(LOCK THREAD) The LeBron James - 22-23 NBA Season Thread -NBA's All-Time Scoring Leader!

[thebigbird]

No, seriously, where is the endless hate?

Literally everywhere you look on this board and social media.

On this board? Are you kidding me? Nowhere to be seen outside of a bunch of known LeBron haters.

Lol ok

[tsherkin]

Its not "my take", its almost general consensus by now bar of a few die-hard stans. As predicted, the only response is bringing up stats of the teams general decency on D,

They're the 2nd-ranked defense in the league at the moment. That's not "general decency," that's them playing very well on defense and struggling specifically and almost exclusively on offense.

[G35]

- Lebron is having to shoulder more of the scoring load...why is Lebron having to shoulder more of the scoring load? He has AD and WB on the team and they are capable scorers.

You're watching these games and you're willing to call Westbrook a "capable scorer?"

Cool, cool cool. If you're not interested in legitimate discourse, I'll bid you a fine day.

Yes, WB is capable of scoring, I didn't say efficient, I said capable scorer.


WB has NEVER been an efficient scorer and somehow he is a top 75 player and won an MVP.

My point was he was brought in to carry the scoring load. Not be efficient, but score. He can do that. The year prior to the Lakers trading for him he was scoring 22PPG.

Is that not capable? Or do you have some other definition legitimate discourse. The problem is Lebron still wants to score...I wonder why?.....

[AEnigma]

Because Westbrook is garbage at it and teams are fully aware of how garbage he is at it. He was a bad scorer in Washington too, but at least teams would still give some modicum of effort to defend him, and that opened up looks for other scorers. In Los Angeles, there are fewer capable players who could take advantage of whatever scoring gravity he used to have, and then he also continued his decline and teams became more cognisant of him as an outright scoring drain. What exactly is his value when all of that is removed. “He can score,” yeah, so could 2015/16 Kobe, but that does not mean anything when the expected point value on any shot attempt is sub-1.

You would know that if you were more interested in the games than in random player vendettas. The more Westbrook looks to score, the worse it is for the team.

[LesGrossman]

Its not "my take", its almost general consensus by now bar of a few die-hard stans. As predicted, the only response is bringing up stats of the teams general decency on D,

They're the 2nd-ranked defense in the league at the moment. That's not "general decency," that's them playing very well on defense and struggling specifically and almost exclusively on offense.

That is one way to look at it. Ultimately their record is pretty simple, they do not score as much as their opponents. Also, as i pointed out, i'm not questioning that they are okay on D (you can elect to call it differently) as a group. I'm pointing out that LeBron is, posession by posession, not contributing as can be expected by their leader, which has an impact on the people who play alongside, on both ends (even if he is the most hated guy on this board, i think that KD is leading by example much better in terms of D).

I'll ask this way: If i would show you that for one game, posession for posession, he is not doing what coaches consider proper man to man and help defense, and they still end up with excellent defensive numbers by the metrics you quote, what would be a possible explanation in your opinion? Reality doesnt really happen, or maybe the numbers project something different than the individual performance of one player, or do you have another interpretation?

[AEnigma]

What coaches, NBA ones or random recreational youth league ones?

[G35]

Its not "my take", its almost general consensus by now bar of a few die-hard stans. As predicted, the only response is bringing up stats of the teams general decency on D,

They're the 2nd-ranked defense in the league at the moment. That's not "general decency," that's them playing very well on defense and struggling specifically and almost exclusively on offense.

This is where looking exclusively at one stat is misleading.

- they are 11th in points allowed
- they have a scoring margin deficiency of -8.4, only the Nets and Rockets are worse
- Lakers have the slowest pace in the league
- They have the worse ORTG in the league by far


If you delve into their record more closely the Lakers turn into more of a train wreck...but somehow I don't think anyone wants to go that deep into the Lakers problems. Trying to act like the Lakers being "good" on defense when this is an offensive-league...everything is slanted towards the offense for entertainment purposes...is like trying to sell snow in Alaska. Nobody cares about your defense when your losing every game by 8 points or more....

[G35]

Because Westbrook is garbage at it and teams are fully aware of how garbage he is at it. He was a bad scorer in Washington too, but at least teams would still give some modicum of effort to defend him, and that opened up looks for other scorers. In Los Angeles, there are fewer capable players who could take advantage of whatever scoring gravity he used to have, and then he also continued his decline and teams became more cognisant of him as an outright scoring drain. What exactly is his value when all of that is removed. “He can score,” yeah, so could 2015/16 Kobe, but that does not mean anything when the expected point value on any shot attempt is sub-1.

You would know that if you were more interested in the games than in random player vendettas. The more Westbrook looks to score, the worse it is for the team.

That was known BEFORE that trade. That was known before he went to Houston. That was known before he went to Washington.

Who OK'd the trade? Who Sway?!?

[Stalwart]

The question I have is what would this team, and Russ in particular, look like if you replaced 38yr old Lebron with 38yr old Jordan?

I think this team would gell a lot better. Russ could handle the ball, Jordan could play off ball, and Anthony Davis could play down low.

[AEnigma]

Its not "my take", its almost general consensus by now bar of a few die-hard stans. As predicted, the only response is bringing up stats of the teams general decency on D,

They're the 2nd-ranked defense in the league at the moment. That's not "general decency," that's them playing very well on defense and struggling specifically and almost exclusively on offense.

This is where looking exclusively at one stat is misleading.

- they are 11th in points allowed
- they have a scoring margin deficiency of -8.4, only the Nets and Rockets are worse
- Lakers have the slowest pace in the league
- They have the worse ORTG in the league by far


If you delve into their record more closely the Lakers turn into more of a train wreck...but somehow I don't think anyone wants to go that deep into the Lakers problems. Trying to act like the Lakers being "good" on defense when this is an offensive-league...everything is slanted towards the offense for entertainment purposes...is like trying to sell snow in Alaska. Nobody cares about your defense when your losing every game by 8 points or more....

No one was denying the Lakers suck, they were denying the claim that Lebron is inept on defence and that is why they suck.

“He can score,” yeah, so could 2015/16 Kobe, but that does not mean anything when the expected point value on any shot attempt is sub-1.

You would know that if you were more interested in the games than in random player vendettas. The more Westbrook looks to score, the worse it is for the team.

That was known BEFORE that trade. That was known before he went to Houston. That was known before he went to Washington.

Who OK'd the trade? Who Sway?!?

Rob Pelinka.

The question I have is what would this team, and Russ in particular, look like if you replaced 38yr old Lebron with 38yr old Jordan?

I think this team would gell a lot better. Russ could handle the ball, Jordan could play off ball, and Anthony Davis could play down low.

38-year-old Jordan was jacking shots even worse than Lebron. Stop trying to make Russ happen.

[PaulieWal]

- Lebron is having to shoulder more of the scoring load...why is Lebron having to shoulder more of the scoring load? He has AD and WB on the team and they are capable scorers.

You're watching these games and you're willing to call Westbrook a "capable scorer?"

Cool, cool cool. If you're not interested in legitimate discourse, I'll bid you a fine day.

Yes, WB is capable of scoring, I didn't say efficient, I said capable scorer.


WB has NEVER been an efficient scorer and somehow he is a top 75 player and won an MVP.

My point was he was brought in to carry the scoring load. Not be efficient, but score. He can do that. The year prior to the Lakers trading for him he was scoring 22PPG.

Is that not capable? Or do you have some other definition legitimate discourse. The problem is Lebron still wants to score...I wonder why?.....

In what world is Russ a Capable scorer now? He was a capable scorer a few years ago. Now he's a disaster.

[tsherkin]

That is one way to look at it. Ultimately their record is pretty simple, they do not score as much as their opponents. Also, as i pointed out, i'm not questioning that they are okay on D (you can elect to call it differently) as a group. I'm pointing out that LeBron is, posession by posession, not contributing as can be expected by their leader, which has an impact on the people who play alongside, on both ends (even if he is the most hated guy on this board, i think that KD is leading by example much better in terms of D).]

I can certainly agree that Lebron is not contributing a ton on defense at this stage in his career.

I'll ask this way: If i would show you that for one game, posession for posession, he is not doing what coaches consider proper man to man and help defense, and they still end up with excellent defensive numbers by the metrics you quote, what would be a possible explanation in your opinion? Reality doesnt really happen, or maybe the numbers project something different than the individual performance of one player, or do you have another interpretation?

The obvious answer here is one with which we both agree; he is not responsible for driving the team's defense. That isn't a point of contention and never has been.

[Ian Scuffling]

He might just no longer be a great player...but if he actually plays like a no doubt top 10 player the Lakers aren't winless right now.

You think it's impossible for a top-10 player to lose all these games with the team dead-last in 3P%?

James has had his struggles, but the Lakers are dead-last in team 3P%, 2nd-worst in offensive rebounding, 6th-worst in FTr, etc. They blow.

The 87 Bulls lost 5 in a row, then lost 6 in a row a few months later. You wanna argue that MJ wasn't top 10 that year?

Lebron's struggled to start the season because he's shooting too many threes and they aren't falling, to be sure. But he isn't the core problem with the team.

God, I love when I see a reasoned comment in this place. Great comment. It seems that even Lebron's fans are his biggest nitpickers and ankle biters. Yes, for the reasons tsherkin said, Lebron has obvious culpability for the struggles of this team, but his play is far, far down the list of reasons the Lakers are terrible right now. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that.

[Ian Scuffling]

Now, I see the trolls have infested. SMH.

[capfan33]

What coaches, NBA ones or random recreational youth league ones?

Lol, every year I think it was Zach Lowe who would go to NBA front offices and ask them how good Lebron's D was. Every year, same answer "still great, at worst top-30 in the NBA overall". But yea, some unspecified "coaches" say otherwise, unfortunately.

Even though Lebron definitely hasn't been as good defensively the last few seasons specifically.

[capfan33]

The question I have is what would this team, and Russ in particular, look like if you replaced 38yr old Lebron with 38yr old Jordan?

I think this team would gell a lot better. Russ could handle the ball, Jordan could play off ball, and Anthony Davis could play down low.

Haven't been able to watch as consistently as I would like but from what I've seen Russ has been handling the ball quite a bit (and he definitely did last year) and it hasn't been pretty. He needs a very specific type of team at this point to function well, changing one player won't change that, especially considering how bad the Lakers roster is overall.

And Lebron has been playing off-ball, in fact, that's how he's done much of his scoring since Russ came. And this season especially Lebron has been relying a lot on off-ball scoring because his on-ball scoring quite frankly sucks right now lol. Like honestly, I question how much you've actually been watching, not even trying to be condescending but some of this is pretty obvious.

Lebron has been very meh, and given his play right now, the healthy version of 38-year-old Jordan probably is better, but it wouldn't change much with this team. Their problems are way too systematic for a 38-year-old MJ to change much. Finally, AD is not a go-to iso scorer, never has been, and even if he was he would get injured in 10 games if he tried to be.

[AEnigma]

The question I have is what would this team, and Russ in particular, look like if you replaced 38yr old Lebron with 38yr old Jordan?

I think this team would gell a lot better. Russ could handle the ball, Jordan could play off ball, and Anthony Davis could play down low.

Haven't been able to watch as consistently as I would like but from what I've seen Russ has been handling the ball quite a bit (and he definitely did last year) and it hasn't been pretty. He needs a very specific type of team at this point to function well, changing one player won't change that, especially considering how bad the Lakers roster is overall.

And Lebron has been playing off-ball, in fact, that's how he's done much of his scoring since Russ came. And this season especially Lebron has been relying a lot on off-ball scoring because his on-ball scoring quite frankly sucks right now lol. Like honestly, I question how much you've actually been watching, not even trying to be condescending but some of this is pretty obvious.

Lebron has been very meh, and given his play right now, the healthy version of 38-year-old Jordan probably is better, but it wouldn't change much with this team. Their problems are way too systematic for a 38-year-old MJ to change much. Finally, AD is not a go-to iso scorer, never has been, and even if he was he would get injured in 10 games if he tried to be.

Even if Lebron maintains these exact shooting splits for the rest of the year (which would be excruciating to watch), not really seeing how Wizards Jordan would be remotely preferable. Odd how even those years are being romanticised now when his inefficient monopolising of scoring possessions at the cost of teammates and disinterest in contributing to a “defensive culture” were exactly what people are trying to pretend Lebron is doing on this Lakers team.

[yoyoboy]

Bron could have had it easy and come back to the Cavs next summer if he was willing to sign for only ~$30 million a year. Would have had the easiest time on defense during his whole career knowing he has Mobley and Allen behind him. And probably the easiest time on offense, as well, having Mitchell, Garland, and Rubio rearing so much of the creation load, and the first two being awesome catch and shoot threats and Mobley and Allen being great lob partners for him in the PnR. Could have taken as many RS games off as he wanted too. As a Cavs fan, I'm mostly glad we can try to do this thing without him for once. But it definitely tells me a lot about what LeBron prioritizes at this point by staying in LA, because he's too smart to believe that team is ever winning a chip again. Nothing wrong with having different priorities than people want you to, either. He's got nothing else to prove in terms of legacy, and in his position, I'm sure most people would take the extra money, exposure, and business opportunities that come with living in LA as well. It's just interesting that theoretically if he valued titles and legacy above all else, the opportunity to do it was there, especially now in a league without any unstoppable teams like the KD-Warriors.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Bron could have had it easy and come back to the Cavs next summer if he was willing to sign for only ~$30 million a year. Would have had the easiest time on defense during his whole career knowing he has Mobley and Allen behind him. And probably the easiest time on offense, as well, having Mitchell, Garland, and Rubio rearing so much of the creation load, and the first two being awesome catch and shoot threats and Mobley and Allen being great lob partners for him in the PnR. Could have taken as many RS games off as he wanted too. As a Cavs fan, I'm mostly glad we can try to do this thing without him for once. But it definitely tells me a lot about what LeBron prioritizes at this point by staying in LA, because he's too smart to believe that team is ever winning a chip again. Nothing wrong with having different priorities than people want you to, either. He's got nothing else to prove in terms of legacy, and in his position, I'm sure most people would take the extra money, exposure, and business opportunities that come with living in LA as well. It's just interesting that theoretically if he valued titles and legacy above all else, the opportunity to do it was there, especially now in a league without any unstoppable teams like the KD-Warriors.

Man I was saying this way back in 2018 when he left Cleveland. Instead of going to LA, he should have gone to Philly who was set up for the future. And what do you know, Philly gave the eventual Championship Raptors the toughest series of their PS. It is what it is, although based on some code language by him, it seems like he is willing to do a lot to play with Bronny. That might be his #1 concern at the moment.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Man I can’t imagine how things would be if Lakers never won in 2020.

This Laker team is the exact opposite way to build around LeBron. Young LeBron would have them still winning but he’s expected to do sooooo much on this team at his age and it’s just not really possible.

His jumper has been trash so far though and I guarantee he’ll figure it out and it will make a big difference. The team 3pt shooting though? Idk if that will get fixed and it’s just so hard to win todays game when teams are fine leaving most of the team wide open because nobody can make them pay.

Turner/Hield would make such a big difference man. I get why Lakers won’t make the trade but as a LeBron fan it sucks that it isn’t happening. Sorry but those picks aren’t gonna mean **** anyways unless the Lakers do a complete overhaul of the ownership/front office.

Lakers as a franchise are basically the Knicks at this point. They are not going to win or get close for a long time and those picks aren’t going to magically make them a competent franchise. I really think Turner/Hield make them a 4 seed or so.

Buddy Hield has the most 3s made in the NBA since the 18-19 NBA season....funny how that works.