Was Jordan's supporting cast in 1997-98 weak?

[AEnigma]

Superteams generally comprise of 3-4 different all NBA level players. LeBron has played on far more superteams and with more talent than Jordan, yes.

Bosh made all-NBA once, four years before joining the Heat. Kyrie did not make all-NBA until 2017.

Pippen was not a top 5 player.

He was first-team all-NBA three years in a row and finished third in MVP voting. When was Wade top five after 2011? When were Bosh or Kyrie or Love ever top ten?

Top 10 sure, but not an elite #1 scoring option or someone who could carry an offense.

Oh boy back to ppg.

(Pippen literally did carry the offence without Jordan, but go off.)

LeBron has been with far more #1 option type players who could easily take the offensive burden off him when necessary - Kyrie, Love, Bosh, Wade, Davis etc. Outside of Kyrie and Love they were all great defensive players too.

So is that why the teams generally cratered without him? Because they were all just so good at handling that burden?

Again, what were these players doing before Lebron. Davis had been in the postseason twice. Love never, and never since (save now for this year where he will make it as a buyout piece). Kyrie never. Bosh was a two-time first-round exit with one above .500 team and had spent his past two years as the “leader” of a -2 SRS team. And yes, Wade was good, but since Shaq left he was stuck in first round exit land too.

Wade carried the 2006 Heat to the title. Shaq was a shell of himself.

Weird how that had not been replicated in the five years since.

Jordan never played with someone capable of leading a team to a ring

Pippen absolutely was. A better starter than Pete Myers and the 1994 Bulls go back to the Finals.

not to mention who also did it before him

Yeah, 2006 Wade really affected 2011-14 Wade.

and vastly vaaaastly outplayed him in the Finals.

Yet weirdly the Mavericks were more focused on Lebron. Wonder why.

Jordan passed Hakeem very early into his career. He had vastly inferior teams to 80s Hakeem hence the early round exits.

Lol.

Jordan was losing in the 1st round with bad teams in a tough conference.

Is a tough conference why he could not hit .500 until his fourth year? Why he could not go past 50-wins until his sixth year?

LeBron was making the Finals every year in one of the weakest conferences in league history. Not hard to make the Finals every year if your competition is the Roy Hibbert/Paul George Pacers, 2015 Atlanta Hawks, washed up & aging Celtics (whom he could barely defeat with a far superior team anyway), perennial laughingstock Toronto Raptors, etc.

Not hard to win the Finals if your competition is an injured Lakers at the tail end if their window, Clyde Drexler, a defensively inept Suns team, George Karl’s Sonics, and Jerry’s Sloan’s ever-clutch Stockton/Malone Jazz.

Jordan was coming off 2 years of retirement playing a different sport. Can’t be that desperate to count 1995 against him.

Oh so he forgot how to play? Damn, why even bother with Rodman then, right.

I never said anyone’s better off losing in the conference finals, you did yourself.

And no, you can’t actually name any series (most importantly Finals is what we’re looking for) where Jordan wet the bed like LeBron did in 2011 & 2007

Not when all you are looking at is the scoring totals, no.

or even when he played poorly like in 2014. That’s because they don’t actually exist. Nice try!

Lol.
If Lebron played poorly in the 2014 Finals, then Jordan was absolutely atrocious against the 1985 Bucks, the 1986 Celtics (talk about statpadding!), the 1987 Celtics (not even a good defence), the 1988 Pistons, the 1989 Pistons, the 1991 76ers, the 1992 Knicks, the 1993 Knicks, the 1995 Magic, the 1996 Sonics, the 1997 Hawks, the 1997 Heat… hell, I could probably keep going. But here again this is not a serious criticism because you do not care about analysing any of this in a coherent or meaningful way.

So what? Bosh was top 4 in PER before joining Miami.

Wade was a superstar and top 3 player.

True. And then they won two titles when he was not.

Davis was a superstar and light years better than any big man Jordan played with.

True, and they immediately won a dominant title. Since then, health and poor construction has kept the team down.

Kyrie & Love were both 25-27+ ppg elite offensive weapons that Jordan never had.

Kyrie was not until 2017, and then that team ran into the “10 SRS + peak Durant” Warriors. But yet again we see you conflating offence for overall quality. Neither of them was as good as Pippen, even though Pippen scored less. And having both of them did not make them an inherently better team than more balanced ones, like the Bulls. If Love had been replaced with someone like Paul Millsap, for example, they would probably be a better team. Because basketball is not about stacking scorers. The more tied a player’s value is to scoring, the more value they lose when they are put next to other scorers. But the funniest part of this is that Pippen, despite not being as good a scorer as either, still led a better team than any led by those two, or Bosh, or Davis, and even true solo act Wade. Scoring volume alone means nothing. Would the Bulls have been better with Dominique and Chambers instead of Pippen and Grant?

These players were elite players before they joined LeBron, hence why LeBron clamored to play with them all the time.

And players are not universally good at team-building lol. Jordan himself is one of the best examples.

Jordan didn’t have any elite players on the team he joined, but yes Pippen did eventually turn into one after playing with Jordan.

But Orlando Woolridge was a 23 ppg scorer in 1985. Lebron did not have a 20ppg scorer until he went to Miami!

All of those Finals teams Jordan played you mentioned were far better than the junk LeBron played in the East to make the Finals.

Perhaps, but I do not trust your ability to assess any of that outside of blindly citing names at me.

I will grant that Jordan never played a team as good as the 17 or 18 Warriors, but that’s like 2 seasons. Nothing particularly special about any of LeBron’s other Finals opponents.

You are too much man.

In fact, LeBron had by far the weakest Finals opponent maybe in league history playing the 5 seed 2020 Heat who were missing like half their roster.

True, unfortunate that they had to go beat the Bucks and that the Nuggets had to go beat the Clippers.

But if the 2020 Heat were “missing like half their roster”, I wonder what you make of the 1991 Lakers.

He didn’t forget to play but it’s hard to come back from 2 years off while playing a different sport. LeBron in like twice the amount of seasons played couldn’t even 3-peat once, which Jordan managed to do before 94.

Almost like roster construction and Finals opponents matter!

No, Pippen was not capable of carrying a team to a title. He was known as a “second fiddle” for a reason.

The reason being that he spent his entire career next to Jordan lmao. Kobe was a second fiddle to Shaq, guess he was incapable of leading teams too.

Not a top 3 player

By what, ppg again?

capable of averaging 30/5/8 and being the best player in the game a la Dwyane Wade. Nice try though.

True, but that is not necessarily what you need to win a title.

LeBron played poorly in the 2014 Finals yes, more poorly than Jordan did in any of his Finals. Not sure what bringing up random early round series is trying to accomplish, but we’re talking about Finals. His mid range game and outside jumper were very weak and the Spurs exposed that the entire series. The numbers themselves don’t look bad due to stat padding but it wasn’t a good series.

Doubling down on a lie does not changed what actually happened.

And LeBron in 2011 and 2007 was just atrocious, which Jordan never was in the Finals.

Jordan never played in the Finals against a team or defence as good as the 2007 Spurs, nor with a team as abject as the rest of the 2007 Cavaliers. This is actual desperation. In any case though, this comes back to you seemingly preferring an earlier round exit than to ever mar “perfection”. No need to objectively analyse Jordan because he won, and no need to objectively analyse Lebron because he lost. Just spam what you heard on First Take and move on.

[rim213221]

True. And then they won two titles when he was not.

Awesome. Jordan won every title out of 6 with a non-top 3 player and did so in far less time. He never choked away a Finals with a top 3 player like LeBron did. Nobody said Wade was a top 3 player after 2011.

Davis was a superstar and light years better than any big man Jordan played with.
True

Correct. So far, far faaar more big men help that LeBron had.

Kyrie was not until 2017, and then that team ran into the “10 SRS + peak Durant” Warriors. But yet again we see you conflating offence for overall quality. Neither of them was as good as Pippen, even though Pippen scored less. And having both of them did not make them an inherently better team than more balanced ones, like the Bulls. If Love had been replaced with someone like Paul Millsap, for example, they would probably be a better team. Because basketball is not about stacking scorers. The more tied a player’s value is to scoring, the more value they lose when they are put next to other scorers. But the funniest part of this is that Pippen, despite not being as good a scorer as either, still led a better team than any led by those two, or Bosh, or Davis, and even true solo act Wade. Scoring volume alone means nothing. Would the Bulls have been better with Dominique and Chambers instead of Pippen and Grant?

Your desperation act of clinging to the lone 94 season as evidence that Pippen could lead a team to deep playoffs success is getting kind of old. Coming off a 3-peat with a championship roster and culture, the 94 Bulls team played better than they were expected to. It's not evidence that Pippen was someone who could regularly lead a team to 55+ wins.

And players are not universally good at team-building lol. Jordan himself is one of the best examples.

Or evidence that LeBron is too ball dominant making his teammates worse. Bosh, Love, Wade etc all had significantly worse numbers than they were capable of putting up once joining LeBron.

True, unfortunate that they had to go beat the Bucks and that the Nuggets had to go beat the Clippers.

I mean yea, that's the point. Very weak competition to and during the FInals.

But if the 2020 Heat were “missing like half their roster”, I wonder what you make of the 1991 Lakers.

A not at full strength team at the tail end of one of the most dominant dynasties in NBA history still anchored by an MVP and superstar GOAT PG. Certainly more impressive competition than a 5th seeded team nobody expected to get past the 1st round. LeBron essentially played a 1st round playoffs team in the FInals.

The reason being that he spent his entire career next to Jordan lmao. Kobe was a second fiddle to Shaq, guess he was incapable of leading teams too.


By what, ppg again?

No, lmao. By common sense objective measures. It's ok that you didn't watch the 90's, as suggesting that Pippen was ever near a top 3 player is evidence of that. Overall impact and dominance showed that players like Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson were all well ahead of Pippen as far as 90's players are concerned. Very debatable are guys like Drexler, Miller, Mourning, Kemp, Stockton etc. Not on all-time rankings / career accolades, but in terms of individual ranking in the league.

.
True, but that is not necessarily what you need to win a title.

Well it certainly makes it much easier to win a title. Generally the team with the most talent wins, and having more talent makes it a lot easier to win than having less talent.

Doubling down on a lie does not changed what actually happened.

Correct, so not sure why you are defending LeBron's mediocre 2014 FInals performance.

Jordan never played in the Finals against a team or defence as good as the 2007 Spurs, nor with a team as abject as the rest of the 2007 Cavaliers. This is actual desperation. In any case though, this comes back to you seemingly preferring an earlier round exit than to ever mar “perfection”. No need to objectively analyse Jordan because he won, and no need to objectively analyse Lebron because he lost. Just spam what you heard on First Take and move on.

Yes he did, the 96 Sonics were on par defensively to the 14 Spurs and were a better overall team. LeBron never played in a difficult Eastern Conference at all and it was a bye to the FInals every year, hence why he could make the Finals with an 'abject' team like the 2007 Cavs. I objectively do not blame LeBron for losing to an unfairly loaded team in the 17 and 18 Warriors, but people like you act like the deck has been stacked against him his entire career when it was really only 2 seasons. There's no need to objectively analyze anything when you compare Jordan's 1st round series with bad teams to LeBron's horrid Finals meltdowns.

[TheLand13]

Everyone was not injured for the first 21 games where they played at a 18-win pace(15 wins if you go by record).

West, Z and Shaq are not the difference between a team being the bottom of the barrel and in the middle. Stop with your idiotic takes.

Read!
West, Z, Shaq, Mo Williams, Verajoa, Moon and Jamison being missing so many games was most of their team being gone.
You just made an idiotic repply. I said the missing guys plus the injured guys. Just face it, you are having irrational reactions because you are attached to a false narrative trashing LeBron’s teammates to make LeBron look better.

What do they have left of the 2010 team.
Hickson.
Parker minus 10 games.
Gibson minus 14 games.
2/3rds of a season of Jamison.
1/2 of a season of Moon.
1/3 of a season of Mo Williams
1/3 of a season of Verajao

You have plenty of company in trashing LeBron’s teammates to make LeBron look better. We can disagree to a point about how good LeBron’s teammates were but the degree to which you want to trash LeBron’s teammates is not realistic. You know that team better than I do but you are wrong anyway.

A bunch of lower end role players does not make a 28+ win difference. Again, stop with your idiotic takes.

[TheLand13]

LeBron played poorly in the 2014 Finals yes, more poorly than Jordan did in any of his Finals.

Stop trying to claim LeBron played poorly in that series. No he didn't and we already established that you didn't watch the series anyways so you have no idea what you're talking about. There's nothing poor about 28 PPG on 57% shooting from the field.

[AEnigma]

True. And then they won two titles when he was not.

Awesome. Jordan won every title out of 6 with a non-top 3 player and did so in far less time. He never choked away a Finals with a top 3 player like LeBron did. Nobody said Wade was a top 3 player after 2011.

Because he had better top to bottom roster against rosters which were worse top to bottom. Team-building does not stop because you have two top three players.

Davis was a superstar and light years better than any big man Jordan played with.
True

Correct. So far, far faaar more big men help that LeBron had.

Oh is there bonus points now for having a superstar big, or is this more of you ignoring any actual thoughts behind what constitutes a championship roster.

Kyrie was not until 2017, and then that team ran into the “10 SRS + peak Durant” Warriors. But yet again we see you conflating offence for overall quality. Neither of them was as good as Pippen, even though Pippen scored less. And having both of them did not make them an inherently better team than more balanced ones, like the Bulls. If Love had been replaced with someone like Paul Millsap, for example, they would probably be a better team. Because basketball is not about stacking scorers. The more tied a player’s value is to scoring, the more value they lose when they are put next to other scorers. But the funniest part of this is that Pippen, despite not being as good a scorer as either, still led a better team than any led by those two, or Bosh, or Davis, and even true solo act Wade. Scoring volume alone means nothing. Would the Bulls have been better with Dominique and Chambers instead of Pippen and Grant?

:lol: Your desperation act of clinging to the lone 94 season as evidence that Pippen could lead a team to deep playoffs success is getting kind of old. Coming off a 3-peat with a championship roster and culture, the 94 Bulls team played better than they were expected to. It's not evidence that Pippen was someone who could regularly lead a team to 55+ wins.

Yes, the desperation of… looking at what happened… is so much more desperate that pretending a team coming off a threepeat is inherently going to “overperform”.

And players are not universally good at team-building lol. Jordan himself is one of the best examples.

Or evidence that LeBron is too ball dominant making his teammates worse. Bosh, Love, Wade etc all had significantly worse numbers than they were capable of putting up once joining LeBron.

The fact you seem to think they would maintain their numbers next to Michael “highest shot volume in history” Jordan says everything about your ability to perceive the sport accurately.

True, unfortunate that they had to go beat the Bucks and that the Nuggets had to go beat the Clippers.

I mean yea, that's the point. Very weak competition to and during the FInals.

Weak competition in what sense. Again, how are you bothering to assess any of this.

But if the 2020 Heat were “missing like half their roster”, I wonder what you make of the 1991 Lakers.

A not at full strength team at the tail end of one of the most dominant dynasties in NBA history still anchored by an MVP and superstar GOAT PG. Certainly more impressive competition than a 5th seeded team nobody expected to get past the 1st round. LeBron essentially played a 1st round playoffs team in the FInals.

Perhaps, but again, you are not really assessing the capability or quality of these teams beyond the seeds and names.

The reason being that he spent his entire career next to Jordan lmao. Kobe was a second fiddle to Shaq, guess he was incapable of leading teams too.

By what, ppg again?

No, lmao. By common sense objective measures. It's ok that you didn't watch the 90's, as suggesting that Pippen was ever near a top 3 player is evidence of that.

You talk like someone more interested in what some talking head said about the 1990s than someone who cares about watching it.

Overall impact

By what measure?

and dominance

Points per game again?

showed that players like Jordan, Hakeem,

Yes.

Shaq,

Depending on the year, sure, but I do find it funny you would probably assert this even in years in which he got swept in the first round or missed the playoffs outright.

Malone

Depending on the year, yes, but not exactly an inspiring record of playoff leadership himself.

Barkley, Ewing,

Based on what “impact” here.

Robinson

Another top playoff guy!

were all well ahead of Pippen as far as 90's players are concerned. Very debatable are guys like Drexler, Miller, Mourning, Kemp, Stockton etc. Not on all-time rankings / career accolades, but in terms of individual ranking in the league.

This man said Stockton, I am dying.

True, but that is not necessarily what you need to win a title.

Well it certainly makes it much easier to win a title. Generally the team with the most talent wins, and having more talent makes it a lot easier to win than having less talent.

But is “talent” being assessed by just looking at two or three names and stopping?

Doubling down on a lie does not changed what actually happened.

Correct, so not sure why you are defending LeBron's mediocre 2014 FInals performance.

Because you have been caught lying about it once already. Do you need a refresher?

Jordan never played in the Finals against a team or defence as good as the 2007 Spurs, nor with a team as abject as the rest of the 2007 Cavaliers. This is actual desperation. In any case though, this comes back to you seemingly preferring an earlier round exit than to ever mar “perfection”. No need to objectively analyse Jordan because he won, and no need to objectively analyse Lebron because he lost. Just spam what you heard on First Take and move on.

Yes he did, the 96 Sonics were on par defensively to the 14 Spurs and were a better overall team.

We were talking 2007, and in any case, laughably wrong unless you give a bonus for “playing in the 1990s”. Worse SRS, worse ELO, worse playoff performance… nothing but more Jordan delusions.

LeBron never played in a difficult Eastern Conference at all

Lie.

and it was a bye to the FInals every year,

Copium.

hence why he could make the Finals with an 'abject' team like the 2007 Cavs.

2007 was admittedly weak, but the funny thing is that Pistons team was better than the 1991 Pistons team Jordan beat.

I objectively do not blame LeBron for losing to an unfairly loaded team in the 17 and 18 Warriors, but people like you act like the deck has been stacked against him his entire career when it was really only 2 seasons.

2018 is a level of its own, but he was similarly disadvantaged in 2006-08, 2014, and 2015 — all without even talking about 2016. Yeah, Jordan made the most of when he had the advantage, but every time he did not, he did not even make the Finals, because winning a title at a disadvantage is immensely difficult, and winning a title at a severe disadvantage has basically never happened.

There's no need to objectively analyze anything when you compare Jordan's 1st round series with bad teams to LeBron's horrid Finals meltdowns.

If you were interested in objective analysis, you would not be excoriating 22-year-old Lebron for going farther than anything Jordan did prior to 1991.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

West, Z and Shaq are not the difference between a team being the bottom of the barrel and in the middle. Stop with your idiotic takes.

Read!
West, Z, Shaq, Mo Williams, Verajoa, Moon and Jamison being missing so many games was most of their team being gone.
You just made an idiotic repply. I said the missing guys plus the injured guys. Just face it, you are having irrational reactions because you are attached to a false narrative trashing LeBron’s teammates to make LeBron look better.

What do they have left of the 2010 team.
Hickson.
Parker minus 10 games.
Gibson minus 14 games.
2/3rds of a season of Jamison.
1/2 of a season of Moon.
1/3 of a season of Mo Williams
1/3 of a season of Verajao

You have plenty of company in trashing LeBron’s teammates to make LeBron look better. We can disagree to a point about how good LeBron’s teammates were but the degree to which you want to trash LeBron’s teammates is not realistic. You know that team better than I do but you are wrong anyway.

A bunch of lower end role players does not make a 28+ win difference. Again, stop with your idiotic takes.

Are you seriously saying thar Loosing 2/3rds of a season of Mo Williams, losing 2/3rds of a season of Verajao, losing 1/3rd of a season of Jamison, losing 1/2 season of Moon, losing 10 games of Parker, losing 14 games of Gibson, losing a full season of Delonte West, losing a full season of Shaq and losing a full seaon of Big Z all combined does not matter and that the only thing that mattered was losing LeBron?

[rim213221]

Because he had better top to bottom roster against rosters which were worse top to bottom. Team-building does not stop because you have two top three players.

And he was also a better player than LeBron. Certainly debatable if he had better rosters than his opponents in 97 & 98. He certainly never lost with a superior roster which LeBron did on multiple occasions. Depth and 4 thru 12 matters for sure, but not as much as the superstars/star talent especially in the playoffs.

Oh is there bonus points now for having a superstar big, or is this more of you ignoring any actual thoughts behind what constitutes a championship roster.

Yes there is, you'd like to ignore it unfortunately as it makes LeBron looks worse.

Yes, the desperation of… looking at what happened… is so much more desperate that pretending a team coming off a threepeat is inherently going to “overperform”.

It is desperation. You obviously don't understand Pippen's game and style of play if you think he could be a regular #1 option on an elite team. That wasn't his playing style at all and he didn't have the skillset of a #1.

The fact you seem to think they would maintain their numbers next to Michael “highest shot volume in history” Jordan says everything about your ability to perceive the sport accurately.

Who knows, but given that Jordan was a much better off-ball player it's hard to imagine they'd be much worse playing next to him than with LeBron.

Again, how are you bothering to assess any of this.

Pretty obvious. Dodged the best teams of that season, didn't play anyone particularly difficult in the West and played one of the worst teams to ever make the FInals.

You talk like someone more interested in what some talking head said about the 1990s than someone who cares about watching it.

By what measure?

Points per game again?

Yes.

Depending on the year, sure, but I do find it funny you would probably assert this even in years in which he got swept in the first round or missed the playoffs outright.

Depending on the year, yes, but not exactly an inspiring record of playoff leadership himself.

Based on what “impact” here.

Another top playoff guy!

This man said Stockton, I am dying.

No, not what talking heads say, but you're clearly someone who didn't watch the 90's seriously suggesting that Pippen was ever in the same galaxy as Shaq as a player. Not only Shaq, but several former MVP players like Barkley, Malone, Robinson and other MVP caliber players like Ewing. I at least have the decency to admit I did not watch 60's / 70's players so I refrain from making ridiculous player comparisons when it comes to that era of players. This guy seriously puts Pippen in the same class as Malone, Barkley, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing.

But is “talent” being assessed by just looking at two or three names and stopping?

No but the more top heavy a team is the more talented they generally are. And LeBron's teams were pretty much always more top heavy than Jordan's and he still accomplished less. There isn't that big of a difference between the two players and their 4 thru 15's.

We were talking 2007, and in any case, laughably wrong unless you give a bonus for “playing in the 1990s”. Worse SRS, worse ELO, worse playoff performance… nothing but more Jordan delusions.

No, laughably correct. SRS and ELO? Who cares. Nothing but LeBron delusions thinking the 14 Spurs were on some different level than the 96 Sonics. Very comparable teams relative to their own era. Backed up by "SRS", defensive rating, wins, etc. 97 & 98 Jazz were also every bit as good as the 14 Spurs.

hence why he could make the Finals with an 'abject' team like the 2007 Cavs.2007 was admittedly weak, but the funny thing is that Pistons team was better than the 1991 Pistons team Jordan beat.

Ok...? Jordan's road to the FInals and his Eastern conference was better than any Eastern conference LeBron played in. He played in a conference with zero legitimate contenders, hence why he frequently got waxed once he played real competition in the West.

If you were interested in objective analysis, you would not be excoriating 22-year-old Lebron for going farther than anything Jordan did prior to 1991.

I'm not excoriating him for getting to the FInals. But getting shut down and wetting the bed in the FInals is not a good look when compared to someone who always delivered in the Finals. The criticism comes from LeBron being a clearly worse FInals performer than Jordan.

[DCasey91]

LeBron had good help in 2009 and 2010 which is why he won 60 + games in those years instead of 40 something games in 2008.
Give LeBron a little more help and he wins the championship.
Give any 60 win team a little more help and they win the championship.

Who was the second and third best players in those seasons? I really don’t think old Shaq or what have you are acceptable. Celtics were loaded (Rondo peaked early making it a big 4) and Orlando was in their prime (starting 5 was basically prime age).

Only talking about 2009
Mo williams 2
Verajao 3
Maybe Joe Smith 4
Maybe Delonte 5
Maybe Wally 6
Maybe big Z 7
Maybe Ben Wallace 8
Maybe Gibson 8

When you get to Sasha and Buechler and the bottom of the line up Bulls might be better than Cavs at the bottom of the line up but those bottom guys barely play and don’t matter. 3 through 8 Cavs are the better group. Actually this is Wennington vs Hickson and Ii prefer Wennington.

Pippen is clearly the 3rd best player after Jordan and LeBron on the combined teams
I am giving diminished Rodman, Kukoc Mo williams a tie for players 4 through 8
There is nobody on the Bulls team after that that is in the top 2/3rds of the NBa in terms of quality with the possible exception of Longley. Harper was not actually good even though he was very good when he was young.

Cavaliers had better players than the Bulls after Pippen vs Mo Williams which goes to the Bulls.

Give LeBron the Bulls supporting cast minus Pippen in 2009 replacing the Cavs and that team does not win 50 games.

Support cast without Pippen? That’s a non argument then isn’t it. Why give diminishing returns to a GOAT level rebounder? That’s like saying oh that team can’t win X amount but we have to minus another quality player to make it fair.

Harper was clearly a positive on defence and was less of a liability the Mo imo when it mattered. Kukoc played well in the playoffs let’s not forget.

3 through 8 are better for the Cavs? Sorry but time and continuity must be taken into consideration.

I really don’t get your point here.

[DCasey91]

Right but those Pistons teams didn’t face Jordan in the Finals,

Lol

nor did they do so when he had an established superteam

True, once Jordan had the superteam and once all the 1980s title teams broke down, he made good use of his advantage.

where he teamed up with a top 3 player on his own franchise and another perennial 21/10 all star big man. Despite this LeBron still got blown off the floor in the Finals playing with 2 stars and honestly did not even play well that series regardless of what end of game stat padding numbers suggest. Spurs sagged off LeBron the entire series daring him to shoot and he couldn’t deliver. Wasn’t quite as bad as 2007 or 2011, but it’s hard to be worse than that in the Finals.

Lol so Wade was a top three player after 2011?

More goes into team-building than star-counting. Never stops being funny how the guy who is the best example of that has this army of automatons constantly trying to argue otherwise.

Jordan certainly never came close to being that bad when it counted.

Jordan had plenty of series where he was much worse than 2014 Finals Lebron, but more often than not, his team was able to pull up the slack.

Iconic superstar duo of Shaq/Penny…yes. Unless you think a perennial 12/9 Horace Grant is what “led” the Magic to the Finals that season.

I think he elevated them to that level, yes. But you are right, he did not score too much, so must just be a fluke how consistently he helped teams be better than the sum of their points per game.

That’s great… if I want to win, I’ll take Jordan from his draft class well above Hakeem who didn’t win anything until Jordan retired.

Jordan never won anything without Pippen there. When he had a cast like Hakeem’s, he could not even make it out of the second round, let alone win a title.

Certainly will take him over LeBron as he has never proven he can win anything with an “inferior” team as every title he’s won has been with top 3 players or multiple all-stars who regularly averaged 27/5/5, 25/13/4, etc.

Jordan had an eight-time all-NBA teammate, the most successful coach in league history, and a perfect fitting team around him… and still never came close to beating anyone on the level of the 2016 Warriors.

Horace Grant was a decent role player yea, but nothing close to a star, hence the difference. Bosh was a 24/11 top 4 PER player when he joined LeBron. Wade was the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league. Davis was a 28/11 dominant 2-way big man who was far more dominant than any big Jordan had.

That’s the difference - not the ppg, the starpower- LeBron has played with far more and still accomplished less despite having way more time. It’s just too bad!

Are you sure it is not the ppg? Because when all you do to support “star power” is cite ppg at me, that tends to give the impression that your idea of team-building is just stack the most scorers together and assume that will win, like a middle-schooler playing 2K for the first time.

Jordan never had a superteam… certainly not to the extent that LeBron did by having multiple #1 scoring options all on the same team.

Wade was a top 3 player when LeBron teamed up with him and quite significantly better than any teammate Jordan had. Despite that LeBron got smoked in the Finals in 2011 and outplayed by both his own teammate and Dirk. Never happened to Jordan unfortunately!

No, Jordan had no series worse than 2007 and 2011 Finals LeBron. Also probably had no Finals worse than 2014 LeBron. 1996 is the only one that’s even close.

Hakeem was great but certainly didnt win anything until Jordan retired. And also led a bunch of teams to missed playoffs appearances and early exits.

You can think a solid role player “elevated” them all you want to, but in general most teams are elevated by their superstar(s). Relative to his era Horace Grant was not considered in the same class among PFs as Kevin Love, Anthony Davis and Chris Bosh. Pretty obvious LeBron played with far more talent yet lost far more.

LeBron played with far more stars (all who were all-NBA caliber before he ever even teamed up with them, unlike Pippen), all-NBA teammates, #1 scoring options, elite double double big men and still failed in the Finals far more than Jordan despite playing way more and in a cupcake easy Eastern Conference where a Finals appearance was a given every year. And despite playing with far more talent he could never lead a team to a top 1-5 all time season like the 96 Bulls or 92 Bulls. Jordan can’t play a team like the 16 Warriors if he is the one leading teams to 72 wins himself, something LeBron was never capable of despite playing with far more talent and in a total
joke of a conference. Low-mid 50 win seasons was all he was capable of.

Jordan never had a super team? Please now I’ve heard it all. I believe Analytics/metrics don’t capture the true extent of Rodman’s outlier rebounding ability.

If I had to guess the Bulls had a large % of extra shots and extra offensive rebounds relative to league average

I don’t know but 96 is pretty much a stacked/super team if to take into account your still getting Jordan, Pippen and an all in Rodman.

[AEnigma]

Because he had better top to bottom roster against rosters which were worse top to bottom. Team-building does not stop because you have two top three players.

And he was also a better player than LeBron.

Nope, but the irony is that him being a worse player is what allowed them to build their championship roster.

Certainly debatable if he had better rosters than his opponents in 97 & 98.

Only among die-hard Jordan stans.

He certainly never lost with a superior roster which LeBron did on multiple occasions.

Lol

Depth and 4 thru 12 matters for sure, but not as much as the superstars/star talent especially in the playoffs.

Citation needed.

Oh is there bonus points now for having a superstar big, or is this more of you ignoring any actual thoughts behind what constitutes a championship roster.

Yes there is, you'd like to ignore it unfortunately as it makes LeBron looks worse.

Bro literally inventing a “big man bonus” and talking about trying to make other players look worse

Yes, the desperation of… looking at what happened… is so much more desperate that pretending a team coming off a threepeat is inherently going to “overperform”.

It is desperation. You obviously don't understand Pippen's game and style of play if you think he could be a regular #1 option on an elite team. That wasn't his playing style at all and he didn't have the skillset of a #1.

Skillset here meaning, be a top ten scorer, right.

The fact you seem to think they would maintain their numbers next to Michael “highest shot volume in history” Jordan says everything about your ability to perceive the sport accurately.

Who knows, but given that Jordan was a much better off-ball player it's hard to imagine they'd be much worse playing next to him than with LeBron.

Given that all of them except Wade prefer to be set-up, per usual, your imagination is disconnected from reality.

Again, how are you bothering to assess any of this.

Pretty obvious. Dodged the best teams of that season, didn't play anyone particularly difficult in the West and played one of the worst teams to ever make the FInals.

Sick tautology.

You talk like someone more interested in what some talking head said about the 1990s than someone who cares about watching it.

By what measure?

Points per game again?

Yes.

Depending on the year, sure, but I do find it funny you would probably assert this even in years in which he got swept in the first round or missed the playoffs outright.

Depending on the year, yes, but not exactly an inspiring record of playoff leadership himself.

Based on what “impact” here.

Another top playoff guy!

This man said Stockton, I am dying.

No, not what talking heads say, but you're clearly someone who didn't watch the 90's seriously suggesting that Pippen was ever in the same galaxy as Shaq as a player. Not only Shaq, but several former MVP players like Barkley, Malone, Robinson and other MVP caliber players like Ewing. I at least have the decency to admit I did not watch 60's / 70's players so I refrain from making ridiculous player comparisons when it comes to that era of players. This guy seriously puts Pippen in the same class as Malone, Barkley, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing.

And your reasoning… again, let me guess, points per game.

But is “talent” being assessed by just looking at two or three names and stopping?

No but the more top heavy a team is the more talented they generally are. And LeBron's teams were pretty much always more top heavy than Jordan's and he still accomplished less.

Because being “top heavy” is not actually how championship teams tend to be built.

There isn't that big of a difference between the two players and their 4 thru 15's.

As always, based on nothing other than a gut feeling that Jordan was better and therefore must have had it tougher.

We were talking 2007, and in any case, laughably wrong unless you give a bonus for “playing in the 1990s”. Worse SRS, worse ELO, worse playoff performance… nothing but more Jordan delusions.

No, laughably correct. SRS and ELO? Who cares. Nothing but LeBron delusions thinking the 14 Spurs were on some different level than the 96 Sonics.

Yeah man, total Lebron stan take to say the 2014 Spurs were an all-time team. Even by the usual Jordan arguments, this is comically embarrassing.

Very comparable teams relative to their own era.

Not in the slightest. The Sonics were one of the all-time least reliable postseason teams ever while the Spurs personified “the beautiful game”.

Backed up by "SRS"

Wrong.

defensive rating,

Oh well in that case the 2014 Spurs were only like the eighth best Duncan Spurs team.

wins

In an expansion era lol.

97 & 98 Jazz were also every bit as good as the 14 Spurs.

In stitches over your love for notorious postseason wilters. Going to use this as future PSA against the dangers of Jordan addiction. At least the 1997 Jazz had a similar SRS, but this is becoming painful.

hence why he could make the Finals with an 'abject' team like the 2007 Cavs.2007 was admittedly weak, but the funny thing is that Pistons team was better than the 1991 Pistons team Jordan beat.

Ok...? Jordan's road to the FInals and his Eastern conference was better than any Eastern conference LeBron played in. He played in a conference with zero legitimate contenders, hence why he frequently got waxed once he played real competition in the West.

… As opposed to all the Eastern contenders during Jordan’s runs? Again, you do not care about justifying any of this, you just look at the names and look at them losing to Jordan and have all you need.

If you were interested in objective analysis, you would not be excoriating 22-year-old Lebron for going farther than anything Jordan did prior to 1991.

I'm not excoriating him for getting to the FInals. But getting shut down and wetting the bed in the FInals is not a good look when compared to someone who always delivered in the Finals. The criticism comes from LeBron being a clearly worse FInals performer than Jordan.

Jordan faced worse teams and worse defences in the Finals, went less often, and always had the better team. Yet again, the only real reason you have to take Jordan comes back to raw points per game, because analysing the sport past that is completely beyond your capacity.

[rim213221]

Nope, but the irony is that him being a worse player is what allowed them to build their championship roster.

Yup, there's no irony to it. LeBron is the inferior player and lost more despite playing with superior talent. Lost more in the regular season, lost more in the FInals, etc. Not complicated. Literally the only thing he has is longevity since he chose to play longer. Just makes him a longer playing player, not a better one.

Only among die-hard Jordan stans.

Not at all. LeBron stans will try do prop up the 2014 Spurs as if they had a much better roster than the Heat even when they didn't.

Lol

Strong argument!

Bro literally inventing a “big man bonus” and talking about trying to make other players look worse

It's not an invention... it's a fact. LeBron played with several big men who were anywhere from top 5-10 players in the entire league before they ever played with LeBron. He's played with top 3-4 PER players in Davis, Love and Bosh. Jordan never had a big man who approached those of LeBron's in PER.

And your reasoning… again, let me guess, points per game.

When you make crazy claims that defy common sense and historical evidence, the onus of proof is on you to justify your argument, not vice versa. Therefore, you, clearly not having watched the 90's (which is ok) and thinking Pippen was on the same level as Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson as a player, should provide your reasoning as to why he was.

But I can make my own equivalent claims about the modern era also. Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Paul George, Anthony Davis were all comparable to LeBron James, Kevin Durant and Steph Curry relative to their era! See? Easy, no common sense needed

Because being “top heavy” is not actually how championship teams tend to be built.

Uh, yes, they actually are.

Yeah man, total Lebron stan take to say the 2014 Spurs were an all-time team. Even by the usual Jordan arguments, this is comically embarrassing.

An all-time team because they destroyed LeBron in embarrassing fashion? Sure...I guess so. If they're an all-time team then so are the 96 Sonics and 97 Jazz. Very equivalent teams.

In an expansion era lol.

LeBron's East was the Toronto Raptors era. Hibbert Pacers era. or the Atlanta Hawks era.

At least the 1997 Jazz had a similar SRS, but this is becoming painful.

Correct, and an MVP and all-time great duo. 2014 Spurs had no one close to MVP level. But yea, keep going on about how the 2014 Spurs were somehow on a different level than the 1997 Jazz just cus LeBron got blown out of the Finals by them.

.
… As opposed to all the Eastern contenders during Jordan’s runs? Again, you do not care about justifying any of this, you just look at the names and look at them losing to Jordan and have all you need.

I mean, yea, they were much better than the jokers LeBron played in the East as mentioned well above (repeat: Hawks, Raptors, Pacers, washed up Celtics, injured / post-Rose ACL Bulls, etc). Elite Knicks teams, Shaq/Penny Magic, Mourning/Hardaway Heat, Reggie Pacers, etc.

Jordan faced worse teams and worse defences in the Finals, went less often, and always had the better team. Yet again, the only real reason you have to take Jordan comes back to raw points per game, because analysing the sport past that is completely beyond your capacity.

LeBron faced worse teams en route to the FInals, and outside of 2 seasons (2017/2018) didn't face any team that was unbeatably all-time great as you like to pretend, he also played with far superior talent and lost much more, and also of the 10 titles combined between the two players had by far the easiest competition FInals opponent in the 2020 Heat. The reason I have to take Jordan comes back to overall dominance, offense + defense combined, better playoffs performer, better Finals performer, never choker in the Finals, etc. All of that is beyond your capacity clearly as you keep re-iterating this 'raw points per game' thing which I've never said. But hey, coming from someone who thinks Pippen was on the same level as Shaq, it's ok to admit you don't know certain things about eras you were never around to see. I don't pretend to know everything about the 60's and 70's.

[AEnigma]

Nope, but the irony is that him being a worse player is what allowed them to build their championship roster.

Yup, there's no irony to it. LeBron is the inferior player and lost more despite playing with superior talent. Lost more in the regular season, lost more in the FInals, etc. Not complicated. Literally the only thing he has is longevity since he chose to play longer. Just makes him a longer playing player, not a better one.

Except literally none of that was true prior to 1991. Lebron had weak teams and was bringing them to the Finals and to 60+ wins. So what happened, did Jordan get better? Nope, 1991 was the only championship year where Jordan was playing at his peak. The difference was the team around him and the quality of his opponents. Lebron improved and got better teams, but he started to regularly run into all-time competition. That is the difference.

Only among die-hard Jordan stans.

Not at all. LeBron stans will try do prop up the 2014 Spurs as if they had a much better roster than the Heat even when they didn't.

Well they did have more scoring in their top three so I can see why you think that. Spurs? Very balanced, ergo, low talent, not that good.

Lol

Strong argument!

Were you not making a joke? Even funnier!

Bro literally inventing a “big man bonus” and talking about trying to make other players look worse

It's not an invention... it's a fact. LeBron played with several big men who were anywhere from top 5-10 players in the entire league before they ever played with LeBron. He's played with top 3-4 PER players in Davis, Love and Bosh. Jordan never had a big man who approached those of LeBron's in PER.

Damn, weird how more people do not just use PER to decide all their player rankings.

And your reasoning… again, let me guess, points per game.

When you make crazy claims that defy common sense and historical evidence, the onus of proof is on you to justify your argument, not vice versa. Therefore, you, clearly not having watched the 90's (which is ok) and thinking Pippen was on the same level as Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson as a player, should provide your reasoning as to why he was.

The only person here exposed as not watching games is you. Literally nothing you have said has correlated to someone who sincerely follows the sport. So am I being lazy here? Sure, because I am talking with someone who seems to base all their opinions around PER and scoring totals, which means nothing said about Pippen will matter to you.

But I can make my own equivalent claims about the modern era also. Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Paul George, Anthony Davis were all comparable to LeBron James, Kevin Durant and Steph Curry relative to their era! See? Easy, no common sense needed

You could probably justify a few of those takes by ppg and PER, so if anything that seems like it would be your common sense.

Because being “top heavy” is not actually how championship teams tend to be built.

Uh, yes, they actually are.

No, championship teams have complete rosters and competent depth. Even the functional rule about them being led by a top three player holds less true than that.

Yeah man, total Lebron stan take to say the 2014 Spurs were an all-time team. Even by the usual Jordan arguments, this is comically embarrassing.

An all-time team because they destroyed LeBron in embarrassing fashion? Sure...I guess so. If they're an all-time team then so are the 96 Sonics and 97 Jazz. Very equivalent teams.

Except the Spurs were a better regular season team and elevated in the postseason even ignoring the Finals — although yes, the Finals is where the entire team was clicking and being crowned the pinnacle of basketball.

Like I said, embarrassing stuff.

In an expansion era lol.

LeBron's East was the Toronto Raptors era. Hibbert Pacers era. or the Atlanta Hawks era.

And if they played in the 1990s you would be singing their praises to no end.

At least the 1997 Jazz had a similar SRS, but this is becoming painful.

Correct, and an MVP and all-time great duo. 2014 Spurs had no one close to MVP level. But yea, keep going on about how the 2014 Spurs were somehow on a different level than the 1997 Jazz just cus LeBron got blown out of the Finals by them.

Oh cool back to only looking at teams as two or three players deep. Very serious analysis.

.… As opposed to all the Eastern contenders during Jordan’s runs? Again, you do not care about justifying any of this, you just look at the names and look at them losing to Jordan and have all you need.

I mean, yea, they were much better than the jokers LeBron played in the East as mentioned well above (repeat: Hawks, Raptors, Pacers, washed up Celtics, injured / post-Rose ACL Bulls, etc). Elite Knicks teams, Shaq/Penny Magic, Mourning/Hardaway Heat, Reggie Pacers, etc.

No arguments, only names. One group played in the 1990s and lost to Jordan, and the other played in the 2010s and lost to Lebron, and that is all you need to know.

Jordan faced worse teams and worse defences in the Finals, went less often, and always had the better team. Yet again, the only real reason you have to take Jordan comes back to raw points per game, because analysing the sport past that is completely beyond your capacity.

LeBron faced worse teams en route to the FInals, and outside of 2 seasons (2017/2018) didn't face any team that was unbeatably all-time great as you like to pretend, he also played with far superior talent and lost much more, and also of the 10 titles combined between the two players had by far the easiest competition FInals opponent in the 2020 Heat. The reason I have to take Jordan comes back to overall dominance, offense + defense combined, better playoffs performer, better Finals performer, never choker in the Finals, etc. All of that is beyond your capacity clearly as you keep re-iterating this 'raw points per game' thing which I've never said. But hey, coming from someone who thinks Pippen was on the same level as Shaq, it's ok to admit you don't know certain things about eras you were never around to see. I don't pretend to know everything about the 60's and 70's.

No, but you do pretend that regurgitating the lowest common denominator Jordan “arguments” means you understand the sport and that era. Nothing with even a semblance of substance. If I told my kid nephew to make an account and pose as a Jordan troll, he could probably offer something more principled sheerly by accident. You cannot assess offence, defence, schemes, talent, team construction, team quality, team development, team to team advantages… And every time you try, you only end up further exposing your ignorance.

If you want to make this your schtick, there are plenty of other Jordan supporters you could mimic. Instead, you do… whatever this is.

[TheLand13]

Are you seriously saying thar Loosing 2/3rds of a season of Mo Williams, losing 2/3rds of a season of Verajao, losing 1/3rd of a season of Jamison, losing 1/2 season of Moon, losing 10 games of Parker, losing 14 games of Gibson, losing a full season of Delonte West, losing a full season of Shaq and losing a full seaon of Big Z all combined does not matter and that the only thing that mattered was losing LeBron?

I'm not sure where I said that only losing LeBron mattered. Hell that was a debate that I had with Okoda not too long ago about. I'm one of the few people who argued that losing those players DID matter.

But the difference you're describing is unrealistic. None of those guys being around consistently would have made enough of a difference to the point where the Cavaliers go from 17 games won to 40. That's a massive difference that only legitimate all star level talent can change. None of those guys are all star level talent.

What on earth was Shaq, who had trouble staying on the court in 2011, going to do to help Cleveland win additional games? Z was out of the Heat's rotation entirely by the end of the season in favor of Joel Anthony. You think he was going to make a difference in Cleveland? Mo Williams was much worse without LeBron. Antawn Jaminson was past his prime. Jamario Moon? Don't make me laugh.

The only players who missed time that actually would have given Cleveland a decent amount of wins back was Varejao. That's it. And by decent, I mean maybe 3 or 4 more games won.

All in all, that entire cast being back for that season probably wins 25 games. And that's me being generous. 40 is just mind numbingly wrong to think.

Correct, and an MVP and all-time great duo. 2014 Spurs had no one close to MVP level. But yea, keep going on about how the 2014 Spurs were somehow on a different level than the 1997 Jazz just cus LeBron got blown out of the Finals by them.

Please do explain how the hell you of all people know this? Because as we've already established, you didn't watch them play at the time. And quite frankly, I have every reason to believe you didn't watch the 97 Jazz either (and by the way, the 2014 Spurs were much better than the 97 Jazz. There's no argument against it).

Either way, Jordan's Bulls have a pretty decent chance of beating this team at their peak. But then again, it helps when you have a supporting cast as good as the one Jordan had, compared to what LeBron had to work with in 2014.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Are you seriously saying thar Loosing 2/3rds of a season of Mo Williams, losing 2/3rds of a season of Verajao, losing 1/3rd of a season of Jamison, losing 1/2 season of Moon, losing 10 games of Parker, losing 14 games of Gibson, losing a full season of Delonte West, losing a full season of Shaq and losing a full seaon of Big Z all combined does not matter and that the only thing that mattered was losing LeBron?

I'm not sure where I said that only losing LeBron mattered. Hell that was a debate that I had with Okoda not too long ago about. I'm one of the few people who argued that losing those players DID matter.

But the difference you're describing is unrealistic. None of those guys being around consistently would have made enough of a difference to the point where the Cavaliers go from 17 games won to 40. That's a massive difference that only legitimate all star level talent can change. None of those guys are all star level talent.

What on earth was Shaq, who had trouble staying on the court in 2011, going to do to help Cleveland win additional games? Z was out of the Heat's rotation entirely by the end of the season in favor of Joel Anthony. You think he was going to make a difference in Cleveland? Mo Williams was much worse without LeBron. Antawn Jaminson was past his prime. Jamario Moon? Don't make me laugh.

The only players who missed time that actually would have given Cleveland a decent amount of wins back was Varejao. That's it. And by decent, I mean maybe 3 or 4 more games won.

All in all, that entire cast being back for that season probably wins 25 games. And that's me being generous. 40 is just mind numbingly wrong to think.

Correct, and an MVP and all-time great duo. 2014 Spurs had no one close to MVP level. But yea, keep going on about how the 2014 Spurs were somehow on a different level than the 1997 Jazz just cus LeBron got blown out of the Finals by them.

Please do explain how the hell you of all people know this? Because as we've already established, you didn't watch them play at the time. And quite frankly, I have every reason to believe you didn't watch the 97 Jazz either (and by the way, the 2014 Spurs were much better than the 97 Jazz. There's no argument against it).

Either way, Jordan's Bulls have a pretty decent chance of beating this team at their peak. But then again, it helps when you have a supporting cast as good as the one Jordan had, compared to what LeBron had to work with in 2014.

Even 2011 Shaq with the Celtics was not useless.
But I am talking about losing the 2010 version of those players that won 60+ games with LeBron. I think they could have won 40 games without LeBron if they were as healthy as in 2010.

Supposing over the hill Shaq and Big Z played like in 2010 but Verajao got injured; don’t the 2010 versions of Shaq and big Z play ahead of 2011 Hickson and Ryan Hollins? Hickson did not make a good impression on me. Am I underestimating Hickson?

[TheLand13]

Are you seriously saying thar Loosing 2/3rds of a season of Mo Williams, losing 2/3rds of a season of Verajao, losing 1/3rd of a season of Jamison, losing 1/2 season of Moon, losing 10 games of Parker, losing 14 games of Gibson, losing a full season of Delonte West, losing a full season of Shaq and losing a full seaon of Big Z all combined does not matter and that the only thing that mattered was losing LeBron?

I'm not sure where I said that only losing LeBron mattered. Hell that was a debate that I had with Okoda not too long ago about. I'm one of the few people who argued that losing those players DID matter.

But the difference you're describing is unrealistic. None of those guys being around consistently would have made enough of a difference to the point where the Cavaliers go from 17 games won to 40. That's a massive difference that only legitimate all star level talent can change. None of those guys are all star level talent.

What on earth was Shaq, who had trouble staying on the court in 2011, going to do to help Cleveland win additional games? Z was out of the Heat's rotation entirely by the end of the season in favor of Joel Anthony. You think he was going to make a difference in Cleveland? Mo Williams was much worse without LeBron. Antawn Jaminson was past his prime. Jamario Moon? Don't make me laugh.

The only players who missed time that actually would have given Cleveland a decent amount of wins back was Varejao. That's it. And by decent, I mean maybe 3 or 4 more games won.

All in all, that entire cast being back for that season probably wins 25 games. And that's me being generous. 40 is just mind numbingly wrong to think.

Correct, and an MVP and all-time great duo. 2014 Spurs had no one close to MVP level. But yea, keep going on about how the 2014 Spurs were somehow on a different level than the 1997 Jazz just cus LeBron got blown out of the Finals by them.

Please do explain how the hell you of all people know this? Because as we've already established, you didn't watch them play at the time. And quite frankly, I have every reason to believe you didn't watch the 97 Jazz either (and by the way, the 2014 Spurs were much better than the 97 Jazz. There's no argument against it).

Either way, Jordan's Bulls have a pretty decent chance of beating this team at their peak. But then again, it helps when you have a supporting cast as good as the one Jordan had, compared to what LeBron had to work with in 2014.

Even 2011 Shaq with the Celtics was not useless.
But I am talking about losing the 2010 version of those players that won 60+ games with LeBron. I think they could have won 40 games without LeBron if they were as healthy as in 2010.

Supposing over the hill Shaq and Big Z played like in 2010 but Verajao got injured; don’t the 2010 versions of Shaq and big Z play ahead of 2011 Hickson and Ryan Hollins? Hickson did not make a good impression on me. Am I underestimating Hickson?

Lmao no, neither of them did. The fact that you're even asking me this further demonstrates your ignorance in regards to those teams and why you shouldn't be talking about them.

If you didn't watch them at the time, and you aren't willing to put in the effort to actually research those teams, then don't talk about them. You're just making yourself look worse with each post.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I'm not sure where I said that only losing LeBron mattered. Hell that was a debate that I had with Okoda not too long ago about. I'm one of the few people who argued that losing those players DID matter.

But the difference you're describing is unrealistic. None of those guys being around consistently would have made enough of a difference to the point where the Cavaliers go from 17 games won to 40. That's a massive difference that only legitimate all star level talent can change. None of those guys are all star level talent.

What on earth was Shaq, who had trouble staying on the court in 2011, going to do to help Cleveland win additional games? Z was out of the Heat's rotation entirely by the end of the season in favor of Joel Anthony. You think he was going to make a difference in Cleveland? Mo Williams was much worse without LeBron. Antawn Jaminson was past his prime. Jamario Moon? Don't make me laugh.

The only players who missed time that actually would have given Cleveland a decent amount of wins back was Varejao. That's it. And by decent, I mean maybe 3 or 4 more games won.

All in all, that entire cast being back for that season probably wins 25 games. And that's me being generous. 40 is just mind numbingly wrong to think.



Please do explain how the hell you of all people know this? Because as we've already established, you didn't watch them play at the time. And quite frankly, I have every reason to believe you didn't watch the 97 Jazz either (and by the way, the 2014 Spurs were much better than the 97 Jazz. There's no argument against it).

Either way, Jordan's Bulls have a pretty decent chance of beating this team at their peak. But then again, it helps when you have a supporting cast as good as the one Jordan had, compared to what LeBron had to work with in 2014.

Even 2011 Shaq with the Celtics was not useless.
But I am talking about losing the 2010 version of those players that won 60+ games with LeBron. I think they could have won 40 games without LeBron if they were as healthy as in 2010.

Supposing over the hill Shaq and Big Z played like in 2010 but Verajao got injured; don’t the 2010 versions of Shaq and big Z play ahead of 2011 Hickson and Ryan Hollins? Hickson did not make a good impression on me. Am I underestimating Hickson?

Lmao no, neither of them did. The fact that you're even asking me this further demonstrates your ignorance in regards to those teams and why you shouldn't be talking about them.

If you didn't watch them at the time, and you aren't willing to put in the effort to actually research those teams, then don't talk about them. You're just making yourself look worse with each post.

I watched back then but I saw more of 2009 Cavs than 2010 Cavs. In 2010 I don’t think I saw any of the Celtics Cavs series. I remember 2011 Celtics Shaq but don’t have an image of Cavs Shaq. But I liked 2009 Big Z.

I did not like Hickson in 2011 but I probably only saw 2011 in 2 games vs the Warriors. Too small of a sample size. How good was Hickson when he had to play center?

I probabablt watched Samardo Samuels be a minus 25 in 30 minutes vs the Warriors but I have no memory of Samardo Samuels.

[rim213221]

By the 1990 playoffs, Pippen was putting up the same numbers he would put for basically the entirety of his prime, including when he led a 55-win team(58 at full-strength) that elevated in the postseason. They weren't the best defense in the league yet(and Jordan wasn't getting any better there), but in the post-season they had two superstars, were elevated massively by an all-time coach(triangle), and lost to discount Westbrook, Rodman, and some well-fitting role players.

I mean, yea Pippen was a great player, but relative to his era was not better than Wade or Davis, who were generally regarded as top 3-5 players in the league. Jordan definitely was a better defensive player than LeBron and LeBron's teams weren't particularly impressive defensively, especially his horrid Cavs teams whose defense ranked quite terribly, often times near bottom of the league due to his non-elite defensive impact. It wasn't unless he had dominant wing defenders or dominant defensive big men like Wade, Davis, Bosh etc that he had an elite defense in LA and Miami.

Before that, Jordan was taking better more talent than what Lebron had in his first cleveland stint, and winning less. Why? Because all that **** Pippen does? Lebron does it too. And he also has the PPG. And when you add PPG to Scottie Pippen, you get: better at basektball.

Incorrect. LeBron was taking superior talent to anything Jordan had and leading them to vastly inferior success, both in regular season and post-season. From 2011 onwards he's played with far more superstars/stars, all-stars, all-NBA players and has never led a team to an elite post-season run and also has had an epic Finals meltdown in 2011 despite playing with a far, faaaar better team than anything Jordan had. Playing with a top 3 teammate would be like the equivalent of Jordan teaming up with Hakeem or Shaq, which he never did, and despite that destroys LeBron in playoffs / Finals success despite playing far less.

If your argument is that LeBron can take bad teams to better regular season success than Jordan, perhaps that's arguable. But who cares about that? Jordan takes good/average teams to far, far superior regular season and post-season success and vaults them to all-time great GOAT level teams. LeBron was incapable of leading a team to GOAT status due to his inferiority as an overall player.

That's 1991 btw. Would love to see the...uh..."analysis" you got on hand for 2014.

The analysis is simple. Very obvious if you watch the games and remember the series the Spurs regularly sagged off LeBron, daring him to shoot b/c of his broken midrange game that is vastly inferior to Jordan's. Part of the reason Kawhi won FMVP was for his outstanding defense clamping down on LeBron. The 28 ppg on 57%FG shooting is actually evidence of people who didn't watch the series and are going off box score stat-padding.

Actually, after joining a pretty similar team, Hakeem was winning more than Mike. Sadly, his teammates coked out. He found a way to win regardless, against better opponents, with significantly less help.

Actually, he didn't. Hakeem won significantly less than Jordan and the only time he won anything was when Jordan retired. Sadly, it's possible he wouldn't have won a single title if Jordan remained in the league 94 & 95.

The Spurs destroyed the fading two-time champs, after surviving a very, very strong first round opponent, obliterating a very strong second round opponent(good rs and then beat another 55-win team in the first round), and triumphing against one of the most "legendary" opponents you can find. The previous season, the Spurs nearly took out an all-time-great Miami team in 6, after utterly demolishing a solid set of conference opponents. As with any title team, there were injuries to complimentary pieces to help. But that is a constant. Going from 90 to 2022, the only examples I can think of for a champion didn't benefit from an opponent missing a key piece was the 2012 Heat(who barely survived their own injury scares) and the 1994 Rockets who faced a rusty point guard as opposed to an absent one.

All-time great Miami team? The same team that barely squeaked by a terrible Pacers team that was like sub 50-wins? Nothing all-time great about that Miami team and further evidence LeBron is overrated and an inferior basketball player to Jordan. He choked away the Finals in Game 6 with several last minute crucial turnovers and bricks from the 3-point line, only to be bailed out by Kawhi and Manu's missed FT's and clutch rebounding by Bosh, and ultimately one of the greatest bailout 3's in NBA history by Ray Allen. Remember, Kyrie also bailed LeBron out in 2016 as well with the GW 3 as LeBron isn't good enough to create shots the way Jordan was.

Jordan is well known for iconic game winners in the Finals, not costly turnovers and bricks that should've cost his team the title.

The 13/14 Spurs look alot like the Piston team Jordan lost to in 1990, except Lebron actually won, and he did so with less(alot less considering health).

No, they actually do not. LeBron also had a lot more help and he did not win, he got blown off the floor by them.

Again,(whispers) he's better at basketball.

LeBron is inferior at basketball, correct. He may be better at passing, but as an overall basketball player he is inferior. Hence why he has multiple chokes in the FInals, a losing record, less MVP's, less DPOY's, less scoring titles, less titles despite playing with far more talent than Jordan in a weak, weak Eastern Conference where his regular competition was old or green Celtics teams, the Raptors, Hawks, Pacers, etc.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Lol


True, once Jordan had the superteam and once all the 1980s title teams broke down, he made good use of his advantage.


Lol so Wade was a top three player after 2011?

More goes into team-building than star-counting. Never stops being funny how the guy who is the best example of that has this army of automatons constantly trying to argue otherwise.


Jordan had plenty of series where he was much worse than 2014 Finals Lebron, but more often than not, his team was able to pull up the slack.


I think he elevated them to that level, yes. But you are right, he did not score too much, so must just be a fluke how consistently he helped teams be better than the sum of their points per game.


Jordan never won anything without Pippen there. When he had a cast like Hakeem’s, he could not even make it out of the second round, let alone win a title.


Jordan had an eight-time all-NBA teammate, the most successful coach in league history, and a perfect fitting team around him… and still never came close to beating anyone on the level of the 2016 Warriors.



Are you sure it is not the ppg? Because when all you do to support “star power” is cite ppg at me, that tends to give the impression that your idea of team-building is just stack the most scorers together and assume that will win, like a middle-schooler playing 2K for the first time.

Jordan never had a superteam… certainly not to the extent that LeBron did by having multiple #1 scoring options all on the same team.

Wade was a top 3 player when LeBron teamed up with him and quite significantly better than any teammate Jordan had. Despite that LeBron got smoked in the Finals in 2011 and outplayed by both his own teammate and Dirk. Never happened to Jordan unfortunately!

No, Jordan had no series worse than 2007 and 2011 Finals LeBron. Also probably had no Finals worse than 2014 LeBron. 1996 is the only one that’s even close.

Hakeem was great but certainly didnt win anything until Jordan retired. And also led a bunch of teams to missed playoffs appearances and early exits.

You can think a solid role player “elevated” them all you want to, but in general most teams are elevated by their superstar(s). Relative to his era Horace Grant was not considered in the same class among PFs as Kevin Love, Anthony Davis and Chris Bosh. Pretty obvious LeBron played with far more talent yet lost far more.

LeBron played with far more stars (all who were all-NBA caliber before he ever even teamed up with them, unlike Pippen), all-NBA teammates, #1 scoring options, elite double double big men and still failed in the Finals far more than Jordan despite playing way more and in a cupcake easy Eastern Conference where a Finals appearance was a given every year. And despite playing with far more talent he could never lead a team to a top 1-5 all time season like the 96 Bulls or 92 Bulls. Jordan can’t play a team like the 16 Warriors if he is the one leading teams to 72 wins himself, something LeBron was never capable of despite playing with far more talent and in a total
joke of a conference. Low-mid 50 win seasons was all he was capable of.

Jordan never had a super team? Please now I’ve heard it all. I believe Analytics/metrics don’t capture the true extent of Rodman’s outlier rebounding ability.

If I had to guess the Bulls had a large % of extra shots and extra offensive rebounds relative to league average

I don’t know but 96 is pretty much a stacked/super team if to take into account your still getting Jordan, Pippen and an all in Rodman.

Curry was playing injured in the 2016 finals. Iguodala was also plying injured in the 2016 finals and Bogut was injured. I think the mid season 2016 Warriors would have beaten the 2016 finals Cavs in 5 games because Curry Iguodala and Bogut were healthy and playing very well at midseason. Warriors ended their 73 win season by going 9 and 8 their last 17 games. Wariors peaked too soon and were burned out with 17 games remaining in the regular season.

Cavs did not beat the 73 win Warriors, they beat the ghost of the 73 win Warriors.

In game 7 both teams looked like they were trying to lose except for Draymond. LeBron shot 9 for 24 in game 7 but the Warriors shot even worse.

I liked that Suns team the Bulls beat. Pistons and Jazz were not chopped liver. Neither the Bulls nor their opponents could shoot 3s decently by modern standards. I am not sure that any of the LeBron teams could beat the Jazz without either team having the 3 point shot. LeBron surrounded by 3 point shooters was the winning formula.

[Cavsfansince84]

Curry was playing injured in the 2016 finals. Iguodala was also plying injured in the 2016 finals and Bogut was injured. I think the mid season 2016 Warriors would have beaten the 2016 finals Cavs in 5 games because Curry Iguodala and Bogut were healthy and playing very well at midseason. Cavs did not beat the 73 win Warriors, they beat the ghost of the 73 win Warriors.

In game 7 both teams looked like they were trying to lose except Draymond.
I liked that Suns team the Bulls beat. Pistons and Jazz were not chopped liver. Neither the Bulls nor their opponents could shoot 3s decently by modern standards. I am not sure that any of the LeBron teams could beat the Jazz without either team having the 3 point shot. LeBron surrounded by 3 point shooters was the winning formula.

The issue I have with that comment is that the ghost of the 2015 Cavs took the 67 win Warriors to 6 games. So did the Warriors really improve so much in one year that they'd wax a healthy Cavs team even though by srs and Net Rtg they were nearly identical to the previous year? I doubt it. You just always see everything relating to LeBron and his teams through these insanely biased glasses imo. It's also worth noting that hardly any team is fully healthy by the time the finals roll around. Those teams have played 100+ games usually and increased minutes throughout the playoffs. LeBron in 2016 was playing in his 6th straight finals. So its always a battle with attrition by the time teams play each other in the finals. Steph doesn't have the type of body that lends itself to 100 games and still being at 95% health which is part of nba basketball.

[OhayoKD]

By the 1990 playoffs, Pippen was putting up the same numbers he would put for basically the entirety of his prime, including when he led a 55-win team(58 at full-strength) that elevated in the postseason. They weren't the best defense in the league yet(and Jordan wasn't getting any better there), but in the post-season they had two superstars, were elevated massively by an all-time coach(triangle), and lost to discount Westbrook, Rodman, and some well-fitting role players.

I mean, yea Pippen was a great player, but relative to his era was not better than Wade or Davis, who were generally regarded as top 3-5 players in the league.

Wade and Davis were "top 3-5 players" for a whopping 3-years alongside Lebron. Jordan had 8 years next to a guy that led a contender without him(Pip's playoff production mantained from 90-98). As it is, we're comparing teams, not co-stars. 58 wins is 58 wins. And 58-wins + perfect fit for Mike = "better than any team Lebron has ever played on".

From 2011 onwards he's played with far more superstars/stars, all-stars,

Lebron has only ever played with one superstar at a time. He's only ever played with 2-all stars at a time. He played with 0 superstars when he beat a 73-win team, and he played with an injured one when he handled a juggernaut in 13. It's almost like...he's better at basketball

Before that, Jordan was taking better more talent than what Lebron had in his first cleveland stint, and winning less. Why? Because all that **** Pippen does? Lebron does it too. And he also has the PPG. And when you add PPG to Scottie Pippen, you get: better at basektball.

Incorrect.

Nah

Curry was playing injured in the 2016 finals. Iguodala was also plying injured in the 2016 finals and Bogut was injured. I think the mid season 2016 Warriors would have beaten the 2016 finals Cavs in 5 games because Curry Iguodala and Bogut were healthy and playing very well at midseason. Cavs did not beat the 73 win Warriors, they beat the ghost of the 73 win Warriors.

In game 7 both teams looked like they were trying to lose except Draymond.
I liked that Suns team the Bulls beat. Pistons and Jazz were not chopped liver. Neither the Bulls nor their opponents could shoot 3s decently by modern standards. I am not sure that any of the LeBron teams could beat the Jazz without either team having the 3 point shot. LeBron surrounded by 3 point shooters was the winning formula.

The issue I have with that comment is that the ghost of the 2015 Cavs took the 67 win Warriors to 6 games. So did the Warriors really improve so much in one year that they'd wax a healthy Cavs team even though by srs and Net Rtg they were nearly identical to the previous year? I doubt it. You just always see everything relating to LeBron and his teams through these insanely biased glasses imo. It's also worth noting that hardly any team is fully healthy by the time the finals roll around. Those teams have played 100+ games usually and increased minutes throughout the playoffs. LeBron in 2016 was playing in his 6th straight finals. So its always a battle with attrition by the time teams play each other in the finals. Steph doesn't have the type of body that lends itself to 100 games and still being at 95% health which is part of nba basketball.

You're being too nice. Those Warriors, with Curry fresh off his injury, came from 3-1 down against a 65-win(full-strength)-70-win Spurs crushing OKC side. Love was concussed, TT was hurt. Poor depth. Poor defensive support(which is why they were 30ish wins(net-rating) or 20ish wins(WOWY) without Lebron). And the Cavs still won playing 65-70 win-ball during the 16/17 postseasons after Lebron+thompson played 60-win ball(Sanstere) the year before. Jordan couldn't even hit that 2015 mark before the Bulls got loaded. There's a reason folk keep pivoting to slashlines, "theory", and all-star selections. As far as "better at making teams win goes", the answer's pretty clear