double and opens things for Ant. When he plays without KAT he gets doubled and he often has to move the ball more. That is why Nowell scored 10 straight and JMAC the final two in game 2 or 3’s third quarter.

As for not enjoying the whining, I tend to agree, but this is a league of whiny stars. Do you think Trey Young’s or Luka Doncic, or Joker, or Embiid or Harden, or KD or any other elite player doesn’t whine? Bottom line is KAT is an extremely talented big who has a terrible reputation and relationship with officials. He takes an enormous amount of contact without getting whistles. Is it smart, of course not. But winning is the remedy. Win enough games enough straight years and the league starts protecting you and keeping you on the floor. The biggest issue is fighting through screens and playing with WANT TO, not team chemistry.

I really don't get why you bother debating with this guy.


On the way back to my dorm when I was a freshman I stopped in the middle of February at 1am debate religion with a Jahova’s witness who told me the good news. We went at for over an hour, all outdoors. I believe anyone can see the light ;)


And that explains win in a nutshell. :)
Your 2026-2027 NBA Champions!! :D

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