Road to a Championship start here, 2022 Draft.

[Whole Truth]

Also, why do u think it took half the game & a staggered lineup for BI to find a groove ?.

Zion ISO, CJ iso, BI iso. Combined 25 for 50. While Pacers shot 22 for 48 from 3. NO's lost the efficiency game. Brick, Pacers 3, take the efficient big out for an inefficient lead guard, where the defensive break down is & was all
night even when Jonas was on bench.

Seeing that CJ will continue to get minutes no matter how poorly he's playing & impacting the team. I am hoping they trade Jonas so I don't have to frustrate myself watching this.

[Whole Truth]

Zion and CJ just picked apart to end the game. Couldnt get a stop because those two just got abused on that end.

They suck, but again, tired of this narrative that those two guys are anchors. The pacers lit us up from behind the line, and it was a team wide effort of not contesting well and guarding the 3 with urgency. In fact imo even beyond Zion and CJ our ceiling defensively is overrated. BI is average, Jonas is meh and not useful in the playoffs, Herb is good if a little overrated and the rest of the team isnt overwhelmingly talented on that end. Again, this is not a championship team, and we should evaluate this team with that in mind, this is a growth year, nothing less, nothing more

Absolutely not true. Jonas was responsible for Raptors first run to the ECF's & was the main reason they won most of their PO series outside the Cavs/Lebron hurdle. Outside of a sweep by Washington early in the Raptors PO appearances, every instance that Raptors & Jonas was unplayable was against the Cavs & Lebron who became eventual champions over an all time GS squad.

Blame him for a rooke Memphis team losing 4-1 when everyone expected a sweep. Best 3pt shooting team in the league then with a pnr PG like Conley where Jenkins had to hide JA in the post with 3J injured all yr. What was Memphis record last yr without JA?. It's because they were that much better defensively without him.

Last yr, Pels took the best team in the league to 6 as Jonas dominated the boards & CJ shot 30% for the series while his combined poorous defense amplified Jonas issue of being able to guard in space. Replace CJ with a more efficient defender & Pels win that series with BI as the teams best player.

[Whole Truth]

They suck, but again, tired of this narrative that those two guys are anchors. The pacers lit us up from behind the line, and it was a team wide effort of not contesting well and guarding the 3 with urgency. In fact imo even beyond Zion and CJ our ceiling defensively is overrated. BI is average, Jonas is meh and not useful in the playoffs, Herb is good if a little overrated and the rest of the team isnt overwhelmingly talented on that end. Again, this is not a championship team, and we should evaluate this team with that in mind, this is a growth year, nothing less, nothing more

Oh dont get me wrong, I agree that I dont think this team has elite defensive potential. That is actually one of the reasons I harp so much on separating CJ and Zion and the whole CJ/Graham backcourt thing needs to come to an end. This team isnt good enough defensively to be able to cover for those guys.

My whole thing is BI/Zion provide enough offense for the starting lineup. You get to law of diminishing returns when you add a guy like CJ, very very rarely are all 3 guys cooking at the same time. So take CJ out of the starting lineup and bring in a defensive guy. Whether that is Jose's energy or Dyson's size and potential (his team defense has a lot of work and that is the main reason I dont push for that). Again agreed 100% that this isnt a stacked defensive team, just think there are better rotations out there with this roster that doesnt shine a spotlight on the defensive issue as much as some of these lineups that we are seeing. I just feel like heavy minutes with CJ/Zion or the CJ/Graham backcourt is just making the issue worse.

oh believe me duke, im so there on wanting CJ relegated to a bench role and dyson or Jose in his place.

Willie's not gonna do that though, and:

a) i think its time people start having discussions about Willie's coaching, because for various reasons its been a problem and its not like hes a rookie anymore

b) this all just makes me lament Griff ever feeling the need to go after CJ, hes never fit this team well, on both ends, and when i think about the fact that we could of had Darius Garland effectively in CJ's place (and... whatever Jaxson Hayes is giving you), it makes my heart hurt deeply lmao

I question the extension more so than the trade. CJ was usefull in Zion's absence. At what point are they going to bring his 30m off the bench so the rookie PG Daniels can develop. At the end of ZIon & BI's contracts when CJ also expires ?, lol. Part reason I've suggest the Irving expiring swap on a couple of occsasion to get a court upgrade on both ends & off that contract long term to make room for Daniels defense.

Said it at the point of trade, Griff capped the teams defensive ceiling by trading for CJ.

[Whole Truth]

Ya Im still giving him time to adjust with this roster (took him 13 games to adjust and give up with the Graham/NAW starting backcourt last year). But ya I think he has been really bad to start this year. The rotations have been head scratching to say the least, some of the late game management has been laughable.

Then when it comes to Zion, Ive mentioned it multiple times on here but the dude exploded the 2nd half of his 2nd season and he did that with getting the ball in his hands, running the PnR and so on. This year its been the opposite, he's posting up 2x the rate he did 2 years ago, Naji has run the PnR more than Zion has. Now granted I did think Zion's offensive role improved this game, but with that meant CJ was completely taken out of his element and was a complete waste of 30+ minutes tonight. And again that goes back to me having issues with how Willie has coached.

And to be clear, I know Im always talking about moving CJ to the bench, but ya I agree. I dont see Willie doing that. Which is crazy to me because its the obvious answer to a lot of the issues with this team. Let CJ come off the bench and play 25 minutes. Give him the 6th man microwave scorer role. His offense isnt needed next to BI and Zion, give those guys defensive high energy role players.

And ya you know how I feel about Griff haha. Ya Murphy and Herb were good draft picks, Jose was a great undrafted nab. I still havent forgot all the other mistakes he has made. Giving a 1st to Adams then giving him an extension before ever playing a minute next to Zion. Then doing the same with Jonas and I was always iffy on if the Zion/Jonas combo would work and it looks like the coaching staff is already giving up on playing them big minutes together. Hell this coaching staff seems like theyre done playing Jonas big minutes period. It still blows my mind that it is year 4 with Zion and Griffin has yet to bring in a 5 that can spread the floor.

It sucks because if the Zion era were holistically managed better by Griff, we could conceivably have been in a position to contend already. Instead we've blown through a treasure trove of assets already and largely not had much to show for them.

I am pretty high on Dyson though, I think eventually he can give you a lot of what Lonzo provides defensively but without the phobia for scoring in the paint and in general just a higher motor on that end.

So, uh, that and the lakers pick is what keeps me going these days, lol. Imagine this team with Dyson/BI/Zion/one of Wemby-Scoot-Amen, etc. and a mobile 5 defensively that can space the floor? Even Griff couldn't screw that up

Wait till they luck into Wemba & they play Wemba - Zion - BI - Herb & CJ with Daniels still stuck on the bench, lol. CJ is currently blocking his path to quicker development. Daniels should be currently growing in these tough losses. Not helplessly riding the vet in false hope, in place of his development. The longer Daniels takes to develop. Both Zion & BI's contracts have only a 4yr window.

Currently most NO's fans, not saying u, are blaming the efficient big man that helped them all of last season. What changed ? Zion & CJ's combined defense in addition to Jonas issues in space. The answer is simple but somehow the wrong player keeps getting benched.

With Jonas you get rebounding, elite screens & efficient offense with his inability to guard in space.

With CJ you get inefficiency, a primary ball handler & play maker, with his inability to pressure the ball.

With both & ZIon you get a complete breakdown & a slow starting Pacers squad putting up 32 in the first Q.

In developing Daniels, his defense & playmaking will more effectively replace CJ as a defensive playmaker, not soaking up touches & shots, with Jonas, Zion & BI's offensive efficiency carrying the offensive responsibility with a more complimentary defensive piece, than Nance having to cover for CJ's inefficiency (20 shots a game on 30%) & the combined defensive breakdowns at the point of attack with Zion. The answer really is that simple. NO's could then choose to ride Nance over Jonas if they need to bolster the defense around Zion & BI from that point.

Problem is, it would be disrepectful to start Daniels in place of the 30m vet... not so simple.

[Whole Truth]

At least the lakers lost again giving them the 3rd worse record, a half game out of last place.

Jazz sitting atop the West with 2 possible lotto tickets.. NO's have more talent but Jazz are currently a no ego team playing & coached like it.

All 3 of NO's OT losses came with the other team switching onto & scoring over CJ.

Meanwhile, Hart just helped Portland beat the Heat to go 7-3 for 3rd place. I know why Portland is playing better but how long do u think NO's & Green will take to figure it out ?.

Keep benching Jonas, the problem might change, lol. Now 1-4 when they do.

[Funcrusher]

You sure it's not because Jonas, lol. It's beyond frustrating.

I'm at a loss for words. If not for the late 3 to end the game. CJ would have been a game/team high -17 instead of -14 in a 9 pt loss. It's a good thing Jonas wasn't on the court in the 4th to blame. Green obviously needed CJ's 3-11 shooting for 9 pts so his defense can get picked apart.

Pels are trending in the wrong direction.

if the jonas bit is in reference to me, i don't understand, because i never put the burden of blame for this team defensively on Jonas, like at all. but he's limited defensively, just like CJ and Zion. it is what it is

It's not a reference to u. I'm a Raptors fan that went to Memphis & now Pels because of Jonas.

I've seen him take "full" blame for Derozan, Ja & now CJ's defense. NO fans are already trying to trade him off the team because he can't cover for both ZIon & CJ like Nance can.

I've seen this movie & excuse with Derozan. Raptors got both Bizz & Ibaka to replace Jonas & neither made the difference they hoped because the problem was always Derozan, just like the problem here, is CJ. Most of the Jonas unplayable narrative is from Derozan fans that blame the 22m role player for not getting over the Cavs PO hump while Derozan got outplayed by JR Smith on both ends.

Jonas played all of 22 mins was 14 / 7 / 2 on an efficient 9 shots.

CJ played 36 mins 9 / 5 / 7 on an inefficient 11 shots.

Whether Jonas was on court or not. Pacers were getting easy looks & makes from 3. With Jonas only playing half the game, what is the reason the other half was more of the same ? = CJ.

Zion needs better ball pressure than what CJ provides more than he needs a defensive rim runner. The sooner NO's can get Daniels into the starting rotation the better.

fair enough.

tbc i do think Jonas is a starting caliber center for most quality teams, its not so much a Jonas thing to me as much as it is i think the league is moving away from being able to win with bigs who exclusively drop back in the paint.

but you're right that it would help him and our team tremendously if we had better POA defenders than heavyweights like, *checks notes*, CJ McCollum and Devonte Graham

[Whole Truth]

fair enough.

tbc i do think Jonas is a starting caliber center for most quality teams, its not so much a Jonas thing to me as much as it is i think the league is moving away from being able to win with bigs who exclusively drop back in the paint.

but you're right that it would help him and our team tremendously if we had better POA defenders than heavyweights like, *checks notes*, CJ McCollum and Devonte Graham

Jonas was drafted in 2012 to a 23 win Raptors team. In his rookie yr he came off the bench to Bargnani where that team won 34 games. When Jonas replaced Bargnani as starter in 2013 for Toronto ...

2013 - 48 wins, PO's first round exit 7 games Brooklyn
2014 - 49 wins, PO's first round exit 4 game sweep Wizards
2015 - 56 wins, PO's ECF's vs Cavs
2016 - 51 wins, PO's Semis vs Cavs
2017 - 59 wins, PO's Semis vs Cavs
2018 - 58 wins, PO's Won finals GS

in 2018 Derozan was traded for Kawhi before the seasons start, Jonas was traded at the deadline for Gasol with the team on pace to win 60 ...

Jonas was traded to a 22 win Memphis team in place of their star Gasol. Then that 22 win team traded Conley to rebuild & draft Ja #2 in Zion's draft. In Jonas first full season with rookie JA, Memphis missed the PO's in the bubble to Portland by a game with 3 key injuries suffered in the bubble. In yr 2 they beat Spurs & GS in the playin with no 3J all year to made the PO's & was ousted by the #1 ranked Jazz in 5. The best 3pt shooting team in the league that yr.

& of course as a Pels fan, you know what happened last yr with no Zion. Suns in 6 after a bumpy start.

If you're checking outside of Jonas rookie yr 2012, where he came off the bench for Bargnani. He's only missed the PO's 1 season in his 10yr career starting. He's reached the Semis twice & the ECF's once as a starter.

Suns use drop with Ayton but they had CP3, Bridges & Crowder. Philly with Embiid use drop coverage. Should Philly cash in on Embiid ?

Jonas is a role player sharing minutes with Nance at the 5. It's an adequate centre rotation if used correctly. The issue here is Jonas is a role player the team can adjust with. CJ is getting playing time whether he's playing well or not because he's CJ... Combined with Jonas he was an issue, combined with Jonas & Zion it's a compounded issue & even if Jonas was to be removed. Everyone only seemed to consider CJ's fit with Zion on the offensive end, not the defensive where they're having muliple breakdowns whether Jonas is on court or not.

Here's another fact. Both Raptors & Memphis had a top 5 defense with Jonas starting.

[Whole Truth]

Pels offense could use some fine tunning but the problem is defense.

I see people trying to make sense of the Jonas/Zion pariing comparing it to the Adams/Zion pairing but they keep leaving out 3/5 ths the starting rotation

most notably, Lonzo Balls defense & transition offense... Part reason Zion was more efficient in his 2nd yr. Pels aren't getting stops so the transition buckets Zion was getting with Ball etc, are down...

Indiana was known for being a slow starting team. They put up 32 in the first Q...

As constituted, the starters don't fit defensively. As I mentioned before last game... asking Nance to start & erase all those defensive mistakes & poor efficiency was going to lead to injury & so said, he left the Pacers game injured. 1 game, more less asking that of him for the yr...

Forget Jonas. Zion needs to be paired with better ball pressure.. BI is the teams best 2 way player & Herb, the best defender, that leaves CJ.. (Daniels, Alvarado, Murphy).

If Herb & Daniels are too poor a fit for spacing, consider Murphy replacing Herb or Alvarado Daniels... one of the 2.

[Duke4life831]

Alright not going to lie, Im beginning to lose faith in Willie. What does he expect with a lineup of

Graham
CJ
Trey
Zion
Willy

I mean come on. I cant think of a worse defensive lineup you can come up with, with this roster. This is basic stuff man, you dont put that lineup out in any situation.

[Duke4life831]

BI showing that he can be so impactful even when his shot isnt falling. My goodness gracious the difference for this team when he has been on the court vs him off the court has been night and day.

And oh look how valuable it can be when you decide to use youre really talented big man and give him touches and shots. One of the reasons why BI is so good. Only has taken 3 shots, but he is just running the offense and getting the ball to the right guys in the right spots.

[Whole Truth]

They got the win but there's alot to clean up ..

[Whole Truth]

Zion - needs to remain focused & engaged when he's not impacting the game offensively. He like Jonas are efficient bigs that if not involved offensively, they can hurt u defensively. 5 boards in 31mins for a man with his size & athleticism.. - positioning, effort.

BI - The teams only 2 way option struggled early but was a team high +19 because everything flows better on both ends with him in the game even when he's struggling.

CJ - I've read his finger is hurting him which could explain the lack of efficicency early but another 3-13 night. Only starter in the minus (-5)... offense functioned better in the 4th Q where it was a good thing he was utilized behind Zion & BI carrying the offense where to date CJ leads the team in FGA's & usage. I don't want to rag because CJ is clearly trying on defense & helped force the late Derozan TO but if we're to be real, if the pass was not at Derozan's feet where he kicked the ball out of bounds. Chicago would have had a Derozan ISO over CJ in a 1 pt game late ...

Jonas - 21 / 13 / 3 on 12 shots & for all his defensive warts was the steadying factor early in the game when NO's were struggling on both ends. When Green subbed in Murphy & Alvarado to compliment him defensively NO's went up 11 until Green followed that move with an all offensive init to close the half, which u mentioned above Duke. BI, Hebr & Jonas only 3 starters greater +.- than the 5 point win.

Herb - is Herb 17pts on 9 shots is great efficicency for the defensive compliment. He just does the little things that helps teams win.

Alvarado - Don't know the exact reason he played limited mins,... 7 pts on 5 shots, 3 rebs, 2 assists in 13 mins -4 where his countepart CJ put up 7 pts on 12 shots 4 rebs, 5 assists in 34 mins -5 in 20 more minutes of play .... Was CJ's defense better? was CJ doing a better job of running the offense? was it CJ's gravity & shooting threat? because the team onthe whole shot 15% from 3. I think it's the latter but IDK.

Coach Green -I'm encouraged seeing Murphy & Alvarado coming in without pulling Jonas because he was playing well. I'm encouraged that he's willing to bench Zion for not putting in defenseive effort. I think he's rewarding CJ's defensive effort to a detriment but would understand what he's rewarding.. His rotations & balance needs work but overall I'm encouraged it's not a lost casuse though this could have been the 5th game a team went to ISO over CJ in a late close game situation.

[Whole Truth]

Looking at the upcoming schedule, it's a gppd thing they pulled out this win. If they don't want to sink past 500 they need to start putting it together as a collective. I still think NO's will find that balance easier if they relegated CJ to changing pace off the bench whether he closes games or not... NO's can't keep getting these slow starts because they can't get stops & if they have to Nance over Jonas but that would run the risk of running down Nance where you'd want him healthy for a PO run.

Notice BI took half the game to find a rythym & the starters functioned best with Zion & BI the main offensive focal point, not CJ.

Zion finished the game with 11 shot attempts 19pts, in line with the role players efficiency, Jonas 21pts on 12 shots.

I think part of the offensive issue is Green & the players are trying to balance everyone getting theirs... BI 14 shots, CJ 13, Jonas 12, Zion 11.... Looks like appeasement more than flow of the game.

Recognize the mismatch & ride the hot hand, stop forcing.. less ISO's, more ball movement & assists.

[Duke4life831]

The offense just runs better when its not going through CJ. I think one of the big strengths of BI showed last night. Even before he went on his tirade to end the game, he was still impactful. The offense was night and day when he was on the court compared to off and this was without him scoring.

I think the reason is BI just let the offense flow. Whether that was Jose going on his little run, or just Jonas constantly feeding when he was on the court. BI just let it happen. I know the assist numbers dont show it (even though there were at least 3-4 passes that led directly to foul shots). The offense just flowed.

I was critical of Willie last night (still am) but I do give him credit for getting Zion the ball in different situations instead of constant post up spots. Ive been harping on that all year, so that was good to see and Zion started to go off in the 4th.

Its only been 50 minutes of court time so far but the eye tests backs this up. BI and Jose work unbelievably well together. Right now when those two are playing together they have a Net Rating of +35. They just play so well off of each other.

[Whole Truth]

Somons got his **** blocked twice & got 4 FT's out of it, lol. Some nice momentum calls going Portlands way.

[Whole Truth]

Now Green has to blow a review on a charge called a block on Herb.

[Whole Truth]

Simons has reached NBA superstar status. Getting to the line for no reason. LMAO.

[Duke4life831]

This team is beyond frustrating to watch. I understand this isn’t a championship contending team or anything, but they also shouldn’t be struggling to be a .500 team either.

This team needs to go to a legit hierarchy when it comes to the offense. Every game Zion and BI need to put up 20 shots. Then whoever else has the hot hands that game can get their shots. Also if you’re not going to use Jonas, trade him to get a bug that you want to actually play.

Not going to lie, starting to think Willie Green might be the Mark Jackson of this team. Came in to a young team and got them to play hard, but also put a limit on their ceiling because he didn’t know how to properly use the talent on his roster.

[Whole Truth]

This team is beyond frustrating to watch. I understand this isn’t a championship contending team or anything, but they also shouldn’t be struggling to be a .500 team either.

This team needs to go to a legit hierarchy when it comes to the offense. Every game Zion and BI need to put up 20 shots. Then whoever else has the hot hands that game can get their shots. Also if you’re not going to use Jonas, trade him to get a bug that you want to actually play.

Not going to lie, starting to think Willie Green might be the Mark Jackson of this team. Came in to a young team and got them to play hard, but also put a limit on their ceiling because he didn’t know how to properly use the talent on his roster.

I have nothing good to say so I'm biting my tongue.

[Duke4life831]

This team is beyond frustrating to watch. I understand this isn’t a championship contending team or anything, but they also shouldn’t be struggling to be a .500 team either.

This team needs to go to a legit hierarchy when it comes to the offense. Every game Zion and BI need to put up 20 shots. Then whoever else has the hot hands that game can get their shots. Also if you’re not going to use Jonas, trade him to get a bug that you want to actually play.

Not going to lie, starting to think Willie Green might be the Mark Jackson of this team. Came in to a young team and got them to play hard, but also put a limit on their ceiling because he didn’t know how to properly use the talent on his roster.

I have nothing good to say so I'm biting my tongue.

Haha

I get BI had foul issues, but the dude still played 30 minutes and only got 12 shots. Zion had 12 points heading into the 4th… Jonas against a team that doesnt have a legit big only played 20 minutes, oh and the Pels couldn’t get a rebound to save their life in the 4th. Having a big that gobbles up boards could’ve been nice…

Again I totally get that this isn’t a championship level team yet, but that also doesn’t mean this roster isn’t being used correctly.

Good thing they used a top 10 pick on a guard. You’d think if you had a guard go on a 3 game stretch where he has 28 points on 12-41 shooting, that top 10 pick might get some legit minutes in that time. Nope 3 straight DNPs.

This is Mark Jackson all over again. I was watching GS a lot at that time. People were pumped because Mark got them to play hard every night and a bad franchise finally started to look solid. But after a couple years it was clear beyond motivating his guys to play hard, he had no clue what he was doing. Starting to sound familiar…

I can’t bite my tongue haha. The misuse of this roster is becoming laughable.