Is Fred VanFleet still on the agenda?

[Skybox]

so what you really want is pg to be best player on the team? because thats what it seems like all your post are about...so why not trade franz and poalo now....you know so magic can have a pg as best player on team....

The (obvious) point is to upgrade at the most impactful position...based on the emotion-only support of Fultz, you probably would trade the other guys to make him move up the hierarchy...reality is you might as well trade Paolo & Franz if you're not going to put them in a favorable position. Their upsides are so far beyond Fultz', so you choose your foundation pieces and you support them, not throw obstacles in their way...a non-shooting, non-whistle drawing, non-assist racking PG is not a PG.

But show me more dunk highlights.

you are so funny...lol...nothing to do with fultz ...haha....its my dislike of fvv...but fultz has looked like best player on the floor last couple of games...i mean 25/9/7 outshines booker and paul....then goes 28/6/4 with 4 steals the next on 17 shots...but he wont shoot the 3 so he is a scrub...just like you wanted to trade the paolo pick for guys like beasley...so funny

Great win tonight...only starter with a negative +/-...did he get some nice dunks?

[orlando_joe]

The (obvious) point is to upgrade at the most impactful position...based on the emotion-only support of Fultz, you probably would trade the other guys to make him move up the hierarchy...reality is you might as well trade Paolo & Franz if you're not going to put them in a favorable position. Their upsides are so far beyond Fultz', so you choose your foundation pieces and you support them, not throw obstacles in their way...a non-shooting, non-whistle drawing, non-assist racking PG is not a PG.

But show me more dunk highlights.

you are so funny...lol...nothing to do with fultz ...haha....its my dislike of fvv...but fultz has looked like best player on the floor last couple of games...i mean 25/9/7 outshines booker and paul....then goes 28/6/4 with 4 steals the next on 17 shots...but he wont shoot the 3 so he is a scrub...just like you wanted to trade the paolo pick for guys like beasley...so funny

Great win tonight...only starter with a negative +/-...did he get some nice dunks?

what is your thing with dunks ?
do you not even watch the games? ....its a who your on court with stat...he was best player on court last 2 games

[JF5]

For the record I would take FVV over Fultz.

But let's not delude ourselves into thinking Fultz is holding back Franz and Paolo from becoming Giannis or Embiid.

The Giannis thing is a bit silly for you to say since no one is suggesting that.

But it is very much factual information that Franz and Paolo both see their field goal attempts at the rim and free throw attempts decrease when they share the floor with Fultz because of how much the floor shrinks with a non shooter playing point guard.

You have the stats for that? The only correlation I see is that the ball is more in Markelle's hands because he's the PG and easily the best decision maker/ball handler on the team.

Franz and Paolo are 2nd/3rd level ball handlers in this stage of their careers. I wouldn't try to put the ball in their hands that much given how much both struggle to initiate offense for others.

[Knightro]

You have the stats for that? The only correlation I see is that the ball is more in Markelle's hands because he's the PG and easily the best decision maker/ball handler on the team.

Franz and Paolo are 2nd/3rd level ball handlers in this stage of their careers. I wouldn't try to put the ball in their hands that much given how much both struggle to initiate offense for others.

There's definitely a noticeable drop off for Paolo when he shares the floor with Fultz.

Banchero with Fultz ON: 45.0 eFG%, 51.8 TS%, 27.1 USG%, 1.03 PPS, 41.1 FG%, .450 FT Rate
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 48.6 eFG%, 54.9 TS%, 29.3 USG%, 1.10 PPS, 45.3 FG%, .470 FT rate

Banchero with Fultz ON
24.4% of FG 0-3 feet - 61.5% accuracy
21.8% of FG 4-9 feet - 34.8% accuracy

Banchero with Fultz OFF
29.3% of FG 0-3 feet - 67.6% accuracy
19.3% of FG 4-9 feet - 43.5% accuracy

Banchero with Fultz ON: 27.2% of shots attempts on drives, 0.86 PPS on drives
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 28.4% of shot attempts on drives, 0.93 PPS on drives

Franz's percentages aren't as negatively impacted as Paolo's, but his attempts at the rim, overall driving attempts and FT rate all drop with Fultz on the court as well...

Franz with Fultz ON: 26.8% of FG 0-3 feet
Franz with Fultz OFF: 32.4% of FG 0-3 feet

Franz with Fultz ON: 32.1% of shot attempts on drives
Franz with Fultz OFF: 42.4% of shot attempts on drives

Franz with Fultz ON: .250 FT rate
Franz with Fultz OFF: .270 FT rate

Now...

Are these numbers more of a product of Paolo and Franz simply having the ball in their hands less when Fultz is on the floor? Or does it go deeper than that and Paolo and Franz face more packed lanes since Fultz is not defended closely and is helped off more liberally when he doesn't have the ball in his hands?

[The-Stallion70]

You have the stats for that? The only correlation I see is that the ball is more in Markelle's hands because he's the PG and easily the best decision maker/ball handler on the team.

Franz and Paolo are 2nd/3rd level ball handlers in this stage of their careers. I wouldn't try to put the ball in their hands that much given how much both struggle to initiate offense for others.

There's definitely a noticeable drop off for Paolo when he shares the floor with Fultz.

Banchero with Fultz ON: 45.0 eFG%, 51.8 TS%, 27.1 USG%, 1.03 PPS, 41.1 FG%, .450 FT Rate
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 48.6 eFG%, 54.9 TS%, 29.3 USG%, 1.10 PPS, 45.3 FG%, .470 FT rate

Banchero with Fultz ON
24.4% of FG 0-3 feet - 61.5% accuracy
21.8% of FG 4-9 feet - 34.8% accuracy

Banchero with Fultz OFF
29.3% of FG 0-3 feet - 67.6% accuracy
19.3% of FG 4-9 feet - 43.5% accuracy

Banchero with Fultz ON: 27.2% of shots attempts on drives, 0.86 PPS on drives
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 28.4% of shot attempts on drives, 0.93 PPS on drives

Franz's percentages aren't as negatively impacted as Paolo's, but his attempts at the rim, overall driving attempts and FT rate all drop with Fultz on the court as well...

Franz with Fultz ON: 26.8% of FG 0-3 feet
Franz with Fultz OFF: 32.4% of FG 0-3 feet

Franz with Fultz ON: 32.1% of shot attempts on drives
Franz with Fultz OFF: 42.4% of shot attempts on drives

Franz with Fultz ON: .250 FT rate
Franz with Fultz OFF: .270 FT rate

Now...

Are these numbers more of a product of Paolo and Franz simply having the ball in their hands less when Fultz is on the floor? Or does it go deeper than that and Paolo and Franz face more packed lanes since Fultz is not defended closely and is helped off more liberally when he doesn't have the ball in his hands?

Do you have the link for the webpage?

[JF5]

You have the stats for that? The only correlation I see is that the ball is more in Markelle's hands because he's the PG and easily the best decision maker/ball handler on the team.

Franz and Paolo are 2nd/3rd level ball handlers in this stage of their careers. I wouldn't try to put the ball in their hands that much given how much both struggle to initiate offense for others.

There's definitely a noticeable drop off for Paolo when he shares the floor with Fultz.

Banchero with Fultz ON: 45.0 eFG%, 51.8 TS%, 27.1 USG%, 1.03 PPS, 41.1 FG%, .450 FT Rate
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 48.6 eFG%, 54.9 TS%, 29.3 USG%, 1.10 PPS, 45.3 FG%, .470 FT rate

Banchero with Fultz ON
24.4% of FG 0-3 feet - 61.5% accuracy
21.8% of FG 4-9 feet - 34.8% accuracy

Banchero with Fultz OFF
29.3% of FG 0-3 feet - 67.6% accuracy
19.3% of FG 4-9 feet - 43.5% accuracy

Banchero with Fultz ON: 27.2% of shots attempts on drives, 0.86 PPS on drives
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 28.4% of shot attempts on drives, 0.93 PPS on drives

Franz's percentages aren't as negatively impacted as Paolo's, but his attempts at the rim, overall driving attempts and FT rate all drop with Fultz on the court as well...

Franz with Fultz ON: 26.8% of FG 0-3 feet
Franz with Fultz OFF: 32.4% of FG 0-3 feet

Franz with Fultz ON: 32.1% of shot attempts on drives
Franz with Fultz OFF: 42.4% of shot attempts on drives

Franz with Fultz ON: .250 FT rate
Franz with Fultz OFF: .270 FT rate

Now...

Are these numbers more of a product of Paolo and Franz simply having the ball in their hands less when Fultz is on the floor? Or does it go deeper than that and Paolo and Franz face more packed lanes since Fultz is not defended closely and is helped off more liberally when he doesn't have the ball in his hands?

There are a few things about the analysis though.

- Paolo

1. I think we can agree Banchero isn't really much of an off the ball player (right now). So if it's its Fultz, Henderson, or VanVleet; Paolo has to learn how to be a better off (Which means Cutting, Spotting up/shooting, and Offensive Rebounds). It's not necessarily unbelievable when his stats go down with another ball-dominate player has the ball and their hands it showcases the not so skilled areas that he needs to work on.

2. Continuing off the last point I mentioned with getting another guy who can facilitate and make the correct decisions. Paolo isn't LeBron and don't think he'll ever be more than a Secondary Ball-Handler... The Magic NEED a guy who can competently initiate offense for everyone on the court.

3. Do these stats include the first 20+ games without Fultz? I would think the On-Off stats when he was actually playing with Fultz are close. I'm saying this because since from Early to Mid December on Paolo's efficiency dipped in totality and defenses started gearing more attention towards him.

- Franz

1. You're correct Franz doesn't really get affected much because he's a much better off the ball player. He's an elite cutter and he knows where to be and knows when to get his shots and is a decent 3 point shooter. The stats you put up about FT rate and Percentage on shot attempts are sort of pointless in this argument because Fultz is at his best when he's penetrating the lanes and kick it out and is the primary ball handler. And like what was mentioned before Franz isn't the best ball handler/playmaker. So him playing more off-ball is the most optimal way for not just him, but for the team itself to succeed.

2. Also, when Fultz is playing. Franz's 3 point shooting volume/and percentage goes up. So that should be a very promising stat for you since I know how much you value 3 point shooting.

- Overall

I'm not going to disagree with you with the lanes being packed sometimes. But it's not just because of Fultz. Paolo can't shoot right now, Wendell Carter Jr. is very inconsistent, and so is Franz. So when you have a whole team group of guys struggling to make the 3 ball it can be tough. But at the same time seeing easy it is to improve a stationary jumpshot in the NBA and seeing the improvement from guys like Wendell and Suggs, I have faith they'll be decent in a few years. On top of that this team doesn't really have a hard time when it comes to scoring the basketball overall. The 3 ball is really the only issue. And even then they manage to stay pretty close and competitive in most of these games.

Also, like I mentioned before you've got teams like the Cavs and Grizzles who have 1-2 guys in their starting line-ups who don't really stretch the floor. But these teams are considered contenders. So its not impossible to be one if everyone doesn't stretch the court for your team.

[drsd]

If you agree with the notion, you believe that Fultz shouldn't be starting and probably shouldn't be on the team anymore. There is no question about if he supports Paolo & Franz. The inital question is THE question.

The only notion I agree to is that the team should not make personnel decisions based on Fultz.

Paolo & Franz game efficiency and amount of drives per game have dropped due to Fultz coming back. The paint is packed and teams play him like he's Russell Westbrook or Ben Simmons.

And the solution is not playing 4 on 5 in every half-court set. It is grinding (not)watching G-Harris.

There is no scenario where we build around Paolo & Franz and simultaneously keep Fultz.

Respectfully, I strongly disagree. I do think the Magic can be a title contender building around Bancehero and F-Wagner, with Futz and Carter also as starters. That roster needs an ace SG: think Brown or Beal.

Now this is the VanVleet thread. Do I think the Magic should keep Fultz if VanVleet is signed. That's a hard no. VanVleet would be a Suggs upgrade. What does that do to improve this team? It doesn't. VanVleet needs to be the lead guard on this team. That clearly sacrifices Fultz.


My dream with Fultz: Kennard, with Dick and GG Jackson as the rookies; dump Suggs, G-Harris, and Isaac to become:
( I love Cash Considerations as the SRP selection )

Fultz/Anthony/some-dude
Kennard/Dick/Houstan
F-Wagner/Bol
Banchero/Okeke/some-dude
Carter/M-Wagner/Jackson



My dream with VanVleet: Kennard, with Dick and GG Jackson as the rookie,; dump Fultz and Suggs, G-Harris, and Isaac to become:
VanVleet/Anthony/some-dude
Kennard/Dick
F-Wagner/Bol/Houstan
Banchero/Okeke/some-dude
Carter/M-Wagner/Jackson


If I could choose between these rosters, of course clearly the second is far superior. The Magic need shooting. And VanVleet and Kennard are light years better shooters than Fultz and G-Harris, without any sacrifices to the things the current guards offer.

If the Magic is serious about this, I do think VanVleet/Kennard/F-Wagner/Banchero/Carter can grow to be title contenders.


p.s. I think you can see I cannot find value in retaining Suggs whether the Magic upgrade the starting PG slot or not. Anthony is a much better bench player than Suggs.

[Knightro]

Respectfully, I strongly disagree. I do think the Magic can be a title contender building around Bancehero and F-Wagner, with Futz and Carter also as starters. That roster needs an ace SG: think Brown or Beal.

Respectfully, I strongly disagree with this.

I do not think it’s possible to be a title contender in the modern NBA landscape where such a huge percentage of games are ultimately decided by who makes the most threes at the highest percentages with a lead guard who doesn’t shoot threes.

Could the Magic build a good enough roster to where they could have a winning record with Fultz as their point guard? Likely, yes.

Could they win 16 playoff games with that level of anchor around their neck? I don’t think it’s possible, no.

I’m hard pressed to believe that could even win two series with Fultz starting. Maybe not even one.

[Skybox]

Respectfully, I strongly disagree. I do think the Magic can be a title contender building around Bancehero and F-Wagner, with Futz and Carter also as starters. That roster needs an ace SG: think Brown or Beal.

Respectfully, I strongly disagree with this.

I do not think it’s possible to be a title contender in the modern NBA landscape where such a huge percentage of games are ultimately decided by who makes the most threes at the highest percentages with a lead guard who doesn’t shoot threes.

Could the Magic build a good enough roster to where they could have a winning record with Fultz as their point guard? Likely, yes.

Could they win 16 playoff games with that level of anchor around their neck? I don’t think it’s possible, no.

I’m hard pressed to believe that could even win two series with Fultz starting. Maybe not even one.

Agree...sadly. I keep trying to talk myself into how adding a high-volume proven young 3-level scorer like Anfernee Simons could complement Fultz in the backcourt. But even with Simons leading the league in scoring, there's a ceiling for the team. Now imagine a scorer like Simons next to a PG like Van Vleet who can also go off for 7 made threes on any given night if you slack off of him to double Paolo or Simons ...that's the modern NBA, anyone can be neutralized. Anyone...the teams that have an offensive plan B, C, D, and E (specifically with the ability to hit 3's in bunches) are never out of a game. Fultz with a much upgraded SG would get us into the playoffs for sure...but that's as far as it goes, IMO. Once this truth is acknowledged...why add one piece at a time? We have the opportunity with non-guaranteed deals, salary cap, extra picks, etc to rebuild the backcourt overnight. Franz and Suggs will be due extensions in a couple of years with Paolo right behind. Act now.

[eyriq]

You have the stats for that? The only correlation I see is that the ball is more in Markelle's hands because he's the PG and easily the best decision maker/ball handler on the team.

Franz and Paolo are 2nd/3rd level ball handlers in this stage of their careers. I wouldn't try to put the ball in their hands that much given how much both struggle to initiate offense for others.

There's definitely a noticeable drop off for Paolo when he shares the floor with Fultz.

Banchero with Fultz ON: 45.0 eFG%, 51.8 TS%, 27.1 USG%, 1.03 PPS, 41.1 FG%, .450 FT Rate
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 48.6 eFG%, 54.9 TS%, 29.3 USG%, 1.10 PPS, 45.3 FG%, .470 FT rate

Banchero with Fultz ON
24.4% of FG 0-3 feet - 61.5% accuracy
21.8% of FG 4-9 feet - 34.8% accuracy

Banchero with Fultz OFF
29.3% of FG 0-3 feet - 67.6% accuracy
19.3% of FG 4-9 feet - 43.5% accuracy

Banchero with Fultz ON: 27.2% of shots attempts on drives, 0.86 PPS on drives
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 28.4% of shot attempts on drives, 0.93 PPS on drives

Franz's percentages aren't as negatively impacted as Paolo's, but his attempts at the rim, overall driving attempts and FT rate all drop with Fultz on the court as well...

Franz with Fultz ON: 26.8% of FG 0-3 feet
Franz with Fultz OFF: 32.4% of FG 0-3 feet

Franz with Fultz ON: 32.1% of shot attempts on drives
Franz with Fultz OFF: 42.4% of shot attempts on drives

Franz with Fultz ON: .250 FT rate
Franz with Fultz OFF: .270 FT rate

Now...

Are these numbers more of a product of Paolo and Franz simply having the ball in their hands less when Fultz is on the floor? Or does it go deeper than that and Paolo and Franz face more packed lanes since Fultz is not defended closely and is helped off more liberally when he doesn't have the ball in his hands?

Some possible issues that WeHam will need to seriously consider before going forward with Fultz paired with Paolo/Franz.

1. Decreased ball possession leading to fewer opportunities for Paolo & Franz
2. Packed lanes due to Fultz's presence
3. Defensive adjustments to Fultz's presence negatively impacting Paolo & Franz
4. Chemistry issues leading to less effective teamwork
5. Over reliance on Fultz

[RichCollab]

You have the stats for that? The only correlation I see is that the ball is more in Markelle's hands because he's the PG and easily the best decision maker/ball handler on the team.

Franz and Paolo are 2nd/3rd level ball handlers in this stage of their careers. I wouldn't try to put the ball in their hands that much given how much both struggle to initiate offense for others.

There's definitely a noticeable drop off for Paolo when he shares the floor with Fultz.

Banchero with Fultz ON: 45.0 eFG%, 51.8 TS%, 27.1 USG%, 1.03 PPS, 41.1 FG%, .450 FT Rate
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 48.6 eFG%, 54.9 TS%, 29.3 USG%, 1.10 PPS, 45.3 FG%, .470 FT rate

Banchero with Fultz ON
24.4% of FG 0-3 feet - 61.5% accuracy
21.8% of FG 4-9 feet - 34.8% accuracy

Banchero with Fultz OFF
29.3% of FG 0-3 feet - 67.6% accuracy
19.3% of FG 4-9 feet - 43.5% accuracy

Banchero with Fultz ON: 27.2% of shots attempts on drives, 0.86 PPS on drives
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 28.4% of shot attempts on drives, 0.93 PPS on drives

Franz's percentages aren't as negatively impacted as Paolo's, but his attempts at the rim, overall driving attempts and FT rate all drop with Fultz on the court as well...

Franz with Fultz ON: 26.8% of FG 0-3 feet
Franz with Fultz OFF: 32.4% of FG 0-3 feet

Franz with Fultz ON: 32.1% of shot attempts on drives
Franz with Fultz OFF: 42.4% of shot attempts on drives

Franz with Fultz ON: .250 FT rate
Franz with Fultz OFF: .270 FT rate

Now...

Are these numbers more of a product of Paolo and Franz simply having the ball in their hands less when Fultz is on the floor? Or does it go deeper than that and Paolo and Franz face more packed lanes since Fultz is not defended closely and is helped off more liberally when he doesn't have the ball in his hands?

Some possible issues that WeHam will need to seriously consider before going forward with Fultz paired with Paolo/Franz.

1. Decreased ball possession leading to fewer opportunities for Paolo & Franz
2. Packed lanes due to Fultz's presence
3. Defensive adjustments to Fultz's presence negatively impacting Paolo & Franz
4. Chemistry issues leading to less effective teamwork
5. Over reliance on Fultz

Wow. You really hate Fultz on this team. 3. , 4. , 5. , seem fixable and need a larger sample size. Actually throw out 3 completely. We had Paolo and Franz handling the ball more to start the season and it wasn’t great.

[Knightro]

There are a few things about the analysis though.

- Paolo

1. I think we can agree Banchero isn't really much of an off the ball player (right now). So if it's its Fultz, Henderson, or VanVleet; Paolo has to learn how to be a better off (Which means Cutting, Spotting up/shooting, and Offensive Rebounds). It's not necessarily unbelievable when his stats go down with another ball-dominate player has the ball and their hands it showcases the not so skilled areas that he needs to work on.

2. Continuing off the last point I mentioned with getting another guy who can facilitate and make the correct decisions. Paolo isn't LeBron and don't think he'll ever be more than a Secondary Ball-Handler... The Magic NEED a guy who can competently initiate offense for everyone on the court.

3. Do these stats include the first 20+ games without Fultz? I would think the On-Off stats when he was actually playing with Fultz are close. I'm saying this because since from Early to Mid December on Paolo's efficiency dipped in totality and defenses started gearing more attention towards him.

First of all good discussion. Wanted to say that off the top.

1. I agree that Paolo isn't a particularly good off ball player yet, but I do think there's a level of understanding that we all collectively as fans need to make. Paolo was drafted No. 1 overall because the Magic believe he has the capability to be a primary scoring option and that offensive engine. Obviously his efficiency will have to increase for that to ultimately come to fruition in a way that leads to winning, but I don't expect him to ever be a tremendous off-ball player. That's just not his game and wasn't why they brought him here.

2. I don't disagree that the Magic need a guy who can competently initiate offense for everyone, I just don't believe that Fultz is that caliber of floor general. He's just a middling playmaker in the halfcourt, which the Magic *could* in my opinion, get away with if he at least still spaced the floor, but he doesn't do that either.

3.These stats do include 487 minutes without Fultz from 10/19 to 11/28, yes. Fultz missed the first 21 games, but Paolo also missed 7 games in that same timeframe, so Paolo only played 14 games without Fultz in October/November.

Since Fultz returned, Paolo has actually barely played without Fultz. In the 50 games they've played together, they've shared the court for 94% of Fultz's possessions and 84% of Paolo's possessions.

3351 possessions for Paolo
2989 possessions for Fultz
2804 together
547 Paolo no Fultz
185 Fultz no Paolo

Banchero with Fultz ON: 45.0 eFG%, 51.8 TS%, 27.1 USG%, 1.03 PPS, 41.1 FG%, .450 FT Rate
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 48.6 eFG%, 54.9 TS%, 29.3 USG%, 1.10 PPS, 45.3 FG%, .470 FT rate
Banchero with Fultz OFF since Fultz returned: 47.5 eFG%, 54.5 TS%, 27.8 USG%, 1.09 PPS, 43.3 FG%, .470 FT rate

Banchero with Fultz ON: 24.4% of FG 0-3 feet - 61.5% accuracy
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 29.3% of FG 0-3 feet - 67.6% accuracy
Banchero with Fultz OFF since Fultz returned 30.8% of FG 0-3 feet - 67.6% accuracy

Banchero with Fultz ON: 27.2% of shots attempts on drives, 0.86 PPS
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 28.4% of shot attempts on drives, 0.93 PPS
Banchero with Fultz OFF since Fultz returned: 28.3% of shots drives, 0.94 PPS

The real question is, did Paolo's efficiency dip simply because defenses started learning his tendencies and subsequently started gearing more attention towards him? Or did defenses start gearing more attention towards him because the Magic now have a player in their starting lineup that they didn't/don't have to guard out to the three point line and can more aggressively help off?

- Franz

1. You're correct Franz doesn't really get affected much because he's a much better off the ball player. He's an elite cutter and he knows where to be and knows when to get his shots and is a decent 3 point shooter. The stats you put up about FT rate and Percentage on shot attempts are sort of pointless in this argument because Fultz is at his best when he's penetrating the lanes and kick it out and is the primary ball handler. And like what was mentioned before Franz isn't the best ball handler/playmaker. So him playing more off-ball is the most optimal way for not just him, but for the team itself to succeed.

2. Also, when Fultz is playing. Franz's 3 point shooting volume/and percentage goes up. So that should be a very promising stat for you since I know how much you value 3 point shooting.

I'd argue that Franz, while a very good off ball player, is still going to provide more value to the Magic in the long-term by developing his on-ball game. Just my opinion, but a 57.3 TS% player on a 25.1 USG (what Franz is with Fultz OFF) is ultimately going to provide more value in the long-term than a 60.0% TS% guy on 20.5% USG (what Franz is with Fultz ON). I don't want to pigeonhole Franz into a low-usage role if he's capable of handling a high-usage role, ya know?

- Overall

I'm not going to disagree with you with the lanes being packed sometimes. But it's not just because of Fultz. Paolo can't shoot right now, Wendell Carter Jr. is very inconsistent, and so is Franz. So when you have a whole team group of guys struggling to make the 3 ball it can be tough. But at the same time seeing easy it is to improve a stationary jumpshot in the NBA and seeing the improvement from guys like Wendell and Suggs, I have faith they'll be decent in a few years. On top of that this team doesn't really have a hard time when it comes to scoring the basketball overall. The 3 ball is really the only issue. And even then they manage to stay pretty close and competitive in most of these games.

Also, like I mentioned before you've got teams like the Cavs and Grizzles who have 1-2 guys in their starting line-ups who don't really stretch the floor. But these teams are considered contenders. So its not impossible to be one if everyone doesn't stretch the court for your team.

I just think we have to look at it more broadly. We know for a fact that Paolo is going nowhere. We know for a fact that Franz is going nowhere. So where can the Magic add 3PT volume and accuracy? Wendell is top 7-8 among starting centers in 3PT volume already so it's not really at center. It's at both guard spots.

And as far as team success goes and how it can be accomplished, there's more than one way to skin a cat that's for sure. Never argued otherwise. The Cavs and Grizzlies are No. 1 and No. 2 in the NBA defense.

The Cavs play at the league's slowest pace, so there's a bit of an element of zigging when everyone else is zagging. They're also above average in 3PT accuracy and have two of the best pick and roll ball handlers in the league in Garland and Mitchell which helps them tremendously in the halfcourt. They're also one of the best teams at forcing turnovers and converting those turnovers into points in transition.

Memphis is low turnover and very good at rebounding. They also, like the Cavs, very good about forcing turnovers defensively and getting out and running off those turnovers.

I just don't think you can realistically get away with a low volume 3PT shooter as your primary ball handler if you have any real aspirations of winning at a high level.

[Bergmaniac]

Interesting stat - Paolo attempts 4.5 two pointers per game after Fultz passes but is shooting only 34.6% on them. That's incredibly low for a 6'10" PF.

On top of that this team doesn't really have a hard time when it comes to scoring the basketball overall. The 3 ball is really the only issue. And even then they manage to stay pretty close and competitive in most of these games.

We are 25th in offensive rating, I'd say this qualifies as having a hard time scoring. The only time which are worse are the ones which are blatantly tanking and Miami.

[RichCollab]

There are a few things about the analysis though.

- Paolo

1. I think we can agree Banchero isn't really much of an off the ball player (right now). So if it's its Fultz, Henderson, or VanVleet; Paolo has to learn how to be a better off (Which means Cutting, Spotting up/shooting, and Offensive Rebounds). It's not necessarily unbelievable when his stats go down with another ball-dominate player has the ball and their hands it showcases the not so skilled areas that he needs to work on.

2. Continuing off the last point I mentioned with getting another guy who can facilitate and make the correct decisions. Paolo isn't LeBron and don't think he'll ever be more than a Secondary Ball-Handler... The Magic NEED a guy who can competently initiate offense for everyone on the court.

3. Do these stats include the first 20+ games without Fultz? I would think the On-Off stats when he was actually playing with Fultz are close. I'm saying this because since from Early to Mid December on Paolo's efficiency dipped in totality and defenses started gearing more attention towards him.

First of all good discussion. Wanted to say that off the top.

1. I agree that Paolo isn't a particularly good off ball player yet, but I do think there's a level of understanding that we all collectively as fans need to make. Paolo was drafted No. 1 overall because the Magic believe he has the capability to be a primary scoring option and that offensive engine. Obviously his efficiency will have to increase for that to ultimately come to fruition in a way that leads to winning, but I don't expect him to ever be a tremendous off-ball player. That's just not his game and wasn't why they brought him here.

2. I don't disagree that the Magic need a guy who can competently initiate offense for everyone, I just don't believe that Fultz is that caliber of floor general. He's just a middling playmaker in the halfcourt, which the Magic *could* in my opinion, get away with if he at least still spaced the floor, but he doesn't do that either.

3.These stats do include 487 minutes without Fultz from 10/19 to 11/28, yes. Fultz missed the first 21 games, but Paolo also missed 7 games in that same timeframe, so Paolo only played 14 games without Fultz in October/November.

Since Fultz returned, Paolo has actually barely played without Fultz. In the 50 games they've played together, they've shared the court for 94% of Fultz's possessions and 84% of Paolo's possessions.

3351 possessions for Paolo
2989 possessions for Fultz
2804 together
547 Paolo no Fultz
185 Fultz no Paolo

Banchero with Fultz ON: 45.0 eFG%, 51.8 TS%, 27.1 USG%, 1.03 PPS, 41.1 FG%, .450 FT Rate
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 48.6 eFG%, 54.9 TS%, 29.3 USG%, 1.10 PPS, 45.3 FG%, .470 FT rate
Banchero with Fultz OFF since Fultz returned: 47.5 eFG%, 54.5 TS%, 27.8 USG%, 1.09 PPS, 43.3 FG%, .470 FT rate

Banchero with Fultz ON: 24.4% of FG 0-3 feet - 61.5% accuracy
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 29.3% of FG 0-3 feet - 67.6% accuracy
Banchero with Fultz OFF since Fultz returned 30.8% of FG 0-3 feet - 67.6% accuracy

Banchero with Fultz ON: 27.2% of shots attempts on drives, 0.86 PPS
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 28.4% of shot attempts on drives, 0.93 PPS
Banchero with Fultz OFF since Fultz returned: 28.3% of shots drives, 0.94 PPS

The real question is, did Paolo's efficiency dip simply because defenses started learning his tendencies and subsequently started gearing more attention towards him? Or did defenses start gearing more attention towards him because the Magic now have a player in their starting lineup that they didn't/don't have to guard out to the three point line and can more aggressively help off?

- Franz

1. You're correct Franz doesn't really get affected much because he's a much better off the ball player. He's an elite cutter and he knows where to be and knows when to get his shots and is a decent 3 point shooter. The stats you put up about FT rate and Percentage on shot attempts are sort of pointless in this argument because Fultz is at his best when he's penetrating the lanes and kick it out and is the primary ball handler. And like what was mentioned before Franz isn't the best ball handler/playmaker. So him playing more off-ball is the most optimal way for not just him, but for the team itself to succeed.

2. Also, when Fultz is playing. Franz's 3 point shooting volume/and percentage goes up. So that should be a very promising stat for you since I know how much you value 3 point shooting.

I'd argue that Franz, while a very good off ball player, is still going to provide more value to the Magic in the long-term by developing his on-ball game. Just my opinion, but a 57.3 TS% player on a 25.1 USG (what Franz is with Fultz OFF) is ultimately going to provide more value in the long-term than a 60.0% TS% guy on 20.5% USG (what Franz is with Fultz ON). I don't want to pigeonhole Franz into a low-usage role if he's capable of handling a high-usage role, ya know?

- Overall

I'm not going to disagree with you with the lanes being packed sometimes. But it's not just because of Fultz. Paolo can't shoot right now, Wendell Carter Jr. is very inconsistent, and so is Franz. So when you have a whole team group of guys struggling to make the 3 ball it can be tough. But at the same time seeing easy it is to improve a stationary jumpshot in the NBA and seeing the improvement from guys like Wendell and Suggs, I have faith they'll be decent in a few years. On top of that this team doesn't really have a hard time when it comes to scoring the basketball overall. The 3 ball is really the only issue. And even then they manage to stay pretty close and competitive in most of these games.

Also, like I mentioned before you've got teams like the Cavs and Grizzles who have 1-2 guys in their starting line-ups who don't really stretch the floor. But these teams are considered contenders. So its not impossible to be one if everyone doesn't stretch the court for your team.

I just think we have to look at it more broadly. We know for a fact that Paolo is going nowhere. We know for a fact that Franz is going nowhere. So where can the Magic add 3PT volume and accuracy? Wendell is top 7-8 among starting centers in 3PT volume already so it's not really at center. It's at both guard spots.

And as far as team success goes and how it can be accomplished, there's more than one way to skin a cat that's for sure. Never argued otherwise. The Cavs and Grizzlies are No. 1 and No. 2 in the NBA defense.

The Cavs play at the league's slowest pace, so there's a bit of an element of zigging when everyone else is zagging. They're also above average in 3PT accuracy and have two of the best pick and roll ball handlers in the league in Garland and Mitchell which helps them tremendously in the halfcourt. They're also one of the best teams at forcing turnovers and converting those turnovers into points in transition.

Memphis is low turnover and very good at rebounding. They also, like the Cavs, very good about forcing turnovers defensively and getting out and running off those turnovers.

I just don't think you can realistically get away with a low volume 3PT shooter as your primary ball handler if you have any real aspirations of winning at a high level.

Great discussion and stats. Paolo has been up and down during this season and going through the rookie wall. I don’t think the majority up/downs is related to Fultz. I believe it makes it hard to fully trust the stats.

Paolo is here to be the guy and 1st option. There is no debate. He is the most important player we have had for 10+ years. Though Franz is amazing himself with his versatility and competitive nature.

Sure, if we get the perfect fit all-star PG this time of season let’s get him and start him. I don’t think that’s going to happen this off-season and I believe it would be a mistake to not give Fultz and Paolo another season together. I definitely want to make sure it works. Fultz has to be more than good to get more than one more season.

[Knightro]

Great discussion and stats. Paolo has been up and down during this season and going through the rookie wall. I don’t think the majority up/downs is related to Fultz. I believe it makes it hard to fully trust the stats.

Paolo is here to be the guy and 1st option. There is no debate. He is the most important player we have had for 10+ years. Though Franz is amazing himself with his versatility and competitive nature.

Sure, if we get the perfect fit all-star PG this time of season let’s get him and start him. I don’t think that’s going to happen this off-season and I believe it would be a mistake to not give Fultz and Paolo another season together. I definitely want to make sure it works. Fultz has to be more than good to get more than one more season.

I would hope this goes without saying, but in spite of my repeated and often heavy criticism of Fultz, the best thing that could happen to the Magic by a significantly wide margin would be for Fultz to figure it out and be a great PG that fits well with Paolo and Franz.

If for no other reason than he’s already here.

That would absolutely be the best thing that could happen and I’m 100% rooting for it. I just don’t think it will happen.

[JF5]

First of all good discussion. Wanted to say that off the top.

1. I agree that Paolo isn't a particularly good off ball player yet, but I do think there's a level of understanding that we all collectively as fans need to make. Paolo was drafted No. 1 overall because the Magic believe he has the capability to be a primary scoring option and that offensive engine. Obviously his efficiency will have to increase for that to ultimately come to fruition in a way that leads to winning, but I don't expect him to ever be a tremendous off-ball player. That's just not his game and wasn't why they brought him here.

I agree... He's not supposed to play that much off the ball. But with how limited he is as a play initiator/passer its very imperative for him to have to be at least good off ball. Though I believe he'll be one of the best players in the NBA. I think he'll be in the Carmelo Anthony/Kevin Durant lineage where he needs a Chauncey Billups/Russell Westbrook type guy to set him up and in-turn more of his game will be unlocked. Same goes for Franz as well.

2. I don't disagree that the Magic need a guy who can competently initiate offense for everyone, I just don't believe that Fultz is that caliber of floor general. He's just a middling playmaker in the halfcourt, which the Magic *could* in my opinion, get away with if he at least still spaced the floor, but he doesn't do that either.

Yes, this portion I think we can agree to disagree. For me Fultz is a much better playmaker given how easily he can get to the rim and either kick it out or score at the basket as he actually actively looks for others. VanVleet is physically limited and is not really that good at penetration. He is a very good shooter which opens up the lanes for him to drive the lanes but he doesnt finish well at all. And he's very inefficient in general as a scorer. The only thing that saves him is his ability to shoot the 3 at high volume. But that in itself doesn't take the account his declining defensive prowess, his very inconsistent play, average play initiattion/playmaking, and his score first mentality I personally don't think would jive well with the rest of the guys.

3.These stats do include 487 minutes without Fultz from 10/19 to 11/28, yes. Fultz missed the first 21 games, but Paolo also missed 7 games in that same timeframe, so Paolo only played 14 games without Fultz in October/November.

Since Fultz returned, Paolo has actually barely played without Fultz. In the 50 games they've played together, they've shared the court for 94% of Fultz's possessions and 84% of Paolo's possessions.

3351 possessions for Paolo
2989 possessions for Fultz
2804 together
547 Paolo no Fultz
185 Fultz no Paolo

Banchero with Fultz ON: 45.0 eFG%, 51.8 TS%, 27.1 USG%, 1.03 PPS, 41.1 FG%, .450 FT Rate
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 48.6 eFG%, 54.9 TS%, 29.3 USG%, 1.10 PPS, 45.3 FG%, .470 FT rate
Banchero with Fultz OFF since Fultz returned: 47.5 eFG%, 54.5 TS%, 27.8 USG%, 1.09 PPS, 43.3 FG%, .470 FT rate

Banchero with Fultz ON: 24.4% of FG 0-3 feet - 61.5% accuracy
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 29.3% of FG 0-3 feet - 67.6% accuracy
Banchero with Fultz OFF since Fultz returned 30.8% of FG 0-3 feet - 67.6% accuracy

Banchero with Fultz ON: 27.2% of shots attempts on drives, 0.86 PPS
Banchero with Fultz OFF: 28.4% of shot attempts on drives, 0.93 PPS
Banchero with Fultz OFF since Fultz returned: 28.3% of shots drives, 0.94 PPS

The real question is, did Paolo's efficiency dip simply because defenses started learning his tendencies and subsequently started gearing more attention towards him? Or did defenses start gearing more attention towards him because the Magic now have a player in their starting lineup that they didn't/don't have to guard out to the three point line and can more aggressively help off?

I'll agree to an extent there was maybe a slight factor with Markelle. But looking at how Paolo started the season and how he was being guarded teams typically/usually start figuring out ways how to guard the guy once they have game tape on him. He was pretty much getting 1on1 matchups the first month of the season.

He was seeing more double teams in early December and teams were actively clogging the lanes because Paolo even with his hot start was doing most of his damage in the paint (again, he's not a good shooter). Once those things started happening he wasn't getting the same looks and he was becoming uncomfortable. On top of him hitting the rookie wall in the later portion of December shot his shooting percentage way down.

This doesn't even add the fact the Magic were winning a Bunch of games at this point as well. So wasn't like when Fultz came back and Paolo's shooting efficiency went down the team was losing. They were competing and on a win streak.

I'd argue that Franz, while a very good off ball player, is still going to provide more value to the Magic in the long-term by developing his on-ball game. Just my opinion, but a 57.3 TS% player on a 25.1 USG (what Franz is with Fultz OFF) is ultimately going to provide more value in the long-term than a 60.0% TS% guy on 20.5% USG (what Franz is with Fultz ON). I don't want to pigeonhole Franz into a low-usage role if he's capable of handling a high-usage role, ya know?

Franz needs to develop his on ball game. But again his max potential as a ball-handler is 2nd level ball-handling. Eye-Test he's currently the on 3rd level where he's able to only create his own shot and make the occasional pass nice pass in the half-court/structured offense. There were times this year where if he got pressured by someone who was an okay defender and he'd be immediately stripped, or the offense was so deep into the shot clock they either heaved up a bad shot or turned over the ball.

For Franz for his his handle/passing/vision I don't think he'd able to be a full-time on ball guy that you necessarily. I liken it to Klay Thompson where he'd be such a good off-ball threat (while being a good on ball player that primarily creates for himself) that he can be the 2nd best player on a contending depending on who his 1st option is and how the offense is facilitated.

I don't seeing Paolo/Franz mirroring a James/Wade duo where those guys just dominated the ball for their offenses. But more of a Curry/Thompson.

I just think we have to look at it more broadly. We know for a fact that Paolo is going nowhere. We know for a fact that Franz is going nowhere. So where can the Magic add 3PT volume and accuracy? Wendell is top 7-8 among starting centers in 3PT volume already so it's not really at center. It's at both guard spots.

And as far as team success goes and how it can be accomplished, there's more than one way to skin a cat that's for sure. Never argued otherwise. The Cavs and Grizzlies are No. 1 and No. 2 in the NBA defense.

The Cavs play at the league's slowest pace, so there's a bit of an element of zigging when everyone else is zagging. They're also above average in 3PT accuracy and have two of the best pick and roll ball handlers in the league in Garland and Mitchell which helps them tremendously in the halfcourt. They're also one of the best teams at forcing turnovers and converting those turnovers into points in transition.

Memphis is low turnover and very good at rebounding. They also, like the Cavs, very good about forcing turnovers defensively and getting out and running off those turnovers.

What I placed in bolding just caps it all off for me. There are multiple ways to be a contender in the NBA.

There was a time prior to th the 80s where people were saying a Swingman/Guards couldn't be "the guy" as you had to have Big Men to win. You had Magic and Bird. Then Jordan took to overdrive in the 90s. Recently in the 00s/early 10s people were saying you couldn't win by shooting 3 point shots as your primary weapon. Then Curry happened and his style of play took a hold of the NBA from the Mid 10s to the present. To now the narrative is you can't win a Championship with a big man as your best player. Now, arguably the 3 best players in Jokic/Giannis/Embiid dominate the league and have dominate for the last 3-4 years with one of them winning a title recently.

3 Point shooting is important but again, in your same post you highlighted the aspects that made these teams contenders that wasn't their outside shooting. So I'm having a hard time believing why can't the Magic focus on other aspects that can make them contenders. Having players that can hit the 3 are important. That has always been the case since the 90s. But shooting those at a high volume is what for what teams are hinging on in becoming great is a strange argument to me.

I just don't think you can realistically get away a low volume 3PT shooter as your primary ball handler if you have any real aspirations of winning at a high level.

I wouldn't say he's their lead ball handler. But probably 1b... But didn't GIannis win a title a few years ago technically as primary ball handler? They do have Jrue so he's their true lead. But doesn't that tell you that its not necessarily impossible?

[MasterGMer]

Regardless of who we might get, whether it is FVV or trade, I think the Front Office is going to give 1 more year to Fultz to prove that he can lead this team to a playoff contention and go far. Mosley loves Fultz and he played more than 30 MPG last night.

I said it twice and I will say it again, I do not care about the pyramid of power of which player is a franchise guy or not, Fultz is our most efficient player. He shot over 56% last 5 games

Whether Fultz can work out along with Paolo or Franz is still unknown to me. Instead of worrying about Defense Clog the paint when Fultz is on the floor, why not let Paolo practice more of his 3 pt shots? When Fultz on the floor, the gain outlasts the loss, period.

If it was not his performance yesterday, do you think we have a prayer against Clippers on the road?

Paolo hitting rookie wall has a lot of factors. The biggest one is not Fultz. It is that the defense game planed Paolo.

We almost pull it off on the road against Suns. Why? It was Fultz!

[Knightro]

I said it twice and I will say it again, I do not care about the pyramid of power of which player is a franchise guy or not, Fultz is our most efficient player. He shot over 56% last 5 games

FG% does not equal efficiency.

5 game sample size does not equal a full season's body of work.

[Skybox]

Regardless of who we might get, whether it is FVV or trade, I think the Front Office is going to give 1 more year to Fultz to prove that he can lead this team to a playoff contention and go far. Mosley loves Fultz and he played more than 30 MPG last night.

I said it twice and I will say it again, I do not care about the pyramid of power of which player is a franchise guy or not, Fultz is our most efficient player. He shot over 56% last 5 games

Whether Fultz can work out along with Paolo or Franz is still unknown to me. Instead of worrying about Defense Clog the paint when Fultz is on the floor, why not let Paolo practice more of his 3 pt shots? When Fultz on the floor, the gain outlasts the loss, period.

If it was not his performance yesterday, do you think we have a prayer against Clippers on the road?

Paolo hitting rookie wall has a lot of factors. The biggest one is not Fultz. It is that the defense game planed Paolo.

We almost pull it off on the road against Suns. Why? It was Fultz!

One starter had a negative +/- during the time they were on the court yesterday. Period.

[RichCollab]

Regardless of who we might get, whether it is FVV or trade, I think the Front Office is going to give 1 more year to Fultz to prove that he can lead this team to a playoff contention and go far. Mosley loves Fultz and he played more than 30 MPG last night.

I said it twice and I will say it again, I do not care about the pyramid of power of which player is a franchise guy or not, Fultz is our most efficient player. He shot over 56% last 5 games

Whether Fultz can work out along with Paolo or Franz is still unknown to me. Instead of worrying about Defense Clog the paint when Fultz is on the floor, why not let Paolo practice more of his 3 pt shots? When Fultz on the floor, the gain outlasts the loss, period.

If it was not his performance yesterday, do you think we have a prayer against Clippers on the road?

Paolo hitting rookie wall has a lot of factors. The biggest one is not Fultz. It is that the defense game planed Paolo.

We almost pull it off on the road against Suns. Why? It was Fultz!

One starter had a negative +/- during the time they were on the court yesterday. Period.

By your logic Bol Bol should be starting.