What's next?

[Audi]

Why does Gary Harris need to be resigned?

Orlando can add vet depth from guys that don’t need to start.

Being too young is somehow only important to Orlando. Meanwhile Memphis and New Orleans are playoff teams and super young. Not sure why they didn’t sign a bunch of 32 year old vets to play in place of their prospects…

Are you arguing that the next SG starter should come from the current bench? This is the argument for Fultz and Suggs to co-start. This season proved that this does not work at all.

Orlando must have shooting at the 2 slot.


..

I tend to agree in theory but still - very small sample size. Certainly too small to draw this conclusion, imo. Longest running LU with the two of them in tandem is only like, 80 possessions...and it's not even close to being the worst lineup we've fielded this season.

[JoshuaPotter]

Nothing would make me happier than something clicking and he starts routinely scoring 20 ppg and becoming just enough of a threat from deep that he must be defended...I loved the initial trade, I love his personality and playing style, I love the patience and support we've shown, I love almost everything about his game, if he starts shooting (not Steph, just enough to be a factor) and looks anything like a #1 overall pick - I'd be the biggest Fultz fan there is. My urgency with doing something about him is due to his contract status and our really promising young team looking like they could be on the cusp of taking a big leap with the right leader. Would be great to see that our FO's long bet on Fultz paid off in a major way, but it's not realistic to say it has and we are faced with an exit strategy in the form of his non-guaranteed contract in a summer where we could do some big things.

We've been really patient and hopeful for years now...sometimes you've got to take the loss and move on.

Wouldn't be Orlando if we didn't take a risk on a Darko type player. Or our current "risk" in Bol-Bol.

[ogmagicfan]

Spoiler:

For the record, other than as an expiring next season (like a mini-Westbrook) or seen as a largely non-guaranteed deal to gain cap space, he's already got an unmovable contract. We all like Fultz, but he's nowhere near his contract. Post some trade ideas on the general board and see what kind of responses you get for a guy with mediocre stats, huge & bizarre injury history, can't shoot and won't try to shoot, and doesn't get to the line, making $17m. It won't be pretty.

I tried to get credit to our pedestrian PG situation whats due. I think we are a .500 team with them. I think in the same sentence that may be all we ever be as well.

The thought of giving Fultz a bigger contract looms large. Based on what? If we don't sign him, is he closer to walking out of the league or does he sign as a starter somewhere else? If where, WHO?

Note. We are on the same page. I don't get the value our board gives him. Here is hoping he turns it around post-all star break and shows us something.

Nothing would make me happier than something clicking and he starts routinely scoring 20 ppg and becoming just enough of a threat from deep that he must be defended...I loved the initial trade, I love his personality and playing style, I love the patience and support we've shown, I love almost everything about his game, if he starts shooting (not Steph, just enough to be a factor) and looks anything like a #1 overall pick - I'd be the biggest Fultz fan there is. My urgency with doing something about him is due to his contract status and our really promising young team looking like they could be on the cusp of taking a big leap with the right leader. Would be great to see that our FO's long bet on Fultz paid off in a major way, but it's not realistic to say it has and we are faced with an exit strategy in the form of his non-guaranteed contract in a summer where we could do some big things.

We've been really patient and hopeful for years now...sometimes you've got to take the loss and move on.

I feel the same.

If we have confidence we can get FVV & another archetype we need (shooter or physical rebounding big) we should go get them and release Fultz.

Question is, whats the deadline for when we have to make the decision to keep Fultz for next year?

Free agency starts on July 6th

[basketballRob]

Spoiler:

I tried to get credit to our pedestrian PG situation whats due. I think we are a .500 team with them. I think in the same sentence that may be all we ever be as well.

The thought of giving Fultz a bigger contract looms large. Based on what? If we don't sign him, is he closer to walking out of the league or does he sign as a starter somewhere else? If where, WHO?

Note. We are on the same page. I don't get the value our board gives him. Here is hoping he turns it around post-all star break and shows us something.

Nothing would make me happier than something clicking and he starts routinely scoring 20 ppg and becoming just enough of a threat from deep that he must be defended...I loved the initial trade, I love his personality and playing style, I love the patience and support we've shown, I love almost everything about his game, if he starts shooting (not Steph, just enough to be a factor) and looks anything like a #1 overall pick - I'd be the biggest Fultz fan there is. My urgency with doing something about him is due to his contract status and our really promising young team looking like they could be on the cusp of taking a big leap with the right leader. Would be great to see that our FO's long bet on Fultz paid off in a major way, but it's not realistic to say it has and we are faced with an exit strategy in the form of his non-guaranteed contract in a summer where we could do some big things.

We've been really patient and hopeful for years now...sometimes you've got to take the loss and move on.

I feel the same.

If we have confidence we can get FVV & another archetype we need (shooter or physical rebounding big) we should go get them and release Fultz.

Question is, whats the deadline for when we have to make the decision to keep Fultz for next year?

Free agency starts on July 6th

July 1st, and they likely won't be waiving him. I could see him accepting like a 3 year $45M extension. It would be tempting for him to sign for that amount rather than risk injury.

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[drsd]

It’s funny how you conveniently don’t factor Cole into the point guard decision at all when it comes to Markelle’s future.

You think I see it as a convenience to ignore Anthony as a starting PG on this roster?

For me it is Anthony's numerous deficiencies that preclude him for consideration for the most difficult job on an NBA court, not some convenience.

I can accept that Suggs could be a better decision over Fultz as a future PG, but I have no path to come to any acceptance there for Anthony.


..

[drsd]

So to credit the turnaround to Fultz is rather disingenuous when four other rotation players also returned all around roughly the same time.

There's mountains of evidence that says the team plays worse when Fultz is on the court compared to when he's off the court. If you don't want to accept that, that's your business, but it doesn't make it inaccurate information.

Beyond again accepting that I can see why many here see real potential in Suggs, what I see in Fultz is a game that fosters the capacity of the three bigs to shine.

I see a Magic team where the PGs job is simply to avoid mistakes. But that only works with a two guard taking five+ three point shots per game at a 40% clip.

Frankly: I think we are all giving too much oxygen to the PG situation given (what I see as) the horrible SG rotation.


..

[Audi]

So to credit the turnaround to Fultz is rather disingenuous when four other rotation players also returned all around roughly the same time.

There's mountains of evidence that says the team plays worse when Fultz is on the court compared to when he's off the court. If you don't want to accept that, that's your business, but it doesn't make it inaccurate information.

Beyond again accepting that I can see why many here see real potential in Suggs, what I see in Fultz is a game that fosters the capacity of the three bigs to shine.

I see a Magic team where the PGs job is simply to avoid mistakes. But that only works with a two guard taking five+ three point shots per game at a 40% clip.

Frankly: I think we are all giving too much oxygen to the PG situation given (what I see as) the horrible SG rotation.


..

Well said. This is essentially where I fall on all of this as well.

[Knightro]

Throw out Cole Anthony for a second. Throw out Jalen Suggs for a second. Pretend they don't even exist.

Just ask yourself one simple question.

Is Markelle Fultz with his limitations the kind of point guard you want to commit to long-term with Franz Wagner and Paolo Banchero locked in as your long-term forward combo?

For me it's a simple answer to a simple question. No.

[JoshuaPotter]

Is Markelle Fultz with his limitations the kind of point guard you want to commit to long-term with Franz Wagner and Paolo Banchero locked in as your long-term forward combo?

For me it's a simple answer to a simple question. No.

+1 Go even further. Throw out the entire "G" lineup. Start from scratch. Your first pick is....Fultz?

Shudder.

[VFX]

It’s funny how you conveniently don’t factor Cole into the point guard decision at all when it comes to Markelle’s future.

You think I see it as a convenience to ignore Anthony as a starting PG on this roster?

For me it is Anthony's numerous deficiencies that preclude him for consideration for the most difficult job on an NBA court, not some convenience.

I can accept that Suggs could be a better decision over Fultz as a future PG, but I have no path to come to any acceptance there for Anthony.


..

Anthony has deficiencies at $3.5m for this season.

Markelle has deficiencies at $16.5m for this season.

Both of these players have their contracts coming up. I know who I’d rather pay what money. We agree Cole is a backup point guard in this league. I’d rather they pay him as such.

Fultz is not going to take less than his current contract. I also don’t view him as a guy that should be given starters money. He’s a backup on a real contender.

[basketballRob]

The Toronto board hates FVV.

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[drsd]

Is Markelle Fultz with his limitations the kind of point guard you want to commit to long-term with Franz Wagner and Paolo Banchero locked in as your long-term forward combo?.

If you guarantee he is healthy to always play 70+ games a season as a starter (i.e. on a PER>16), every season, over the whole contract. And that the contract is well south of 20M a year.

I am a hard yes.

[Knightro]

If you guarantee he is healthy to always play 70+ games a season as a starter (i.e. on a PER>16), every season, over the whole contract. And that the contract is well south of 20M a year.

I am a hard yes.

I mean this with the utmost respect, but you're absolutely fooling yourself if you think Fultz is going to take a pay cut or even a flat contract.

That is just not happening.

And while I find PER to be one of the more useless stats out there - according to John Hollinger's own reference guide, a 16.1 PER ranks as a slightly above-average player, which is all Fultz is on his very best day from a box score perspective (which is all PER factors)

And in reality he's a lot worse than when you factor in defense and overall on-court impact to scoring and giving up points.

[Skin]

If you guarantee he is healthy to always play 70+ games a season as a starter (i.e. on a PER>16), every season, over the whole contract. And that the contract is well south of 20M a year.

I am a hard yes.

I mean this with the utmost respect, but you're absolutely fooling yourself if you think Fultz is going to take a pay cut or even a flat contract.

That is just not happening.

What do you think he's going to use to justify it?

[Knightro]

The Toronto board hates FVV.

Their fanbase is psychotic. Truly.

He's also been there a very long time. Sometimes it's just best for all parties to go their separate ways when things have run their course.

[Knightro]

What do you think he's going to use to justify it?

If he starts at point guard next season, then he'll go into the summer of 2024 as a multi-season "entrenched" starting point guard, heading into his physical prime at age 26.

Plus there's a good chance with Paolo and Franz and Suggs all continuing to get better + Isaac health + lotto picks + possible free agent signings that the Magic don't start 5-20 next year and end up with a winning record. This could happen in spite of Fultz's limitations IMO.

He ain't taking a pay cut from the Magic to remain the starting PG.

Now he might end up getting less than that if they play hard ball with him and let him walk, but he and his agent are going to seek a raise and feel completely justified in doing so.

[shadrock]

To me we need to make a trade. Assuming we dont land a top two pick, Id personally be willing to trade our two picks in 2023 and a starter (WCJ/Fultz) to significantly upgrade at PG, SG or C.

[ogmagicfan]

Nothing would make me happier than something clicking and he starts routinely scoring 20 ppg and becoming just enough of a threat from deep that he must be defended...I loved the initial trade, I love his personality and playing style, I love the patience and support we've shown, I love almost everything about his game, if he starts shooting (not Steph, just enough to be a factor) and looks anything like a #1 overall pick - I'd be the biggest Fultz fan there is. My urgency with doing something about him is due to his contract status and our really promising young team looking like they could be on the cusp of taking a big leap with the right leader. Would be great to see that our FO's long bet on Fultz paid off in a major way, but it's not realistic to say it has and we are faced with an exit strategy in the form of his non-guaranteed contract in a summer where we could do some big things.

We've been really patient and hopeful for years now...sometimes you've got to take the loss and move on.

I feel the same.

If we have confidence we can get FVV & another archetype we need (shooter or physical rebounding big) we should go get them and release Fultz.

Question is, whats the deadline for when we have to make the decision to keep Fultz for next year?

Free agency starts on July 6th

July 1st, and they likely won't be waiving him. I could see him accepting like a 3 year $45M extension. It would be tempting for him to sign for that amount rather than risk injury.

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If they keep him, I highly doubt they'll gove him an extension offer. Rather see how the year plays out with Fultz, Suggs, Cole, draft picks that are guards, & potentially FVV.

The Magic will be going hard at FVV, the only noteworthy names in free agency at guard we could go after in 2024 that could want to leave is Dejounte Murray. After that year the cap space is completely gone with rookie extensions

[ogmagicfan]

What do you think he's going to use to justify it?

If he starts at point guard next season, then he'll go into the summer of 2024 as a multi-season "entrenched" starting point guard, heading into his physical prime at age 26.

Plus there's a good chance with Paolo and Franz and Suggs all continuing to get better + Isaac health + lotto picks + possible free agent signings that the Magic don't start 5-20 next year and end up with a winning record. This could happen in spite of Fultz's limitations IMO.

He ain't taking a pay cut from the Magic to remain the starting PG.

Now he might end up getting less than that if they play hard ball with him and let him walk, but he and his agent are going to seek a raise and feel completely justified in doing so.

Just because they feel justified doesn't mean he'll warrent it on the market.

I don't see a player who was elite in finishing at the rim but has regressed in percentage in finishing to below avg, a poor FT rate even though he attacks the rim more than the average, and non existent 3 pt shoot getting 20 mil on the market

[anothermagicfan]

We are not going to agree on this. For example, the per 36 lines of Fultz and Suggs this season strongly favours Fultz Player Comparison: Markelle Fultz vs. Jalen Suggs

And the W-L record also strongly favours Fultz.

Really it is just the salary line that separates the conversation. Until Suggs develops some sort of an offensive game, he is a liability to me, when he is on the court.

I love all the information the Basketball Reference website provides us, but I think it's also caused a lot of brain drain when it comes to NBA analysis.

And respectfully, citing the team's record with Fultz and choosing to ignore the context that...

Anthony also missed 16 consecutive games from 10/28 to 11/30
Harris also missed 27 of the first 33 games from 10/19 to 12/23
Carter also missed 18 of 19 games from 11/16 to 12/23
Isaac also didn't even start playing until January 23rd, missing the first 46 games

Like look at what the rotation was in October and November during the dregs of that 5-20 stretch.

Guys like Hampton, Bamba, Schofield, K. Harris, Ross were not only playing, they were playing significant minutes.

So to credit the turnaround to Fultz is rather disingenuous when four other rotation players also returned all around roughly the same time.

There's mountains of evidence that says the team plays worse when Fultz is on the court compared to when he's off the court. If you don't want to accept that, that's your business, but it doesn't make it inaccurate information.

There is a history of the magic playing winning basketball with Fultz on the floor. See a few years ago he was the starting point guard and made the playoffs. I will give Cole credit that he has shown some improvements this year but remember last season when we were actively tanking. Intentionally losing. You know a key part of that was by starting Cole in all 65 games he played. Now how about this season. Thow out the first 20 games and that will bring to December 7 and the start of a 7 game win streak and I think 9 out of 10 games won. That December 7 game was fultz's 5th game back. Also during that stretch Carter and Harris were still out.

Saying fultz doesn't lead to winning basketball is just ridiculous. Now he hasn't shown himself to lead to dominating or anything but he is a big part of the winning here.