Most Overrated Player in the Top 10

[Taj FTW]

Heyo, it's Oha-yo

The fact that he has "barely and scoring titles", yet is the leagues all time leading scorer speaks volumes. LeBron also has the most total points for the regular season and playoffs. So yeah, there's that.

Good points. But also... Lebron's better at basketball:

Micheal got the points per game and leveraged his gravity(and illegal d) to create a bunch. But Pippen ochrestrated the offense, and the defense, and brought the ball up, and created as much as Jordan while physically anchoring the Bulls' defense. And then we get to rodman(turning them into an unrivalled offensive rebounding outlier and offering solid paint-protection), and Grant(maybe the only reason people think Shaq was ever an elite playoff defender). Never mind the depth, and the coaching.

Before that, Jordan was taking more talent than what Lebron had in his first cleveland stint, and winning less. Why? Because all that **** Pippen does? Lebron does it too. And he also has the PPG. And when you add PPG to Scottie Pippen, you get: better at basektball.

As for pushing square pegs in round holes...

Rim:

It’s doubtful Pippen would’ve consistently led that Bulls team anywhere outside of the 94 season and there’s evidence of that in the 95 season when the Bulls were a sub .500 team.

Reality:

The bulls were >.500 before MJ's return and posted a 53-win srs. This happened with Grant leaving, and with Pippen actively pushing management for a trade.

Rim:

Jordan never had a superteam… certainly not to the extent that LeBron did by having multiple #1 scoring options all on the same team.

Reality:

By the 1990 playoffs the triangle(which involved Jordan splitting creation with a more talented passer and becoming a secondary ball-handler) had spiked the average offense Jordan was leading on his own(Lebron was leading better offenses at 21) to the same offensive-rating they would have for 1991.

By the 1990 playoffs, Pippen was putting up the same numbers he would put for basically the entirety of his prime, including when he led a 55-win team(58 at full-strength) that elevated in the postseason. They weren't the best defense in the league yet(and Jordan wasn't getting any better there), but in the post-season they had two superstars, were elevated massively by an all-time coach(triangle), and lost to discount Westbrook, Rodman, and some well-fitting role players.

Rim:

Are you seriously bringing up Horace Grant to support the argument about who played with more stacked teams??? Yea, he sure “elevated” the Magic, not the iconic superstar duo of Shaq/Penny.

Reality:

The iconic superstar duo of Shaq/Penny… who got swept in the first round by Reggie Miller?

Horace Grant was an outstanding tertiary player in that era, yes. He also happened to be the starting power forward for the 15-1 2001 Lakers, coinciding with pretty much the one time a Shaq team managed to do well defensively in the postseason. Not much in the way of ppg, true… but valuable everywhere else.

Rim:

LeBron played poorly in the 2014 Finals yes, more poorly than Jordan did in any of his Finals. Not sure what bringing up random early round series is trying to accomplish, but we’re talking about Finals. His mid range game and outside jumper were very weak and the Spurs exposed that the entire series. The numbers themselves don’t look bad due to stat padding but it wasn’t a good series.

Reality:

Game 3: LeBron scores 4 of his 22 points in the fourth quarter of this game. In the first basket, it was near the beginning of the quarter when the Spurs only held an 11 point lead after LeBron's made basket. That's not stat padding. His second one came in the middle of the quarter when, by that point, the Spurs had a 15 point lead. 6 minutes to go and a 15 point lead. You're going to have to make a VERY strong argument for how this is stat padding, especially since LeBron himself was on the receiving end of a blown 15 point lead in an NBA Finals just four years ago against Dallas. He knows better than anyone that a 15 point lead with 6 minutes still left isn't safe. And... that's it. That's all LeBron scored in that quarter. So for this game, you have no stat padding moments and no end of game scoring. You're 0-1 so far here.

Game 4: LeBron scored 0 points in the fourth quarter of this game. 0. No stat padding to be found here and, clearly, no end of game scoring. You're 0-2.

Game 5: LeBron's first fourth quarter basket makes it a 14 point lead for San Antonio with a little less than 10 minutes left in the quarter. This is not stat padding, a 14 point lead can be overcome with that much time left. James next basket comes at the 7:31 mark of the game, making the score 88-72 in San Antonio's favor. Again, most certainly not stat padding. There is still plenty of time for Miami to make a comeback. After this, LeBron would shortly sit after San Antonio went on another run and would not play for the rest of the game. 0-3, no such stat padding like you described.

Getting back to things that actually happened

Lebron has
• Beat 2 teams better than anyone Jordan vanquished with less help than Jordan had between 1990 and 1998
• Beat a 73-win team with less help than Jordan had between 1990 and 1998
• Led multiple 60-win teams with less help than Jordan has ever played with
• Swept multiple 60-win teams with less help than Jordan has ever played with
• Swept a healthier variant of the 1989 Cavs with less help than Jordan has ever played with

Lebron also
• Dominates Jordan in winning-based data/impact analysis
• Matches Jordan in box-aggregates(leads in playoffs, trails in regular season) despite a systematic defensive bias towards steal-accumulators
• Has a MVP win(2013) more dominant than any of Mike's(1 vote away from unanimous)
• Has 3 of the 4 most dominant MVP wins between the two(2013, 1996, 2009, 2010)
• Has 3 MVP wins more dominant than anything pre-expansion MJ managed
• Won all 4 MVP's in a 5-year span(Jordan won 3 in 6 before winning 2 more against 30+ comp post-prime)
• Has the most MVP votes of anyone ever
• Has more all-nba and 1st team all-nba appearances than anyone else
• Has led all-nba voting more times than anyone else

AND ALSO
• Is better at basketball

Hope that helps

PS: The answer to the thread title is obviously Mikey

You have already posted all of this stuff on here before. I can post a bunch of stuff on here that would support Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem….i can also post a bunch of stuff on here that is negative for James too. Didnt lebron james promise us 7 championships??? Is this coming soon?? Like, in the next decade? Any updates on this…

The fact that this is your main point speaks to how weak your case is. Literally using a quote by a player instead of any statistical analysis. Do better.

[MavsDirk41]

The fact that he has "barely and scoring titles", yet is the leagues all time leading scorer speaks volumes. LeBron also has the most total points for the regular season and playoffs. So yeah, there's that.

Its called longevity

There's a reason LeBron passed Jordan in scoring on less shots... BUT THE LONGEVITY

Go look at Jordans FGA per game when he was winning scoring titles. Jordan averaged 23 shots per game in his career. LeBron has shot 23+ times a game ONE single time in his career. I'm not taking away anything from Jordan as a scorer. One of the greatest scorers of all time, but you give the greatest scorers of all time the most FGA per game and they're going to win scoring titles

Maybe cause Jordan never had the caliber of offensive minded players on his team like James. Pippen averaged 20 points or more for a season 4 times in his career, twice when Jordan was retired. He peaked in 93/94 averaging 22 points a game.

Wade: averaged over 20 points a game 10 times in his career, 3 times as a teammate with James

Irving: averaged over 20 points a game 13 times in his career, 3 times as a teammate with James

Davis: averaged over 20 points a game in his career 10 times, 4 times as a teammate with James

Kevin Love and Chris Bosh were better offensive players than Horace Grant and Toni Kukoc. Maybe James has had more talented offensive teammates than Jordan.

[MavsDirk41]

Heyo, it's Oha-yo

Good points. But also... Lebron's better at basketball:

As for pushing square pegs in round holes...

Rim:

Reality:

Rim:

Reality:

Rim:

Reality:

Rim:
Reality:


Getting back to things that actually happened

Lebron has
• Beat 2 teams better than anyone Jordan vanquished with less help than Jordan had between 1990 and 1998
• Beat a 73-win team with less help than Jordan had between 1990 and 1998
• Led multiple 60-win teams with less help than Jordan has ever played with
• Swept multiple 60-win teams with less help than Jordan has ever played with
• Swept a healthier variant of the 1989 Cavs with less help than Jordan has ever played with

Lebron also
• Dominates Jordan in winning-based data/impact analysis
• Matches Jordan in box-aggregates(leads in playoffs, trails in regular season) despite a systematic defensive bias towards steal-accumulators
• Has a MVP win(2013) more dominant than any of Mike's(1 vote away from unanimous)
• Has 3 of the 4 most dominant MVP wins between the two(2013, 1996, 2009, 2010)
• Has 3 MVP wins more dominant than anything pre-expansion MJ managed
• Won all 4 MVP's in a 5-year span(Jordan won 3 in 6 before winning 2 more against 30+ comp post-prime)
• Has the most MVP votes of anyone ever
• Has more all-nba and 1st team all-nba appearances than anyone else
• Has led all-nba voting more times than anyone else

AND ALSO
• Is better at basketball

Hope that helps

PS: The answer to the thread title is obviously Mikey

You have already posted all of this stuff on here before. I can post a bunch of stuff on here that would support Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem….i can also post a bunch of stuff on here that is negative for James too. Didnt lebron james promise us 7 championships??? Is this coming soon?? Like, in the next decade? Any updates on this…

The fact that this is your main point speaks to how weak your case is. Literally using a quote by a player instead of any statistical analysis. Do better.

Ok sure

[DarkAzcura]

Wilt or Hakeem probably

The fact that Russell is winning this poll probably proves that he is underrated if anything to be honest. The Wilt vs Russell argument is a perfect proof of why most overvalue points scored sometimes.

[UglyBugBall]

I have a hard time believing curry isn't a top 10 player. Not really sure what more he has to do.

Top 10 is about individual award hardware. Curry has two MVP's and two FMVP's. That's not enough to knock someone out of the top 10 when all of them have more in aggregate. Had he won Iggys FMVP it would be a stronger discussion.

[rtiff68]

Wilt or Hakeem probably

The fact that Russell is winning this poll probably proves that he is underrated if anything to be honest. The Wilt vs Russell argument is a perfect proof of why most overvalue points scored sometimes.

I wonder how many people calling Russell overrated are aware of the fact that he also lead the University of San Francisco (yeah, that USF) to back-to-back NCAA championships and was 1st team All American both of those years?

[rtiff68]

I have a hard time believing curry isn't a top 10 player. Not really sure what more he has to do.

Top 10 is about individual award hardware. Curry has two MVP's and two FMVP's. That's not enough to knock someone out of the top 10 when all of them have more in aggregate. Had he won Iggys FMVP it would be a stronger discussion.

Voted upon awards— especially those voted upon by the media— are are the least significant thing to me when assessing a player’s all time ranking. Of the voted upon awards, All Defensive Teams and Finals MVPs are the ones that mean the least to me.

[Blame Rasho]

Should we tell him that all awards are voted upon, maybe he thinks it is done by lottery?

[Kobe187]

Kobe not in the top 10 is ridiculous. More impressive career than Hakeem.

Championships:
Kobe 5, Hakeem 2
All NBA 1st Team:
Kobe 11, Hakeem 6
All NBA 1st Defensive team:
Kobe 9, Hakeem 5

[Kobe187]

1. Jordan
2. James
3. KAJ
4. Wilt
5. Russel
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Shaq

11. H. Olajuwon
12. S. Curry
13. O. Robertson

[rim213221]

LeBron. Heavy media narrative combined with youth who didn’t grow up in previous eras trying to push the GOAT case when it isn’t all that legitimate. Like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. He’s certainly not at worst #2 all time as you can reasonably argue him lower.

Not to mention he’s never had a GOAT total season (regular season + playoffs), never won a DPOY, barely has any scoring titles, had a fairly weak midrange game that was exploited for most of his prime and performed poorly in multiple Finals despite playing with insane amounts of talent constantly trying to stack the deck to win.

The fact that he has "barely and scoring titles", yet is the leagues all time leading scorer speaks volumes. LeBron also has the most total points for the regular season and playoffs. So yeah, there's that.

Right but it's just because of personal preference to play longer, aka longevity. LeBron is not actually considered an elite scorer compared to Jordan, or even someone like Wilt, Kareem, Durant, Kobe etc.

LeBron's inferiority to Jordan as a basketball player goes far beyond his inferiority as a scorer. He's a worse defender, worse FInals performer, worse at elevating good teams to all-time great status (hence the reason he's never anchored an all-time great team despite having all-time great talent), worse in the clutch, worse midrange/post game, etc.

You have to ask yourself if LeBron was truly deserving of GOAT status, which he most certainly is not, why has he never been able to anchor a team that is in the discussion of greatest team of all-time despite playing with obscene amounts of talent and also in one of the weakest conferences in league history (2011-2018 Eastern Conference)? You end up looking at teams like the 96 Bulls, 92 Bulls, 97 Bulls, 01 Lakers, 87 Lakers, 86 Celtics, 71 Bucks, 76 Sixers, whichever version of the 60's Celtics led by Jordan, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell etc and realize all these players had at least one team that's in the conversation for greatest team ever.

Yet for a supposed 'GOAT' who's played with superteams stacking the deck since 2010, none of LeBron's teams were ever that impressive and often times just barely squeaked out a title. It definitely calls into question his overall impact compared to a true GOAT such as Jordan.

Hence why the answer to this question is most certainly LeBron. I will be the first to admit there will be a player surpass Jordan, but I certainly haven't seen him yet since the 90's. LeBron never really came all that close and you could reasonably argue him outside the top 3 more feasibly than arguing him as the GOAT.

[KyRo23]

Its called longevity

There's a reason LeBron passed Jordan in scoring on less shots... BUT THE LONGEVITY

Go look at Jordans FGA per game when he was winning scoring titles. Jordan averaged 23 shots per game in his career. LeBron has shot 23+ times a game ONE single time in his career. I'm not taking away anything from Jordan as a scorer. One of the greatest scorers of all time, but you give the greatest scorers of all time the most FGA per game and they're going to win scoring titles

Maybe cause Jordan never had the caliber of offensive minded players on his team like James. Pippen averaged 20 points or more for a season 4 times in his career, twice when Jordan was retired. He peaked in 93/94 averaging 22 points a game.

Wade: averaged over 20 points a game 10 times in his career, 3 times as a teammate with James

Irving: averaged over 20 points a game 13 times in his career, 3 times as a teammate with James

Davis: averaged over 20 points a game in his career 10 times, 4 times as a teammate with James

Kevin Love and Chris Bosh were better offensive players than Horace Grant and Toni Kukoc. Maybe James has had more talented offensive teammates than Jordan.

And the 1st 7 years of LeBron's career?

You didn't really prove any of my points wrong. You basically told me why Jordan shot more, but we all know he shot more. Shoot more = more scoring. You can throw the scoring titles out there all you want, but LeBron passed Jordan on less shots. Your whole point was LeBron did that because of longevity? That literally doesn't compute.

[MavsDirk41]

There's a reason LeBron passed Jordan in scoring on less shots... BUT THE LONGEVITY

Go look at Jordans FGA per game when he was winning scoring titles. Jordan averaged 23 shots per game in his career. LeBron has shot 23+ times a game ONE single time in his career. I'm not taking away anything from Jordan as a scorer. One of the greatest scorers of all time, but you give the greatest scorers of all time the most FGA per game and they're going to win scoring titles

Maybe cause Jordan never had the caliber of offensive minded players on his team like James. Pippen averaged 20 points or more for a season 4 times in his career, twice when Jordan was retired. He peaked in 93/94 averaging 22 points a game.

Wade: averaged over 20 points a game 10 times in his career, 3 times as a teammate with James

Irving: averaged over 20 points a game 13 times in his career, 3 times as a teammate with James

Davis: averaged over 20 points a game in his career 10 times, 4 times as a teammate with James

Kevin Love and Chris Bosh were better offensive players than Horace Grant and Toni Kukoc. Maybe James has had more talented offensive teammates than Jordan.

And the 1st 7 years of LeBron's career?

You didn't really prove any of my points wrong. You basically told me why Jordan shot more, but we all know he shot more. Shoot more = more scoring. You can throw the scoring titles out there all you want, but LeBron passed Jordan on less shots. Your whole point was LeBron did that because of longevity? That literally doesn't compute.

My entire point was that the most talented offensive players Jordan has ever played with are Orlando Woolridge, Scottie Pippen, and Toni Kukoc. Compare that to Wade, Davis, Bosh, Kyrie, and Love. He had to carry more of an offensive burden and was just more dynamic offensively. Compute what you want man.

[OhayoKD]

Heyo, it's Oha-yo

The fact that he has "barely and scoring titles", yet is the leagues all time leading scorer speaks volumes. LeBron also has the most total points for the regular season and playoffs. So yeah, there's that.

Good points. But also... Lebron's better at basketball:

Micheal got the points per game and leveraged his gravity(and illegal d) to create a bunch. But Pippen ochrestrated the offense, and the defense, and brought the ball up, and created as much as Jordan while physically anchoring the Bulls' defense. And then we get to rodman(turning them into an unrivalled offensive rebounding outlier and offering solid paint-protection), and Grant(maybe the only reason people think Shaq was ever an elite playoff defender). Never mind the depth, and the coaching.

Before that, Jordan was taking more talent than what Lebron had in his first cleveland stint, and winning less. Why? Because all that **** Pippen does? Lebron does it too. And he also has the PPG. And when you add PPG to Scottie Pippen, you get: better at basektball.

As for pushing square pegs in round holes...

Rim:

It’s doubtful Pippen would’ve consistently led that Bulls team anywhere outside of the 94 season and there’s evidence of that in the 95 season when the Bulls were a sub .500 team.

Reality:

The bulls were >.500 before MJ's return and posted a 53-win srs. This happened with Grant leaving, and with Pippen actively pushing management for a trade.

Rim:

Jordan never had a superteam… certainly not to the extent that LeBron did by having multiple #1 scoring options all on the same team.

Reality:

By the 1990 playoffs the triangle(which involved Jordan splitting creation with a more talented passer and becoming a secondary ball-handler) had spiked the average offense Jordan was leading on his own(Lebron was leading better offenses at 21) to the same offensive-rating they would have for 1991.

By the 1990 playoffs, Pippen was putting up the same numbers he would put for basically the entirety of his prime, including when he led a 55-win team(58 at full-strength) that elevated in the postseason. They weren't the best defense in the league yet(and Jordan wasn't getting any better there), but in the post-season they had two superstars, were elevated massively by an all-time coach(triangle), and lost to discount Westbrook, Rodman, and some well-fitting role players.

Rim:

Are you seriously bringing up Horace Grant to support the argument about who played with more stacked teams??? Yea, he sure “elevated” the Magic, not the iconic superstar duo of Shaq/Penny.

Reality:

The iconic superstar duo of Shaq/Penny… who got swept in the first round by Reggie Miller?

Horace Grant was an outstanding tertiary player in that era, yes. He also happened to be the starting power forward for the 15-1 2001 Lakers, coinciding with pretty much the one time a Shaq team managed to do well defensively in the postseason. Not much in the way of ppg, true… but valuable everywhere else.

Rim:

LeBron played poorly in the 2014 Finals yes, more poorly than Jordan did in any of his Finals. Not sure what bringing up random early round series is trying to accomplish, but we’re talking about Finals. His mid range game and outside jumper were very weak and the Spurs exposed that the entire series. The numbers themselves don’t look bad due to stat padding but it wasn’t a good series.

Reality:

Game 3: LeBron scores 4 of his 22 points in the fourth quarter of this game. In the first basket, it was near the beginning of the quarter when the Spurs only held an 11 point lead after LeBron's made basket. That's not stat padding. His second one came in the middle of the quarter when, by that point, the Spurs had a 15 point lead. 6 minutes to go and a 15 point lead. You're going to have to make a VERY strong argument for how this is stat padding, especially since LeBron himself was on the receiving end of a blown 15 point lead in an NBA Finals just four years ago against Dallas. He knows better than anyone that a 15 point lead with 6 minutes still left isn't safe. And... that's it. That's all LeBron scored in that quarter. So for this game, you have no stat padding moments and no end of game scoring. You're 0-1 so far here.

Game 4: LeBron scored 0 points in the fourth quarter of this game. 0. No stat padding to be found here and, clearly, no end of game scoring. You're 0-2.

Game 5: LeBron's first fourth quarter basket makes it a 14 point lead for San Antonio with a little less than 10 minutes left in the quarter. This is not stat padding, a 14 point lead can be overcome with that much time left. James next basket comes at the 7:31 mark of the game, making the score 88-72 in San Antonio's favor. Again, most certainly not stat padding. There is still plenty of time for Miami to make a comeback. After this, LeBron would shortly sit after San Antonio went on another run and would not play for the rest of the game. 0-3, no such stat padding like you described.

Getting back to things that actually happened

Lebron has
• Beat 2 teams better than anyone Jordan vanquished with less help than Jordan had between 1990 and 1998
• Beat a 73-win team with less help than Jordan had between 1990 and 1998
• Led multiple 60-win teams with less help than Jordan has ever played with
• Swept multiple 60-win teams with less help than Jordan has ever played with
• Swept a healthier variant of the 1989 Cavs with less help than Jordan has ever played with

Lebron also
• Dominates Jordan in winning-based data/impact analysis
• Matches Jordan in box-aggregates(leads in playoffs, trails in regular season) despite a systematic defensive bias towards steal-accumulators
• Has a MVP win(2013) more dominant than any of Mike's(1 vote away from unanimous)
• Has 3 of the 4 most dominant MVP wins between the two(2013, 1996, 2009, 2010)
• Has 3 MVP wins more dominant than anything pre-expansion MJ managed
• Won all 4 MVP's in a 5-year span(Jordan won 3 in 6 before winning 2 more against 30+ comp post-prime)
• Has the most MVP votes of anyone ever
• Has more all-nba and 1st team all-nba appearances than anyone else
• Has led all-nba voting more times than anyone else

AND ALSO
• Is better at basketball

Hope that helps

PS: The answer to the thread title is obviously Mikey

I can post a bunch of stuff

Post or don't post. There is no "can". Don't tag me if all you got is a bluff

[OhayoKD]

Should we tell him that all awards are voted upon, maybe he thinks it is done by lottery?

If the award merits consideration, then you should be able to make the case for the award being warranted. Otherwise, it'll lack the weight of a rubberized duck

[Blame Rasho]

Should we tell him that all awards are voted upon, maybe he thinks it is done by lottery?

If the award merits consideration, then you should be able to make the case for the award being warranted. Otherwise, it'll lack the weight of a rubberized duck

[Sark]

For me, the most overrated of the top 10 is Tim Duncan. He has a lower career scoring average than Magic, and has about the same efficiency as Kobe (.551 - .550).

[70sFan]

For me, the most overrated of the top 10 is Tim Duncan. He has a lower career scoring average than Magic, and has about the same efficiency as Kobe (.551 - .550).

Who has Duncan inside top 10 because of his scoring...?

[Sark]

For me, the most overrated of the top 10 is Tim Duncan. He has a lower career scoring average than Magic, and has about the same efficiency as Kobe (.551 - .550).

Who has Duncan inside top 10 because of his scoring...?

Nobody, but that doesn't mean scoring isn't important.

[70sFan]

For me, the most overrated of the top 10 is Tim Duncan. He has a lower career scoring average than Magic, and has about the same efficiency as Kobe (.551 - .550).

Who has Duncan inside top 10 because of his scoring...?

Nobody, but that doesn't mean scoring isn't important.

Well, it doesn't mean it's the most important thing either. Duncan also is a better scorer than Russell (which doesn't make him a better player) and comparable one to Hakeem, so he's not even the weakest one in top 10.