Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II

[Rapsfan07]

I really like Anthony Black. 6'7 with close to a 7ft wing span. Solid shooting splits for a freshman 45/30/70. Gets to the line a lot, he's averaging 5+ attempts per game. High steals rate with 2 per game. Also averaging 5+ boards, 4+ assists.

Would really rather Wallace. Seems like Wallace has the higher ceiling...I see a Shaun Livingston type guy from Black, which I think could be good if he develops a jumper in the future. Still, Wallace is safer as he has the higher floor and the higher ceiling IMO.

I think the draft is as good a time as any to decide what we're doing with Siakam/OG/Barnes. Not only do I think the three of them don't work long term but also in order to even begin thinking about upgrading the roster, you HAVE to give up one of them. Since we brought in Poeltl, I have to assuming we're hanging on to Pascal. Seeing as Barnes is really young and cheap and OG has been rumored to want out, we should be looking at how to extract max value from an OG trade.

OG for 3 FRPs from the Jazz I think is a good deal. This should enable us to walk away with Hendricks and Wallace, as well as another guard towards the bottom of the draft like Jones or Sasser

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

It's incredibly concerning that Tolzman didn't mention an offensive attribute. While I value athleticism, I also value change of pace in scorers. Most of the top scorers in the NBA have that style.

Okay, maybe listen to the interview and what was asked before giving us your hot takes. He didn't mention they value superstars, either.

Relax. No one’s giving any hot takes. I’m saying the description of the player they’re looking for fits Taylor Hendricks.

Do you enjoy being told to relax because you do it to other people very frequently and it's not a nice thing to say. Kindness towards others can go a long way.

[God Squad]

Daron Holmes is a sneaky good prospect if we strike out on our top priority guys. Doesn't really fill a need atm, but he still looks like a solid big prospect with a decent ceiling.

[God Squad]

I really like Anthony Black. 6'7 with close to a 7ft wing span. Solid shooting splits for a freshman 45/30/70. Gets to the line a lot, he's averaging 5+ attempts per game. High steals rate with 2 per game. Also averaging 5+ boards, 4+ assists.

Would really rather Wallace. Seems like Wallace has the higher ceiling...I see a Shaun Livingston type guy from Black, which I think could be good if he develops a jumper in the future. Still, Wallace is safer as he has the higher floor and the higher ceiling IMO.

I think the draft is as good a time as any to decide what we're doing with Siakam/OG/Barnes. Not only do I think the three of them don't work long term but also in order to even begin thinking about upgrading the roster, you HAVE to give up one of them. Since we brought in Poeltl, I have to assuming we're hanging on to Pascal. Seeing as Barnes is really young and cheap and OG has been rumored to want out, we should be looking at how to extract max value from an OG trade.

OG for 3 FRPs from the Jazz I think is a good deal. This should enable us to walk away with Hendricks and Wallace, as well as another guard towards the bottom of the draft like Jones or Sasser

I'd rather not deal with Ainge tbh. Plus conversations between him and Masai will likely stalemate because neither will want to cave to the other.

[grant101]

If anyone missed the recent Dan Tolzman interview he mentioned a few things the Raptors key in on with prospects.

-mentioned the most translatable quality with prospects is measurables/athleticicism.
-they prioritize IQ and do heavy research on character (mentioned as an example like who will be living with them in Toronto).
-specified rebounding for size/ position/ age as an indicator of intelligence/competitiveness.
-at this time of year he likes to see which prospects have 'checked out' and which ones are still competing/finishing plays.

In this draft I've singled out a few of these types I've been interested in:

1) Anthony Black. Measurables will translate. High character. Rebounding is decent but not special. Still going all out in the tournament.
2) Gradey Dick. Size will translate. He's physically weak, so that could be an issue. No clue about his character. Rebounding is meh for his size. Didn't check out.
3) Rayan Rupert. Elite measurables (reported Kawhi measurements). High character. Rebounding is meh in a pro league. Starting on a competitive team.
4) Leonard Miller. Measurables will translate. No clue about his character but no flags. Excellent rebounder. Still playing (unlike Scoot)
5) Bilal Coulibaly. Excellent measurables. No clue about his character. Excellent rebounder. Seems like a competitor.
6) Brandin Podziemski. Good size, meh athlete. No clue about character. Special rebounder. Bounced from NIT, but still produced like 1/3 of his teams buckets.

Later on there's older super productive bigs like Trayce and Tschibwe. They'll both make it to the NBA, but I don't think the Raptors need either of them with JP and Koloko.

I'd add Julian Phillips. #15 in his class, McDonalds All-American, playing big minutes for the top defensive team in the country, 82% from the line, parents were in the army, rebounds it okay. Looks like he's going 2nd round, but if we trade down to get another pick and try to draft a bench scorer (Terquavion, Sasser, Lewis) then I could see us falling in love with him as a kinda average starting 3 in the NBA type, or maybe we move down from say #13 and turn Boucher into like Rozier and #27 or Rozier and #34. Like this:

Poeltl 28 - Koloko 12 - Achiuwa 8
Siakam 35 Achiuwa 7 Barnes 6
Barnes 29 OG 19
OG 16 Trent 28 Rozier 2
VanVleet 28 Rozier 20

sort of thing, with Barnes and Siakam I guess handling it when Van Vleet is out, and because of injuries, Rozier's 22 a game looks like 25 or so most likely. Phillips becomes the main prospect to develop and gets g-league time since he's young.

Love Phillips, but for his sake, I really hope he gets back to school. Nobody drafting late first/early second is going to devote the development time/resources he needs. Reminds.me of Peyton Watson last year. IMO he's a lottery pick next year

[Kevin Willis]

GLEAGUE STATS:

Scoot Henderson: 30.7 MIN, 16.5 PPG, 5.4 REB, 6.5 AST, 1.1 STL, 0.5 BLK, 42.9 FG, 27.5 3PT, 76.4 FT, 53.7 TS, 27.5 USG
Leonard Miller: 30.6 MIN, 18.0 PPG, 11.0 REB, 1.6 AST, 0.9 STL, 0.8 BLK, 55.4 FG, 32.7 3PT, 79.2 FT, 64.3 TS, 21.8 USG
Sidy Cissoko: 29.9 MIN, 13.1 PPG, 2.8 REB, 3.6 AST, 1.2 STL, 0.9 BLK, 46.0 FG, 30.7 3PT, 63.5 FT, 60.3 TS, 19.1 USG

Leonard Miller probably has the best stats. Has proven himself more this year than a mystery last year and will probably be drafted in the second round. Interesting.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

I really like Anthony Black. 6'7 with close to a 7ft wing span. Solid shooting splits for a freshman 45/30/70. Gets to the line a lot, he's averaging 5+ attempts per game. High steals rate with 2 per game. Also averaging 5+ boards, 4+ assists.

Would really rather Wallace. Seems like Wallace has the higher ceiling...I see a Shaun Livingston type guy from Black, which I think could be good if he develops a jumper in the future. Still, Wallace is safer as he has the higher floor and the higher ceiling IMO.

I think the draft is as good a time as any to decide what we're doing with Siakam/OG/Barnes. Not only do I think the three of them don't work long term but also in order to even begin thinking about upgrading the roster, you HAVE to give up one of them. Since we brought in Poeltl, I have to assuming we're hanging on to Pascal. Seeing as Barnes is really young and cheap and OG has been rumored to want out, we should be looking at how to extract max value from an OG trade.

OG for 3 FRPs from the Jazz I think is a good deal. This should enable us to walk away with Hendricks and Wallace, as well as another guard towards the bottom of the draft like Jones or Sasser

I think if Masai had the chance to draft Black or Wallace he would probably take Black based on measurables and the belief that he can groom him.

Anthony Black's shooting is really ugly. You like the effort levels and length as a defender and ability to get to the line (which he does mainly by banging inside like a PF) but the vast majority of his buckets come from close to the rim. He is a complete project as a shooter and it's very possible that he won't ever develop an acceptable midrange or deep shooting game. You draft him if you think he can at least be an acceptable shooter and expect him to be some weird hybrid of a taller poor man's Jason Kidd with Ben Simmons or something like that. He has a lot of work to do to clean up his turnovers I have seen him drive without a plan and end up losing the ball too often for my liking. Needs to clean it up. Cason Wallace is the better passer at this point.

[dozo]

GLEAGUE STATS:

Scoot Henderson: 30.7 MIN, 16.5 PPG, 5.4 REB, 6.5 AST, 1.1 STL, 0.5 BLK, 42.9 FG, 27.5 3PT, 76.4 FT, 53.7 TS, 27.5 USG
Leonard Miller: 30.6 MIN, 18.0 PPG, 11.0 REB, 1.6 AST, 0.9 STL, 0.8 BLK, 55.4 FG, 32.7 3PT, 79.2 FT, 64.3 TS, 21.8 USG
Sidy Cissoko: 29.9 MIN, 13.1 PPG, 2.8 REB, 3.6 AST, 1.2 STL, 0.9 BLK, 46.0 FG, 30.7 3PT, 63.5 FT, 60.3 TS, 19.1 USG

If Scoot is let's say John Wall and going behind Miller, then I think Siakam and #13 for let's say Hayward and #3 is probably worth it in the long run. Save like 25-30M a year, balance out the rotation, try to win when Barnes is hopefully ready in 2-3 years after getting a bump from getting to play the 4 (which should help him, as it does virtually all 3s now that traditional Davis brother type 4s are largely obsolete).

Poeltl-Koloko
Barnes-Achiuwa
OG-Hayward/Porter
Trent-Scoot/MLE
VanVleet-Scoot

and either Hayward expires and our cap situation is clean, or we move Hayward for a backup wing, either with a pick (for a good 6th man type) or some meh guys on smaller deals from a team wanting cap space, like Brooklyn with their extra wings. Ideally you sign like Josh Richardson or Strus with the MLE but probably actually get like Lonnie Walker or Nunn or someone like that. We should have signed Malik Monk, that was annoying to miss on him twice, same as Hartenstein.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1239079-10-craziest-draft-day-trades-of-all-time.amp.html

Draft day trades are usually one-sided e.g. Antonio Davis for Johnthan Bender. I would be reluctant to make the above trade due to history of draft day trades.

[Rapsfan07]

I really like Anthony Black. 6'7 with close to a 7ft wing span. Solid shooting splits for a freshman 45/30/70. Gets to the line a lot, he's averaging 5+ attempts per game. High steals rate with 2 per game. Also averaging 5+ boards, 4+ assists.

Would really rather Wallace. Seems like Wallace has the higher ceiling...I see a Shaun Livingston type guy from Black, which I think could be good if he develops a jumper in the future. Still, Wallace is safer as he has the higher floor and the higher ceiling IMO.

I think the draft is as good a time as any to decide what we're doing with Siakam/OG/Barnes. Not only do I think the three of them don't work long term but also in order to even begin thinking about upgrading the roster, you HAVE to give up one of them. Since we brought in Poeltl, I have to assuming we're hanging on to Pascal. Seeing as Barnes is really young and cheap and OG has been rumored to want out, we should be looking at how to extract max value from an OG trade.

OG for 3 FRPs from the Jazz I think is a good deal. This should enable us to walk away with Hendricks and Wallace, as well as another guard towards the bottom of the draft like Jones or Sasser

I'd rather not deal with Ainge tbh. Plus conversations between him and Masai will likely stalemate because neither will want to cave to the other.

I'll be honest - I don't love the idea of it either but if this is on the table, I think it's something you have to do.

I just don't believe in the long term outlook of this team and I can't see a way of breaking the already present stalemate other than either selling our vets to bring in young talent (which Masai isn't going to do or else he would have done it already) or selling on Barnes and additional future draft capital to bring in a star (I don't think this is particularly likely either).

Making a deal like the one above is one route we can explore since we definitely cannot afford to pay OG anyway and provides us with young talent that can still contribute right away while also having significant potential to improve.

Assuming everybody is back next year and an OG trade like the one above is completed, we could be looking at something like:

FVV/Wallace (Jazz)
Trent/2023 pick (Jazz)
Barnes/Porter/pick (Jazz)
Siakam/Boucher/Hendricks (Raptors)
Poeltl/Koloko/Precious

Still not a contender but at least we have some young pieces for the future.

[grant101]

GLEAGUE STATS:

Scoot Henderson: 30.7 MIN, 16.5 PPG, 5.4 REB, 6.5 AST, 1.1 STL, 0.5 BLK, 42.9 FG, 27.5 3PT, 76.4 FT, 53.7 TS, 27.5 USG
Leonard Miller: 30.6 MIN, 18.0 PPG, 11.0 REB, 1.6 AST, 0.9 STL, 0.8 BLK, 55.4 FG, 32.7 3PT, 79.2 FT, 64.3 TS, 21.8 USG
Sidy Cissoko: 29.9 MIN, 13.1 PPG, 2.8 REB, 3.6 AST, 1.2 STL, 0.9 BLK, 46.0 FG, 30.7 3PT, 63.5 FT, 60.3 TS, 19.1 USG

If Scoot is let's say John Wall and going behind Miller, then I think Siakam and #13 for let's say Hayward and #3 is probably worth it in the long run. Save like 25-30M a year, balance out the rotation, try to win when Barnes is hopefully ready in 2-3 years after getting a bump from getting to play the 4 (which should help him, as it does virtually all 3s now that traditional Davis brother type 4s are largely obsolete).

Poeltl-Koloko
Barnes-Achiuwa
OG-Hayward/Porter
Trent-Scoot/MLE
VanVleet-Scoot

and either Hayward expires and our cap situation is clean, or we move Hayward for a backup wing, either with a pick (for a good 6th man type) or some meh guys on smaller deals from a team wanting cap space, like Brooklyn with their extra wings. Ideally you sign like Josh Richardson or Strus with the MLE but probably actually get like Lonnie Walker or Nunn or someone like that. We should have signed Malik Monk, that was annoying to miss on him twice, same as Hartenstein.

This is the kind of move I can get behind! I'm holding tight to my Scoot stock and think he's going to be a star.

Also like Strus as a MLE target (the others, less so) but he's going to have his pick of offers

[Rapsfan07]

I really like Anthony Black. 6'7 with close to a 7ft wing span. Solid shooting splits for a freshman 45/30/70. Gets to the line a lot, he's averaging 5+ attempts per game. High steals rate with 2 per game. Also averaging 5+ boards, 4+ assists.

Would really rather Wallace. Seems like Wallace has the higher ceiling...I see a Shaun Livingston type guy from Black, which I think could be good if he develops a jumper in the future. Still, Wallace is safer as he has the higher floor and the higher ceiling IMO.

I think the draft is as good a time as any to decide what we're doing with Siakam/OG/Barnes. Not only do I think the three of them don't work long term but also in order to even begin thinking about upgrading the roster, you HAVE to give up one of them. Since we brought in Poeltl, I have to assuming we're hanging on to Pascal. Seeing as Barnes is really young and cheap and OG has been rumored to want out, we should be looking at how to extract max value from an OG trade.

OG for 3 FRPs from the Jazz I think is a good deal. This should enable us to walk away with Hendricks and Wallace, as well as another guard towards the bottom of the draft like Jones or Sasser

I think if Masai had the chance to draft Black or Wallace he would probably take Black based on measurables and the belief that he can groom him.

Anthony Black's shooting is really ugly. You like the effort levels and length as a defender and ability to get to the line (which he does mainly by banging inside like a PF) but the vast majority of his buckets come from close to the rim. He is a complete project as a shooter and it's very possible that he won't ever develop an acceptable midrange or deep shooting game. You draft him if you think he can at least be an acceptable shooter and expect him to be some weird hybrid of a taller poor man's Jason Kidd with Ben Simmons or something like that. He has a lot of work to do to clean up his turnovers I have seen him drive without a plan and end up losing the ball too often for my liking. Needs to clean it up. Cason Wallace is the better passer at this point.

Well, as I'm sure you can tell, I've soured a bit on Masai the last couple years so if he does take Black over Wallace, I personally will be calling for his head...not that is going to do anything lol.

But on a more serious note, I do blame him for this long bois philosophy. It doesn't work, it hasn't worked and if he's going to double down on it, then I'm not sure he's the guy we all thought he was.

[WuTang_CMB]

Amari made a huge jump during the latter part of the year. Good for him. Still think he should go back and dominate next year.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

Would really rather Wallace. Seems like Wallace has the higher ceiling...I see a Shaun Livingston type guy from Black, which I think could be good if he develops a jumper in the future. Still, Wallace is safer as he has the higher floor and the higher ceiling IMO.

I think the draft is as good a time as any to decide what we're doing with Siakam/OG/Barnes. Not only do I think the three of them don't work long term but also in order to even begin thinking about upgrading the roster, you HAVE to give up one of them. Since we brought in Poeltl, I have to assuming we're hanging on to Pascal. Seeing as Barnes is really young and cheap and OG has been rumored to want out, we should be looking at how to extract max value from an OG trade.

OG for 3 FRPs from the Jazz I think is a good deal. This should enable us to walk away with Hendricks and Wallace, as well as another guard towards the bottom of the draft like Jones or Sasser

I think if Masai had the chance to draft Black or Wallace he would probably take Black based on measurables and the belief that he can groom him.

Anthony Black's shooting is really ugly. You like the effort levels and length as a defender and ability to get to the line (which he does mainly by banging inside like a PF) but the vast majority of his buckets come from close to the rim. He is a complete project as a shooter and it's very possible that he won't ever develop an acceptable midrange or deep shooting game. You draft him if you think he can at least be an acceptable shooter and expect him to be some weird hybrid of a taller poor man's Jason Kidd with Ben Simmons or something like that. He has a lot of work to do to clean up his turnovers I have seen him drive without a plan and end up losing the ball too often for my liking. Needs to clean it up. Cason Wallace is the better passer at this point.

Well, as I'm sure you can tell, I've soured a bit on Masai the last couple years so if he does take Black over Wallace, I personally will be calling for his head...not that is going to do anything lol.

But on a more serious note, I do blame him for this long bois philosophy. It doesn't work, it hasn't worked and if he's going to double down on it, then I'm not sure he's the guy we all thought he was.

I don't believe in the practicality of Masai's philosophy. In theory it makes sense but things only work when they work both in theory and in practice. The vast majority of players who excel at forcing turnovers/offensive rebounding (creating 2nd chance opportunities) that the Raptors will have access to construct the team from, will be deficient offensively. The entire team-building philosophy in practice will almost certainly depend on a number of players Masai brings in becoming meaningful contributors offensively and I am of the belief, like most people are, that defense can be worked on a lot more easily than offence.

[Rapsfan07]

I think if Masai had the chance to draft Black or Wallace he would probably take Black based on measurables and the belief that he can groom him.

Anthony Black's shooting is really ugly. You like the effort levels and length as a defender and ability to get to the line (which he does mainly by banging inside like a PF) but the vast majority of his buckets come from close to the rim. He is a complete project as a shooter and it's very possible that he won't ever develop an acceptable midrange or deep shooting game. You draft him if you think he can at least be an acceptable shooter and expect him to be some weird hybrid of a taller poor man's Jason Kidd with Ben Simmons or something like that. He has a lot of work to do to clean up his turnovers I have seen him drive without a plan and end up losing the ball too often for my liking. Needs to clean it up. Cason Wallace is the better passer at this point.

Well, as I'm sure you can tell, I've soured a bit on Masai the last couple years so if he does take Black over Wallace, I personally will be calling for his head...not that is going to do anything lol.

But on a more serious note, I do blame him for this long bois philosophy. It doesn't work, it hasn't worked and if he's going to double down on it, then I'm not sure he's the guy we all thought he was.

I don't believe in the practicality of Masai's philosophy. In theory it makes sense but things only work when they work both in theory and in practice. The vast majority of players who excel at forcing turnovers/offensive rebounding (creating 2nd chance opportunities) that the Raptors will have access to construct the team from, will be deficient offensively. The entire team-building philosophy in practice will almost certainly depend on a number of players Masai brings in becoming meaningful contributors offensively and I am of the belief, like most people are, that defense can be worked on a lot more easily than offence.

This game is all about putting the ball in the basket more than your opponent does. It really all does come down to that.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Black is just going to make every team better in the way that Scottie does. Masai hasn't been wrong about the types of players he thinks wins games. Very few significant misses in the draft. Even the Flynn-Bane whiff, they really liked Bane. They just chose wrong. I like both Black and Wallace. While it's true you can't easily teach scoring skill in the NBA, it's a lot easier to get minutes earlier on if defense is already in your DNA. From there gains are made on offense that can significantly improve your team.

[Ell Curry]

GLEAGUE STATS:

Scoot Henderson: 30.7 MIN, 16.5 PPG, 5.4 REB, 6.5 AST, 1.1 STL, 0.5 BLK, 42.9 FG, 27.5 3PT, 76.4 FT, 53.7 TS, 27.5 USG
Leonard Miller: 30.6 MIN, 18.0 PPG, 11.0 REB, 1.6 AST, 0.9 STL, 0.8 BLK, 55.4 FG, 32.7 3PT, 79.2 FT, 64.3 TS, 21.8 USG
Sidy Cissoko: 29.9 MIN, 13.1 PPG, 2.8 REB, 3.6 AST, 1.2 STL, 0.9 BLK, 46.0 FG, 30.7 3PT, 63.5 FT, 60.3 TS, 19.1 USG

If Scoot is let's say John Wall and going behind Miller, then I think Siakam and #13 for let's say Hayward and #3 is probably worth it in the long run. Save like 25-30M a year, balance out the rotation, try to win when Barnes is hopefully ready in 2-3 years after getting a bump from getting to play the 4 (which should help him, as it does virtually all 3s now that traditional Davis brother type 4s are largely obsolete).

Poeltl-Koloko
Barnes-Achiuwa
OG-Hayward/Porter
Trent-Scoot/MLE
VanVleet-Scoot

and either Hayward expires and our cap situation is clean, or we move Hayward for a backup wing, either with a pick (for a good 6th man type) or some meh guys on smaller deals from a team wanting cap space, like Brooklyn with their extra wings. Ideally you sign like Josh Richardson or Strus with the MLE but probably actually get like Lonnie Walker or Nunn or someone like that. We should have signed Malik Monk, that was annoying to miss on him twice, same as Hartenstein.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1239079-10-craziest-draft-day-trades-of-all-time.amp.html

Draft day trades are usually one-sided e.g. Antonio Davis for Johnthan Bender. I would be reluctant to make the above trade due to history of draft day trades.

Totally fair. It's a high-risk move, but unless Masai really likes a shot creating guard and one falls to us (Smith or George seem the likeliest) then I'm not sure how we address that spot, and we're obviously in a weird spot where we aren't a contender but can't tank.

I guess I could see us moving the pick for a future 1st and something else and looking to move Boucher and that pick into a guard down the line?

[OakleyDokely]

I think Black can have a Dyson Daniels type impact right away just because he does a lot of things at an above average level. He may never be an elite scorer, but guys who can defend multiple spots, pass, rebound, create turnovers, pressure the rim etc find minutes quickly.

[WuTang_CMB]

We are going guard or wing this draft. That's certain.

Ideally we want BPA. Gotta hope Cason or Wallace fall to 15 but losing faith in that. Even Black likely going to go in the lottery.

Sidy or Rupert might be the guys at 15.

[OakleyDokely]

Raps going to take Leonard Miller and it will be a good pick.

[Yallbecrazy]

Raps will probably trade the pick for a veteran.