2022-23 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.1)

[Exp0sed]

The craziest thing about Jokic being the best offensive player in the game is the small amount of possessions he consumes relatively speaking.

There are six players with a Per higher than 30 this year. Look at their usage rates:

Giannis 37.2
Luka 41.1
Ja 36.1
Wood 31.3
Tatum 30.1
Jokic 22.9

He ranks #72 in the league in usage rate below players like Malik Monk, Bobby Portis and even pass first Tyus Jones. It’s crazy, to me, the impact that a player can have just by facilitating an offense often without getting a statistic as a result. Some could say that his low usage rate suggests he’s playing passive which is a detriment to the team, but at the same time, he’s simply the most selfless player in the league and a zebra can’t change its stripes. It’s just fun to watch a guy dominate so much by doing so little statistically, if that makes any sense lol

that's not his "stripes"
It's a long season and he is a team-first guy that also doesn't care much about personal accolades
he doesn't care how many shots he takes or who is taking the shots as long as they are good ones

he doesn't have the stamina to do that night after night in the rs, this is not about passivity
we have seen him go to a "gimme the ball" attack mode, when the team really needed it at times last season where really, if the play didn't go thru him they weren't getting anything offensively cuz they were playing g-leaguers

we've seen in in the playoffs in the past and as recently as last season vs the Dubs, where he took a massive offensive load on himself and was incredible (offensively)

he is totally capable and willing to defer, but can also do the opposite, if called upon or if he decided it's needed that he'll take more on himself - no Zebra here

[CobraCommander]

It's Luka's year. He's going to win it. Dallas will have a top 2-3 team in the West.

You think Luka because you think he is best player on earth or that the voters gonna just give it to him based on his previous playoff performance?

I ask because right now he is in the second tier of MVP candidates based on the super early results (4 games in lol) and there are at least 5 guys playing better so far.

If you asked me to bet money, I would see Luka getting it based on voters picking him even if other guys are having better regular seasons because it’s an opinion poll.

I find that the MVP vote is very narrative based. Like Russ winning it for averaging a triple double even though I believe OKC at the time was the 5th or 6th seed at the time.

Jokic won it twice now so I very doubt he'll get a 3rd in a row. He's great, but there is also voter fatigue. It'll come down to Giannis and Luka in my opinion, and if both the Bucks and Mavs have similar records, the voters will pick Luka since he hasn't won it before. At least that's what my gut is telling me.

I feel like Lukas regular season numbers won’t warrant him winning the MVP, and if he does win it will be because the voters take into consideration what they have seen him do in the playoffs and when the games matter.

The narrative right now is Luka is a killer when it matters (playoffs and crunch time) in the vein of Kobe and Ja and MJ and Giannis unlike TMaC and honestly currently Booker and CP3 .

The narrative is Luka really isn’t overly invested in the regular season. I think voters will vote for Luka over Giannis if it’s close for the same reasons you said... but it won’t be because any of them think Luka is better than Giannis or even Jokic. It just feels like Lukas year...so it’s his to lose based on his playoffs over the last few years.



With that said

[CobraCommander]

The craziest thing about Jokic being the best offensive player in the game is the small amount of possessions he consumes relatively speaking.

There are six players with a Per higher than 30 this year. Look at their usage rates:

Giannis 37.2
Luka 41.1
Ja 36.1
Wood 31.3
Tatum 30.1
Jokic 22.9

He ranks #72 in the league in usage rate below players like Malik Monk, Bobby Portis and even pass first Tyus Jones. It’s crazy, to me, the impact that a player can have just by facilitating an offense often without getting a statistic as a result. Some could say that his low usage rate suggests he’s playing passive which is a detriment to the team, but at the same time, he’s simply the most selfless player in the league and a zebra can’t change its stripes. It’s just fun to watch a guy dominate so much by doing so little statistically, if that makes any sense lol

that's not his "stripes"
It's a long season and he is a team-first guy that also doesn't care much about personal accolades
he doesn't care how many shots he takes or who is taking the shots as long as they are good ones

he doesn't have the stamina to do that night after night in the rs, this is not about passivity
we have seen him go to a "gimme the ball" attack mode, when the team really needed it at times last season where really, if the play didn't go thru him they weren't getting anything offensively cuz they were playing g-leaguers

we've seen in in the playoffs in the past and as recently as last season vs the Dubs, where he took a massive offensive load on himself and was incredible (offensively)

he is totally capable and willing to defer, but can also do the opposite, if called upon or if he decided it's needed that he'll take more on himself - no Zebra here

Jokic defies logic....he doesn’t look, run, sound like the best basketball player on earth but...but Jokic is a pure basketball genius. This team is going to compete for a ring this year and if they do...Jokic might be a 3time mvp

[Infinite Llamas]

The craziest thing about Jokic being the best offensive player in the game is the small amount of possessions he consumes relatively speaking.

There are six players with a Per higher than 30 this year. Look at their usage rates:

Giannis 37.2
Luka 41.1
Ja 36.1
Wood 31.3
Tatum 30.1
Jokic 22.9

He ranks #72 in the league in usage rate below players like Malik Monk, Bobby Portis and even pass first Tyus Jones. It’s crazy, to me, the impact that a player can have just by facilitating an offense often without getting a statistic as a result. Some could say that his low usage rate suggests he’s playing passive which is a detriment to the team, but at the same time, he’s simply the most selfless player in the league and a zebra can’t change its stripes. It’s just fun to watch a guy dominate so much by doing so little statistically, if that makes any sense lol

that's not his "stripes"
It's a long season and he is a team-first guy that also doesn't care much about personal accolades
he doesn't care how many shots he takes or who is taking the shots as long as they are good ones

he doesn't have the stamina to do that night after night in the rs, this is not about passivity
we have seen him go to a "gimme the ball" attack mode, when the team really needed it at times last season where really, if the play didn't go thru him they weren't getting anything offensively cuz they were playing g-leaguers

we've seen in in the playoffs in the past and as recently as last season vs the Dubs, where he took a massive offensive load on himself and was incredible (offensively)

he is totally capable and willing to defer, but can also do the opposite, if called upon or if he decided it's needed that he'll take more on himself - no Zebra here

To be fair, I expect that 22 usage to be closer to 28-29 by the end of the season but it looks like such an outlier right now. I never even thought a 30 per was possible with such a small usage…

I don’t know about the stamina though. I just believe he truly is a pass first player that tries to dominate individually as a “last resort”. We can wonder what his numbers would look like if you give him Luka’s workload…but I just don’t think Jokic will ever be that ball dominant of a player. It isn’t stamina. It’s just the way he learned to play. Hence the zebra.

[Exp0sed]

The craziest thing about Jokic being the best offensive player in the game is the small amount of possessions he consumes relatively speaking.

There are six players with a Per higher than 30 this year. Look at their usage rates:

Giannis 37.2
Luka 41.1
Ja 36.1
Wood 31.3
Tatum 30.1
Jokic 22.9

He ranks #72 in the league in usage rate below players like Malik Monk, Bobby Portis and even pass first Tyus Jones. It’s crazy, to me, the impact that a player can have just by facilitating an offense often without getting a statistic as a result. Some could say that his low usage rate suggests he’s playing passive which is a detriment to the team, but at the same time, he’s simply the most selfless player in the league and a zebra can’t change its stripes. It’s just fun to watch a guy dominate so much by doing so little statistically, if that makes any sense lol

that's not his "stripes"
It's a long season and he is a team-first guy that also doesn't care much about personal accolades
he doesn't care how many shots he takes or who is taking the shots as long as they are good ones

he doesn't have the stamina to do that night after night in the rs, this is not about passivity
we have seen him go to a "gimme the ball" attack mode, when the team really needed it at times last season where really, if the play didn't go thru him they weren't getting anything offensively cuz they were playing g-leaguers

we've seen in in the playoffs in the past and as recently as last season vs the Dubs, where he took a massive offensive load on himself and was incredible (offensively)

he is totally capable and willing to defer, but can also do the opposite, if called upon or if he decided it's needed that he'll take more on himself - no Zebra here

To be fair, I expect that 22 usage to be closer to 28-29 by the end of the season but it looks like such an outlier right now. I never even thought a 30 per was possible with such a small usage…

I don’t know about the stamina though. I just believe he truly is a pass first player that tries to dominate individually as a “last resort”. We can wonder what his numbers would look like if you give him Luka’s workload…but I just don’t think Jokic will ever be that ball dominant of a player. It isn’t stamina. It’s just the way he learned to play. Hence the zebra.

it's both

ofc he learned to play like this and he likes it too, but there is also 0% incentive for the Nuggets to play every possesion thru him which will cost him more energy and possibly keeps him not just fresher but healthier

the adjustment I like from him this season so far, is that he already knows he's getting hammered offensively without calls and on defense gets called for every ticky tacky swipe

instead of doing the "right" thing he is doing the smart thing..just letting the opposition get an easy layup for example, and not risk being hampered by foul trouble and that's great because he knows if he stays on the court, he'll get that basket back for his team and more while if he gets a couple of stupid calls, he'll be forced to sit down and see guy like DAJ squandering huge leads

it's better to concede the basket

it's also much better for his teammates, getting the reps
I just think about a team like Philly where it's Iso Harden, Iso Embiid over and over..how are the other players supposed to be productive when called upon when they barely got any reps in

Jokic keeps everyone invloved and that's just fun to see

[Exp0sed]

The craziest thing about Jokic being the best offensive player in the game is the small amount of possessions he consumes relatively speaking.

There are six players with a Per higher than 30 this year. Look at their usage rates:

Giannis 37.2
Luka 41.1
Ja 36.1
Wood 31.3
Tatum 30.1
Jokic 22.9

He ranks #72 in the league in usage rate below players like Malik Monk, Bobby Portis and even pass first Tyus Jones. It’s crazy, to me, the impact that a player can have just by facilitating an offense often without getting a statistic as a result. Some could say that his low usage rate suggests he’s playing passive which is a detriment to the team, but at the same time, he’s simply the most selfless player in the league and a zebra can’t change its stripes. It’s just fun to watch a guy dominate so much by doing so little statistically, if that makes any sense lol

that's not his "stripes"
It's a long season and he is a team-first guy that also doesn't care much about personal accolades
he doesn't care how many shots he takes or who is taking the shots as long as they are good ones

he doesn't have the stamina to do that night after night in the rs, this is not about passivity
we have seen him go to a "gimme the ball" attack mode, when the team really needed it at times last season where really, if the play didn't go thru him they weren't getting anything offensively cuz they were playing g-leaguers

we've seen in in the playoffs in the past and as recently as last season vs the Dubs, where he took a massive offensive load on himself and was incredible (offensively)

he is totally capable and willing to defer, but can also do the opposite, if called upon or if he decided it's needed that he'll take more on himself - no Zebra here

Jokic defies logic....he doesn’t look, run, sound like the best basketball player on earth but...but Jokic is a pure basketball genius. This team is going to compete for a ring this year and if they do...Jokic might be a 3time mvp

this steal + tap to get control of the ball, running the break and the perfect bounce pass on the fly...

that's what a genius looks like, no doubt
no way to teach that, on defense just watch AD thinking much slower than Jokic

Watch on YouTube

[CharityStripe34]

Gianni and Jokic are the two best players on Earth. IMO, if they're both healthy they will compete for multiple MVPs.

Right behind them are (as of now) Tatum and Doncic. Tatum's been playing incredibly well, and we already know Luka puts up video game numbers.

Those four will (most likely) be competing for MVP votes if they all remain healthy and their teams are successful.

[Dutchball97]

Giannis is averaging 36/13/5/1/2 on 71 TS%, leading the league in PPG, WS/48 and BPM, all while being the clear best player on the only undefeated team left. Right now he's definitely in the lead for MVP but the season is long and it looks like he'll have plenty of competition from the likes of Tatum, Luka and Jokic.

[AussieBuck]

The voter fatigue thing with Giannis is **** lol. Is there like a lifetime limit on non US MVPs or something? Dude won his second one 3 years ago and has dominated since.

He lost to a non US player the last two years, so this doesn’t even make sense. Also he didn’t deserve to win it either of the two seasons. To act like there was a robbery when his team didn’t have a top 5 record either year, he didn’t have the best box-score production of the award contenders, and he didn’t have the best advanced metrics is really weird. He also missed a decent number of games. Without any of those, he didn’t have a strong argument over the other guys.

Yeah you're just having a talk with yourself here so I'll leave you to it.

Edit: this didn't need to be this combative, I think you didn't pick up what I was putting down and that's probably mostly my sloppy posting. Posting misunderstanding is all.

[DonaldSanders]

Right now tough not to put Giannis in the driver's seat. Still early, but that's where we're at. I still think Steph is getting slept on a bit though.

[CobraCommander]

The craziest thing about Jokic being the best offensive player in the game is the small amount of possessions he consumes relatively speaking.

There are six players with a Per higher than 30 this year. Look at their usage rates:

Giannis 37.2
Luka 41.1
Ja 36.1
Wood 31.3
Tatum 30.1
Jokic 22.9

He ranks #72 in the league in usage rate below players like Malik Monk, Bobby Portis and even pass first Tyus Jones. It’s crazy, to me, the impact that a player can have just by facilitating an offense often without getting a statistic as a result. Some could say that his low usage rate suggests he’s playing passive which is a detriment to the team, but at the same time, he’s simply the most selfless player in the league and a zebra can’t change its stripes. It’s just fun to watch a guy dominate so much by doing so little statistically, if that makes any sense lol

that's not his "stripes"
It's a long season and he is a team-first guy that also doesn't care much about personal accolades
he doesn't care how many shots he takes or who is taking the shots as long as they are good ones

he doesn't have the stamina to do that night after night in the rs, this is not about passivity
we have seen him go to a "gimme the ball" attack mode, when the team really needed it at times last season where really, if the play didn't go thru him they weren't getting anything offensively cuz they were playing g-leaguers

we've seen in in the playoffs in the past and as recently as last season vs the Dubs, where he took a massive offensive load on himself and was incredible (offensively)

he is totally capable and willing to defer, but can also do the opposite, if called upon or if he decided it's needed that he'll take more on himself - no Zebra here

To be fair, I expect that 22 usage to be closer to 28-29 by the end of the season but it looks like such an outlier right now. I never even thought a 30 per was possible with such a small usage…

I don’t know about the stamina though. I just believe he truly is a pass first player that tries to dominate individually as a “last resort”. We can wonder what his numbers would look like if you give him Luka’s workload…but I just don’t think Jokic will ever be that ball dominant of a player. It isn’t stamina. It’s just the way he learned to play. Hence the zebra.

Is it crazy to just say Jokic is more efficient and effective than Luka at this point in Lukas young life/career? When ever we compare Jokic to anyone like Giannis or Luka we have to Try to make UP a reason for why what our eyes are telling us isn’t true…. Maybe the truth is jokic is better than both those guys at basketball?? Hard to except but maybe it’s just true?!?

[MickeyDavis]

Many (dumb) voters only look at numbers and then they only look at the big 3 (points, rebounds, assists). And often just scoring. Giannis scoring will settle back down in the 30 range once Middleton, and to a lesser extent, Connaughton return. I'm a Giannis fanboy (unapologetically, I've seen him play live probably 200 times at least). He'll be in the mix no doubt. As will Joker. Curry. Luka. Tatum. Besides using only numbers there are always some voters that figure it's someone's "turn" so that helps Luka and Tatum. But they're all great players and a lot of things happen in the ridiculously long NBA season. Injuries will always be a factor. There's also tons of young talent who will be in the MVP mix soon enough.

[NO-KG-AI]

It's very early, but it's definitely not a negative to get off to such a good start for the discussions.

I hope Giannis never loses his love and passion for wrecking teams in the regular season like it's game 7 in the playoffs. <3

[Prez]

that's not his "stripes"
It's a long season and he is a team-first guy that also doesn't care much about personal accolades
he doesn't care how many shots he takes or who is taking the shots as long as they are good ones

he doesn't have the stamina to do that night after night in the rs, this is not about passivity
we have seen him go to a "gimme the ball" attack mode, when the team really needed it at times last season where really, if the play didn't go thru him they weren't getting anything offensively cuz they were playing g-leaguers

we've seen in in the playoffs in the past and as recently as last season vs the Dubs, where he took a massive offensive load on himself and was incredible (offensively)

he is totally capable and willing to defer, but can also do the opposite, if called upon or if he decided it's needed that he'll take more on himself - no Zebra here

To be fair, I expect that 22 usage to be closer to 28-29 by the end of the season but it looks like such an outlier right now. I never even thought a 30 per was possible with such a small usage…

I don’t know about the stamina though. I just believe he truly is a pass first player that tries to dominate individually as a “last resort”. We can wonder what his numbers would look like if you give him Luka’s workload…but I just don’t think Jokic will ever be that ball dominant of a player. It isn’t stamina. It’s just the way he learned to play. Hence the zebra.

Is it crazy to just say Jokic is more efficient and effective than Luka at this point in Lukas young life/career? When ever we compare Jokic to anyone like Giannis or Luka we have to Try to make UP a reason for why what our eyes are telling us isn’t true…. Maybe the truth is jokic is better than both those guys at basketball?? Hard to except but maybe it’s just true?!?

Not everyone’s eyes tell them that lol. There’s not a ton you have to “make up” to take Giannis above Jokic. There are very legitimate arguments either way.

Luka, yeah, I agree Jokic is still better than Luka.

[CobraCommander]

To be fair, I expect that 22 usage to be closer to 28-29 by the end of the season but it looks like such an outlier right now. I never even thought a 30 per was possible with such a small usage…

I don’t know about the stamina though. I just believe he truly is a pass first player that tries to dominate individually as a “last resort”. We can wonder what his numbers would look like if you give him Luka’s workload…but I just don’t think Jokic will ever be that ball dominant of a player. It isn’t stamina. It’s just the way he learned to play. Hence the zebra.

Is it crazy to just say Jokic is more efficient and effective than Luka at this point in Lukas young life/career? When ever we compare Jokic to anyone like Giannis or Luka we have to Try to make UP a reason for why what our eyes are telling us isn’t true…. Maybe the truth is jokic is better than both those guys at basketball?? Hard to except but maybe it’s just true?!?

Not everyone’s eyes tell them that lol. There’s not a ton you have to “make up” to take Giannis above Jokic. There are very legitimate arguments either way.

Luka, yeah, I agree Jokic is still better than Luka.

Defensively Giannis is significantly better than Jokic but Jokic is almost that much better than Giannis when it comes to skills on offensive end. Giannis somehow gets it done...but we can’t say with a honesty that Giannis facilitates or shoots as well as Jokic from nearly anywhere apart from a dunk

[HotRocks34]

All Giannis right now

[greekbuck34]

Giannis and Jokic will always be the favourites although there is no chance for Jokic to get a third MVP award without a top 2 seed anymore and I don't think the Nuggets can finish that high with this kind of defense.

Tatum and Luka will take advantage of voters fatique and will be right there with them till the end.

The Blazers are not good enough to finish at the top so Lillard doesn't have a chance.

For me the dark horse will always be Ja Morant since he has so many highlights plays and a great team even without him to keep him at the top of the seedings so I think he can "steal" it in the end.

Right now its clearly Giannis though not only because he is the best and a two way force but also because he is doing it without his 2nd best player and with Jrue Holiday in really bad form.

[Username2323]

Is it crazy to just say Jokic is more efficient and effective than Luka at this point in Lukas young life/career? When ever we compare Jokic to anyone like Giannis or Luka we have to Try to make UP a reason for why what our eyes are telling us isn’t true…. Maybe the truth is jokic is better than both those guys at basketball?? Hard to except but maybe it’s just true?!?

Not everyone’s eyes tell them that lol. There’s not a ton you have to “make up” to take Giannis above Jokic. There are very legitimate arguments either way.

Luka, yeah, I agree Jokic is still better than Luka.

Defensively Giannis is significantly better than Jokic but Jokic is almost that much better than Giannis when it comes to skills on offensive end. Giannis somehow gets it done...but we can’t say with a honesty that Giannis facilitates or shoots as well as Jokic from nearly anywhere apart from a dunk

Giannis had 43 points on 0 dunks last night btw.

[PhilBlackson]

Giannis will deserve it but the league is narrative driven so won't shock me if Luka or Ja (like Rose 2.0) take it.

[CobraCommander]

Not everyone’s eyes tell them that lol. There’s not a ton you have to “make up” to take Giannis above Jokic. There are very legitimate arguments either way.

Luka, yeah, I agree Jokic is still better than Luka.

Defensively Giannis is significantly better than Jokic but Jokic is almost that much better than Giannis when it comes to skills on offensive end. Giannis somehow gets it done...but we can’t say with a honesty that Giannis facilitates or shoots as well as Jokic from nearly anywhere apart from a dunk

Giannis had 43 points on 0 dunks last night btw.