Isaac Okoro

[mcfly1204]

What's crazy here is that if Okoro continues to refine his game, which seems very feasible, Cleveland will have drafted 3 starters in the lottery in consecutive years.

[JonFromVA]

One of Isaac's challenges is going to be speeding up his 3pt shot. Until he does that he probably won't get his volume particularly high. By attacking hard closeouts like he's been doing recently, he will force defenses to adjust again and edge a bit closer.

Already, he's often been enough of a threat that Garland just has to look towards Okoro to freeze his defender.

We've also been involving Isaac in more ball screens and he's a weapon in transition ... so, really lots of positive signs from the days he primarily sat in the corner and bricked shots.

We'll give JBB the credit because he's the head coach - but it makes me wonder who's primarily been working with Isaac and helping him settle down his 3pt shot and expand his game.

[toooskies]

We should still temper our Okoro expectations. I'm not saying this cannot be the new norm, but more realistically this is a hot stretch.

I am liking more what I am seeing outside of the three point shot because it feels repeatable at higher levels. I also hope he can fall into being a 38-39% three point shooter on this slightly higher volume. He would be a legit elite role player.

With each passing game, the sample size increases. I’m not saying it’s large enough to come to a conclusion that this is what we should expect going forward, but…

Well, let me put it this way. If teams aren’t going to take Okoro seriously, that will only benefit him. Having these wide open looks that we know he can make will help the likelihood that his shot continues to fall because… well, you’d rather have that over a contested three. But if teams start taking him seriously, that just opens up our offense, which will do wonders for us.

So, I welcome this. Keep letting either scenario happen. I think we’ve gotten to the point where this is a clear win/win scenario for us.

I am just imploring fans to not get ahead of their selves. If/when Okoro has a cold streak, the same people supporting him now may vilify him. I just want to use the full context of this season and prior seasons to paint the picture that 47% from three on 4 attempts per 36 minutes is not sustainable for Okoro (the last 25 game sample).

Probably not, but somewhere in the 35-40% range is sustainable, given he's been 35% now in the sample size of both seasons, counting both rough starts. And his shot being contested may or may not impact his percentage.

The early slumps have led to this weird effect where his season-long numbers are below his "comfortable" numbers and that leaves him more open than he probably should be night-to-night.

Also, I think 57 games is enough to take his 3.7 shots per 36 from range as a realistic volume number. He's now scoring more per 36 than the past two years, rebounding more, getting more steals and blocks. Assists being slightly down because he's driving from the corner less, but he seems to make good decisions when he does drive.

[JonFromVA]

What's crazy here is that if Okoro continues to refine his game, which seems very feasible, Cleveland will have drafted 3 starters in the lottery in consecutive years.

Well, the odds of drafting 3 starters at 5, 5, and 3 aren't crazy ... a little over 50:50 I believe; but NOT drafting a complete bust at #5 sure would be appreciated.

[yoyoboy]

Honestly the wing spot doesn’t look that bad for us at the moment. Okoro, Cedi, and Wade are all playing well. Even LeVert hasn’t been making me as angry lately. Okoro can clamp down individual guys on defense and is hitting that corner three. Wade is an awesome team defender and keeps the ball moving on offense. Cedi can get hot from three and I like how he moves off the ball for cuts and fast breaks. And LeVert provides some decent playmaking to the bigs.

I’m completely fine not making a move. I wanna see this group continue to grow together. Chemistry is awesome and I think we just need patience. If anything we kinda have an overload of depth right now. Neto isn’t getting minutes anymore when everyone is healthy but the dude is solid. Love if he gets healthy and right is actually a productive bench player but there might not even be real minutes for him anymore. And I have no confidence in him, but could you imagine if Windler ever got healthy and could give us another wing option to play?

[JujitsuFlip]

We want to see a young player flashing the talents we hope will become consistent eventually, even against a pretty clueless team .... not whatever that was in the first part of the season.

What we've always needed was someone to step up and take the SF spot, and Isaac's doing that. The starting unit has been playing well, even though Mitchell is playing hurt.

Isaac is still a little on the short end for SF and the Cavs are going to need explore starting Wade against guys like Tatum. Durant, etc.

Okoro is significantly better at defending big forwards, better defending everyone, really. If he uses up his fouls that's fine but asking Wade to start against guys like Tatum and Durant is a recipe for disaster.

Okoro is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Wade is fine but let's not get carried away

Mmmm, no he's not lol

I know the couple random sites you use probably say that but you've been of this opinion for awhile so there's no way to really discuss it.

The hyperbole is unnecessary, because Okoro is a plus defender overall and is one of the most complete defenders on the team. However, when it comes to perimeter defense, that is not his strong suit, statistically.

But I'll give the guy his shine for hitting his 3s and improving on his overall defensive game.

[KuruptedCav]

I am just imploring fans to not get ahead of their selves. If/when Okoro has a cold streak, the same people supporting him now may vilify him. I just want to use the full context of this season and prior seasons to paint the picture that 47% from three on 4 attempts per 36 minutes is not sustainable for Okoro (the last 25 game sample).

I’m a broken record on him. I just want him to shoot those 4 3PAs per game regardless of whether he is hot (47%) or cold (27%) with the confidence that he’ll average out to a 37% by the end of the year.

That’s the difference between a $5mil/yr player and a MLE+ player.

Careful now ... the gap between Isaac shooting 37% on 4 attempts a game and Mikal Bridges who entered the league as a 22yr old and is presently making $20M+/year or even OG Anunouby who's making $16M/yr now but will be looking for a max on his next deal - is not all that wide. I'd very much like to lock-up Isaac on a super affordable contract during his athletic prime years.

I could be under-selling him. Swap MLE for $15-$20 million. I don’t think he has the track record of either Bridges or Anunoby. I don’t think he has the facilitator skills of Bridges nor the disruption and positional flex of OG.

I have him more in line with Grayson Allen, Donte DiVincenzo, Dillon Brooks.


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[mcfly1204]

Honestly the wing spot doesn’t look that bad for us at the moment. Okoro, Cedi, and Wade are all playing well. Even LeVert hasn’t been making me as angry lately. Okoro can clamp down individual guys on defense and is hitting that corner three. Wade is an awesome team defender and keeps the ball moving on offense. Cedi can get hot from three and I like how he moves off the ball for cuts and fast breaks. And LeVert provides some decent playmaking to the bigs.

I’m completely fine not making a move. I wanna see this group continue to grow together. Chemistry is awesome and I think we just need patience. If anything we kinda have an overload of depth right now. Neto isn’t getting minutes anymore when everyone is healthy but the dude is solid. Love if he gets healthy and right is actually a productive bench player but there might not even be real minutes for him anymore. And I have no confidence in him, but could you imagine if Windler ever got healthy and could give us another wing option to play?

LeVert actually made a layup last night. MVP... MVP... MVP...

[JonFromVA]

I’m a broken record on him. I just want him to shoot those 4 3PAs per game regardless of whether he is hot (47%) or cold (27%) with the confidence that he’ll average out to a 37% by the end of the year.

That’s the difference between a $5mil/yr player and a MLE+ player.

Careful now ... the gap between Isaac shooting 37% on 4 attempts a game and Mikal Bridges who entered the league as a 22yr old and is presently making $20M+/year or even OG Anunouby who's making $16M/yr now but will be looking for a max on his next deal - is not all that wide. I'd very much like to lock-up Isaac on a super affordable contract during his athletic prime years.

I could be under-selling him. Swap MLE for $15-$20 million. I don’t think he has the track record of either Bridges or Anunoby. I don’t think he has the facilitator skills of Bridges nor the disruption and positional flex of OG.

I have him more in line with Grayson Allen, Donte DiVincenzo, Dillon Brooks.

Don't lose sight that Isaac just turned 22 ... out of all the players we've mentioned, only OG entered the league as young as Isaac and he got 4/$72M coming off his rookie contract.

Anyway, the playoffs will be the ultimate test, and we might be smart to lock him up after this season, rather than giving him 2 shots to prove he's an elite defender in the playoffs.

[jasonxxx102]

Isaac is still a little on the short end for SF and the Cavs are going to need explore starting Wade against guys like Tatum. Durant, etc.

Okoro is significantly better at defending big forwards, better defending everyone, really. If he uses up his fouls that's fine but asking Wade to start against guys like Tatum and Durant is a recipe for disaster.

Okoro is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Wade is fine but let's not get carried away

Mmmm, no he's not lol

I know the couple random sites you use probably say that but you've been of this opinion for awhile so there's no way to really discuss it.

The hyperbole is unnecessary, because Okoro is a plus defender overall and is one of the most complete defenders on the team. However, when it comes to perimeter defense, that is not his strong suit, statistically.

But I'll give the guy his shine for hitting his 3s and improving on his overall defensive game.

Well at least y’all have come up to finally acknowledging him being a plus defender, you’re almost there.

Statistically he absolutely is one of the leagues best perimeter defenders. That’s just a fact. the stats say it, the eye test says it. Sooner rather than later y’all won’t be able to deny it anymore.

I’ve provided the stats and the film and you refuse to see it, which is what it is.

He hasn’t improved his defensive game either, that’s like the one thing that has been consistently great all season. He just barely played enough for it to shine. I can pull double digit clips from any game this season if you’d like

[jasonxxx102]

If you’re gonna deny the stats that show Isaac as an elite defensive player you better have an alternative. You can’t just say “these stats are wrong because… reasons”

[JonFromVA]

If you’re gonna deny the stats that show Isaac as an elite defensive player you better have an alternative. You can’t just say “these stats are wrong because… reasons”

Sure he can, it's a message board, not a debate team.

I do believe there are some synergy stats that show Isaac is doing a good job holding opponents below their usual averages, but can't figure out how to find them on nba.com anymore.

Anyway, like I indicated, everyone will wake up and realize what Isaac is doing *if* he does it in the playoffs. Otherwise, it's hard for a defensive player to make a strong impression when they're not putting up ridiculous block or steal numbers.

[jasonxxx102]

If you’re gonna deny the stats that show Isaac as an elite defensive player you better have an alternative. You can’t just say “these stats are wrong because… reasons”

Sure he can, it's a message board, not a debate team.

I do believe there are some synergy stats that show Isaac is doing a good job holding opponents below their usual averages, but can't figure out how to find them on nba.com anymore.

Anyway, like I indicated, everyone will wake up and realize what Isaac is doing *if* he does it in the playoffs. Otherwise, it's hard for a defensive player to make a strong impression when they're not putting up ridiculous block or steal numbers.

Fine, but it’s kinda lame to say “x is not true because I feel like saying it”

Yea he doesn’t jump off the page with blocks and steals and his defensive box isn’t impressive but his defensive difficulty (quality of opponents defended) is 98th percentile in the league and he’s 90th percentile in nearly every defensive AOI metric.

It’s hard to deny those and even still you can just watch him. He’s one of the best players I’ve ever seen at navigating ball screens, he moves so well laterally, defends well without fouling.

Sure he’s not 6’8 with a 7’3 wingspan but he holds his own against the league best shot creators every night

[JujitsuFlip]

Okoro is significantly better at defending big forwards, better defending everyone, really. If he uses up his fouls that's fine but asking Wade to start against guys like Tatum and Durant is a recipe for disaster.

Okoro is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Wade is fine but let's not get carried away

Mmmm, no he's not lol

I know the couple random sites you use probably say that but you've been of this opinion for awhile so there's no way to really discuss it.

The hyperbole is unnecessary, because Okoro is a plus defender overall and is one of the most complete defenders on the team. However, when it comes to perimeter defense, that is not his strong suit, statistically.

But I'll give the guy his shine for hitting his 3s and improving on his overall defensive game.

Well at least y’all have come up to finally acknowledging him being a plus defender, you’re almost there.

Statistically he absolutely is one of the leagues best perimeter defenders. That’s just a fact. the stats say it, the eye test says it. Sooner rather than later y’all won’t be able to deny it anymore.

I’ve provided the stats and the film and you refuse to see it, which is what it is.

He hasn’t improved his defensive game either, that’s like the one thing that has been consistently great all season. He just barely played enough for it to shine. I can pull double digit clips from any game this season if you’d like

No stats from a reputable site say it. I cannot recall the 2 sites you linked truncated info from last time but weren't they just pay walled gobbledygook?

But no Okoro is not one of the leagues best perimeter defenders. Which is okay, he's 22 years old and undersized for his position.

[JonFromVA]

If you’re gonna deny the stats that show Isaac as an elite defensive player you better have an alternative. You can’t just say “these stats are wrong because… reasons”

Sure he can, it's a message board, not a debate team.

I do believe there are some synergy stats that show Isaac is doing a good job holding opponents below their usual averages, but can't figure out how to find them on nba.com anymore.

Anyway, like I indicated, everyone will wake up and realize what Isaac is doing *if* he does it in the playoffs. Otherwise, it's hard for a defensive player to make a strong impression when they're not putting up ridiculous block or steal numbers.

Fine, but it’s kinda lame to say “x is not true because I feel like saying it”

Yea he doesn’t jump off the page with blocks and steals and his defensive box isn’t impressive but his defensive difficulty (quality of opponents defended) is 98th percentile in the league and he’s 90th percentile in nearly every defensive AOI metric.

It’s hard to deny those and even still you can just watch him. He’s one of the best players I’ve ever seen at navigating ball screens, he moves so well laterally, defends well without fouling.

Sure he’s not 6’8 with a 7’3 wingspan but he holds his own against the league best shot creators every night

If I disagreed with you, I'd be trying to present evidence to the contrary, but "one of the best defenders in the league" is a hard thing to prove no matter how many stats we throw out - because the stats are imperfect.

At best they suggest or support a conclusion, they don't really prove it.

And I will always defer to playoff performance because regular season performance is way too much about who's willing to give consistent effort.

But by all means, flood us with whatever you've got. Threads like this are also a great way to snapshot advanced stats at different times and track trends.

[JonFromVA]

Here's a recent tweet from bball-index that suggests Okoro ball screen defense has been very good, but 6 forwards are rated ahead of him (and no guards in this chart).

[mcfly1204]

Those charts need to die.

[KuruptedCav]

If you’re gonna deny the stats that show Isaac as an elite defensive player you better have an alternative. You can’t just say “these stats are wrong because… reasons”

He’s like 102nd in defensive win shares… and that 47.3% defensive FG% on 3pt shots might be why it seems like some teams just outperform vs Cavs…


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[toooskies]

If you’re gonna deny the stats that show Isaac as an elite defensive player you better have an alternative. You can’t just say “these stats are wrong because… reasons”

He’s like 102nd in defensive win shares… and that 47.3% defensive FG% on 3pt shots might be why it seems like some teams just outperform vs Cavs…


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Bball-index's D-LEBRON stat has Okoro around the 15th highest point of attack defender. Which makes him roughly thee best POA defender if put on half the teams in the league. Not elite, but certainly very good.

I would not use defensive win shares unless you like to penalize Okoro for leaking out on the break, which hurts his rebounding numbers but makes the offense better.

[KuruptedCav]

If you’re gonna deny the stats that show Isaac as an elite defensive player you better have an alternative. You can’t just say “these stats are wrong because… reasons”

He’s like 102nd in defensive win shares… and that 47.3% defensive FG% on 3pt shots might be why it seems like some teams just outperform vs Cavs…


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Bball-index's D-LEBRON stat has Okoro around the 15th highest point of attack defender. Which makes him roughly thee best POA defender if put on half the teams in the league. Not elite, but certainly very good.

I would not use defensive win shares unless you like to penalize Okoro for leaking out on the break, which hurts his rebounding numbers but makes the offense better.

1) I do penalize him for leaking out on the break because I don’t see the offensive translation. What I do see is the offensive rebounding of opponents contributed to by one of the worst rebounding SF in the league.

2) Okoro’s D-Lebron is buoyed by team defense. It’s a metric that favors bigs and players who play with good bigs. Being 4th on the Cavs and the defensive splits he has when he plays with them vs playing in front of the Kevin Love experience.

It’s the fun that comes with relying on a metric that rates Jaylen Brown and Cedi Osman as functionally the same on defense…

3) I know he’s a good defender. This is not a knock on him. Just challenging the use of the stat to say he’s elite.

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