PG: "Better Without DeRozan"

[Wingy]

Themes you can repeat after every Bulls game:

- AK’s an absolute idiot, fool, imbecile, and embarrassment for failing to take advantage of “too many buyers” at the deadline. At least get a 1st for America’s hustler Caruso FFS.

- Any other coach would be fired as of right now. But nope, we secret extended our elite gum chewer. Awful.

- Bulls ownership sucks. They’re out of touch, hold the tight purse strings, and leave the wrong people (who are also out of touch mirroring their bosses) in charge.

- Tank is the only way to go. If you’re worried about the Orlando optics when there are star talents at the top of the draft, then I think you might be AK behind that handle & keyboard. Cause anyone with an ounce of sense knows that a better chance at Wemby/Scoot is infinitely more important.

[The Box Office]

Better Without DeRozan sounds like a name for an up and coming indie musical group.

[FriedRise]

The Lakers won last night, so we're now the sole owner of the 7th spot. Those odds went up to 32%.

I'm still eyeing Orlando's spot at 42%. Just need to tie the record and we'll be there.

[DuckIII]

Themes you can repeat after every Bulls game:

- AK’s an absolute idiot, fool, imbecile, and embarrassment for failing to take advantage of “too many buyers” at the deadline. At least get a 1st for America’s hustler Caruso FFS.

- Any other coach would be fired as of right now. But nope, we secret extended our elite gum chewer. Awful.

- Bulls ownership sucks. They’re out of touch, hold the tight purse strings, and leave the wrong people (who are also out of touch mirroring their bosses) in charge.

- Tank is the only way to go. If you’re worried about the Orlando optics when there are star talents at the top of the draft, then I think you might be AK behind that handle & keyboard. Cause anyone with an ounce of sense knows that a better chance at Wemby/Scoot is infinitely more important.

[FriedRise]

I know we don't really care to talk about the game because there are so many holes and you can't pin-point any one thing to fix, but Vooch really pissed me off in the 3rd. The Pacers turned up the physicality and the dude just folded. Turnovers, can't defend anyone, doubling/tripling ball handlers when he didn't need to leading to open dunks or open 3s, bricked his own shots, got a tech.

7 rebounds for a starting center playing 36mpg? Drummond may be making a weekly appearance on Shaqtin, but he got the same 7 rebounds in 11 minutes.

For a veteran and one of the main guys, you're really expecting more especially when DeMar is out.

[DuckIII]

Better Without DeRozan sounds like a name for an up and coming indie musical group.

I avoid game threads like the plague (and the first few pages of post game threads) because it’s just real time emotion spewing out and therefore mostly a cesspool for logic. Is this really a thing a lot of people say? That this roster would literally be “better” without DDR?

[Red8911]

I know we don't really care to talk about the game because there are so many holes and you can't pin-point any one thing to fix, but Vooch really pissed me off in the 3rd. The Pacers turned up the physicality and the dude just folded. Turnovers, can't defend anyone, doubling/tripling ball handlers when he didn't need to leading to open dunks or open 3s, bricked his own shots, got a tech.

7 rebounds for a starting center playing 36mpg? Drummond may be making a weekly appearance on Shaqtin, but he got the same 7 rebounds in 11 minutes.

For a veteran and one of the main guys, you're really expecting more especially when DeMar is out.

Love Vuc but yeah he really pissed me off in that 3rd quarter. He was probably the main reason Indiana made a fast come back.He was frustrated kept missing shots and messing up in general. I don’t understand why Billy didn’t just sub him out for a few minutes so he can regain his composure. I blame Billy more than Vuc, it’s his job to know when to make subs. He was playing like sht and hurting the team, just take him out !

[Red8911]

Read on Twitter

Yup I couldn’t believe it ,glad you brought this up.

[Ice Man]

Is this really a thing a lot of people say? That this roster would literally be “better” without DDR?

Strat has it out for DDR as being an offense-killing ISO machine, with the strong suggestion that the team is better when he is off the court and the guys can play freely and quickly. (As with yesterday's 1st quarter.) I'm not sure who else has voiced that opinion. But I am sure it has been said on occasion, at least out of frustration, after games in which DDR has missed his shots.

I mean the bottom line is that we're all annoyed ight now. Even the tankers, because they know that the Bulls are not intending to lose, and will most likely win enough games to keep the Bulls from retaining their draft pick.

[ThisGuyFawkes]

Zach Lavine: The antithesis of clutch

Zach had a very good game. We shouldn't be in that position at all in this game. We were up by 24pts. I blame this one on Donovan.

Yes, I agree. That wasn't commentary on the entire game. It was meant for the last few minutes of every game where he constantly turns the ball over and takes terrible shots. For whatever reason, Zach can't seem to figure out how to win in the clutch moments of a game.

[MikeDC]

What would you say Billy is good at? Honest question. What is he good at from a coaching perspective? He has zero identity to his coaching style which is why this team has zero identity.

Nobody wants to hear anything good about Billy, but he's objectively a good defensive coach. The Bulls are absolutely set up for defensive failure with Vucevic in the middle, and yet they've got the 7th ranked defense.

Some of that is smoke and mirrors, even his employment of smoke and mirrors to cover up having those non-defensive oafs in the middle and DeRozan as the primary guy on the wing is indicative of a guy who knows what he's doing.

Offensively, I dunno. I liked what they did in 20-21 a lot better than what they're doing this year and last year without Lonzo, but I think they're deliberately sacrificing offense to play keep the defense from falling apart.

[MikeDC]

Read on Twitter

Yup I couldn’t believe it ,glad you brought this up.

Zach and Ayo are so mechanical as "point guard". Their feel for things is just so rudimentary that you're never going to get anything sophisticated going with them

[coldfish]

Blown huge leads are usually on the coach. Zach certainly has decision making issues but fool me once, shame on you. Fool me hundreds of times, shame on me. BD is just a tank commander.

As always, I am firmly in the camp that the players win, and the players lose. Coaches have little to do with the outcome. Take Nick Nurse, everybody's poster child for a coach who wrings wins out of his roster. The guy has Siakim, van Fleet, Barnes, OG, and Gary Trent, and his team is 28-31, a mere 1 1/2 games ahead of the Bulls. Give Nurse this team with its erratic supporting cast and two-time All Star reliably fading down the stretch, and I bet the Bulls would have essentially the same record as it has today, with the same complaints from the fans.

IMO, once you get a lead to a certain point a coach can effectively take the air out of the ball and just cruise to a W. BD's "no adjustments" philosophy is the type of thing that leads to having the most blown big leads in the NBA.

Overall I don't think that coaches really have a huge impact on a team but they do matter. The Knicks currently have a 6 game lead on the Bulls with a roster I would consider to be inferior to Chicago's and its all coaching.

[The Box Office]

Better Without DeRozan sounds like a name for an up and coming indie musical group.

I avoid game threads like the plague (and the first few pages of post game threads) because it’s just real time emotion spewing out and therefore mostly a cesspool for logic. Is this really a thing a lot of people say? That this roster would literally be “better” without DDR?

OP can explain it. To me, I thought the title of the thread is sarcasm for the people here who truly believe that we're better off without DeRozan especially LaVine riders.

[RSP83]

I never understood how people came to the conclusion that DDR is the reason Bulls lose so many games. In contrary, IMO he's the only reason we're still hovering around the play-in spots. The easiest way to tank is to shut him down for the season.

[ChettheJet]

Well that title is proof someone doesn't know spit about basketball

I think you saw that yes DeRozan can dominate the ball at times to the detriment of the team. By now it should be crystal clear how important Lonzo Ball is to the success of this group, mainly by controlling the ball so that task doesn't fall to Zach and Demar and they can just score. Lavine is a very odd player to me. He can make a HUGE shot under extreme pressure when the team needs a basket. But conversely as a ball handler, passer or on defense he has nearly no ability to handle the pressure of holding his dribble, making the right pass, passing out of a double team with a 3rd guy approaching thus he turns the ball over at the times they can least afford it. While at the same time hitting a 30 foot shot as the buzzer goes off.

It was a tantalizing 1st quarter when the Bulls played the game they are supposed to. It also showed the lack of basketball sense this group has in the 2nd half. This time there was no one to rip the ball from Lavine and take control of the game trying to replicate the 1st quarter.

Adam and Stacey no doubt have orders not to be too critical or they won't get to be on the team plane but it hurts the broadcast to have them keep trying to cover for these guys. The closest they come is saying that the Pacers (and others) talk at halftime and say, if we pressure these guys a little more, they'll fold up and we can win this game. And that what happens, the pressure comes and the lack of leadership shows itself, they can't cope with the pressure and the games no matter the size of the lead keep slipping away. The studio guys make a joke out of their show because they don't want to have so much time to be forced to apologize for the lack of basically basketball the team shows just stopping the good play of the 1st quarter and falling apart in the 2nd half.


The new word Billy used pg was Composure.The sad part is it's not one guy who loses his composure, it's the whole group. Now we know Zach isn't a leader, Ayo is young and hasn't had the ball in his hands in these situation Patrick has been left out of these situations most of the year and if someone doesn't pass Vuc the ball he doesn't have it. Coby is not perfect but he doesn't seem like the biggest part of the problem. The guy I don't get is Caruso. Heady veteran, coaching up guys on the bench when he's out of the game, he doesn't seem to have the grasp of how to take control and steady the ship when things start going south. And you would think that was part of why he was too valuable to trade.

[MikeDC]

Overall I don't think that coaches really have a huge impact on a team but they do matter. The Knicks currently have a 6 game lead on the Bulls with a roster I would consider to be inferior to Chicago's and its all coaching.

I think you're really optimistic on the Bulls roster. They're top 7 in minutes played vs. ours

Brunson > Zach
Randle = DeMar
Barret >> Pat
Quickley >> Ayo
Grimes > Coby
Hartenstein < Caruso
MitchRob > Vuc

And that's just as abstract players. The only guy I'd give advantage to on the Bulls is Caruso over Hartenstein.

But in reality, the Knicks players aren't just better, they can be combined into a really obvious, workable lineup.

PG - Brunson
SG - Grimes, Quickley
SF - Barrett
PF - Randle
C - MRob, Hartenstein

Not only do their starters fit together, Quickley can come in and while he's more of an SG, he does a better job running the point than any of the Bulls backup guards. And they've got plenty of size up front..

The Bulls in practice play something like:
PG -
SG - Zach, Ayo, Caruso, Coby
SF - DeMar, Pat
PF -
C - Vuc

Really, they don't have a PG or a SF at all, so they're playing SGs as PGs and SFs as PFs. Basically, the Knicks are clear winners on both talent and fit.

I think This is a better coach too, but it doesn't really matter. Fans are awful to coaches, they said all the exact same hyperbolic criticisms of Thibs when he was the Bulls coach that they make about Donovan now. In retrospect he's been sainted, but most fans will never accept that most coaches are actually pretty good and the talent available to them just kinda sucks.

[RSP83]

Blown huge leads are usually on the coach. Zach certainly has decision making issues but fool me once, shame on you. Fool me hundreds of times, shame on me. BD is just a tank commander.

As always, I am firmly in the camp that the players win, and the players lose. Coaches have little to do with the outcome. Take Nick Nurse, everybody's poster child for a coach who wrings wins out of his roster. The guy has Siakim, van Fleet, Barnes, OG, and Gary Trent, and his team is 28-31, a mere 1 1/2 games ahead of the Bulls. Give Nurse this team with its erratic supporting cast and two-time All Star reliably fading down the stretch, and I bet the Bulls would have essentially the same record as it has today, with the same complaints from the fans.

IMO, once you get a lead to a certain point a coach can effectively take the air out of the ball and just cruise to a W. BD's "no adjustments" philosophy is the type of thing that leads to having the most blown big leads in the NBA.

Overall I don't think that coaches really have a huge impact on a team but they do matter. The Knicks currently have a 6 game lead on the Bulls with a roster I would consider to be inferior to Chicago's and its all coaching.

It depends on the team. I remember the early Memphis Grizzlies team, how big a difference Hubie Brown made to that team. They went from 25 win team to 50 win team immediately with the same roster. The roster was already solid the year they only won 25 games. They had Pau, Jason Williams, Battier, Mike Miller, and some solid role players. Hubie maxed out the talent they have and turned Jason Williams into an efficient point guard. A coach like Hubie would do wonders for this team, but at the same time it was a very different game then.

[coldfish]

Overall I don't think that coaches really have a huge impact on a team but they do matter. The Knicks currently have a 6 game lead on the Bulls with a roster I would consider to be inferior to Chicago's and its all coaching.

I think you're really optimistic on the Bulls roster. They're top 7 in minutes played vs. ours

Brunson > Zach
Randle = DeMar
Barret >> Pat
Quickley >> Ayo
Grimes > Coby
Hartenstein < Caruso
MitchRob > Vuc

I strongly disagree with that. IMO, you are falling into the Thibs trap where he coaches up players to make them look better than they are while BD just hangs everyone out to dry. If you switch coaches, I think a lot of those ">" flip around. Just as an example, Randle was largely considered a bust type player before he met Thibs and now you have him as the equivalent of Derozan.

A lot of what Thibodeau does is cater both the offense and defense to the skills of the players and then ride hot hands in the 4th. BD regularly will freeze out hot players and seems to have no personnel specific schemes.

[MrSparkle]

It’s alarming that 3y in, little has panned out in Donovan’s prep with this roster.

I also think he hates Zach’s and Demar’s games, and it’s hard for your 1-2-3 to not be on the same page. It’s looked like that since Lonzo went down (which imo, was a good/fun team, but arguably a 1st rd exit, depending on the match-up). But I believe the faster outlet passes, 3P shooting and more aggressive D did make that team fun to watch, besides those brutal losses where Lonzo was guarding bigs in the post.

But 4th Q crumbles aside, last night did look like a semblance of the team this should be. Coby/Zach should have 15+ 3PAs a game, Ayo/Pat should not be shy, and if we’re gonna play a 6’3 Caruso with 0 FGs in 30 minutes, might as well play a 6’7 Terry with 0 FGs in 15 minutes.

Just common sense stuff?

Thibs was a big picture, stubborn coach - but his schemes and authority worked. The nightmare 14/15 season where the team looked broken, he still had 50 wins and took Lebron to 6 games. Not asking for 50, but being a bottom-10 (maybe even 5) team since last January, for 12mo, with a solid depth chart and decent healthy bodies… just seems to be a coaching strike first and foremost.

And it starts with the lack of 3P sets. I know Caruso’s been cold, but he needs to shoot about 4 3PAs if he’s averaging 25+ mpg. Live and die by the 3P.

It’s better than dying almost every night. So many games where we out rebound, out defend, out assist, shoot more FTs… and lose to a late rally, and end the game with 5/25 3P shooting while the other team has about 10 more points.

But the player mix is bad too, and I concur a coaching change is not a fix for this roster.