If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently

[toooskies]

Jalen Green is still well within the range of being more like Collin Sexton than Kobe Bryant.

[Farhan0311]

Jalen Green is still well within the range of being more like Collin Sexton than Kobe Bryant.

That is such a massive gap lol. That could mean anything.

[toooskies]

Jalen Green is still well within the range of being more like Collin Sexton than Kobe Bryant.

That is such a massive gap lol. That could mean anything.

You are correct, which is why I need to see more out of Jalen Green than scoring to think he'd be worth taking over Cade or Barnes or Mobley. Especially if that scoring is inefficient.

[hardenASG13]

30ppg isn't what it used to be. The top 6-7 scorers are right there, which is a trend I see continuing. And I see Green as having the potential to be a top scorer in the league. Thus would take him over Franz in a redraft.

Green just gets the ball a little more than Franz currently. European players take a little longer to be selfish.

Green 27.9 usage and 30.5 per 100 possessions TS 537
Franz 25.0 usage and 29.1 per 100 possessions Franz TS 596

Franz looks like he is the better scorer currently.


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Suggestion.


Look at their home and road splits. And then look at how many home games each team has played.


Now come back and tell me you'd be confident those efficiency numbers are going to stay somewhat the same by the end of the season. Keep in mind their efficiency numbers last season when they actually played a full one which has even amount of road and home games played. That's probably more indicative of how far apart they will be by the end of the season.

Oh. I'm not using those numbers for my opinion, just an eye test. Green has the look of a star, where as Franz doesn't in my opinion. I really like Franz as a number 2 though. I guess we'll never agree and have to see what happens.

[Farhan0311]

Jalen Green is still well within the range of being more like Collin Sexton than Kobe Bryant.

That is such a massive gap lol. That could mean anything.

You are correct, which is why I need to see more out of Jalen Green than scoring to think he'd be worth taking over Cade or Barnes or Mobley. Especially if that scoring is inefficient.

Cade and Barnes are even more inefficient. Mobley like scores 75% of his buckets off assists.

[toooskies]

That is such a massive gap lol. That could mean anything.

You are correct, which is why I need to see more out of Jalen Green than scoring to think he'd be worth taking over Cade or Barnes or Mobley. Especially if that scoring is inefficient.

Cade and Barnes are even more inefficient. Mobley like scores 75% of his buckets off assists.

The thing that separates Barnes and Cade from Green is, they do other things on the court well. Cade is a PG in a wing's body. Barnes is an everything in a big wing's body. Does Green do anything but score?

Mobley had a chance to win titles being a KG/Duncan-style defensive big who is also a 1b on offense-- more like Boston KG or mid-to-late career Duncan rather than Minnesota MVP KG or early Duncan.

Again, being a good scorer is important but not sufficient to lead your team to a title. Scoring but not doing much else makes you Collin Sexton, or Brad Beal, or Zach LaVine.

[basketballRob]

Green just gets the ball a little more than Franz currently. European players take a little longer to be selfish.

Green 27.9 usage and 30.5 per 100 possessions TS 537
Franz 25.0 usage and 29.1 per 100 possessions Franz TS 596

Franz looks like he is the better scorer currently.


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Suggestion.


Look at their home and road splits. And then look at how many home games each team has played.


Now come back and tell me you'd be confident those efficiency numbers are going to stay somewhat the same by the end of the season. Keep in mind their efficiency numbers last season when they actually played a full one which has even amount of road and home games played. That's probably more indicative of how far apart they will be by the end of the season.

Oh. I'm not using those numbers for my opinion, just an eye test. Green has the look of a star, where as Franz doesn't in my opinion. I really like Franz as a number 2 though. I guess we'll never agree and have to see what happens.

Currently, Franz is better tho.

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[tooler]

Are you guys ready?

[hardenASG13]

Suggestion.


Look at their home and road splits. And then look at how many home games each team has played.


Now come back and tell me you'd be confident those efficiency numbers are going to stay somewhat the same by the end of the season. Keep in mind their efficiency numbers last season when they actually played a full one which has even amount of road and home games played. That's probably more indicative of how far apart they will be by the end of the season.

Oh. I'm not using those numbers for my opinion, just an eye test. Green has the look of a star, where as Franz doesn't in my opinion. I really like Franz as a number 2 though. I guess we'll never agree and have to see what happens.

Currently, Franz is better tho.

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This thread is about who would you draft in a redraft. It's looking at long term potential. Check out a few games of Green, you should see it. We aren't talking anything about their current percentages, raptor ratings or whatever metric you'd like to use. Green looks like he has a higher ceiling when you watch him play. He can do stuff very few guys can do. And again, I like Franzs game alot.

[thelead]

Oh. I'm not using those numbers for my opinion, just an eye test. Green has the look of a star, where as Franz doesn't in my opinion. I really like Franz as a number 2 though. I guess we'll never agree and have to see what happens.

Currently, Franz is better tho.

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This thread is about who would you draft in a redraft. It's looking at long term potential. Check out a few games of Green, you should see it. We aren't talking anything about their current percentages, raptor ratings or whatever metric you'd like to use. Green looks like he has a higher ceiling when you watch him play. He can do stuff very few guys can do. And again, I like Franzs game alot.

I'm a HUGE Green fan but he has some big question marks to become the player I hoped he would one day become: playmaking, and more importantly, defense. He has a ways to go on both but he has shown flashes.

[Farhan0311]

You are correct, which is why I need to see more out of Jalen Green than scoring to think he'd be worth taking over Cade or Barnes or Mobley. Especially if that scoring is inefficient.

Cade and Barnes are even more inefficient. Mobley like scores 75% of his buckets off assists.

The thing that separates Barnes and Cade from Green is, they do other things on the court well. Cade is a PG in a wing's body. Barnes is an everything in a big wing's body. Does Green do anything but score?

Mobley had a chance to win titles being a KG/Duncan-style defensive big who is also a 1b on offense-- more like Boston KG or mid-to-late career Duncan rather than Minnesota MVP KG or early Duncan.

Again, being a good scorer is important but not sufficient to lead your team to a title. Scoring but not doing much else makes you Collin Sexton, or Brad Beal, or Zach LaVine.

I'm pretty sure Jalen Green at 20 has better handles and is more athletic than all of them and the only reason someone like Beal or Lavine are better right now than a 20 year old sophomore is because of years of NBA conditioning and strength training and being less mistake prone because they've just done it for so long. Lavine might have or had Green's vertical ability but Green clears him in the other aspects of athleticism such as quickness, pliability etc.


Green's baseline as a superior ball handler than those guys gives him more head room to be more than just those guys.


I mean surprise... "Playmaking" requires more than just "vision". It requires ball handling. It requires an ability to collapse defenses. Players who consistently beat perimeter defenses and can navigate in traffic with a live dribble in the paint area have an advantage as playmakers.

I think Green is the best at getting to where he wants in a half court and fast break setting out of this draft. I think that strait alone allows him to expand to be more than "just a scorer".

[Shock Defeat]

Jalen Green is still well within the range of being more like Collin Sexton than Kobe Bryant.

I don't see anything about Sexton that screams elite athleticism. That's the reason why he wasn't drafted top 3. Guys with freakish athleticism like Green are able to impact the game in more freakish ways.

[BallerTalk]

The passion people have about a "redraft" in year 2 is quite entertaining.

Yep, it's hilarious in its idiocy.
And predictably it has devolved into clueless commentary, cognitive dissonance, and petty vendettas.

[Onlytimewilltel]

That's true and 1 point per 100 possessions in scoring separate them but Green is going to be a 30 ppg player and Franz a low 20's.

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Green is going to be a 30ppg scorer and negatively impact winning a la Beal, LaVine, etc.

Franz might never average 25 and yet he already has demonstrated his capacity to positively impact a team in many ways other than scoring, and on both ends of the floor.

Franz is the kind of guy you want as your tertiary option on a championship team. Green is the kind of guy you want if you like barely making the playoffs and getting swept when you do.

what were Beal and Lavine doing at 20 exactly?


What's funny is the Rockets with a team of 19 and 20 year olds with literally one regular rotation player above 22 (Eric Gordon) has actually had a winning record the past 10 games with Green at age 20 during that stretch averaging like 25 ppg on like 58% ts and taking over games and beating teams like the Sixers, Suns, Bucks etc.


I don't see the Magic having a single 10 game stretch having a .500 or better record and yet Franz is a year older, has a rookie of the year teammate and more players above the age of 22 which means hey probably are more competent. So why hasn't that translated to wins with Franz.


Screaming "wins" for a player on a 8-20 team is pathetic.


Honestly you should be ashamed of yourself for pigeon holing a 20 year old showing immense promise as a career loser. Such a dumb ass take.

Don't bother arguing with mr 2019 Toronto Raptors*

He has horrible takes on a lot of different things, not worth it..

[Vampirate]

Jalen Green is still well within the range of being more like Collin Sexton than Kobe Bryant.

I don't see anything about Sexton that screams elite athleticism. That's the reason why he wasn't drafted top 3. Guys with freakish athleticism like Green are able to impact the game in more freakish ways.

I'd say Green is on the Donovan Mitchell/Anthony Edwards trajectory.

Thing is I don't know if he can be more than them because of well, size. And both those players are built like tanks.

Also I wouldn't knock Lavine here, the guy once put up 27 PPG on 50/40/84 shooting.

Given Green's main calling card is scoring, saying he has Lavine type potential when Lavine put up that stateline for a season isn't really knocking him.

Fwiw Derozan became a great playmaker and yet the Bulls can't do anything.

It's just extremely, extremely hard to get a top 15 player let alone a top 10.

Green has some great strengths but also some big flaws, as do a lot/everyone in that draft.

[basketballRob]

Cade and Barnes are even more inefficient. Mobley like scores 75% of his buckets off assists.

The thing that separates Barnes and Cade from Green is, they do other things on the court well. Cade is a PG in a wing's body. Barnes is an everything in a big wing's body. Does Green do anything but score?

Mobley had a chance to win titles being a KG/Duncan-style defensive big who is also a 1b on offense-- more like Boston KG or mid-to-late career Duncan rather than Minnesota MVP KG or early Duncan.

Again, being a good scorer is important but not sufficient to lead your team to a title. Scoring but not doing much else makes you Collin Sexton, or Brad Beal, or Zach LaVine.

I'm pretty sure Jalen Green at 20 has better handles and is more athletic than all of them and the only reason someone like Beal or Lavine are better right now than a 20 year old sophomore is because of years of NBA conditioning and strength training and being less mistake prone because they've just done it for so long. Lavine might have or had Green's vertical ability but Green clears him in the other aspects of athleticism such as quickness, pliability etc.


Green's baseline as a superior ball handler than those guys gives him more head room to be more than just those guys.


I mean surprise... "Playmaking" requires more than just "vision". It requires ball handling. It requires an ability to collapse defenses. Players who consistently beat perimeter defenses and can navigate in traffic with a live dribble in the paint area have an advantage as playmakers.

I think Green is the best at getting to where he wants in a half court and fast break setting out of this draft. I think that strait alone allows him to expand to be more than "just a scorer".

He's probably closer to Beal.

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[jasonxxx102]

I can't wait to come back to this in 3 years to see the Baller Talks of the world hyping up whatever flavor of the day prospect the Rockets just drafted in the lottery

[Farhan0311]

Jalen Green is still well within the range of being more like Collin Sexton than Kobe Bryant.

I don't see anything about Sexton that screams elite athleticism. That's the reason why he wasn't drafted top 3. Guys with freakish athleticism like Green are able to impact the game in more freakish ways.

I'd say Green is on the Donovan Mitchell/Anthony Edwards trajectory.

Thing is I don't know if he can be more than them because of well, size. And both those players are built like tanks.

Also I wouldn't knock Lavine here, the guy once put up 27 PPG on 50/40/84 shooting.

Given Green's main calling card is scoring, saying he has Lavine type potential when Lavine put up that stateline for a season isn't really knocking him.

Fwiw Derozan became a great playmaker and yet the Bulls can't do anything.

It's just extremely, extremely hard to get a top 15 player let alone a top 10.

Green has some great strengths but also some big flaws, as do a lot/everyone in that draft.

How many years in of NBA experience before he got to that level of 27 ppg?

It's not a knock on Lavine. It's watching what he was like at 20 and what Green is like now and seeing obvious traits that are in Green's favor.

Lavine simply didn't have the handles of Green. In fact I'm confident in saying Green is a more dynamic ball handler than current Lavine.

Also the only aspect of athleticism that Lavine is at the same elite level as Green in is leaping ability. Green is the faster accelerator. Not only is he just flat out faster but he can have control of a dribble at much faster speed than Lavine. Green is also just more pliable, slippery etc. Think of a cat turning into liquid and squeezing under a door.


These traits give a lot more headroom for what Green can become. These traits allow Green to be a more than above average playmaker because playmaking isn't just about having good vision. It's about being a ball handler that can consistently beat perimeter defenses and get to where you want with a live dribble and keep that dribble live.

Anyways Lavine wasn't a 20 pt scorer until year 5. I didn't really even need to bring this all up. It's obvious Green"s career trajectory is quite different than Lavine's.

[Farhan0311]

The thing that separates Barnes and Cade from Green is, they do other things on the court well. Cade is a PG in a wing's body. Barnes is an everything in a big wing's body. Does Green do anything but score?

Mobley had a chance to win titles being a KG/Duncan-style defensive big who is also a 1b on offense-- more like Boston KG or mid-to-late career Duncan rather than Minnesota MVP KG or early Duncan.

Again, being a good scorer is important but not sufficient to lead your team to a title. Scoring but not doing much else makes you Collin Sexton, or Brad Beal, or Zach LaVine.

I'm pretty sure Jalen Green at 20 has better handles and is more athletic than all of them and the only reason someone like Beal or Lavine are better right now than a 20 year old sophomore is because of years of NBA conditioning and strength training and being less mistake prone because they've just done it for so long. Lavine might have or had Green's vertical ability but Green clears him in the other aspects of athleticism such as quickness, pliability etc.


Green's baseline as a superior ball handler than those guys gives him more head room to be more than just those guys.


I mean surprise... "Playmaking" requires more than just "vision". It requires ball handling. It requires an ability to collapse defenses. Players who consistently beat perimeter defenses and can navigate in traffic with a live dribble in the paint area have an advantage as playmakers.

I think Green is the best at getting to where he wants in a half court and fast break setting out of this draft. I think that strait alone allows him to expand to be more than "just a scorer".

He's probably closer to Beal.

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Man I feel like a loser honestly for putting in effort to explain my positions.

I guess I'll just make statements and don't need to back em up.

Green is going to be better than Michael Jordan and LeBron.

[QingJames]

I don't see anything about Sexton that screams elite athleticism. That's the reason why he wasn't drafted top 3. Guys with freakish athleticism like Green are able to impact the game in more freakish ways.

I'd say Green is on the Donovan Mitchell/Anthony Edwards trajectory.

Thing is I don't know if he can be more than them because of well, size. And both those players are built like tanks.

Also I wouldn't knock Lavine here, the guy once put up 27 PPG on 50/40/84 shooting.

Given Green's main calling card is scoring, saying he has Lavine type potential when Lavine put up that stateline for a season isn't really knocking him.

Fwiw Derozan became a great playmaker and yet the Bulls can't do anything.

It's just extremely, extremely hard to get a top 15 player let alone a top 10.

Green has some great strengths but also some big flaws, as do a lot/everyone in that draft.

How many years in of NBA experience before he got to that level of 27 ppg?

It's not a knock on Lavine. It's watching what he was like at 20 and what Green is like now and seeing obvious traits that are in Green's favor.

Lavine simply didn't have the handles of Green. In fact I'm confident in saying Green is a more dynamic ball handler than current Lavine.

Also the only aspect of athleticism that Lavine is at the same elite level as Green in is leaping ability. Green is the faster accelerator. Not only is he just flat out faster but he can have control of a dribble at much faster speed than Lavine. Green is also just more pliable, slippery etc. Think of a cat turning into liquid and squeezing under a door.


These traits give a lot more headroom for what Green can become. These traits allow Green to be a more than above average playmaker because playmaking isn't just about having good vision. It's about being a ball handler that can consistently beat perimeter defenses and get to where you want with a live dribble and keep that dribble live.

Anyways Lavine wasn't a 20 pt scorer until year 5. I didn't really even need to bring this all up. It's obvious Green"s career trajectory is quite different than Lavine's.

I get what you’re saying that Green is starting from a more promising baseline than some other combo guards but you’re missing the point that:

1. Development is not linear. Just because Green started off his career better than those guys did does not mean he will ever equal or surpass where they are now, or that if/when he does it will be on a predictable timetable (4 years, etc.) Barnes was the ROTY last year and was indisputably better than Franz. This year, Franz has shown much more development than Barnes who has regressed, and Franz is clearly the better player. This is to say that development never improves year after year in a clear trajectory.

2. Even if Green becomes a superior offensive version of Beal/LaVine/Clarkson/etc., so what? You’re not winning a title with a combo guard as your best player unless they’re an elite defender as well. Green is not and never will be, and you can tell by how horribly lost he is off ball. He has terrible defensive awareness and scoring 30ppg is not going to fix this. Will Green ever become as valuable as an offensive player as Trae? He’ll need to be even better, considering he is as bad as Trae on defense.

EDIT: And to the people who will invariably say "you aren't watching the games bro, Green is totally neutral on defense" please go to this website and spend some time looking at the defensive possessions Green is involved in: https://the-high-low.com/

Yes, Green is passable as a point of attack defender using his length and quickness. That's like 10% of being a good defender in the NBA. He is completely lost when defending off the ball with regard to spacing, rotations, and screen navigation. He also constantly ballwatches. These are awareness issues and are not easy to fix.