What's next?

[magickingdom]

I like Fultz.
At this point, Cole is still to inconsistent.

[Skin]

So…run it back and add another mediocre PG to our pile, make incremental progress, then max Franz & Paolo and just settle into the middle of the pack? We’ve got to think bigger - we’ve got lots of cap space and picks at just the right time to surround our ROY and the guy who now looks like the best player from the previous draft.

Like it or not, incremental progress is the way we are going to compete again. We're not getting Steph, Durant or Giannis to sign here, nor are we trading for Embiid, Nokic or Dame. We're gonna have to develop our own stars and have the cap space to keep them when they blossom.

The second thing we need to do is continue to field a team following WeHam's vision. It's an uncommon identity that is tough to match up with. The Long Boi strategy has been working. But it isn't complete.

Who are you thinking we could use our cap and draft picks to get?

[drsd]

Like it or not, incremental progress is the way we are going to compete again.

And-1

The Magic is no longer terrible and is by far the best-bad team. I do see mediocrity as an achievable outcome to this season.

What management does with a 36/46-type roster to develop it further will be very interesting.

[drsd]

I like Fultz.
At this point, Cole is still to inconsistent.

For me Fultz is the clear long-term starting PG. This then leads to either Suggs or Anthony being shipped of. I am of a 50/50 mind in that. It is great to have a backup PG that can pour in points (Anthony), but Suggs capacity to e a backup for both guard slots means he could develop into an NBA elite 6th man.

Coin flip for me between the two for the primary 6th man. And the other's got to go.

Cole/2023 pick
Suggs/2023 pick

For me the question is which of these is a better trade package to get a high-volume 3-ball shooter to start at the SG slot. Through in Okeke to whichever gets a deal done.

..

[VFX]

Cole/2023 pick
Suggs/2023 pick

For me the question is which of these is a better trade package to get a high-volume 3-ball shooter to start at the SG slot. Through in Okeke to whichever gets a deal done.

..

A. This hypothetical player has to be available.

B. Salaries have to match. Okeke alone doesn’t do this If you are talking about a starter as opposed to what the prospects provide.

C. The timeframe has to match with Paolo/Franz. Getting a 29-32 year old guy for multiple frps is a waste of assets


OR.

You could just use the draft picks as cost controlled assets for the next 8 years, which is probably a better use of money than paying a guy $20m because he can hit a mid-range jumper.

[drsd]

Cole/2023 pick
Suggs/2023 pick

For me the question is which of these is a better trade package to get a high-volume 3-ball shooter to start at the SG slot. Through in Okeke to whichever gets a deal done.

..

A. This hypothetical player has to be available.

B. Salaries have to match. Okeke alone doesn’t do this If you are talking about a starter as opposed to what the prospects provide.

C. The timeframe has to match with Paolo/Franz. Getting a 29-32 year old guy for multiple frps is a waste of assets


OR.

Your could just use the draft picks as cost controlled assets for the next 8 years, which is probably a better use of money than paying a guy $20m because he can hit a mid-range jumper.

You "OR" basically would have the Magic resigning G-Harris to be the starting SG, and then the 6 and 7 picks would be backups (perhaps even 3rd stringers). Not sure I think that's the best path forward.

This team is almost too young. A 29 year old would be a bad idea in a trade package.


AND: the mistake none of us want again. It was six years ago the Magic traded Oladipo, Ilyasova, and the rights to Domantas Sabonis for Serge Ibaka. That move really did not work out. And the threat the Magic will make that sort of mistake in a consolidation trade is high.

For example, Suggs, Okeke and the Bills pick for Anfernee Simons could be a disaster. It is the sort of trade I think is plausible, but a lot in it could could hard-wrong. Still, sooner or later, WeHamm needs to pull the trigger on that sort of deal.

..

[VFX]

For me the question is which of these is a better trade package to get a high-volume 3-ball shooter to start at the SG slot. Through in Okeke to whichever gets a deal done.

..

A. This hypothetical player has to be available.

B. Salaries have to match. Okeke alone doesn’t do this If you are talking about a starter as opposed to what the prospects provide.

C. The timeframe has to match with Paolo/Franz. Getting a 29-32 year old guy for multiple frps is a waste of assets


OR.

Your could just use the draft picks as cost controlled assets for the next 8 years, which is probably a better use of money than paying a guy $20m because he can hit a mid-range jumper.

You "OR" basically would have the Magic resigning G-Harris to be the starting SG, and then the 6 and 7 picks would be backups (perhaps even 3rd stringers). Not sure I think that's the best path forward.

This team is almost too young. A 29 year old would be a bad idea in a trade package.


AND: the mistake none of us want again. It was six years ago the Magic traded Oladipo, Ilyasova, and the rights to Domantas Sabonis for Serge Ibaka. That move really did not work out. And the threat the Magic will make that sort of mistake in a consolidation trade is high.

For example, Suggs, Okeke and the Bills pick for Anfernee Simons could be a disaster. It is the sort of trade I think is plausible, but a lot in it could could hard-wrong. Still, sooner or later, WeHamm needs to pull the trigger on that sort of deal.

..

Why does Gary Harris need to be resigned?

Orlando can add vet depth from guys that don’t need to start.

Being too young is somehow only important to Orlando. Meanwhile Memphis and New Orleans are playoff teams and super young. Not sure why they didn’t sign a bunch of 32 year old vets to play in place of their prospects…

[drsd]

Why does Gary Harris need to be resigned?

Orlando can add vet depth from guys that don’t need to start.

Being too young is somehow only important to Orlando. Meanwhile Memphis and New Orleans are playoff teams and super young. Not sure why they didn’t sign a bunch of 32 year old vets to play in place of their prospects…

Are you arguing that the next SG starter should come from the current bench? This is the argument for Fultz and Suggs to co-start. This season proved that this does not work at all.

Orlando must have shooting at the 2 slot.


..

[VFX]

Why does Gary Harris need to be resigned?

Orlando can add vet depth from guys that don’t need to start.

Being too young is somehow only important to Orlando. Meanwhile Memphis and New Orleans are playoff teams and super young. Not sure why they didn’t sign a bunch of 32 year old vets to play in place of their prospects…

Are you arguing that the next SG starter should come from the current bench? This is the argument for Fultz and Suggs to co-start. This season proved that this does not work at all.

Orlando must have shooting at the 2 slot.


..

No. I’m arguing that a top 5-8 lotto pick shooting guard should be able to do more than Gary Harris.

I’d never argue for a Fultz/Suggs backcourt. Not enough outside shooting and not enough playmaking. Terrible pairing.

Fultz should be moved. He does nothing at an elite level and requires a large contract after next season. Moving Suggs would be dumb. He’s elite defensively and on a rookie deal.

[drsd]

I’d never argue for a Fultz/Suggs backcourt. Not enough outside shooting and not enough playmaking. Terrible pairing.

Fultz should be moved. He does nothing at an elite level and requires a large contract after next season. Moving Suggs would be dumb. He’s elite defensively and on a rookie deal.

I think the path forward for the Magic must be a decision between keeping either Fultz or Suggs, and moving the other. We can argue about which to retain, but I think we are in agreement that they cannot co-exist.

That leads us to what-to-do with Anthony. I think he is a good 6th man and could develop to being a top 6th man. But he can portably fetch more than his actual value. There, he should be traded if so.

At this point the Magic is really best serve by drafting either Anthony Black or Nick Smith as the Anthony replacement and the best shooting SG with the other.
In neither case would I see said player starting on opening both of the 2023/24 season.

Short term: either the Magic trade for a new SG, or G-Harris gets resigned.

[Knightro]

[I think the path forward for the Magic must be a decision between keeping either Fultz or Suggs, and moving the other. We can argue about which to retain, but I think we are in agreement that they cannot co-exist.

That leads us to what-to-do with Anthony. I think he is a good 6th man and could develop to being a top 6th man. But he can portably fetch more than his actual value. There, he should be traded if so.

At this point the Magic is really best serve by drafting either Anthony Black or Nick Smith as the Anthony replacement and the best shooting SG with the other.
In neither case would I see said player starting on opening both of the 2023/24 season.

Short term: either the Magic trade for a new SG, or G-Harris gets resigned.

This is not a difficult decision.

Suggs is already a more impactful basketball player than Fultz.

When you factor in that Jalen is 3 full years younger and locked in for the next two seasons at 7.2M and 9.2M compared to Fultz who makes 17M and is 1 year away from wanting that to increase to $25M+ and it's really a no brainer.

[drsd]

[I think the path forward for the Magic must be a decision between keeping either Fultz or Suggs, and moving the other. We can argue about which to retain, but I think we are in agreement that they cannot co-exist.

That leads us to what-to-do with Anthony. I think he is a good 6th man and could develop to being a top 6th man. But he can portably fetch more than his actual value. There, he should be traded if so.

At this point the Magic is really best serve by drafting either Anthony Black or Nick Smith as the Anthony replacement and the best shooting SG with the other.
In neither case would I see said player starting on opening both of the 2023/24 season.

Short term: either the Magic trade for a new SG, or G-Harris gets resigned.

This is not a difficult decision.

Suggs is already a more impactful basketball player than Fultz.

When you factor in that Jalen is 3 full years younger and locked in for the next two seasons at 7.2M and 9.2M compared to Fultz who makes 17M and is 1 year away from wanting that to increase to $25M+ and it's really a no brainer.

We are not going to agree on this. For example, the per 36 lines of Fultz and Suggs this season strongly favours Fultz Player Comparison: Markelle Fultz vs. Jalen Suggs

And the W-L record also strongly favours Fultz.

Really it is just the salary line that separates the conversation. Until Suggs develops some sort of an offensive game, he is a liability to me, when he is on the court.

[VFX]

[I think the path forward for the Magic must be a decision between keeping either Fultz or Suggs, and moving the other. We can argue about which to retain, but I think we are in agreement that they cannot co-exist.

That leads us to what-to-do with Anthony. I think he is a good 6th man and could develop to being a top 6th man. But he can portably fetch more than his actual value. There, he should be traded if so.

At this point the Magic is really best serve by drafting either Anthony Black or Nick Smith as the Anthony replacement and the best shooting SG with the other.
In neither case would I see said player starting on opening both of the 2023/24 season.

Short term: either the Magic trade for a new SG, or G-Harris gets resigned.

This is not a difficult decision.

Suggs is already a more impactful basketball player than Fultz.

When you factor in that Jalen is 3 full years younger and locked in for the next two seasons at 7.2M and 9.2M compared to Fultz who makes 17M and is 1 year away from wanting that to increase to $25M+ and it's really a no brainer.

I’d also be fine with keeping Cole as opposed to Fultz.

He’s looked great next to Jalen for the most part and the FO can take a shot at another guard without many drawbacks. Depending on the lotto, drafting someone like Nick Smith in that position.

[JoshuaPotter]

[I think the path forward for the Magic must be a decision between keeping either Fultz or Suggs, and moving the other. We can argue about which to retain, but I think we are in agreement that they cannot co-exist.

That leads us to what-to-do with Anthony. I think he is a good 6th man and could develop to being a top 6th man. But he can portably fetch more than his actual value. There, he should be traded if so.

At this point the Magic is really best serve by drafting either Anthony Black or Nick Smith as the Anthony replacement and the best shooting SG with the other.
In neither case would I see said player starting on opening both of the 2023/24 season.

Short term: either the Magic trade for a new SG, or G-Harris gets resigned.

This is not a difficult decision.

Suggs is already a more impactful basketball player than Fultz.

When you factor in that Jalen is 3 full years younger and locked in for the next two seasons at 7.2M and 9.2M compared to Fultz who makes 17M and is 1 year away from wanting that to increase to $25M+ and it's really a no brainer.

I’d also be fine with keeping Cole as opposed to Fultz.

He’s looked great next to Jalen for the most part and the FO can take a shot at another guard without many drawbacks. Depending on the lotto, drafting someone like Nick Smith in that position.

I really do not think Cole is the answer at starting PG. Backup PG he could be the best in the league. (Or evolve into.)

However see all our prior discussions. If we can't get better in the draft, or find the right player for the right price then Cole may just get his wish and we experiment.

As much as I am mediocre on Fultz. The Fultz + Cole PG backup has been serviceable for our two developing Forwards. If we start from game 1 with them in the backcourt healthy we likely hover at .500 as a team.

[VFX]

[I think the path forward for the Magic must be a decision between keeping either Fultz or Suggs, and moving the other. We can argue about which to retain, but I think we are in agreement that they cannot co-exist.

That leads us to what-to-do with Anthony. I think he is a good 6th man and could develop to being a top 6th man. But he can portably fetch more than his actual value. There, he should be traded if so.

At this point the Magic is really best serve by drafting either Anthony Black or Nick Smith as the Anthony replacement and the best shooting SG with the other.
In neither case would I see said player starting on opening both of the 2023/24 season.

Short term: either the Magic trade for a new SG, or G-Harris gets resigned.

This is not a difficult decision.

Suggs is already a more impactful basketball player than Fultz.

When you factor in that Jalen is 3 full years younger and locked in for the next two seasons at 7.2M and 9.2M compared to Fultz who makes 17M and is 1 year away from wanting that to increase to $25M+ and it's really a no brainer.

We are not going to agree on this. For example, the per 36 lines of Fultz and Suggs this season strongly favours Fultz Player Comparison: Markelle Fultz vs. Jalen Suggs

And the W-L record also strongly favours Fultz.

Really it is just the salary line that separates the conversation. Until Suggs develops some sort of an offensive game, he is a liability to me, when he is on the court.

It’s funny how you conveniently don’t factor Cole into the point guard decision at all when it comes to Markelle’s future. Cole has looked better in tandem with Jalen for long stretches. That doesn’t mean he needs 28-30mpg, but it also doesn’t mean paying Fultz starters money makes sense to split minutes with a guy just as capable.

Yeah, salaries matter when roster construction is still in the air. You aren’t going to overpay a guy that doesn’t make sense with your star players because it’s convenient.

There are many configurations in the draft/ trade that make more sense financially and from a roster construction standpoint.

[VFX]

This is not a difficult decision.

Suggs is already a more impactful basketball player than Fultz.

When you factor in that Jalen is 3 full years younger and locked in for the next two seasons at 7.2M and 9.2M compared to Fultz who makes 17M and is 1 year away from wanting that to increase to $25M+ and it's really a no brainer.

I’d also be fine with keeping Cole as opposed to Fultz.

He’s looked great next to Jalen for the most part and the FO can take a shot at another guard without many drawbacks. Depending on the lotto, drafting someone like Nick Smith in that position.

I really do not think Cole is the answer at starting PG. Backup PG he could be the best in the league. (Or evolve into.)

However see all our prior discussions. If we can't get better in the draft, or find the right player for the right price then Cole may just get his wish and we experiment.

As much as I am mediocre on Fultz. The Fultz + Cole PG backup has been serviceable for our two developing Forwards. If we start from game 1 with them in the backcourt healthy we likely hover at .500 as a team.

Cole doesn’t have to be the starting point guard of the future. That’s the beauty of finding someone else in the meantime, to replace Fultz, and avoid paying him a huge unmovable contract within a year.

Orlando hasn’t looked significantly worse with a Cole/Suggs that they absolutely need to pay Fultz before finding another guy that can do more at the position.

[Knightro]

We are not going to agree on this. For example, the per 36 lines of Fultz and Suggs this season strongly favours Fultz Player Comparison: Markelle Fultz vs. Jalen Suggs

And the W-L record also strongly favours Fultz.

Really it is just the salary line that separates the conversation. Until Suggs develops some sort of an offensive game, he is a liability to me, when he is on the court.

I love all the information the Basketball Reference website provides us, but I think it's also caused a lot of brain drain when it comes to NBA analysis.

And respectfully, citing the team's record with Fultz and choosing to ignore the context that...

Anthony also missed 16 consecutive games from 10/28 to 11/30
Harris also missed 27 of the first 33 games from 10/19 to 12/23
Carter also missed 18 of 19 games from 11/16 to 12/23
Isaac also didn't even start playing until January 23rd, missing the first 46 games

Like look at what the rotation was in October and November during the dregs of that 5-20 stretch.

Guys like Hampton, Bamba, Schofield, K. Harris, Ross were not only playing, they were playing significant minutes.

So to credit the turnaround to Fultz is rather disingenuous when four other rotation players also returned all around roughly the same time.

There's mountains of evidence that says the team plays worse when Fultz is on the court compared to when he's off the court. If you don't want to accept that, that's your business, but it doesn't make it inaccurate information.

[Skybox]

I’d also be fine with keeping Cole as opposed to Fultz.

He’s looked great next to Jalen for the most part and the FO can take a shot at another guard without many drawbacks. Depending on the lotto, drafting someone like Nick Smith in that position.

I really do not think Cole is the answer at starting PG. Backup PG he could be the best in the league. (Or evolve into.)

However see all our prior discussions. If we can't get better in the draft, or find the right player for the right price then Cole may just get his wish and we experiment.

As much as I am mediocre on Fultz. The Fultz + Cole PG backup has been serviceable for our two developing Forwards. If we start from game 1 with them in the backcourt healthy we likely hover at .500 as a team.

Cole doesn’t have to be the starting point guard of the future. That’s the beauty of finding someone else in the meantime, to replace Fultz, and avoid paying him a huge unmovable contract within a year.

Orlando hasn’t looked significantly worse with a Cole/Suggs that they absolutely need to pay Fultz before finding another guy that can do more at the position.

For the record, other than as an expiring next season (like a mini-Westbrook) or seen as a largely non-guaranteed deal to gain cap space, he's already got an unmovable contract. We all like Fultz, but he's nowhere near his contract. Post some trade ideas on the general board and see what kind of responses you get for a guy with mediocre stats, huge & bizarre injury history, can't shoot and won't try to shoot, and doesn't get to the line, making $17m. It won't be pretty.

[JoshuaPotter]

Spoiler:

I really do not think Cole is the answer at starting PG. Backup PG he could be the best in the league. (Or evolve into.)

However see all our prior discussions. If we can't get better in the draft, or find the right player for the right price then Cole may just get his wish and we experiment.

As much as I am mediocre on Fultz. The Fultz + Cole PG backup has been serviceable for our two developing Forwards. If we start from game 1 with them in the backcourt healthy we likely hover at .500 as a team.

Cole doesn’t have to be the starting point guard of the future. That’s the beauty of finding someone else in the meantime, to replace Fultz, and avoid paying him a huge unmovable contract within a year.

Orlando hasn’t looked significantly worse with a Cole/Suggs that they absolutely need to pay Fultz before finding another guy that can do more at the position.

For the record, other than as an expiring next season (like a mini-Westbrook) or seen as a largely non-guaranteed deal to gain cap space, he's already got an unmovable contract. We all like Fultz, but he's nowhere near his contract. Post some trade ideas on the general board and see what kind of responses you get for a guy with mediocre stats, huge & bizarre injury history, can't shoot and won't try to shoot, and doesn't get to the line, making $17m. It won't be pretty.

I tried to get credit to our pedestrian PG situation whats due. I think we are a .500 team with them. I think in the same sentence that may be all we ever be as well.

The thought of giving Fultz a bigger contract looms large. Based on what? If we don't sign him, is he closer to walking out of the league or does he sign as a starter somewhere else? If where, WHO?

Note. We are on the same page. I don't get the value our board gives him. Here is hoping he turns it around post-all star break and shows us something.

[Skybox]

Spoiler:

Cole doesn’t have to be the starting point guard of the future. That’s the beauty of finding someone else in the meantime, to replace Fultz, and avoid paying him a huge unmovable contract within a year.

Orlando hasn’t looked significantly worse with a Cole/Suggs that they absolutely need to pay Fultz before finding another guy that can do more at the position.

For the record, other than as an expiring next season (like a mini-Westbrook) or seen as a largely non-guaranteed deal to gain cap space, he's already got an unmovable contract. We all like Fultz, but he's nowhere near his contract. Post some trade ideas on the general board and see what kind of responses you get for a guy with mediocre stats, huge & bizarre injury history, can't shoot and won't try to shoot, and doesn't get to the line, making $17m. It won't be pretty.

I tried to get credit to our pedestrian PG situation whats due. I think we are a .500 team with them. I think in the same sentence that may be all we ever be as well.

The thought of giving Fultz a bigger contract looms large. Based on what? If we don't sign him, is he closer to walking out of the league or does he sign as a starter somewhere else? If where, WHO?

Note. We are on the same page. I don't get the value our board gives him. Here is hoping he turns it around post-all star break and shows us something.

Nothing would make me happier than something clicking and he starts routinely scoring 20 ppg and becoming just enough of a threat from deep that he must be defended...I loved the initial trade, I love his personality and playing style, I love the patience and support we've shown, I love almost everything about his game, if he starts shooting (not Steph, just enough to be a factor) and looks anything like a #1 overall pick - I'd be the biggest Fultz fan there is. My urgency with doing something about him is due to his contract status and our really promising young team looking like they could be on the cusp of taking a big leap with the right leader. Would be great to see that our FO's long bet on Fultz paid off in a major way, but it's not realistic to say it has and we are faced with an exit strategy in the form of his non-guaranteed contract in a summer where we could do some big things.

We've been really patient and hopeful for years now...sometimes you've got to take the loss and move on.