Was Jordan's supporting cast in 1997-98 weak?

[VanWest82]

I thought the comparison was 2007 LeBron and 1998 Jordan supporting cast. I don't really care for comparing the supporting casts of 2009 LeBron [as 2009 LeBron was significantly better than 1998 Jordan] to 1998 Jordan.

FWIW, all 20 of the Top Line-ups for the 2007 Cavaliers contained LeBron

Same for 2007 LeBron then, yes? Especially guys like Eric Snow and Drew Gooden--who was historically bad without LeBron.

Drew Gooden played 1994 of his 2238 minutes in 2007 with LeBron James. In those 1994 minutes, LeBron + Gooden were +2.0 Points/100. In the 244 minutes without sharing the court with LeBron James, he was -9 Points/100.

Agree that it depends which team we're comparing to. I'd say 98 Bulls had a better supporting cast than 06, 07, 08 Cavs but not 09 Cavs.

[HeartBreakKid]

The 09 Cavs were pretty incredible. Delonte West 3rd in minutes by a large margin, who could ask for more? The league was lucky he missed 20 games.

[VanWest82]

It's also impossible to compare the 90's Bulls to the 00's Cavs without taking into account the differences in coaching and systems being used. Coaching is probably the most underrated aspect of everything on this board tbh because we focus so much on players.

I don't think it's that underrated. The players make almost all the difference. One thing that has turned out to be underrated, however, is Mike Brown. The way Cavs fans griped about him until he was fired, one would've thought he was the worst coach alive as appose to a pretty solid defensive coach who a young and overly-confident Lebron routinely ignored, but who seemed to get quite a bit out of unheralded types, especially defensively. Now he's back at the helm of a team with one of the most exciting offenses in the league. That guy has proven to be a hell of a coach.

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't think it's that underrated. The players make almost all the difference. One thing that has turned out to be underrated, however, is Mike Brown. The way Cavs fans griped about him until he was fired, one would've thought he was the worst coach alive as appose to a pretty solid defensive coach who a young and overly-confident Lebron routinely ignored, but who seemed to get quite a bit out of unheralded types, especially defensively. Now he's back at the helm of a team with one of the most exciting offenses in the league. That guy has proven to be a hell of a coach.

Dude... you do realize that coaches improve just like players do right? Mike Brown had major weaknesses as a coach in terms of offense and making adjustments back in his Cavs days which was still there when he got the Laker job. Just because he's gotten better in some ways doesn't mean you magically say he was underrated back then. Just as some players learn to play defense later on but that doesn't mean they were somehow better at it before. Part of it also is how coaches build staffs. Phil had very good coaches beneath him also. So having said all that, yes I do think coaches are hugely underrated on here. This isn't about LeBron or MJ to me, its about understanding how coaches like Kerr or Budenholzer can come in and turn teams around almost completely in one season. Its because coaching matters.

[Colbinii]

I thought the comparison was 2007 LeBron and 1998 Jordan supporting cast. I don't really care for comparing the supporting casts of 2009 LeBron [as 2009 LeBron was significantly better than 1998 Jordan] to 1998 Jordan.

FWIW, all 20 of the Top Line-ups for the 2007 Cavaliers contained LeBron

Same for 2007 LeBron then, yes? Especially guys like Eric Snow and Drew Gooden--who was historically bad without LeBron.

Drew Gooden played 1994 of his 2238 minutes in 2007 with LeBron James. In those 1994 minutes, LeBron + Gooden were +2.0 Points/100. In the 244 minutes without sharing the court with LeBron James, he was -9 Points/100.

Agree that it depends which team we're comparing to. I'd say 98 Bulls had a better supporting cast than 06, 07, 08 Cavs but not 09 Cavs.

I guess it depends who you prefer.

In a vacuum I prefer Kukoc to Mo WIlliams, Varejao/West compared to Rodman/Harper is close [most prefer Rodman/Harper due to defense] and then you have Big Z/Gibson to Longley/Kerr and then the wildcards [Pippen to Ben Wallace/Joe Smith].

I easily prefer the Bulls supporting cast here.

Both Pippen and Kukoc were significantly better at playing basketball than any 2 Cavaliers players outside of LeBron. So, even if someone believes the Cavaliers are slightly better for the regular season due to Pippen missing games, the gap in the playoff rosters isn't comparable in any sense--at all.

[TheGOATRises007]

Arguably weak historically and definitely the weakest of those title teams.

Better than the 07 Cavs, 08 Cavs and 09 Cavs though.

I think the 09 Cavs supporting cast is generally a bit underrated(not to call it great or anything), but it's wholly flawed as a championship supporting cast.

[VanWest82]

I guess it depends who you prefer.

In a vacuum I prefer Kukoc to Mo WIlliams, Varejao/West compared to Rodman/Harper is close [most prefer Rodman/Harper due to defense] and then you have Big Z/Gibson to Longley/Kerr and then the wildcards [Pippen to Ben Wallace/Joe Smith].

I easily prefer the Bulls supporting cast here.

Both Pippen and Kukoc were significantly better at playing basketball than any 2 Cavaliers players outside of LeBron. So, even if someone believes the Cavaliers are slightly better for the regular season due to Pippen missing games, the gap in the playoff rosters isn't comparable in any sense--at all.

I don't think the bolded part is accurate. Mo Williams was a good player. He was better than Kukoc at least offensively.

I think it probably goes like this: 98 Bulls cast had a slightly higher ceiling but only got there when both Scottie and Dennis got there, which rarely happened at the same time at not at the important parts. 98 Bulls took it in shifts.

The thing 09 Cavs supporting cast had on that 98 team was depth. They went three quality bigs deep for while there plus whatever you considered Joe Smith. It was a formidable defensive front line. And yeah, Orlando spread them out and Dwight got them with Wallace banged up. They might've gotten 2010 Lakers too if things had gone differently.

98 Bulls were lucky not to get bounced by Pacers. Sometimes a team gets hot on you and a guy like Mickael Pietrus, Lebron's guy, helps shoot you out of a series. It doesn't mean the supporting cast that helped win you 66 games is no longer comparable to some of the lesser supporting casts of championship teams.

[VanWest82]

Dude... you do realize that coaches improve just like players do right? Mike Brown had major weaknesses as a coach in terms of offense and making adjustments back in his Cavs days which was still there when he got the Laker job. Just because he's gotten better in some ways doesn't mean you magically say he was underrated back then. Just as some players learn to play defense later on but that doesn't mean they were somehow better at it before. Part of it also is how coaches build staffs. Phil had very good coaches beneath him also. So having said all that, yes I do think coaches are hugely underrated on here. This isn't about LeBron or MJ to me, its about understanding how coaches like Kerr or Budenholzer can come in and turn teams around almost completely in one season. Its because coaching matters.

Phil made one adjustment in 90 and had MJ + Pip bought in after that. From there, it was way more about controlling egos than any adjustments. I guess you could argue this was one area where Brown was weak because he didn't get buy in from Lebron. I'd argue that Lebron can be difficult to coach offensively given what we've seen throughout his career. It seems to be his way or the highway a lot of the time. Brown took a Cavs team that was was outside the top 10 and made it a top 5 defense. He may have had some misgivings but he was a good coach even back then.

[Colbinii]

I guess it depends who you prefer.

In a vacuum I prefer Kukoc to Mo WIlliams, Varejao/West compared to Rodman/Harper is close [most prefer Rodman/Harper due to defense] and then you have Big Z/Gibson to Longley/Kerr and then the wildcards [Pippen to Ben Wallace/Joe Smith].

I easily prefer the Bulls supporting cast here.

Both Pippen and Kukoc were significantly better at playing basketball than any 2 Cavaliers players outside of LeBron. So, even if someone believes the Cavaliers are slightly better for the regular season due to Pippen missing games, the gap in the playoff rosters isn't comparable in any sense--at all.

I don't think the bolded part is accurate. Mo Williams was a good player. He was better than Kukoc at least offensively.

On what basis?

Mo Williams posted 2 career 2+ OBPM seasons in his entire career [2 BPM is a good starter]. Both of these seasons were achieved because of the gravity of LeBron James [2009 and 2010 seasons]. He is a 6' 1", no defensive guard.

Toni Kukoc has 6 seasons in his career at 2+ OBPM or higher, with multiple seasons at 3+ and a brilliant season [1996] at 4.6 OBPM [All-star level] while Kukoc was a positive defender. As an offensive force, he provided a triple threat attack on-ball with good [great?] playmaking from the Wing.

1998 RAPM has Kukoc at #7 in the entire NBA and Ron Harper #8 [with the rest of the Top 10 filled with good role players and superstars].

I can't buy Mo Williams being a better offensive player than Kukoc by any stretch of the imagination.

[Cavsfansince84]

Phil made one adjustment in 90 and had MJ + Pip bought in after that. From there, it was way more about controlling egos than any adjustments. I guess you could argue this was one area where Brown was weak because he didn't get buy in from Lebron. I'd argue that Lebron can be difficult to coach offensively given what we've seen throughout his career. It seems to be his way or the highway a lot of the time. Brown took a Cavs team that was was outside the top 10 and made it a top 5 defense. He may have had some misgivings but he was a good coach even back then.

So on one hand you say coaches barely do anything, then you say he made the Cavs into a top 5 defense. I mean, that's a bit inconsistent but defense was supposed to be what he was good at. As a Cavs fan, I didn't like Brown then and I think a better coach could have gotten better results in those playoffs. I'm not really in the mood to revisit all of this though. If you want to think he was given some unfair amount of blame or criticism then by all means do so.

[VanWest82]

On what basis?

Mo Williams posted 2 career 2+ OBPM seasons in his entire career [2 BPM is a good starter]. Both of these seasons were achieved because of the gravity of LeBron James [2009 and 2010 seasons]. He is a 6' 1", no defensive guard.

Toni Kukoc has 6 seasons in his career at 2+ OBPM or higher, with multiple seasons at 3+ and a brilliant season [1996] at 4.6 OBPM [All-star level] while Kukoc was a positive defender. As an offensive force, he provided a triple threat attack on-ball with good [great?] playmaking from the Wing.

1998 RAPM has Kukoc at #7 in the entire NBA and Ron Harper #8 [with the rest of the Top 10 filled with good role players and superstars].

I can't buy Mo Williams being a better offensive player than Kukoc by any stretch of the imagination.

Again, throw out those RAPM numbers because of the line ups. Kukoc and Harper played all their mins with MJ whereas MJ played a bunch without them + end of bench guys.

We're not talking about 96 Kukoc who got to play with much better versions of MJ, Pippen, and Rodman. He was an all star role player which is why his BPM looks better. Notice how it drops in 98 along with his TS when has to take on more defensive attention (albeit not as much as Mo)?

MJ was the one who provided all the gravity because he was always on the floor. Mo carried his own line ups in 09 and had a bigger offensive load. That alone should prove who was the better offensive player. I concede the defensive side of it.

[Colbinii]

On what basis?

Mo Williams posted 2 career 2+ OBPM seasons in his entire career [2 BPM is a good starter]. Both of these seasons were achieved because of the gravity of LeBron James [2009 and 2010 seasons]. He is a 6' 1", no defensive guard.

Toni Kukoc has 6 seasons in his career at 2+ OBPM or higher, with multiple seasons at 3+ and a brilliant season [1996] at 4.6 OBPM [All-star level] while Kukoc was a positive defender. As an offensive force, he provided a triple threat attack on-ball with good [great?] playmaking from the Wing.

1998 RAPM has Kukoc at #7 in the entire NBA and Ron Harper #8 [with the rest of the Top 10 filled with good role players and superstars].

I can't buy Mo Williams being a better offensive player than Kukoc by any stretch of the imagination.

Again, throw out those RAPM numbers because of the line ups. Kukoc and Harper played all their mins with MJ whereas MJ played a bunch without them + end of bench guys.

We're not talking about 96 Kukoc who got to play with much better versions of MJ, Pippen, and Rodman. He was an all star role player which is why his BPM looks better. Notice how it drops in 98 along with his TS when has to take on more defensive attention (albeit not as much as Mo)?

MJ was the one who provided all the gravity because he was always on the floor. Mo carried his own line ups in 09 and had a bigger offensive load. That alone should prove who was the better offensive player. I concede the defensive side of it.

Yeah this is just bad faith, have a nice night.

[LukaTheGOAT]

One way to measure supporting cast is by looking at AuPM/G.

Based on the slightly older AuPM/G, that incorporates season long on/off and the box-score, I think you can get an understanding of what guys are working with.

The stat goes back to 97. When calculating supporting cast, I want to mention that Cast = Relative AuPM value of the 2nd through the 8th-best player on a team, among players who logged at least 40 percent of team’s minutes. Value is relative to +0.75.


Per the stat:

"LeBron took the two worst supporting casts to the Finals during this stretch, the 2018 Cavs (AuPM of -3.6 PS Cast Strength) and the 2007 Cavs (-2.8 in PS Cast Strength) ...LeBron’s Cavs are the weakest supporting unit to even reach a conference final in this period." -Ben Taylor

Looking at the 06-09 Period, we can look at the overall cast strength during the RS for a bigger sample.

The Cavs in terms of RS Cast Strength

06: -1.4
07: -0.3
08: -2.6
09: +4.8

The Bulls in terms of RS Cast Strength

97: +8.3 (You didn't ask for 97, but I will share it because I think it highlights my point)
98: +8.6

Keeping in mind that a 0 is supposed to be a league average cast, one could argue that from at least 06-08, Lebron perhaps had below average help. I think the Cavs had good defensive personnel overall, however the offensive help was lacking, but how you weigh that is up to you. The Bulls arguably had better defensive personnel, then the Cavs, however that defensive personnel, had more offensive chops to go along with it.


The 98 Bulls had a relatively similar roster to the 97 team in overall team strength, however they were a year older and bit more beat up by injuries however. Nonetheless, the Bulls help eclipses the Cavs' helps by multiple standard deviations under this measure.

[HeartBreakKid]

On what basis?

Mo Williams posted 2 career 2+ OBPM seasons in his entire career [2 BPM is a good starter]. Both of these seasons were achieved because of the gravity of LeBron James [2009 and 2010 seasons]. He is a 6' 1", no defensive guard.

Toni Kukoc has 6 seasons in his career at 2+ OBPM or higher, with multiple seasons at 3+ and a brilliant season [1996] at 4.6 OBPM [All-star level] while Kukoc was a positive defender. As an offensive force, he provided a triple threat attack on-ball with good [great?] playmaking from the Wing.

1998 RAPM has Kukoc at #7 in the entire NBA and Ron Harper #8 [with the rest of the Top 10 filled with good role players and superstars].

I can't buy Mo Williams being a better offensive player than Kukoc by any stretch of the imagination.

Again, throw out those RAPM numbers because of the line ups. Kukoc and Harper played all their mins with MJ whereas MJ played a bunch without them + end of bench guys.

We're not talking about 96 Kukoc who got to play with much better versions of MJ, Pippen, and Rodman. He was an all star role player which is why his BPM looks better. Notice how it drops in 98 along with his TS when has to take on more defensive attention (albeit not as much as Mo)?

MJ was the one who provided all the gravity because he was always on the floor. Mo carried his own line ups in 09 and had a bigger offensive load. That alone should prove who was the better offensive player. I concede the defensive side of it.

RAPM doesnt count because they're playing with great players. You really think you can make something like that up and people aren't going to know?


Your assessment as usual is just baseless. Your entire argument is "they're not that good, MJ is that good" and your reasoning is "because MJ is good". This is almost as bad as your "no one in 1986 said this when I was two years old" arguments.


And with this you've officially graduated to my growing ignore list.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I've been having a discussion with residents NBA expert MavsDirk about supporting casts. He's arguing that MJ's supporting cast that season is similar to what LeBron was working with from 2006-2009. I simply don't agree. His argument is below.

I think we have been over this before but here we go again: Pippen missed half the season with an injury. Without Pippen the only other Bulls players in double figures besides Jordan was Kukoc (13ppg) and Longley (11ppg). Rodman was outstanding on the boards but gave them no offense. Jordan carried that team in the regular season with Pippen out. In the finals Jordan averaged 34ppg while Pippen avg 16ppg and Kukoc 15ppg. This was Pippens worst regular season and finals with the Bulls imo. In his 4 finals victorys (James that is) name a second fiddle that James had who was worse than 98 Pippen. You also mentioned Longley and Kerr as part of a solid supporting cast. Ok. Are they worse than Mo Williams, Mario Chalmers, Tristian Thompson, or the Birdman? Im not taking away from what James did in 07 but its been done before by other alltime greats. And yes, consider ive been watching the nba since 87 im pretty sure i watched 90s nba. You get on here and insult people who disagree with your opinion on lebron james. Reality is not everbody views him or his career the same as you.

I personally think MJ had a good supporting cast. Pippen was still effective, despite the injuries. Kukoc was in his prime. Rodman was putting up 15 RPG. Longley, Kerr, Harper are damn good complimentary pieces IMO. The team was a top defensive team that year as well.

Don’t worry he definately isn’t an expert

[VanWest82]

RAPM doesnt count because they're playing with great players.

Not even close to what I said. Your reading comprehension as usual is a mystery.

You really think you can make something like that up and people aren't going to know?

I think it wouldn't matter what I say you wouldn't attempt to actually understand it before discarding.

Your entire argument is "they're not that good, MJ is that good" and your reasoning is "because MJ is good".

Again, not even close to what I said. I'm sensing a pattern.

This is almost as bad as your "no one in 1986 said this when I was two years old" arguments.

Ah yes, let's go back to the part where you pretend to tell me how old I am even though you have no **** clue. That's always fun.

And with this you've officially graduated to my growing ignore list.

I don't have a single person on my ignore list. When it comes to posters like yourself, I just don't bother reading or engaging unless they quote me with a bunch of utter nonsense that requires some amount of clarification. I'd prefer you just stop doing that rather than adding me to whatever list.

[OhayoKD]

One way to measure supporting cast is by looking at AuPM/G.

Based on the slightly older AuPM/G, that incorporates season long on/off and the box-score, I think you can get an understanding of what guys are working with.

The stat goes back to 97. When calculating supporting cast, I want to mention that Cast = Relative AuPM value of the 2nd through the 8th-best player on a team, among players who logged at least 40 percent of team’s minutes. Value is relative to +0.75.


Per the stat:

"LeBron took the two worst supporting casts to the Finals during this stretch, the 2018 Cavs (AuPM of -3.6 PS Cast Strength) and the 2007 Cavs (-2.8 in PS Cast Strength) ...LeBron’s Cavs are the weakest supporting unit to even reach a conference final in this period." -Ben Taylor

Looking at the 06-09 Period, we can look at the overall cast strength during the RS for a bigger sample.

The Cavs in terms of RS Cast Strength

06: -1.4
07: -0.3
08: -2.6
09: +4.8

The Bulls in terms of RS Cast Strength

97: +8.3 (You didn't ask for 97, but I will share it because I think it highlights my point)
98: +8.6

Keeping in mind that a 0 is supposed to be a league average cast, one could argue that from at least 06-08, Lebron perhaps had below average help. I think the Cavs had good defensive personnel overall, however the offensive help was lacking, but how you weigh that is up to you. The Bulls arguably had better defensive personnel, then the Cavs, however that defensive personnel, had more offensive chops to go along with it.


The 98 Bulls had a relatively similar roster to the 97 team in overall team strength, however they were a year older and bit more beat up by injuries however. Nonetheless, the Bulls help eclipses the Cavs' helps by multiple standard deviations under this measure.

Some Caveats:

A. Box-score doesn't really account for defensive stuff. Notably the pre-09 cavs weren't significantly affected by Lebron's absence defensively, while the 2009/2010 cavs collapsed
B. Box-score isn't really going to be able to account for how various players influence each's other counting numbers. This is true with both defense(blocks/steals) and offense(ppg, apg, ect)


This is part of why it's good to look at how a team performs "without" a player. And here I think we get a different picture regarding the 09/10 cavs cast:

From 08-10, LeBron missed 14 games. Here are the results:
With: .737 win% +5.81 MOV
Without: 1-13 (.071 win%) (-7.68 MOV)
Difference: .666 win%, +13.67 MOV

Defense:

On court: 100.6 D rating (-7.7 relative to league average)
Off court: 108.8 D rating (+0.5 rel to LA)
Difference: -8.2 (According to BasketballValue.com, that difference is the 2nd highest in the league behind Pryzbilla)

Obvious caveat here is that the sample is tiny. Luckily, we can extend this sample and...

n 21 games with a similar group of players, they played at an anemic 18-win pace (-8.9 SRS) before injuries ravaged their lineup.

For the season they finished at 19 wins and -8.88 SRS. Notably a big chunk of this drop-off came on the defensive side(recall that the second best defender on those teams was Ben Wallace, who played 28 mpg before missing 30 games(the injury more or less ended his career as a useful player), before leaving in 2010. The 2011 Cavs were 7 points worse defensively, tracking with the 8-point drop from our teeny-tiny 14 game sample.

Lebron grades out as the "impact king" post Russell because he combines top-tier offensive lift(reflected in top-tier box-stuff), with top-tier(for a non-big) defensive elevation. I've posted the holistics, but let's hone in on some of the granulars:

LeBron is also 3rd in FG%, 4th in 3P%, and 3rd in eFG%.

Here is what some of the top SF of 2009 did vs LeBron offensively (their regular season per 36 in parenthesis)

Durant- 16.4 PPG, .518 TS% (23.3 PPG, .577 TS%)
Pierce- 18.1 PPG, .474 TS% (19.7 PPG, .582 TS%)
Johnson- 13.7 PPG, .475 TS% (19.5 PPG, .534 TS%)
Carmelo- 15.8 PPG, .488 TS% (23.8 PPG, .532 TS%)
Butler- 14.2 PPG, .438 TS% (19.4 PPG, .552 TS%)
Gay- 10.9 PPG, .357 TS% (18.3 PPG, .528 TS%)
Average dropoff: -5.8 PPG, -9.3 TS%

What’s amazing is that when faced Cleveland and LeBron was off the court, they dominated:

The 6 SF’s stats when (Per 36):
LeBron on court: 15.1 PPG, .461 TS%, 3.3 Reb, 3.6 AST-3.4 TOV, -9.4 +/-
LeBron off court: 24.6 PPG, .596 TS%, 5.9 Reb, 2.3 AST-1.8 TOV, +0.9 +/-

That is a 9.5 points per 36 and 13.5 TS% difference.

I've seen people question Lebron's defense in the ensuing postseason(the cavs remain elite overall, but their d-rating tanks vs red-hot orlando shooting), but er...

LeBron continued playing elite man defense. Here are how some of his guys did when LeBron was on the court (per 36 minutes):

Tayshaun Prince: 3.9 PPG, .260 TS%
Joe Johnson: 15.3 PPG, .480 TS%
Marvin Williams: 5.8 PPG, .337 TS%
Dropoff from regular season averages: -7.6 PPG, -18.1 TS%

Defensive stats from Hoopsstats.com for his position:
17.3 pts/game allowed (1st in league) (13.2 points per 36 minutes)
41.2 FG% allowed (1st)
15.1 FGA allowed (2nd fewest)
16.6 Efficiency allowed (1st)
1.3 Offensive rebounds allowed (3rd)

+2.8 Defensive RAPM [2nd among qualifying perimeter players (Artest)]

Will add that via Blocked's film-tracking Lebron also contested/deterred Dwight in the paint 22 times, lagging a bit behind what Pippen did vs Ewing in 1994(Grant was oddly positioned all series).

Honestly, comparing this to 97/98 is wild, when, at least by evidence beyond non-predictive box-aggregates, the 09/10 Cavs don't really even stack up to the 1984 Bulls. Yeah those bulls were bad on offense, but they were a functional defense and overall were significantly better overall(28-wins, -4.68 SRS).

The 97/98 Bulls were fine without Jordan from what we have, and while Rodman and Pippen may have been diminished from 94-96(at least in the regular season), we should keep in mind what was diminished in the first place:

The 1995 Bulls played at a 53-win pace(per srs which is more predictive and adjusts for opponent quality) without their best and third best player? The 1994 Bulls, at full strength(pippen and grant missed time) played like a 58-win team and elevated signficantly in the playoffs(+5 to +8).

I realize the cavs doing so well with seemingly limited support may not fit so neatly into some of our priors, but I imagine at least some of the performance is simply a product of Lebron being a much better defender.

[Homer38]

Again,never Dwight Howard would dominate the front court of the 1998 bulls like he did vs cavs in 2009.It was a massive difference

[OhayoKD]

Again,never Dwight Howard would dominate the front court of the 1998 bulls like he did vs cavs in 2009.It was a massive difference

Eh. Dwight is alot harder to stop at the rim than Karl Malone.

[Owly]

I guess it depends who you prefer.

In a vacuum I prefer Kukoc to Mo WIlliams, Varejao/West compared to Rodman/Harper is close [most prefer Rodman/Harper due to defense] and then you have Big Z/Gibson to Longley/Kerr and then the wildcards [Pippen to Ben Wallace/Joe Smith].

I easily prefer the Bulls supporting cast here.

Both Pippen and Kukoc were significantly better at playing basketball than any 2 Cavaliers players outside of LeBron. So, even if someone believes the Cavaliers are slightly better for the regular season due to Pippen missing games, the gap in the playoff rosters isn't comparable in any sense--at all.

I don't think the bolded part is accurate. Mo Williams was a good player. He was better than Kukoc at least offensively.

I think it probably goes like this: 98 Bulls cast had a slightly higher ceiling but only got there when both Scottie and Dennis got there, which rarely happened at the same time at not at the important parts. 98 Bulls took it in shifts.

The thing 09 Cavs supporting cast had on that 98 team was depth. They went three quality bigs deep for while there plus whatever you considered Joe Smith. It was a formidable defensive front line. And yeah, Orlando spread them out and Dwight got them with Wallace banged up. They might've gotten 2010 Lakers too if things had gone differently.

98 Bulls were lucky not to get bounced by Pacers. Sometimes a team gets hot on you and a guy like Mickael Pietrus, Lebron's guy, helps shoot you out of a series. It doesn't mean the supporting cast that helped win you 66 games is no longer comparable to some of the lesser supporting casts of championship teams.

Yes the thing the '09 team had over the '98 Bulls is depth. That's why those without LeBron lineups are so great. Because the bench players are about as good as the starter units LeBron plays with, plus they get to play the new fangled (super effective) without superstar lineups where Mo Williams will surely keep them afloat.... he'll "carry" them ... they'll be fine without LeBron ...

No? ... It's probably because LeBron holding the ball too long made Williams forget the star he was elsewhere perhaps he made Wally Szczerbiak a defensive turnstile, limited Daniel Gibson's development...