Around The League: 2021-2022 Season 2.0

[Negrodamus]

You can't really compare Duren to Bam in college because Bam was given explicit orders to be in the post and rebound. Meanwhile, Penny likely gives his guys more freedom to be playmakers.

Look at Anthony Davis (7.5 AST% at Kentucky).

[76ciology]

In my viewpoint of the sport, bigs only add value once they develop an offensive trait of either shooting threes or becoming a playmaker.

Of all these bigs mentioned, I think Walker Kessler is the furthest away from doing either of those two things.

I still think he's the best shotblocker I've ever seen play basketball (said that during the college year last year), but if he just rebounds and blocks shots, there's only so much value he can actually provide.

Have you considered the value of a finisher at the dunker spot threat? That’s almost like a 1.2-1.4ppp shot

Then as a roll guy, that roll is basically an illegal screen if you do know how to properly do it (watch Sabonis). And that could collapse the defense

Kessler possibly can be an elite lob threat, elite finisher at the dunker spot, elite roll man and even has been great at transition.

Bigs does not really have to create on offense. I remember those Steven Adams vs Embiid games when Adams would score 25pts on just being in the flow of the game while Embiid was getting his 25pts by taking heavily challenged shots. If the big has a talented guard, just being an elite finisher around the rim and an elite roll man is already a big plus on offense

The problem with bigs nowadays is they all want to be Embiid and Jokic to get their max salary. And if these bigs are not good enough (man.. to be a good shot creating scoring big is like being a great shot creating wing) they would create mayhem on your offense.

They would be slow down the pace
They would turn the ball over a lot
They would take a lot of low ppp post possessions
They would take usage away from game favored guards

This was IMO why the AD-DMC frontcourt didnt work. They can be dominant all they want but against a perimeter scoring power of the GSW or PTB, they just can’t match the scoring battle.

Another thing is if bigs are doing too much on offense, its very likely that you won’t get enough energy to play great defense for full 48 for the entire 82 games and 16-28 playoff games. Think about Embiid.

what you’ll end up is having to build certain type of things just to cater to your big that requires you to have more talented or more unique players than other teams.

Bam is all good. But if Heat has CP3, the Heat’s offense will be a lot better and Bam’s playmaking wont be as valued.

Another example is Ben Simmons.

[Kobblehead]

I still like Mark Williams and Christian Koloko better than the rest of the non-top centers in this draft. Mark is killing the g league and will eventually become at least a very good 2-way center in this league. Incredibly huge.

I don't get why the Hornets are playing Nick Richards 18+ mpg. Feels like that role should be Mark Williams' right from the start. He's already 21, he should be playing.

[Kobblehead]

You can't really compare Duren to Bam in college because Bam was given explicit orders to be in the post and rebound. Meanwhile, Penny likely gives his guys more freedom to be playmakers.

Look at Anthony Davis (7.5 AST% at Kentucky).

It took Brow until year 3 in the NBA to even crack double digit assist percentage. Seems like he just wasn't much of a playmaker at the start either. Had to develop it.

[76ciology]

I still like Mark Williams and Christian Koloko better than the rest of the non-top centers in this draft. Mark is killing the g league and will eventually become at least a very good 2-way center in this league. Incredibly huge.

I don't get why the Hornets are playing Nick Richards 18+ mpg. Feels like that role should be Mark Williams' right from the start. He's already 21, he should be playing.

Nick Richards and Jericho Sims are also good mobile and athletic bigs

[Negrodamus]

You can't really compare Duren to Bam in college because Bam was given explicit orders to be in the post and rebound. Meanwhile, Penny likely gives his guys more freedom to be playmakers.

Look at Anthony Davis (7.5 AST% at Kentucky).

It took Brow until year 3 in the NBA to even crack double digit assist percentage. Seems like he just wasn't much of a playmaker at the start either. Had to develop it.

Definitely true, but I still think there's credence to the point. I mean, Devin Booker was a spot shooter for Kentucky. The only times a prospect truly gets to show off their full ability is when the other blue chip recruits lay an egg and Cal lets the cream rise to the top, a la SGA when Knox, Diallo, etc played like underperforming journeymen.

[Kobblehead]

Anthony Davis is actually kind of overrated from an all-time perspective, when you really think about it.

He's an elite defender and a good rebounder and he has point production. But he never shot threes and his career assist percentage is measly 11.9%.

He just doesn't measure up to guys like Garnett, Webber, and Duncan.

I think he's better than Bosh and Aldridge, but just as overrated as those guys in term of all-time lens.

I never gave Boogie the respect he deserved, but in hindsight and if both are healthy, I'd take Cousins over Davis.

[Negrodamus]

Nick Richards really exploded as a mid range shooter at UK. Seems he's finding a place for himself in the league. Him having a 7'4 wingspan at 6'11 while not being a beanpole is definitely encouraging.

[Kobblehead]

I still like Mark Williams and Christian Koloko better than the rest of the non-top centers in this draft. Mark is killing the g league and will eventually become at least a very good 2-way center in this league. Incredibly huge.

I don't get why the Hornets are playing Nick Richards 18+ mpg. Feels like that role should be Mark Williams' right from the start. He's already 21, he should be playing.

Nick Richards and Jericho Sims are also good mobile and athletic bigs

Why not play the guy you took in the lottery, though. He does all the same things Richards does but it more skilled on offense.

I get why Plumlee if playing heavy minutes, he's been really good for them. But Williams should be playing over Richards and there's very little they get out of the decision to forgo that.

[Jailblazers7]

It’s the danger of hiring Steve Clifford. He’s just a Thibs clone.

[youngcrev]

Anthony Davis is actually kind of overrated from an all-time perspective, when you really think about it.

He's an elite defender and a good rebounder and he has point production. But he never shot threes and his career assist percentage is measly 11.9%.

He just doesn't measure up to guys like Garnett, Webber, and Duncan.

I think he's better than Bosh and Aldridge, but just as overrated as those guys in term of all-time lens.

I never gave Boogie the respect he deserved, but in hindsight and if both are healthy, I'd take Cousins over Davis.

Can't see Boogie. Weak defensive center are such limiting factors for your team, and he ain't Jokic on offense.

Davis vs Webber is interesting to me. If it's to be the centerpiece/1st option of my team, I'd take Webber. I think he's a better player to run your offense through with his passing and ability to get his own shot. Give me AD if it's as a #2 to a dominant perimeter player though. Elite defense plus borderline elite roll man. Outside of Duncan and Garnett I don't know how many other PFs I'm taking over him given that parameter.

[Kobblehead]

Chris Webber: 20.7 ppg, 64.9% free throw, 14.6% rebounder, 20.2% assist, 2% steal, 2.7% block
Kevin Garnett: 17.8 ppg, 78.9% free throw, 17% rebounder, 19.3% assist, 1.9% steal, 3% block
Tim Duncan: 19 ppg, 69.6% free throw, 18% rebounder, 16.4% assist, 1.1% steal, 4.6% block
Anthony Davis: 24 ppg, 79.5% free throw, 16.4% rebounder, 11.9% assist, 2% steal, 5.6% block
Joel Embiid: 26.3 ppg, 81.2% free throw, 19.6% rebounder, 19.2% assist, 1.4% steal, 4.4% block
Shaquille O'Neal: 23.7 ppg, 52.7% free throw, 17.8% rebounder, 13.9% assist, 0.9% steal, 4.6% block
Karl-Anthony Towns: 23.1 ppg, 83.5% free throw, 18.3% rebounder, 15.8% assist, 1.1% steal, 3.4% block
Nikola Jokic: 19.8 ppg, 82.8% free throw, 18.9% rebounder, 34.3% assist, 1.9% steal, 2% block
DeMarcus Cousins: 19.6 ppg, 73.7% free throw, 19% rebounder, 17.9% assist, 2.2% steal, 3.1% block

If you put these in a spreadsheet and then sort by value for the various traits, Joel Embiid comes out among the leaders in most categories. Is Joel Embiid the best bigman in recent memory, no bias?

[Kobblehead]

Look at Boogie's defensive numbers, though. He was unathletic and grounded, but he was smart and he was a deflection beast. Between that and the playmaking he had in his prime years, I think he'd add way more to my squad than Davis could ever. It doesn't hurt that Boogie had the dog in him and Davis is a housecat.

[Kobblehead]

Davis is one of the best defensive players ever so I definitely want to make sure I don't disrespect him. But I just think his lack of playmaking in the totality of his career has hurt his actual value to his teams.

And that's kind of my theory that bigs only truly add value when they either are a playmaker or they shoot well.

[youngcrev]

Honestly, I don't even think KAT and Boogie belong in the conversation, just like Duncan and Shaq don't on the other end of the spectrum.

What about Dirk, Pau and Amare (Amare might be a stretch, but I'd take him over KAT/Boogie)?

Dirk/Jokic is an interesting one, although projecting out Jokic probably has him.

[youngcrev]

Davis is one of the best defensive players ever so I definitely want to make sure I don't disrespect him. But I just think his lack of playmaking in the totality of his career has hurt his actual value to his teams.

And that's kind of my theory that bigs only truly add value when they either are a playmaker or they shoot well.

He's such a good finisher playing off a creator though, so I guess it's a matter of how much importance you put on that for a position that's not typically responsible for it.

Like, he's probably the best teammate Lebron has had in terms of actually complimenting him on the court, even if you'd take Wade over him in general.

[Negrodamus]

Boogie was ruined by the beginning of his career. Had the fire and talent, but was allowed to do whatever he wanted all the time. Ironically, the best place for him to land would have been us. Had the vets and a need to replace Brand at a certain point. Would have been an interesting situation with him and Jrue.

[Kobblehead]

Just my personal opinions on bigs. Finishing assists, rebounding, and blocking shots are expected traits out of the position. Guys that do what they're supposed to do and then add scoring are allstars. But the true greats have added playmaking ability, as well.

[Kobblehead]

Dirk and Pau are definitely ones in the conversation. I just didn't think to add them to the list.

I don't really rate Amare at that level. Substandard defensively, mediocre on the glass, and garbage playmaker. Put him in that LMA and Bosh tier.

[Kobblehead]

Boogie was ruined by the beginning of his career. Had the fire and talent, but was allowed to do whatever he wanted all the time. Ironically, the best place for him to land would have been us. Had the vets and a need to replace Brand at a certain point. Would have been an interesting situation with him and Jrue.

I think we would have needed Hinkie/Brown instead of Thorn/Collins to make it work with Cousins. Cousins and Collins likely wouldn't have been on speaking terms by month two of the season and Thorn would have been so disgusted that he probably would have traded him by the deadline of his rookie year.