If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently

basketballRob · Post #281 » by **basketballRob** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:12 pm

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/franz-wagner-stats-last-21-games

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Magic_Johnny12 · Post #282 » by **Magic_Johnny12** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:41 pm

I’m going to try my best to let bias aside.

1A - Evan Mobley (dependent on team picking/needs)
1B - Franz Wagner (dependent on team picking/needs)

2 - Cade Cunningham

3 - Jalen Green

4 - Jalen Suggs

5A - Scottie Barnes (dependent on team picking/needs)
5B - Josh Giddey (dependent on team picking/needs)

VFX · Post #283 » by **VFX** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:56 pm

This thread got interesting.

OrlMagic05 · Post #284 » by **OrlMagic05** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:58 pm

Magic_Johnny12 wrote:I’m going to try my best to let bias aside.

1A - Evan Mobley (dependent on team picking/needs)
1B - Franz Wagner (dependent on team picking/needs)

2 - Cade Cunningham

3 - Jalen Green

4 - Jalen Suggs

5A - Scottie Barnes (dependent on team picking/needs)
5B - Josh Giddey (dependent on team picking/needs)

Suggs hasn't shown enough to be ahead of Giddy and Barnes.

ocelot17 · Post #285 » by **ocelot17** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:06 pm

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=_1W5u3snbCQb_atRKTGyCQ

HotelVitale · Post #286 » by **HotelVitale** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:18 pm

CptCrunch wrote:A thread like this just reveals the stephews on this forum. Anyone placing Barnes or Cade high probably reads more ESPN than watch basketball , and probably has never played basketball at any level.

Anyone who plays basketball and watches Cade Cunningham and doesn't think he's a really impressive talent is probably lying about one of those two things. No way to miss how good he is at controlling the game and space. That's an extremely rare and hard thing to do and people who play ball should understand that better than even big fans/watchers.

He might not end up a great player because of inefficient shooting, but your comment doesn't have the air of 'Cade's awesome but he needs to hit more jumpers or he can't be great.' It has the air of 'Cade's an overrated phony' and I'm kinda calling BS on that.

jasonxxx102 · Post #287 » by **jasonxxx102** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:18 pm

Green a career 42% from the field "BUT HE SCORED 30 A FEW TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!"

It's like clockwork every 10th game when he gets hot from the field people post a bunch about him and then disappear for the next 10 games

K_chile22 · Post #288 » by **K_chile22** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:23 pm

jasonxxx102 wrote:Green a career 42% from the field "BUT HE SCORED 30 A FEW TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!"

It's like clockwork every 10th game when he gets hot from the field people post a bunch about him and then disappear for the next 10 games

He takes a ton of 3s which drags down his FG% because FG% is bad, his TS% hasn't been great but it's pretty solid compared to others his age that have any kind of high usage role. Franz is an outlier with his efficiency at his age. Among the top 10 guys who have any kind of significant usage only Mobley and Franz have been more efficient and mobley gets to play alot as a play finisher since he's a big so his TS should be higher than Green's

Magic_Johnny12 · Post #289 » by **Magic_Johnny12** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:23 pm

ocelot17 wrote:

Read on Twitter
?s=46&t=_1W5u3snbCQb_atRKTGyCQ

Now show his efficiency stats.

OrlMagic05 · Post #290 » by **OrlMagic05** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:26 pm

ocelot17 wrote:

Read on Twitter
?s=46&t=_1W5u3snbCQb_atRKTGyCQ

His usage rate is also the highest at 28%, Shot attempts the highest at 18FGA, shoots 42%FG all to only average 1.8 more PPG.

Post #291 » by **Duffman100** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:29 pm

Wagner is looking sick. Love that kid.

K_chile22 · Post #292 » by **K_chile22** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:33 pm

OrlMagic05 wrote:
ocelot17 wrote:

Read on Twitter
?s=46&t=_1W5u3snbCQb_atRKTGyCQ

His usage rate is also the highest at 28%, Shot attempts the highest at 18FGA, shoots 42%FG all to only average only 1.8 more PPG.

And yet Franz is the only guy mentioned here that's more efficient than him despite having really high usage. Obviously Franz has been better this year, his efficiency at his usage and age is insanely impressive, but Green has been impressive in his own right.

People forget that it's harder to be efficient the higher your usage is. Idk why Green is the only one getting hammered for his efficiency so much when Barnes, Cade and Giddey are much worse in that regard, 2/3 on lower usage which generally means less responsibility. Green's efficiency is totally fine given the context as a high usage skinny 20 year old super athletic scoring guard on a bad team with no PG. If he's still at 54% TS in two or three years then yeah that's a problem

jasonxxx102 · Post #293 » by **jasonxxx102** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:34 pm

Magic_Johnny12 wrote:
ocelot17 wrote:

Read on Twitter
?s=46&t=_1W5u3snbCQb_atRKTGyCQ

Now show his efficiency stats.

Nah, raw box is way sexier. Who cares that he put up 25 shots to get that 30 :lol:

jasonxxx102 · Post #294 » by **jasonxxx102** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:35 pm

K_chile22 wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:
ocelot17 wrote:

Read on Twitter
?s=46&t=_1W5u3snbCQb_atRKTGyCQ

His usage rate is also the highest at 28%, Shot attempts the highest at 18FGA, shoots 42%FG all to only average only 1.8 more PPG.
And yet Franz is the only guy mentioned here that's more efficient than him despite having really high usage. Obviously Franz has been better this year, his efficiency at his usage and age is insanely impressive, but Green has been impressive in his own right.

People forget that it's harder to be efficient the higher your usage is. Idk why Green is the only one getting hammered for his efficiency so much when Barnes, Cade and Giddey are much worse in that regard, 2/3 on lower usage which generally means less responsibility. Green's efficiency is totally fine given the context as a high usage skinny 20 year old super athletic scoring guard on a bad team with no PG. If he's still at 54% TS in two or three years then yeah that's a problem

because they do other things, Scottie can defend and playmake, Cade is a great playmaker and shot creator, same with Giddey.

Green does absolutely nothing but score and is one of the worst defensive players in the league

K_chile22 · Post #295 » by **K_chile22** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:38 pm

jasonxxx102 wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:

His usage rate is also the highest at 28%, Shot attempts the highest at 18FGA, shoots 42%FG all to only average only 1.8 more PPG.
And yet Franz is the only guy mentioned here that's more efficient than him despite having really high usage. Obviously Franz has been better this year, his efficiency at his usage and age is insanely impressive, but Green has been impressive in his own right.

People forget that it's harder to be efficient the higher your usage is. Idk why Green is the only one getting hammered for his efficiency so much when Barnes, Cade and Giddey are much worse in that regard, 2/3 on lower usage which generally means less responsibility. Green's efficiency is totally fine given the context as a high usage skinny 20 year old super athletic scoring guard on a bad team with no PG. If he's still at 54% TS in two or three years then yeah that's a problem

because they do other things, Scottie can defend and playmake, Cade is a great playmaker and shot creator, same with Giddey.

Green does absolutely nothing but score and is one of the worst defensive players in the league

Green has the same assist rate and tov rate as Franz, right behind Barnes in assist rate but has a better Tov rate, and Barnes is not a good defender right now either despite college rep.

Giddey can only play make and do nothing else rn which is problematic in itself

Green's taken a bit of a playmaking leap this year

threethehardway · Post #296 » by **threethehardway** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:41 pm

Cade Cunningham shouldn't have been the number 1 pick unless you think he can become one of the best shooters in the world.

His floor game and size was overrated from the beginning.

His inability to put pressure on the rim and lack of scoring aggression means he can't be effective as a tip of the spear primary ball handler.

He would be better off playing next to a tip of the spear primary ball handler and learning how to come off screens, handoffs and etc as a movement shooter.

If I was coaching Cade, he would have to watch a lot of Ray Allen and Reggie Miller and he wouldn't be allowed to handle the ball as much as he does.

I also would have him watch a lot DeMar DeRozan and middle career Kobe so he can learn how to get his shot off.

His shooting percentages are crap because he's taking a lot of tough 3 pointers and having to drive to the rim from the 3 point line.

He's playing out of position because he's been the best ball handler on every team he's been on and coaches don't care about his development and stick him at PG.

Detroit isn't winning crap anyway and if Casey cared about him, he would play off ball as much as possible, doing traditional SG things.

Only way Cade can become a winning player is learning how to play SG.

QingJames · Post #297 » by **QingJames** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:45 pm

K_chile22 wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:And yet Franz is the only guy mentioned here that's more efficient than him despite having really high usage. Obviously Franz has been better this year, his efficiency at his usage and age is insanely impressive, but Green has been impressive in his own right.

People forget that it's harder to be efficient the higher your usage is. Idk why Green is the only one getting hammered for his efficiency so much when Barnes, Cade and Giddey are much worse in that regard, 2/3 on lower usage which generally means less responsibility. Green's efficiency is totally fine given the context as a high usage skinny 20 year old super athletic scoring guard on a bad team with no PG. If he's still at 54% TS in two or three years then yeah that's a problem

because they do other things, Scottie can defend and playmake, Cade is a great playmaker and shot creator, same with Giddey.

Green does absolutely nothing but score and is one of the worst defensive players in the league
Green has the same assist rate and tov rate as Franz, right behind Barnes in assist rate but has a better Tov rate, and Barnes is not a good defender right now either despite college rep.

Giddey can only play make and do nothing else rn which is problematic in itself

Green's taken a bit of a playmaking leap this year

Barnes' defense hasn't been good this year for sure, but he looks like prime Kawhi Leonard out there compared to Green's defense.

Son Goku 25 · Post #298 » by **Son Goku 25** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:49 pm

Way too early to decide

OrlMagic05 · Post #299 » by **OrlMagic05** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:51 pm

Son Goku 25 wrote:Way too early to decide

Not too early to have Franz in this convo as 1a/1b.

Farhan0311 · Post #300 » by **Farhan0311** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 4:05 pm

QingJames wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
because they do other things, Scottie can defend and playmake, Cade is a great playmaker and shot creator, same with Giddey.

Green does absolutely nothing but score and is one of the worst defensive players in the league
Green has the same assist rate and tov rate as Franz, right behind Barnes in assist rate but has a better Tov rate, and Barnes is not a good defender right now either despite college rep.

Giddey can only play make and do nothing else rn which is problematic in itself

Green's taken a bit of a playmaking leap this year

Barnes' defense hasn't been good this year for sure, but he looks like prime Kawhi Leonard out there compared to Green's defense.

Not really.

And honestly they are good and bad for the exact opposite reasons. Green can keep guards in front him consistently on one on one defense at the perimeter. He horrible when he gets switched onto a big. Barnes has strength to handle bigs in paint. Guards blow by him easily though.