Fultz: Ranked #29 out of 30 Point Guard

[eyriq]

I am interested in how the Forum feels here...

I've seen 2-3 articles where Fultz was ranked #29 of 30 point guards in the league.

From a national standpoint, is he really that bad?

Thanks

Example: Top NBA point guards for 2022-23: Ranking all 30 starters

Going through the list, yes I would have Fultz above the 29 he is listed at. For example, Fultz is better than Lonzo Ball, who is physically incapable of playing basketball.


But interestingly, sorting on RAPTOR (which has players that only sometimes are PGs in its sort), Fultz is the 58th "best" PG.
THat's the pepe narrative that Fultz is not a starting quality guard for the NBA.


Finally, by qualified PER, Fultz is the 18th best PG.


So: what is it? It is interesting how different RAPTOR and PER are in ranking lists. Very poor overlap between them.

..

PER is basically just a volume stat, how much pure numbers are you producing? And it favors certain stats too. It’s a very old and primitive stat and no one who messes with advanced stats even glances at it now (people definitely use some other faulty stats but will say ‘I know it has X limitations’ but PER is less respected and literally doesn’t get cited at all anymore).

PER is great as an index of productivity per possession.

[Skybox]

Going through the list, yes I would have Fultz above the 29 he is listed at. For example, Fultz is better than Lonzo Ball, who is physically incapable of playing basketball.


..[/quote]

This is a terrible attempt by that logic, Bol is a much better PG than Ball too…because he’s not injured.

Ball, when healthy, is a fantastic player…look at CHI flailing without him

[HotelVitale]

Example: Top NBA point guards for 2022-23: Ranking all 30 starters

Going through the list, yes I would have Fultz above the 29 he is listed at. For example, Fultz is better than Lonzo Ball, who is physically incapable of playing basketball.


But interestingly, sorting on RAPTOR (which has players that only sometimes are PGs in its sort), Fultz is the 58th "best" PG.
THat's the pepe narrative that Fultz is not a starting quality guard for the NBA.


Finally, by qualified PER, Fultz is the 18th best PG.


So: what is it? It is interesting how different RAPTOR and PER are in ranking lists. Very poor overlap between them.

..

PER is basically just a volume stat, how much pure numbers are you producing? And it favors certain stats too. It’s a very old and primitive stat and no one who messes with advanced stats even glances at it now (people definitely use some other faulty stats but will say ‘I know it has X limitations’ but PER is less respected and literally doesn’t get cited at all anymore).

PER is great as an index of productivity per possession.

Not sure it even does that. It’s so simplistic that it really doesn’t tell you anything other than ‘does this player have more raw counting stats than average?’ It also factors in shooting efficiency heavily…but that means it greatly favors bigs who stand around and dunk or get garbage pts. That’s its most famous flaw—it adores centers who block shots and finish lobs, bigs who just stick to that often show up as all star or even all nba level guys in PER. Even if some are barely hanging on to rotation spots.

In Fultz’s case, his PER just tells you ‘yeah he collects scores, rebounds, assists, and steals about as much as the average PG in the league.’ I guess that’s sort of useful but doesn’t do anything for a conversation about how well he’s doing.

Edit: this year Porzingis is top 20, Capela, Poeltl, and Kessler top 30, and Drummond, Nic Claxton, T Bryant, and W Hernangomez are top 40. All of them (and Mark Williams) are higher than Siakam, Paul George, Jalen Brown, KAT, etc. Fultz is barely lower than Anthony Edwards or Evan Mobley, and is well ahead of Mikal Bridges and Franz. It’s not a great stat.

[ogmagicfan]

Markelle is better than KP Jr., Tre Jones & Russell Westbrook. Those are the only starters when healthy I'd pick him over.

His weaknesses are especially bad on a team like ours considering he doesn't compliment either of Paolo & Franz.

I think he can be a good bench PG when surrounded by shooters

[ogmagicfan]

PER is basically just a volume stat, how much pure numbers are you producing? And it favors certain stats too. It’s a very old and primitive stat and no one who messes with advanced stats even glances at it now (people definitely use some other faulty stats but will say ‘I know it has X limitations’ but PER is less respected and literally doesn’t get cited at all anymore).

PER is great as an index of productivity per possession.

Not sure it even does that. It’s so simplistic that it really doesn’t tell you anything other than ‘does this player have more raw counting stats than average?’ It also factors in shooting efficiency heavily…but that means it greatly favors bigs who stand around and dunk or get garbage pts. That’s its most famous flaw—it adores centers who block shots and finish lobs, bigs who just stick to that often show up as all star or even all nba level guys in PER. Even if some are barely hanging on to rotation spots.

In Fultz’s case, his PER just tells you ‘yeah he collects scores, rebounds, assists, and steals about as much as the average PG in the league.’ I guess that’s sort of useful but doesn’t do anything for a conversation about how well he’s doing.

Edit: this year Porzingis is top 20, Capela, Poeltl, and Kessler top 30, and Drummond, Nic Claxton, T Bryant, and W Hernangomez are top 40. All of them (and Mark Williams) are higher than Siakam, Paul George, Jalen Brown, KAT, etc. Fultz is barely lower than Anthony Edwards or Evan Mobley, and is well ahead of Mikal Bridges and Franz. It’s not a great stat.

PER absolutely favors bigs

[fendilim]

Markelle is better than KP Jr., Tre Jones & Russell Westbrook. Those are the only starters when healthy I'd pick him over.

His weaknesses are especially bad on a team like ours considering he doesn't compliment either of Paolo & Franz.

I think he can be a good bench PG when surrounded by shooters

Markelle would be really good off the bench player. His weakness will be masked against 2nd teams.

That’s why guys like Jamal Crawford, Lou Williams plays a vital role to their team despite the lack of defense.

[zaymon]

Markelle is better than KP Jr., Tre Jones & Russell Westbrook. Those are the only starters when healthy I'd pick him over.

His weaknesses are especially bad on a team like ours considering he doesn't compliment either of Paolo & Franz.

I think he can be a good bench PG when surrounded by shooters

Markelle would be really good off the bench player. His weakness will be masked against 2nd teams.

That’s why guys like Jamal Crawford, Lou Williams plays a vital role to their team despite the lack of defense.

Will they really be masked ? Fultz is worse against bench units than against starters. Why ? Becouse there is not enough good players he can hide behind. His flaws are detrimental against anyone and his strength is midrange iso scoring..... If we stagger Franz and Paolo Fultz will be a dead weight even against reserves.

[Audi]

Markelle is better than KP Jr., Tre Jones & Russell Westbrook. Those are the only starters when healthy I'd pick him over.

His weaknesses are especially bad on a team like ours considering he doesn't compliment either of Paolo & Franz.

I think he can be a good bench PG when surrounded by shooters

Markelle would be really good off the bench player. His weakness will be masked against 2nd teams.

That’s why guys like Jamal Crawford, Lou Williams plays a vital role to their team despite the lack of defense.

Will they really be masked ? Fultz is worse against bench units than against starters. Why ? Becouse there is not enough good players he can hide behind. His flaws are detrimental against anyone and his strength is midrange iso scoring..... If we stagger Franz and Paolo Fultz will be a dead weight even against reserves.

So to recap zaymon’s position on Fultz:

He’s PRETENDING being a starting pg when in fact isn’t even bench quality because he’s worse against reserves. He’s hiding behind Paolo, Franz and Wendell, PRETENDING he can generate offense for others because they are good. He’s PRETENDING to have handles but loses the ball in critical moments, so teams just love to let him handle the ball.

Oh, and he’s PRETENDING to have TOS all this time.

[fendilim]

Markelle is better than KP Jr., Tre Jones & Russell Westbrook. Those are the only starters when healthy I'd pick him over.

His weaknesses are especially bad on a team like ours considering he doesn't compliment either of Paolo & Franz.

I think he can be a good bench PG when surrounded by shooters

Markelle would be really good off the bench player. His weakness will be masked against 2nd teams.

That’s why guys like Jamal Crawford, Lou Williams plays a vital role to their team despite the lack of defense.

Will they really be masked ? Fultz is worse against bench units than against starters. Why ? Becouse there is not enough good players he can hide behind. His flaws are detrimental against anyone and his strength is midrange iso scoring..... If we stagger Franz and Paolo Fultz will be a dead weight even against reserves.

I definitely believe he can like Shaun Livingston did.

Just surround him with shooters and let him do the work against the bench unit.

Leave the starting 5 to Paolo, Franz and whoever we pick this draft

[basketballRob]

Markelle is better than KP Jr., Tre Jones & Russell Westbrook. Those are the only starters when healthy I'd pick him over.

His weaknesses are especially bad on a team like ours considering he doesn't compliment either of Paolo & Franz.

I think he can be a good bench PG when surrounded by shooters

Markelle would be really good off the bench player. His weakness will be masked against 2nd teams.

That’s why guys like Jamal Crawford, Lou Williams plays a vital role to their team despite the lack of defense.

Will they really be masked ? Fultz is worse against bench units than against starters. Why ? Becouse there is not enough good players he can hide behind. His flaws are detrimental against anyone and his strength is midrange iso scoring..... If we stagger Franz and Paolo Fultz will be a dead weight even against reserves.

Fultz has been a better player than Paolo this season. I'm just pointing out that we need to stagger players to help Paolo more than Fultz.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[yoyojw17]

This thread is ban worthy. Not falling for this trolling effort but nice try.

lol.... or ... at the least "LOCK" worthy. shouldn't have been a discussion at all since it was based on yeah.... an article that takes into consideration nothing that fultz has done this year.

[Bergmaniac]

Fultz has been a better player than Paolo this season.

Good one.

[yoyojw17]

Markelle would be really good off the bench player. His weakness will be masked against 2nd teams.

That’s why guys like Jamal Crawford, Lou Williams plays a vital role to their team despite the lack of defense.

Will they really be masked ? Fultz is worse against bench units than against starters. Why ? Becouse there is not enough good players he can hide behind. His flaws are detrimental against anyone and his strength is midrange iso scoring..... If we stagger Franz and Paolo Fultz will be a dead weight even against reserves.

So to recap zaymon’s position on Fultz:

He’s PRETENDING being a starting pg when in fact isn’t even bench quality because he’s worse against reserves. He’s hiding behind Paolo, Franz and Wendell, PRETENDING he can generate offense for others because they are good. He’s PRETENDING to have handles but loses the ball in critical moments, so teams just love to let him handle the ball.

Oh, and he’s PRETENDING to have TOS all this time.

lmao.... I'm happy that i wasn't the only one that went.... "Wait... what did he just say?"

Fultz could be an EFFICIENT 20pnt scoring guard in this league... for those that love stats only.... SGA and fultz are not that crazily different. rim to Midrange killers that have shaky 3pnt games. SGA gets to line at a ridiculous rate...but give fultz a handful of extra shots from what he's been doing post allstar break..... he would be there... and his name would be different across the league and even on this board

[Skybox]

Markelle would be really good off the bench player. His weakness will be masked against 2nd teams.

That’s why guys like Jamal Crawford, Lou Williams plays a vital role to their team despite the lack of defense.

Will they really be masked ? Fultz is worse against bench units than against starters. Why ? Becouse there is not enough good players he can hide behind. His flaws are detrimental against anyone and his strength is midrange iso scoring..... If we stagger Franz and Paolo Fultz will be a dead weight even against reserves.

I definitely believe he can like Shaun Livingston did.

Just surround him with shooters and let him do the work against the bench unit.

Leave the starting 5 to Paolo, Franz and whoever we pick this draft

I agree...but nobody was paying Livingston $17m in that role. After we waive him, he will be a nice pickup and probably get $5-7m for a good team. I think that's a good rate for a good backup PG, who isn't a threat to blow up for 30pts on a hot shooting night.

[Skybox]

Will they really be masked ? Fultz is worse against bench units than against starters. Why ? Becouse there is not enough good players he can hide behind. His flaws are detrimental against anyone and his strength is midrange iso scoring..... If we stagger Franz and Paolo Fultz will be a dead weight even against reserves.

So to recap zaymon’s position on Fultz:

He’s PRETENDING being a starting pg when in fact isn’t even bench quality because he’s worse against reserves. He’s hiding behind Paolo, Franz and Wendell, PRETENDING he can generate offense for others because they are good. He’s PRETENDING to have handles but loses the ball in critical moments, so teams just love to let him handle the ball.

Oh, and he’s PRETENDING to have TOS all this time.

lmao.... I'm happy that i wasn't the only one that went.... "Wait... what did he just say?"

Fultz could be an EFFICIENT 20pnt scoring guard in this league... for those that love stats only.... SGA and fultz are not that crazily different. rim to Midrange killers that have shaky 3pnt games. SGA gets to line at a ridiculous rate...but give fultz a handful of extra shots from what he's been doing post allstar break..... he would be there... and his name would be different across the league and even on this board

Fultz HAS the ball in his hands...he dribbles up and fakes penetration and hands it off on the perimeter on most possessions. Do you really think Mosely is holding him back from efficiently scoring 20ppg? He has a few fantastic "why doesn't he do that more often?" drives per game, but it's not like he's being defended as a scoring threat...if he was finishing drives more often, he'd be either scoring 20ppg, getting to the line more than a handful, AND/OR dishing 9 apg as the defense collapses.

It wouldn't be hard to find quotes from me suggesting that Fultz could be doing just that (maybe a year ago)...but I am acknowledging more information and changing my conclusion based on consideration of said info (something severely lacking in America these days-in things a lot more important than NBA stuff). Same goes with Isaac...nobody was more pumped about even a limited Isaac backing up 4/5 for us - that also timed out, IMO. There's a point where digging in your heels to not be wrong starts to look silly.

[Bergmaniac]

Fultz could be an EFFICIENT 20pnt scoring guard in this league... for those that love stats only.... SGA and fultz are not that crazily different. rim to Midrange killers that have shaky 3pnt games. SGA gets to line at a ridiculous rate...but give fultz a handful of extra shots from what he's been doing post allstar break..... he would be there... and his name would be different across the league and even on this board

Sure, just give Fultz a handful of extra shots and he'll be as good as a Top 20 player in the league...

All he'd have to do is increase significantly his scoring efficiency while doubling his volume of shots while being defended like a first option instead of fourth option. No biggie.

[drsd]

PER is basically just a volume stat, how much pure numbers are you producing? And it favors certain stats too. It’s a very old and primitive stat and no one who messes with advanced stats even glances at it now (people definitely use some other faulty stats but will say ‘I know it has X limitations’ but PER is less respected and literally doesn’t get cited at all anymore).

By PER, Fultz is about the 150th best NBA baller, which puts him about the 30th best PG. That sounds essentially correct to me.


..

[drsd]

PER is basically just a volume stat, how much pure numbers are you producing? And it favors certain stats too. It’s a very old and primitive stat and no one who messes with advanced stats even glances at it now (people definitely use some other faulty stats but will say ‘I know it has X limitations’ but PER is less respected and literally doesn’t get cited at all anymore).

By PER, Fultz is about the 150th best NBA baller, which puts him about the 30th best PG. That sounds essentially correct to me.


..

[ogmagicfan]

Will they really be masked ? Fultz is worse against bench units than against starters. Why ? Becouse there is not enough good players he can hide behind. His flaws are detrimental against anyone and his strength is midrange iso scoring..... If we stagger Franz and Paolo Fultz will be a dead weight even against reserves.

So to recap zaymon’s position on Fultz:

He’s PRETENDING being a starting pg when in fact isn’t even bench quality because he’s worse against reserves. He’s hiding behind Paolo, Franz and Wendell, PRETENDING he can generate offense for others because they are good. He’s PRETENDING to have handles but loses the ball in critical moments, so teams just love to let him handle the ball.

Oh, and he’s PRETENDING to have TOS all this time.

lmao.... I'm happy that i wasn't the only one that went.... "Wait... what did he just say?"

Fultz could be an EFFICIENT 20pnt scoring guard in this league... for those that love stats only.... SGA and fultz are not that crazily different. rim to Midrange killers that have shaky 3pnt games. SGA gets to line at a ridiculous rate...but give fultz a handful of extra shots from what he's been doing post allstar break..... he would be there... and his name would be different across the league and even on this board

There is no way you just compared Fultz with SGA.....

SGA doesn't take 3's because he doesn't need to, not because he isn't capable. Teams aren't playing him from the paint when he has the ball at the 3pt line.

SGA's FT Rate is .527

Fultz FT Rate is an abysmal .231

Fultz could take over double the shots SGA takes in a game, and still not get to the FT line as much

[zaymon]

So to recap zaymon’s position on Fultz:

He’s PRETENDING being a starting pg when in fact isn’t even bench quality because he’s worse against reserves. He’s hiding behind Paolo, Franz and Wendell, PRETENDING he can generate offense for others because they are good. He’s PRETENDING to have handles but loses the ball in critical moments, so teams just love to let him handle the ball.

Oh, and he’s PRETENDING to have TOS all this time.

lmao.... I'm happy that i wasn't the only one that went.... "Wait... what did he just say?"

Fultz could be an EFFICIENT 20pnt scoring guard in this league... for those that love stats only.... SGA and fultz are not that crazily different. rim to Midrange killers that have shaky 3pnt games. SGA gets to line at a ridiculous rate...but give fultz a handful of extra shots from what he's been doing post allstar break..... he would be there... and his name would be different across the league and even on this board

Fultz HAS the ball in his hands...he dribbles up and fakes penetration and hands it off on the perimeter on most possessions. Do you really think Mosely is holding him back from efficiently scoring 20ppg? He has a few fantastic "why doesn't he do that more often?" drives per game, but it's not like he's being defended as a scoring threat...if he was finishing drives more often, he'd be either scoring 20ppg, getting to the line more than a handful, AND/OR dishing 9 apg as the defense collapses.

It wouldn't be hard to find quotes from me suggesting that Fultz could be doing just that (maybe a year ago)...but I am acknowledging more information and changing my conclusion based on consideration of said info (something severely lacking in America these days-in things a lot more important than NBA stuff). Same goes with Isaac...nobody was more pumped about even a limited Isaac backing up 4/5 for us - that also timed out, IMO. There's a point where digging in your heels to not be wrong starts to look silly.

We could have given Fultz benefit of the doubt before the draft. Hell i even gave him benefit of the doubt when he was traded here but enough is enough.
Fultz is almost 25 and very flawed basketball player. He is touted as a PG not becouse he is a great playmaker but becouse he doesnt have skills or size to play anywhere else.
Can we really say he is point guard while he is second/third worst passer in the starting lineup ?
Watch game against Heat. Almost every pass is with bad timing and inaccurate. He cant create lobs for WCJ to save his life. Even Wagner and Suggs do it from time to time and they are not point guards. He loses the ball in pressure moments and its becoming more and more frequent.
It was the same thing before his ACL injury. He looked like he was drunk on the floor, or on strong sedatives.
SGA sure, basically same players.