Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem?

[tsherkin]

My point is that Shaq's off-ball action is basically strictly related to offensive rebounding, he didn't create much more easy points off-ball than Kareem did.

And over how many games did you make that assessment? And were they in Miami, LA or Orlando? The answer will differ depending on his age and team.

I don't agree it's enough, but it is a strong argument for Shaq.

That's fine, I agree with you that between the two, there isn't a large separation and said as much earlier. I have a large amount of respect for Kareem. These guys are stylistically opposite one another, but Kareem's skill definitely makes this a compelling argument no matter whom you ultimately select.

I just think that we need to be very specific about what we're talking about, because most people don't share your definition of "post game" and when you say that Shaq is a better post player, we need to specify what we're talking about. In terms of the casual understanding of "post game", Kareem crushes Shaq.

That's why I went out of my way to explain such. I also labor against the basic premise that "post play" should be defined as "post isolation," because then that breeds guys like Al Jefferson, Zach Randolph and Chris Kaman.... all of whom could have been much better if they worked on more than just iso-post. I used to coach post guys, and was always yelling at them that there was more to their role than back-down isolations. xD

[70sFan]

And over how many games did you make that assessment? And were they in Miami, LA or Orlando? The answer will differ depending on his age and team.

38 games, all of them from 1999/00 season.

That's fine, I agree with you that between the two, there isn't a large separation and said as much earlier. I have a large amount of respect for Kareem. These guys are stylistically opposite one another, but Kareem's skill definitely makes this a compelling argument no matter whom you ultimately select.

Yeah, as long as we respect both legends I am fine with that

That's why I went out of my way to explain such. I also labor against the basic premise that "post play" should be defined as "post isolation," because then that breeds guys like Al Jefferson, Zach Randolph and Chris Kaman.... all of whom could have been much better if they worked on more than just iso-post. I used to coach post guys, and was always yelling at them that there was more to their role than back-down isolations. xD

I agree, post game is 90% off-ball. With that said, I wouldn't call all of the inside game as "post game", to me post game is a specific part of overall inside game.

[tsherkin]

38 games, all of them from 1999/00 season.

Okay, so a good sample from a peak season when he was only 27 but had also added a bunch of weight compared to his Orlando days. I grant you Shaq didn't do a lot of cutting from above the foul line except in the secondary, but he moved well enough around penetration and jockeying for ORBS that he wasn't always fixed in place on the low left block until much later in his career.

Yeah, as long as we respect both legends I am fine with that

I'm a very large Kareem fan

I agree, post game is 90% off-ball. With that said, I wouldn't call all of the inside game as "post game", to me post game is a specific part of overall inside game.

IMHO, it's all part of utilizing the post. Isolation fixation is a big problem with lots of players, on the wing and inside. If you look at someone like Dantley, you see how most of his scoring is done before he gets the ball. And then post/re-post, using the threat of the pass and going the other way (or making the pass), etc. All of it is part of the package of being a post player, and to mean constitutes post play.

That, of course, is explicitly a subjective definition, I realize.

[70sFan]

Okay, so a good sample from a peak season when he was only 27 but had also added a bunch of weight compared to his Orlando days. I grant you Shaq didn't do a lot of cutting from above the foul line except in the secondary, but he moved well enough around penetration and jockeying for ORBS that he wasn't always fixed in place on the low left block until much later in his career.

Oh definitely, Shaq was very active post player. Very few players could compete with him in that regard - Hakeem and Wilt certainly couldn't for example. Kareem was very good in this regard as well, probably not as good as Shaq but good enough to make the gap unnoticeable without going deep into tracking possessions.

I'm a very large Kareem fan

You just know what good basketball is all about

IMHO, it's all part of utilizing the post. Isolation fixation is a big problem with lots of players, on the wing and inside. If you look at someone like Dantley, you see how most of his scoring is done before he gets the ball. And then post/re-post, using the threat of the pass and going the other way (or making the pass), etc. All of it is part of the package of being a post player, and to mean constitutes post play.

That, of course, is explicitly a subjective definition, I realize.

No disagreement, most players don't really understand what it takes to be elite post player. Dantley is a great mention, but for those unfamiliar with him, you can always take a look at McHale - Kevin did basically all his work without the ball. People often remember his fancy pump fakes, but 95% of his points were scored off the catch (this is not my tracking number actually )

[tsherkin]

Oh definitely, Shaq was very active post player. Very few players could compete with him in that regard - Hakeem and Wilt certainly couldn't for example. Kareem was very good in this regard as well, probably not as good as Shaq but good enough to make the gap unnoticeable without going deep into tracking possessions.

I'd love to see charting on one of his 29 ppg Orlando seasons to see how my memory lines up with actual gameplay, for sure. I remember his overall activity level dropping as he grew much north of 310 lbs.

You just know what good basketball is all about

Some players are just sublime to watch in action, and also very effective.

No disagreement, most players don't really understand what it takes to be elite post player. Dantley is a great mention, but for those unfamiliar with him, you can always take a look at McHale - Kevin did basically all his work without the ball. People often remember his fancy pump fakes, but 95% of his points were scored off the catch (this is not my tracking number actually )

McHale was great. Like Dantley, not much use as far as creating for others but he was always heads-up on a DRB and he knew his role, filled it very wheel. That wheeling-into-the-lane fadeaway with his 600-foot long Gumby arms maneuver was absurdly effective. Great footwork, fantastic touch, excellent finisher. Moved very well off-ball.

[70sFan]

Oh definitely, Shaq was very active post player. Very few players could compete with him in that regard - Hakeem and Wilt certainly couldn't for example. Kareem was very good in this regard as well, probably not as good as Shaq but good enough to make the gap unnoticeable without going deep into tracking possessions.

I'd love to see charting on one of his 29 ppg Orlando seasons to see how my memory lines up with actual gameplay, for sure. I remember his overall activity level dropping as he grew much north of 310 lbs.

Maybe I will do it at some point, but for now I'm working on Timmy Duncan.

[No-more-rings]

I know this may not add much to the discussion, but I feel like Shaq would throw Kareem around like a rag doll if they faced each other at their peaks lol.

[VanWest82]

I know this may not add much to the discussion, but I feel like Shaq would throw Kareem around like a rag doll if they faced each other at their peaks lol.

Lol yeah. I mean, Shaq would crucify Kareem one-on-one. Would Kareem have even made it to the 4th quarter without fouling out if he didn't have a bunch of help? It's not fair to compare guys from different eras. Few could handle Shaq. It's somehow forgotten that most teams had a Shaq defender on the roster during his prime just for that fact, especially in the west. 80s Lakers would've done the same. Shaq is a perfect example why we need to compare guys against their own era.

[falcolombardi]

I know this may not add much to the discussion, but I feel like Shaq would throw Kareem around like a rag doll if they faced each other at their peaks lol.

Lol yeah. I mean, Shaq would crucify Kareem one-on-one. Would Kareem have even made it to the 4th quarter without fouling out if he didn't have a bunch of help? It's not fair to compare guys from different eras. Few could handle Shaq. It's somehow forgotten that most teams had a Shaq defender on the roster during his prime just for that fact, especially in the west. 80s Lakers would've done the same. Shaq is a perfect example why we need to compare guys against their own era.

But teams wont guard shaq on an island, nor will rivals do it with kareem either

if shaq guarded kareem straight up he would be a prop for kareem baskets too the same way bill walton was in 77.

This is a guy that bill freaking walton would go out of his way to front at the expense of leaving the paint open just to prevent him from catching the ball and then kareem would just easily burn him with a cut for a lob/pass or a quick repost on the other block

This idea of shaq the player who was an auto dunk every post up unless hard doubled/tripled is also a bit overblown imo

[VanWest82]

I know this may not add much to the discussion, but I feel like Shaq would throw Kareem around like a rag doll if they faced each other at their peaks lol.

Lol yeah. I mean, Shaq would crucify Kareem one-on-one. Would Kareem have even made it to the 4th quarter without fouling out if he didn't have a bunch of help? It's not fair to compare guys from different eras. Few could handle Shaq. It's somehow forgotten that most teams had a Shaq defender on the roster during his prime just for that fact, especially in the west. 80s Lakers would've done the same. Shaq is a perfect example why we need to compare guys against their own era.

But teams wont guard shaq on an island, nor will rivals do it with kareem either

if shaq guarded kareem straight up he would be a prop for kareem baskets too the same way bill walton was in 77.

This is a guy that bill freaking walton would go out of his way to front at the expense of leaving the paint open just to prevent him from catching the ball and then kareem would just easily burn him with a cut for a lob/pass or a quick repost on the other block

This idea of shaq the player who was an auto dunk every post up unless hard doubled/tripled is also a bit overblown imo

Shaq would've had his own issues for sure with Kareem though I suspect he would've bullied him off the block for a lot of catches away from the basket. But the point is he would've had Kareem in foul trouble fairly quick. If you're saying they would've just doubled then sure...surely better ppp on that. Shaq might've given up some buckets but he wouldn't have needed a double.

[falcolombardi]

Lol yeah. I mean, Shaq would crucify Kareem one-on-one. Would Kareem have even made it to the 4th quarter without fouling out if he didn't have a bunch of help? It's not fair to compare guys from different eras. Few could handle Shaq. It's somehow forgotten that most teams had a Shaq defender on the roster during his prime just for that fact, especially in the west. 80s Lakers would've done the same. Shaq is a perfect example why we need to compare guys against their own era.

But teams wont guard shaq on an island, nor will rivals do it with kareem either

if shaq guarded kareem straight up he would be a prop for kareem baskets too the same way bill walton was in 77.

This is a guy that bill freaking walton would go out of his way to front at the expense of leaving the paint open just to prevent him from catching the ball and then kareem would just easily burn him with a cut for a lob/pass or a quick repost on the other block

This idea of shaq the player who was an auto dunk every post up unless hard doubled/tripled is also a bit overblown imo

Shaq would've had his own issues for sure with Kareem though I suspect he would've bullied him off the block for a lot of catches away from the basket. But the point is he would've had Kareem in foul trouble fairly quick. If you're saying they would've just doubled then sure...surely better ppp on that. Shaq might've given up some buckets but he wouldn't have needed a double.

If bill walton needed doubles against kareem then you can bet your peanut farm shaq would need doubles against kareem

[VanWest82]

But teams wont guard shaq on an island, nor will rivals do it with kareem either

if shaq guarded kareem straight up he would be a prop for kareem baskets too the same way bill walton was in 77.

This is a guy that bill freaking walton would go out of his way to front at the expense of leaving the paint open just to prevent him from catching the ball and then kareem would just easily burn him with a cut for a lob/pass or a quick repost on the other block

This idea of shaq the player who was an auto dunk every post up unless hard doubled/tripled is also a bit overblown imo

Shaq would've had his own issues for sure with Kareem though I suspect he would've bullied him off the block for a lot of catches away from the basket. But the point is he would've had Kareem in foul trouble fairly quick. If you're saying they would've just doubled then sure...surely better ppp on that. Shaq might've given up some buckets but he wouldn't have needed a double.

If bill walton needed doubles against kareem then you can bet your peanut farm shaq would need doubles against kareem

If Tim Duncan needed doubles against Shaq then you can bet your California Zinfandel orchard that Kareem would need doubles upon doubles against Shaq.

[70sFan]

Lol yeah. I mean, Shaq would crucify Kareem one-on-one. Would Kareem have even made it to the 4th quarter without fouling out if he didn't have a bunch of help? It's not fair to compare guys from different eras. Few could handle Shaq. It's somehow forgotten that most teams had a Shaq defender on the roster during his prime just for that fact, especially in the west. 80s Lakers would've done the same. Shaq is a perfect example why we need to compare guys against their own era.

But teams wont guard shaq on an island, nor will rivals do it with kareem either

if shaq guarded kareem straight up he would be a prop for kareem baskets too the same way bill walton was in 77.

This is a guy that bill freaking walton would go out of his way to front at the expense of leaving the paint open just to prevent him from catching the ball and then kareem would just easily burn him with a cut for a lob/pass or a quick repost on the other block

This idea of shaq the player who was an auto dunk every post up unless hard doubled/tripled is also a bit overblown imo

Shaq would've had his own issues for sure with Kareem though I suspect he would've bullied him off the block for a lot of catches away from the basket. But the point is he would've had Kareem in foul trouble fairly quick. If you're saying they would've just doubled then sure...surely better ppp on that. Shaq might've given up some buckets but he wouldn't have needed a double.

That's not how Shaq defended post players though, he didn't really bully his opponents as far as possible. In fact, he usually gave opponents time and space to establish position, then he relied on his size to intimidate them. I doubt it would work well against Kareem.

[70sFan]

I know this may not add much to the discussion, but I feel like Shaq would throw Kareem around like a rag doll if they faced each other at their peaks lol.

Not any more than someone like Hakeem, who did quite well. Kareem wasn't a perfect defender against Shaq, but people often underestimate his size and strength.

[70sFan]

This idea of shaq the player who was an auto dunk every post up unless hard doubled/tripled is also a bit overblown imo

"A bit" is an understatement... No player can generate dunks on consistent basis one on one against strong defender. Shaq was amazing, but he was a human after all.

[No-more-rings]

I know this may not add much to the discussion, but I feel like Shaq would throw Kareem around like a rag doll if they faced each other at their peaks lol.

Not any more than someone like Hakeem, who did quite well. Kareem wasn't a perfect defender against Shaq, but people often underestimate his size and strength.

I mean if anything you overstate his size and strength. He was rather lanky, and from the tape i’ve watched he doesn’t strike me as particularly strong either. He looked underwhelming in those few finals he went against Moses.

That skinny frame would have no hope of keeping Shaq out of the post.

[70sFan]

I know this may not add much to the discussion, but I feel like Shaq would throw Kareem around like a rag doll if they faced each other at their peaks lol.

Not any more than someone like Hakeem, who did quite well. Kareem wasn't a perfect defender against Shaq, but people often underestimate his size and strength.

I mean if anything you overstate his size and strength. He was rather lanky, and from the tape i’ve watched he doesn’t strike me as particularly strong either. He looked underwhelming in those few finals he went against Moses.

That skinny frame would have no hope of keeping Shaq out of the post.

Kareem was 37 in 1983 finals, I think it would be better to look at his physical profile when he was 6 years younger.

Kareem was 250 lbs in his peak and he had strong legs, that's not a skinny frame at all.

[No-more-rings]

Not any more than someone like Hakeem, who did quite well. Kareem wasn't a perfect defender against Shaq, but people often underestimate his size and strength.

I mean if anything you overstate his size and strength. He was rather lanky, and from the tape i’ve watched he doesn’t strike me as particularly strong either. He looked underwhelming in those few finals he went against Moses.

That skinny frame would have no hope of keeping Shaq out of the post.

Kareem was 37 in 1983 finals, I think it would be better to look at his physical profile when he was 6 years younger.

Kareem was 250 lbs in his peak and he had strong legs, that's not a skinny frame at all.

I doubt Kareem was ever that heavy, but even if I give him that Shaq was around 325 or so in 2000/2001. He had a stronger upper and lower body. Kareem would get pushed around pretty easily unfortunately. Not heavy enough, strong enough or athletic enough to defend big diesel.

[70sFan]

I mean if anything you overstate his size and strength. He was rather lanky, and from the tape i’ve watched he doesn’t strike me as particularly strong either. He looked underwhelming in those few finals he went against Moses.

That skinny frame would have no hope of keeping Shaq out of the post.

Kareem was 37 in 1983 finals, I think it would be better to look at his physical profile when he was 6 years younger.

Kareem was 250 lbs in his peak and he had strong legs, that's not a skinny frame at all.

I doubt Kareem was ever that heavy, but even if I give him that Shaq was around 325 or so in 2000/2001. He had a stronger upper and lower body. Kareem would get pushed around pretty easily unfortunately. Not heavy enough, strong enough or athletic enough to defend big diesel.

Kareem reached 267 lbs in the mid 1980s. I don't think you realize how gigantic he truly was. We're talking about legit 7'2 man who was a legit athlete. You're acting like he's Bol Bol or something, but he was a well proportioned man.

Of course Shaq was bigger and stronger, but let's not overreact. Kareem was bigger and stronger than someone like Mutombo.

[capfan33]

Kareem was 37 in 1983 finals, I think it would be better to look at his physical profile when he was 6 years younger.

Kareem was 250 lbs in his peak and he had strong legs, that's not a skinny frame at all.

I doubt Kareem was ever that heavy, but even if I give him that Shaq was around 325 or so in 2000/2001. He had a stronger upper and lower body. Kareem would get pushed around pretty easily unfortunately. Not heavy enough, strong enough or athletic enough to defend big diesel.

Kareem reached 267 lbs in the mid 1980s. I don't think you realize how gigantic he truly was. We're talking about legit 7'2 man who was a legit athlete. You're acting like he's Bol Bol or something, but he was a well proportioned man.

Of course Shaq was bigger and stronger, but let's not overreact. Kareem was bigger and stronger than someone like Mutombo.

A couple of things on this, If I remember correctly Kareem stepped on a scale in 1980 and was 267. He was actually above 280 by the end of his career, albeit he was really old at this point so I'm not sure how relevant that is. In 1974 he got up to around 245-250 so during his Laker's prime he was roughly 250-270. He was an excellent athlete with an ideal finesse build, he never suffered a major (non-self-inflicted injury) in 20 seasons, which is essentially unheard of. Great core strength specifically, which is underrated.

With that being said, yea I don't think Kareem stands much of a chance 1on1 against Shaq, his post-defense was one of the few parts of his game that left something to be desired. I think Shaq purely 1on1 isn't a great matchup for Kareem, much in the same way Hakeem didn't have a chance in hell of guarding Kareem 1on1, matchups can be weird sometimes.