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[toooskies]

I'm not an adamant fire JB fan, but it is telling that a team like the Bucks is firing their coach after one-ish bad season (imo due to GIannis and Middleton injuries).

I realize the Bucks have different aspirations compared to the Cavs, but Bud is most likely better than JB and has a better rep around the league. Makes you ask yourself what the Cavs plans are.

I understand that Koby and the FO seem to be preaching loyalty within their organization (cya K Love) with the hopes that it breeds results on the court (and some development as well). I know the end goal is winning a championship, but what are the goals in between?

What can we call a successful season from here?

I ask myself the same thing, will the franchise call next season a success if they get to the 2nd round or do they just have to be more competitive in the first round for it to be a success? It's a very valid question.

That was and is my whole issue with the Mitchell trade, this season was basically looked at as a moral victory but at the same time Mitchell only has 2 more guaranteed seasons on his deal. If Mitchell extends next summer, I think I'll probably be fine with the trade and some seasons being counted as moral victories.

It is the win now timeline combined with the short window that currently makes it frustrating.

I think with how this season ended, we've stunted our growth. I think the assumed timeline was something like:

Second Round -> Competitive Second Round/Conference Finals Appearance -> Competitive Conference Finals -> Finals Appearance

Obviously, none of the above is guaranteed in the first place, but a non-competitive first round was not in the books.

So do we reshape our expectations or expect this team to get to step 2 before hitting step 1?

It's nice to believe there's a magic formula to winning, but there's not. You simply have to get better, and we found lots of ways that we weren't good.

I think we got lots of valuable feedback from the playoffs on an individual level.
- Allen needs to be able to push back harder on the Mitchell Robinsons of the world. Embiid is the ultra version of that, and he's going to be in our way the next few years.
- Mobley's got work to do on getting his own shot and also needs to get stronger, which may help with his drives.
- Okoro needs to work on getting JBB's confidence in him higher. And maybe more confidence in himself. And maybe become a little bit of a ballhandler so that when he's wide open on the wing and doesn't want to shoot, he has something to do.
- Mitchell let his team down for the second year in a row. He needs to figure out why-- too much pressure? Too dialed in? Giving up too quickly? Rattled playing in NYC?
- Garland needs to find a way to get more shots, particularly when Mitchell's struggling.
- Everyone needs to learn how to play different defenses in the regular season so we aren't learning them in the postseason.
- Rubio and Green need to get closer to their pre-injury levels to contribute.
- We need to re-sign LeVert, he's our best option for spacing in the starting lineup.
- We need a backup big. Preferably one who can shoot and take minutes from JA or Mobley when they have off-nights.
- We need more shooting, generally.
- Wade wasn't ready and wasn't playable.
- We need to commit to guys we're going to play in the playoffs before we get to the playoffs. It may cost us some regular season wins to be competitive in the playoffs, but we need to be okay with that or we're not a contender. We committed to Stevens as backup PF after Love left... and then he didn't even play. We committed to Okoro as starter in the regular season... and then marginalized him.

I'm not sold on Bud being better than JBB, he was fired for all the things that we complain about JBB for-- he's a great regular season coach, but he's failed repeatedly in the playoffs and is slow to make adjustments in the playoffs. He probably doesn't win a title if KD's foot isn't on the line on that 3-pointer, and doesn't come close if various injuries didn't happen to opposing teams. He definitely didn't overachieve.

If we want a guy who can make playoff adjustments, we need to wait for that guy to be available. See if Lue's time in LA is running out, or Monty Williams in Phoenix now that they have new ownership.

[JonFromVA]

I'm not an adamant fire JB fan, but it is telling that a team like the Bucks is firing their coach after one-ish bad season (imo due to GIannis and Middleton injuries).

I realize the Bucks have different aspirations compared to the Cavs, but Bud is most likely better than JB and has a better rep around the league. Makes you ask yourself what the Cavs plans are.

I understand that Koby and the FO seem to be preaching loyalty within their organization (cya K Love) with the hopes that it breeds results on the court (and some development as well). I know the end goal is winning a championship, but what are the goals in between?

What can we call a successful season from here?

I wish the Bucks luck finding a better coach than Bud, but it's an understandable reaction given they have a veteran playoff experienced team, the #1 seed, and got taken out in pretty much the same manner as we did.

Was his biggest mistake not using Giannis (struggling with injuries) .vs. Jimmy? Was that really the fire-able offense? He has a rep for not making the playoff adjustments, but can't say I paid enough attention to the series to see if that was a factor.

I do think when we fire JBB or Koby it should be for a clear upgrade and not just to try our luck with another inexperienced assistant or a guy who's never any success. So, I would be fine if they fired Bickerstaff knowing Budenholzer would take the job, but could he actually do something with this roster as it stands?

Even last year when the Bucks missed Lopez for most of the season, they had Bobby Portis slide in and shoot 39.3% from 3pt. They have not struggled to put volume 3pt shooters around Giannis. Yet still only won 51 games and lost in the 2nd round.

Mobley and Allen needs to be working on setting screens better, getting stronger, and shooting this Summer. And yet, I don't think Brook Lopez even attempted more than 2 3pters in a game until he was 28 and then he shot just 34.5% for a couple of seasons.

So, wait 5 years and we might have a roster we know Bud can manage?

Letting JBB continue to earn that contract we gave him while our players continue to develop is not an insane idea, it just seems that way to people who came away from the Mitchell trade feeling that was an "all in" move rather than a means to get a sure thing in exchange for future draft picks that might not get us very much.

[JonFromVA]

I'm not an adamant fire JB fan, but it is telling that a team like the Bucks is firing their coach after one-ish bad season (imo due to GIannis and Middleton injuries).

I realize the Bucks have different aspirations compared to the Cavs, but Bud is most likely better than JB and has a better rep around the league. Makes you ask yourself what the Cavs plans are.

I understand that Koby and the FO seem to be preaching loyalty within their organization (cya K Love) with the hopes that it breeds results on the court (and some development as well). I know the end goal is winning a championship, but what are the goals in between?

What can we call a successful season from here?

I ask myself the same thing, will the franchise call next season a success if they get to the 2nd round or do they just have to be more competitive in the first round for it to be a success? It's a very valid question.

That was and is my whole issue with the Mitchell trade, this season was basically looked at as a moral victory but at the same time Mitchell only has 2 more guaranteed seasons on his deal. If Mitchell extends next summer, I think I'll probably be fine with the trade and some seasons being counted as moral victories.

It is the win now timeline combined with the short window that currently makes it frustrating.

I think with how this season ended, we've stunted our growth. I think the assumed timeline was something like:

Second Round -> Competitive Second Round/Conference Finals Appearance -> Competitive Conference Finals -> Finals Appearance

Obviously, none of the above is guaranteed in the first place, but a non-competitive first round was not in the books.

So do we reshape our expectations or expect this team to get to step 2 before hitting step 1?

Setting expectations for playoff performance based on regular season record is a mistake.

[JujitsuFlip]

Letting JBB continue to earn that contract we gave him while our players continue to develop is not an insane idea, it just seems that way to people who came away from the Mitchell trade feeling that was an "all in" move rather than a means to get a sure thing in exchange for future draft picks that might not get us very much.

Trading 6 first rounders and an All-Star isn't an all in move? I would hate to see what you classify as an "all-in" move.

[TheLand13]

With some time to reflect post gentlemen's sweep and looking back at everything that was going on before it all happened... I am of the opinion that the Donovan Mitchell was ultimately a mistake.

Before I go on, I do want to acknowledge three things:

1. Donovan Mitchell more than earned the money we paid him and the amount of things we gave up for him... at least in the regular season anyways. Postseason I'll get to in a moment, but it would be wrong to not at least acknowledge the really great regular season he had with us. It's at least a sign of a few things, that this CAN work given the right circumstances and that a deep playoff run can be possible if we can get the PS Donovan Mitchell he's known for being. If we had that here, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion and would be facing Miami in the second right at the moment.

2. Things were different back then compared to now. This is one of those aspects of this trade that can't be ignored and are unfortunate, but they are worth mentioning when discussing whether or not this trade was a good one or not. At the time of the trade, it was expected that Cleveland would still have a pretty well rounded team, and... well, they did. They still had Kevin Love, Rubio was going to be back eventually and they still had other capable bench players. Kevin Love was our ultimate sixth man, and at first, he was having himself another really good season for us. But that quickly started to fade away after the first month and a half of the season... the quality of his play noticeably took a dip and he just wasn't as good. And once the thumb injury happened, he was practically unplayable upon his return to the team. This had a big impact on how well the trade ended up working, as without Kevin's floor spacing and added offense, it became more difficult for our team to have a more balanced style of play and our starters had to take a heavier workload. As I've mentioned multiple times, we were missing Love's spacing and rebounding in the Knicks series, and without it, Mobley and Allen were forced to take on a much heavier workload than they should have.

3. I normally do not play the "but look at them" game. But it is worth pointing out that another team made a very similar trade for a teammate of Mitchell's back in his Utah days. It is at least worth pointing out that despite the flaws of this trade, there has been a lot of good to be found. Cleveland was a top ten offense this year and Mitchell was a big reason for that. There were multiple games (and by that I mean almost ten at the very least) that were won almost entirely by Mitchell himself. We did end up having the fourth seed which is comfortable playoff positioning since it at least gives you homecourt advantage in the first round. It ended up not mattering in the end, but it's worth pointing out considering how it's more than likely that Milwaukee and Philly both get worse next season. Compare this to Minnesota, who do not seem to have benefited at all from the Gobert trade and are in fact worse because of it. We cannot say the same about Cleveland.

With all of that said, it sounds like I'm actually praising the Mitchell trade. I am for the positive aspects that did in fact work. It's not like it's doomed to fail and in fact we can still become title contenders with the big four we have now.

But... in the end, I'm still not satisfied. Compare this to last season where I at least was satisfied going into the offseason despite losing out on both play-in games. There were so many options for us and routes that we could take, and we ended up getting our first round pick back in the end, which allowed us something to build off of.

I have found myself going back to last off season and thinking to myself... yeah, we were better off just staying with what we had. It sucks to say now, but I really see no reason as to why we wouldn't have been better off keeping our group together, and building around it. I don't know if Lauri was ever going to be an all star with Cleveland or not, especially when you consider that JB was more than likely going to prioritize getting Mobley and Allen more looks than him. But that doesn't mean Lauri wouldn't have been useful. The three seven footers lineup was a matchup nightmare for a lot of teams, and I think people have a tendency to forget that. Ochai would have been an extremely valuable draft asset for us as it looked like he had no issues stepping up in Utah when given playing time and it looks like he's going to be the player we ultimately wanted... which is a kick in the nuts for us.

The thing to understand is that we needed a guy who was capable of creating his own offense. We ended up getting that at an elite level... and as I mentioned before, the results spoke for themselves. I will never harp on the draft picks because as I've mentioned before, those aren't going to materialize into anything more than very high draft picks given that we're going to be playoff contenders for the rest of this decade. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we didn't waste them. And I do think we ultimately did by giving up so much of them for Mitchell. Those draft picks definitely could have been used to give us additional role-players who would have been able to fill out the areas we were weak in. With two potential stars in the making in Garland and Mobley, you can make the argument that it was never necessary to go that route in the first place, but in the end, we did.

Now let's wind the clock to now and lets say we're in the exact same situation we're in now but without the Mitchell trade. We would still have more options to work with and better ways to fix the roster through the use of the assets we currently have. Instead, we have very limited options and are running on this hope that we can fill out the cracks we have with the limited options we possess.

However, not all is lost. If Garland was 28 right now and Mobley was 26, my tune on this would be totally different. Instead, they are both incredibly young and will continue to make improvements to their game. They both demonstrated great improvement this year alone, which makes me excited to see what will happen next season. And we've all made the comment by now... Mitchell can be traded next season if/when it becomes clear that he has no intention of remaining with us long term. I'm not saying that will be the case, truth be told we have no idea what will happen. But I will say this: Brooklyn was able to get themselves a pretty decent return for Kyrie Irving of all people. We all saw what Utah got from Minnesota for Gobert, even when everyone said at the time that was a terrible idea. Hell, Philly got James Harden out of Ben Simmons. The point is, there are always going to be teams out there who are willing to fork over assets for a star. It's just the way the league works. It's not like Mitchell is going to regress given that he himself is still pretty young. My hope is that next season Mitchell is going to be the greatest version of him we've ever seen, including in the PS. If that happens... oh man. I can't even begin to imagine what kind of assets teams would be willing to throw our way. And it doesn't even have to be teams that are trying to become contenders. Mitchell being on an expiring contract can also be a very attractive trade piece for teams looking to cut cap space. I do not expect to get five first round draft picks or anything of the sort. I don't think we need that. If we can get the kind of roleplayers we need to balance out our team and take us to the next level... that will ultimately make the Mitchell trade worth it in the end.

[ijspeelman]

I ask myself the same thing, will the franchise call next season a success if they get to the 2nd round or do they just have to be more competitive in the first round for it to be a success? It's a very valid question.

That was and is my whole issue with the Mitchell trade, this season was basically looked at as a moral victory but at the same time Mitchell only has 2 more guaranteed seasons on his deal. If Mitchell extends next summer, I think I'll probably be fine with the trade and some seasons being counted as moral victories.

It is the win now timeline combined with the short window that currently makes it frustrating.

I think with how this season ended, we've stunted our growth. I think the assumed timeline was something like:

Second Round -> Competitive Second Round/Conference Finals Appearance -> Competitive Conference Finals -> Finals Appearance

Obviously, none of the above is guaranteed in the first place, but a non-competitive first round was not in the books.

So do we reshape our expectations or expect this team to get to step 2 before hitting step 1?

Setting expectations for playoff performance based on regular season record is a mistake.

My projections are based on a linear/logarithmic progression for a team of our supposed caliber and youth.

Though, I do think banking on regular season results as a post season indicator is underrated (this season seems to be an outlier).

Since the merger, only one seed lower than 3 seed has one a championship (Houston Rockets/6th seed). So if you aren't a 3rd seed or higher in your conference, you are unlikely to win. This heavily indicates that the top 6ish teams in the regular season are going to be the eventual champions. It actually goes further than that where is you are a top 4 team they collectively have something like a 75% chance of being the champion.

[JonFromVA]

Letting JBB continue to earn that contract we gave him while our players continue to develop is not an insane idea, it just seems that way to people who came away from the Mitchell trade feeling that was an "all in" move rather than a means to get a sure thing in exchange for future draft picks that might not get us very much.

Trading 6 first rounders and an All-Star isn't an all in move? I would hate to see what you classify as an "all-in" move.

"All in moves" are for teams with a very short window to win a championship who want to make a move to try to push them over the top.

Dan Gilbert has always been a gun slinger as a business owner and team owner, and it's perfectly understandable to me that he's not going to worry about all the things that would have to go wrong for those future draft picks and swaps to come back to bite us.

Which isn't to say the Cavs didn't have a window ... we did ... a window while Mobley is still on his rookie deal to add more salary, an even shorter window to do something about Sexton, and the shortest window of all to decide if we wanted to add an All-Star player in his prime to our core without having touch our 3 best players.

There isn't an "all in move" for a team that hasn't even sniffed playoff success short of trading the entire team for players who have it.

[JonFromVA]

I think with how this season ended, we've stunted our growth. I think the assumed timeline was something like:

Second Round -> Competitive Second Round/Conference Finals Appearance -> Competitive Conference Finals -> Finals Appearance

Obviously, none of the above is guaranteed in the first place, but a non-competitive first round was not in the books.

So do we reshape our expectations or expect this team to get to step 2 before hitting step 1?

Setting expectations for playoff performance based on regular season record is a mistake.

My projections are based on a linear/logarithmic progression for a team of our supposed caliber and youth.

Though, I do think banking on regular season results as a post season indicator is underrated (this season seems to be an outlier).

Since the merger, only one seed lower than 3 seed has one a championship (Houston Rockets/6th seed). So if you aren't a 3rd seed or higher in your conference, you are unlikely to win. This heavily indicates that the top 6ish teams in the regular season are going to be the eventual champions. It actually goes further than that where is you are a top 4 team they collectively have something like a 75% chance of being the champion.

a) We had no playoff experience as a team (unless you care to count the play-in games)
b) The 4 seed .vs. 5 seed matchup is a toss-up at best
c) Specific playoff series come down to matchups, adjustments, and healthy.

If you want to try to guess how that might go based on the regular season then the first thing you'd look at is the head to head where they beat us 3-1. You might also look at how the teams are playing going in to the playoffs, and that favored the Knicks too.

So, by all means you can dig deeper and ponder why none of that will matter and how the Cavs might over come, but it's going to include assumptions like our 2 bigs being able to keep Mitchell Robinson off the offensive boards, Randle being slowed by injury, Toppin sucking, and Mitchell+Garland playing better than Brunson+Barrett.

We had a chance to prove we more than just a try-hard regular season team and failed even at trying harder.

[JonFromVA]

With some time to reflect post gentlemen's sweep and looking back at everything that was going on before it all happened... I am of the opinion that the Donovan Mitchell was ultimately a mistake.

Before I go on, I do want to acknowledge three things:

1. Donovan Mitchell more than earned the money we paid him and the amount of things we gave up for him... at least in the regular season anyways. Postseason I'll get to in a moment, but it would be wrong to not at least acknowledge the really great regular season he had with us. It's at least a sign of a few things, that this CAN work given the right circumstances and that a deep playoff run can be possible if we can get the PS Donovan Mitchell he's known for being. If we had that here, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion and would be facing Miami in the second right at the moment.

2. Things were different back then compared to now. This is one of those aspects of this trade that can't be ignored and are unfortunate, but they are worth mentioning when discussing whether or not this trade was a good one or not. At the time of the trade, it was expected that Cleveland would still have a pretty well rounded team, and... well, they did. They still had Kevin Love, Rubio was going to be back eventually and they still had other capable bench players. Kevin Love was our ultimate sixth man, and at first, he was having himself another really good season for us. But that quickly started to fade away after the first month and a half of the season... the quality of his play noticeably took a dip and he just wasn't as good. And once the thumb injury happened, he was practically unplayable upon his return to the team. This had a big impact on how well the trade ended up working, as without Kevin's floor spacing and added offense, it became more difficult for our team to have a more balanced style of play and our starters had to take a heavier workload. As I've mentioned multiple times, we were missing Love's spacing and rebounding in the Knicks series, and without it, Mobley and Allen were forced to take on a much heavier workload than they should have.

3. I normally do not play the "but look at them" game. But it is worth pointing out that another team made a very similar trade for a teammate of Mitchell's back in his Utah days. It is at least worth pointing out that despite the flaws of this trade, there has been a lot of good to be found. Cleveland was a top ten offense this year and Mitchell was a big reason for that. There were multiple games (and by that I mean almost ten at the very least) that were won almost entirely by Mitchell himself. We did end up having the fourth seed which is comfortable playoff positioning since it at least gives you homecourt advantage in the first round. It ended up not mattering in the end, but it's worth pointing out considering how it's more than likely that Milwaukee and Philly both get worse next season. Compare this to Minnesota, who do not seem to have benefited at all from the Gobert trade and are in fact worse because of it. We cannot say the same about Cleveland.

With all of that said, it sounds like I'm actually praising the Mitchell trade. I am for the positive aspects that did in fact work. It's not like it's doomed to fail and in fact we can still become title contenders with the big four we have now.

But... in the end, I'm still not satisfied. Compare this to last season where I at least was satisfied going into the offseason despite losing out on both play-in games. There were so many options for us and routes that we could take, and we ended up getting our first round pick back in the end, which allowed us something to build off of.

I have found myself going back to last off season and thinking to myself... yeah, we were better off just staying with what we had. It sucks to say now, but I really see no reason as to why we wouldn't have been better off keeping our group together, and building around it. I don't know if Lauri was ever going to be an all star with Cleveland or not, especially when you consider that JB was more than likely going to prioritize getting Mobley and Allen more looks than him. But that doesn't mean Lauri wouldn't have been useful. The three seven footers lineup was a matchup nightmare for a lot of teams, and I think people have a tendency to forget that. Ochai would have been an extremely valuable draft asset for us as it looked like he had no issues stepping up in Utah when given playing time and it looks like he's going to be the player we ultimately wanted... which is a kick in the nuts for us.

The thing to understand is that we needed a guy who was capable of creating his own offense. We ended up getting that at an elite level... and as I mentioned before, the results spoke for themselves. I will never harp on the draft picks because as I've mentioned before, those aren't going to materialize into anything more than very high draft picks given that we're going to be playoff contenders for the rest of this decade. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we didn't waste them. And I do think we ultimately did by giving up so much of them for Mitchell. Those draft picks definitely could have been used to give us additional role-players who would have been able to fill out the areas we were weak in. With two potential stars in the making in Garland and Mobley, you can make the argument that it was never necessary to go that route in the first place, but in the end, we did.

Now let's wind the clock to now and lets say we're in the exact same situation we're in now but without the Mitchell trade. We would still have more options to work with and better ways to fix the roster through the use of the assets we currently have. Instead, we have very limited options and are running on this hope that we can fill out the cracks we have with the limited options we possess.

However, not all is lost. If Garland was 28 right now and Mobley was 26, my tune on this would be totally different. Instead, they are both incredibly young and will continue to make improvements to their game. They both demonstrated great improvement this year alone, which makes me excited to see what will happen next season. And we've all made the comment by now... Mitchell can be traded next season if/when it becomes clear that he has no intention of remaining with us long term. I'm not saying that will be the case, truth be told we have no idea what will happen. But I will say this: Brooklyn was able to get themselves a pretty decent return for Kyrie Irving of all people. We all saw what Utah got from Minnesota for Gobert, even when everyone said at the time that was a terrible idea. Hell, Philly got James Harden out of Ben Simmons. The point is, there are always going to be teams out there who are willing to fork over assets for a star. It's just the way the league works. It's not like Mitchell is going to regress given that he himself is still pretty young. My hope is that next season Mitchell is going to be the greatest version of him we've ever seen, including in the PS. If that happens... oh man. I can't even begin to imagine what kind of assets teams would be willing to throw our way. And it doesn't even have to be teams that are trying to become contenders. Mitchell being on an expiring contract can also be a very attractive trade piece for teams looking to cut cap space. I do not expect to get five first round draft picks or anything of the sort. I don't think we need that. If we can get the kind of roleplayers we need to balance out our team and take us to the next level... that will ultimately make the Mitchell trade worth it in the end.

A well thought out post, but if you're going to play the what-if game, you have to consider what happens with Sexton?

Does he eventually get an offer we match? Does the Sexland experiment continue? How does it go?

We know what happened with Rubio, he really wasn't able to contribute this season.

Our season could have easily fallen to pieces if we were relying on Neto as our secondary ball handler.

And then we're still sitting on our assets, but what's our move?

Do we outbid the Knicks for Josh Hart and call it a day? Do we trade for KD or *gasp* Kyrie?

[TheLand13]

With some time to reflect post gentlemen's sweep and looking back at everything that was going on before it all happened... I am of the opinion that the Donovan Mitchell was ultimately a mistake.

Before I go on, I do want to acknowledge three things:

1. Donovan Mitchell more than earned the money we paid him and the amount of things we gave up for him... at least in the regular season anyways. Postseason I'll get to in a moment, but it would be wrong to not at least acknowledge the really great regular season he had with us. It's at least a sign of a few things, that this CAN work given the right circumstances and that a deep playoff run can be possible if we can get the PS Donovan Mitchell he's known for being. If we had that here, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion and would be facing Miami in the second right at the moment.

2. Things were different back then compared to now. This is one of those aspects of this trade that can't be ignored and are unfortunate, but they are worth mentioning when discussing whether or not this trade was a good one or not. At the time of the trade, it was expected that Cleveland would still have a pretty well rounded team, and... well, they did. They still had Kevin Love, Rubio was going to be back eventually and they still had other capable bench players. Kevin Love was our ultimate sixth man, and at first, he was having himself another really good season for us. But that quickly started to fade away after the first month and a half of the season... the quality of his play noticeably took a dip and he just wasn't as good. And once the thumb injury happened, he was practically unplayable upon his return to the team. This had a big impact on how well the trade ended up working, as without Kevin's floor spacing and added offense, it became more difficult for our team to have a more balanced style of play and our starters had to take a heavier workload. As I've mentioned multiple times, we were missing Love's spacing and rebounding in the Knicks series, and without it, Mobley and Allen were forced to take on a much heavier workload than they should have.

3. I normally do not play the "but look at them" game. But it is worth pointing out that another team made a very similar trade for a teammate of Mitchell's back in his Utah days. It is at least worth pointing out that despite the flaws of this trade, there has been a lot of good to be found. Cleveland was a top ten offense this year and Mitchell was a big reason for that. There were multiple games (and by that I mean almost ten at the very least) that were won almost entirely by Mitchell himself. We did end up having the fourth seed which is comfortable playoff positioning since it at least gives you homecourt advantage in the first round. It ended up not mattering in the end, but it's worth pointing out considering how it's more than likely that Milwaukee and Philly both get worse next season. Compare this to Minnesota, who do not seem to have benefited at all from the Gobert trade and are in fact worse because of it. We cannot say the same about Cleveland.

With all of that said, it sounds like I'm actually praising the Mitchell trade. I am for the positive aspects that did in fact work. It's not like it's doomed to fail and in fact we can still become title contenders with the big four we have now.

But... in the end, I'm still not satisfied. Compare this to last season where I at least was satisfied going into the offseason despite losing out on both play-in games. There were so many options for us and routes that we could take, and we ended up getting our first round pick back in the end, which allowed us something to build off of.

I have found myself going back to last off season and thinking to myself... yeah, we were better off just staying with what we had. It sucks to say now, but I really see no reason as to why we wouldn't have been better off keeping our group together, and building around it. I don't know if Lauri was ever going to be an all star with Cleveland or not, especially when you consider that JB was more than likely going to prioritize getting Mobley and Allen more looks than him. But that doesn't mean Lauri wouldn't have been useful. The three seven footers lineup was a matchup nightmare for a lot of teams, and I think people have a tendency to forget that. Ochai would have been an extremely valuable draft asset for us as it looked like he had no issues stepping up in Utah when given playing time and it looks like he's going to be the player we ultimately wanted... which is a kick in the nuts for us.

The thing to understand is that we needed a guy who was capable of creating his own offense. We ended up getting that at an elite level... and as I mentioned before, the results spoke for themselves. I will never harp on the draft picks because as I've mentioned before, those aren't going to materialize into anything more than very high draft picks given that we're going to be playoff contenders for the rest of this decade. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we didn't waste them. And I do think we ultimately did by giving up so much of them for Mitchell. Those draft picks definitely could have been used to give us additional role-players who would have been able to fill out the areas we were weak in. With two potential stars in the making in Garland and Mobley, you can make the argument that it was never necessary to go that route in the first place, but in the end, we did.

Now let's wind the clock to now and lets say we're in the exact same situation we're in now but without the Mitchell trade. We would still have more options to work with and better ways to fix the roster through the use of the assets we currently have. Instead, we have very limited options and are running on this hope that we can fill out the cracks we have with the limited options we possess.

However, not all is lost. If Garland was 28 right now and Mobley was 26, my tune on this would be totally different. Instead, they are both incredibly young and will continue to make improvements to their game. They both demonstrated great improvement this year alone, which makes me excited to see what will happen next season. And we've all made the comment by now... Mitchell can be traded next season if/when it becomes clear that he has no intention of remaining with us long term. I'm not saying that will be the case, truth be told we have no idea what will happen. But I will say this: Brooklyn was able to get themselves a pretty decent return for Kyrie Irving of all people. We all saw what Utah got from Minnesota for Gobert, even when everyone said at the time that was a terrible idea. Hell, Philly got James Harden out of Ben Simmons. The point is, there are always going to be teams out there who are willing to fork over assets for a star. It's just the way the league works. It's not like Mitchell is going to regress given that he himself is still pretty young. My hope is that next season Mitchell is going to be the greatest version of him we've ever seen, including in the PS. If that happens... oh man. I can't even begin to imagine what kind of assets teams would be willing to throw our way. And it doesn't even have to be teams that are trying to become contenders. Mitchell being on an expiring contract can also be a very attractive trade piece for teams looking to cut cap space. I do not expect to get five first round draft picks or anything of the sort. I don't think we need that. If we can get the kind of roleplayers we need to balance out our team and take us to the next level... that will ultimately make the Mitchell trade worth it in the end.

A well thought out post, but if you're going to play the what-if game, you have to consider what happens with Sexton?

Does he eventually get an offer we match? Does the Sexland experiment continue? How does it go?

We know what happened with Rubio, he really wasn't able to contribute this season.

Our season could have easily fallen to pieces if we were relying on Neto as our secondary ball handler.

And then we're still sitting on our assets, but what's our move?

Do we outbid the Knicks for Josh Hart and call it a day? Do we trade for KD or *gasp* Kyrie?

I never put much thought into Sexton because I'm convinced at this point that he wasn't going to be a Cavalier when the season started. Him being included in that trade is still a major positive of that trade because no matter what, he wasn't going to work out for us.

But with that said, I'll answer the question the best I can.

Like I said, Sexton more than likely isn't a Cavalier by the time the season starts. How he ends up in that situation we don't know. I think the most likely scenario that would have occurred is that we ultimately do end up trading him away. I don't have a good answer on where he would end up as I would have to go back and look at how things were looking before the the season started. I imagine we could have gotten a somewhat decent piece in return if we did do the sign and trade route and he is the one we end up giving away. In any aspect, I see Cleveland as being the ultimate beneficiaries of whatever outcome involves Sexton leaving. I was never a fan of the Sexton/Garland pairing, and it's pretty hilarious to see how much better Garland/Mitchell worked out in retrospect considering how we had threads at the time suggesting that Mitchell and Sexton were the same player from both a style and talent perspective, and now we can see that is not only not the case, but the gap between them is far greater than we could have imagined.

Now if Cavaliers did the unthinkable and actually gave him the contract he thought he was worth or he settled for less and stayed? That's a different story. Everyone knows by now that I'm not a Sexton fan but he would have had some value as one of our bench players. The instant offense he brings cannot be ignored and hell, we could have used some of that in a series like this. Sexton doesn't show any fear no matter who he's playing against, and I'm willing to bet that the bright lights of the playoffs would not have phased him in the slightest. He wouldn't have been the difference between us winning and losing, but we would have been more competitive at least on the scoring front.

That's where the positives end because unfortunately, he has negatives that far outweigh the good things he does bring to the table. His style of play doesn't fit his body type. I just said before that he provides instant offense but he is a very flawed player in that regard. He prefers to attack rather than shoot, and while he can hit from outside, it's not his go to. And he can't shoot consistently from there at a high rate. That type of playstyle wouldn't benefit us in the grand scheme of things, even if he can get points. He's a SG in a PG's body, and unlike Mitchell who can generate offense at an elite level, Sexton can't. People say Garland and Mitchell aren't suited to play together, but that pairing is miles ahead of what Sexton/Garland was. Sexton has no clue how to run an offense and has little to no PG instincts. That lack of ability to get others involved is one of the reasons why we struggled for such a long time to begin with before we got Mobley, and is something that frequently frustrated his teammates, most notably Kevin Love who once called him out for it.

But I think the biggest disadvantage at the end of the day is his defense. Mitchell may be 6'1 too, but his wingspan and hustle saves him in that regard and at least makes him serviceable. Sexton wasn't just a liability on defense, he almost never put any effort into that side of the floor. We can't have that.

[JujitsuFlip]

Letting JBB continue to earn that contract we gave him while our players continue to develop is not an insane idea, it just seems that way to people who came away from the Mitchell trade feeling that was an "all in" move rather than a means to get a sure thing in exchange for future draft picks that might not get us very much.

Trading 6 first rounders and an All-Star isn't an all in move? I would hate to see what you classify as an "all-in" move.

"All in moves" are for teams with a very short window to win a championship who want to make a move to try to push them over the top.

Dan Gilbert has always been a gun slinger as a business owner and team owner, and it's perfectly understandable to me that he's not going to worry about all the things that would have to go wrong for those future draft picks and swaps to come back to bite us.

Which isn't to say the Cavs didn't have a window ... we did ... a window while Mobley is still on his rookie deal to add more salary, an even shorter window to do something about Sexton, and the shortest window of all to decide if we wanted to add an All-Star player in his prime to our core without having touch our 3 best players.

There isn't an "all in move" for a team that hasn't even sniffed playoff success short of trading the entire team for players who have it.

This team does have a short window, if they don't want to lose Mitchell for nothing... Next summer Mitchell has to extend or Cavs 1) have to trade him 2) risk him walking for nothing summer of 2025.

I really couldn't think of a tighter window, given 6 first rounders and an All-Star were given up for him.

[JonFromVA]

I'm going to cut off the quoting at this point because it's getting real long, and just continue the discussion about Sexton.

Which is to say, my point wasn't really to ponder whether Collin could have saved our season or whatever we might have gotten for him in a S&T would have; just more that we we're hitting a major decision point with him that was resolved nicely by the Mitchell trade.

We really did need that secondary playmaker especially with Rubio recovering and it's not clear what if anything we could have done about it. Now maybe JBB has an epiphany and moves Lauri out of the corner or maybe even Evan up to the high post and we let Darius dump the ball to them when he's trapped?

But unless they had a fairly immediate drive or pass, they're still not guys we'd want to run offense through. They'd likely need to find Garland and reset the play. When Garland sat, we'd have Neto struggling and having to use Cedi or maybe Kevin as that secondary playmaker/hub.

It just seems like a problem that might had never gotten resolved.

I like Agbaji and all, but he's a year older than Isaac and didn't do much of anything better than him - certainly didn't create any more offense. As expected, he did shoot 3's in higher volume than Isaac; but inspite of that still ended up with a significantly lower TS%. He could easily still improve, but so can Isaac.

The problem is nobody has a crystal ball about this stuff. At the time of the trade, we didn't know Lauri would break out, and we sure didn't know if we'd ever have another opportunity like this. There are teams with more picks and assets than the Cavs and Knicks, and they didn't get in the bidding this time. Mitchell may have been too expensive for Dallas, or maybe they just weren't as desperate as they would get at the deadline. The Lakers certainly couldn't compete with their 2 picks and Westbrook. The Suns could have made a nice offer like they did for KD, but they didn't need a SG. The Heat were probably a little light on picks and Duncan Robinson was considered a negative asset at the time.

[JonFromVA]

Trading 6 first rounders and an All-Star isn't an all in move? I would hate to see what you classify as an "all-in" move.

"All in moves" are for teams with a very short window to win a championship who want to make a move to try to push them over the top.

Dan Gilbert has always been a gun slinger as a business owner and team owner, and it's perfectly understandable to me that he's not going to worry about all the things that would have to go wrong for those future draft picks and swaps to come back to bite us.

Which isn't to say the Cavs didn't have a window ... we did ... a window while Mobley is still on his rookie deal to add more salary, an even shorter window to do something about Sexton, and the shortest window of all to decide if we wanted to add an All-Star player in his prime to our core without having touch our 3 best players.

There isn't an "all in move" for a team that hasn't even sniffed playoff success short of trading the entire team for players who have it.

This team does have a short window, if they don't want to lose Mitchell for nothing... Next summer Mitchell has to extend or Cavs 1) have to trade him 2) risk him walking for nothing summer of 2025.

I really couldn't think of a tighter window, given 6 first rounders and an All-Star were given up for him.

The Cavs window is aligned with our entire core, not a single member of it. Not to mention, but Mitchell is under contract just as long as Markkanen and Sexton's window was in the process of closing on us at the time of the trade.

[JujitsuFlip]

"All in moves" are for teams with a very short window to win a championship who want to make a move to try to push them over the top.

Dan Gilbert has always been a gun slinger as a business owner and team owner, and it's perfectly understandable to me that he's not going to worry about all the things that would have to go wrong for those future draft picks and swaps to come back to bite us.

Which isn't to say the Cavs didn't have a window ... we did ... a window while Mobley is still on his rookie deal to add more salary, an even shorter window to do something about Sexton, and the shortest window of all to decide if we wanted to add an All-Star player in his prime to our core without having touch our 3 best players.

There isn't an "all in move" for a team that hasn't even sniffed playoff success short of trading the entire team for players who have it.

This team does have a short window, if they don't want to lose Mitchell for nothing... Next summer Mitchell has to extend or Cavs 1) have to trade him 2) risk him walking for nothing summer of 2025.

I really couldn't think of a tighter window, given 6 first rounders and an All-Star were given up for him.

The Cavs window is aligned with our entire core, not a single member of it. Not to mention, but Mitchell is under contract just as long as Markkanen and Sexton's window was in the process of closing on us at the time of the trade.

The window becomes progressively smaller if Mitchell and Allen walk for nothing, given the fact the Cavs owe their 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028, and 2029 first round picks to the Jazz.

Furthermore, even if they do trade Allen and Mitchell for pieces that actually fit Garland and Mobley better, I doubt they ever get fair value for either guy.

[TheLand13]

This team does have a short window, if they don't want to lose Mitchell for nothing... Next summer Mitchell has to extend or Cavs 1) have to trade him 2) risk him walking for nothing summer of 2025.

I really couldn't think of a tighter window, given 6 first rounders and an All-Star were given up for him.

The Cavs window is aligned with our entire core, not a single member of it. Not to mention, but Mitchell is under contract just as long as Markkanen and Sexton's window was in the process of closing on us at the time of the trade.

The window becomes progressively smaller if Mitchell and Allen walk for nothing, given the fact the Cavs owe their 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028, and 2029 first round picks to the Jazz.

Furthermore, even if they do trade Allen and Mitchell for pieces that actually fit Garland and Mobley better, I doubt they ever get fair value for either guy.

Allen loves Cleveland. I see no reason as to why he would walk after his deal expires. I see him resigning with the team in the first chance he gets.

Mitchell on the other hand I could see walking. But if he does, while I do agree we probably won't get back fair value for him, it should be enough to still at least help the team continue to be a top 10 offense even without him. I'm still of the opinion that two good three and D players at SG and SF is all we really need to be set up for success.

[JonFromVA]

This team does have a short window, if they don't want to lose Mitchell for nothing... Next summer Mitchell has to extend or Cavs 1) have to trade him 2) risk him walking for nothing summer of 2025.

I really couldn't think of a tighter window, given 6 first rounders and an All-Star were given up for him.

The Cavs window is aligned with our entire core, not a single member of it. Not to mention, but Mitchell is under contract just as long as Markkanen and Sexton's window was in the process of closing on us at the time of the trade.

The window becomes progressively smaller if Mitchell and Allen walk for nothing, given the fact the Cavs owe their 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028, and 2029 first round picks to the Jazz.

Furthermore, even if they do trade Allen and Mitchell for pieces that actually fit Garland and Mobley better, I doubt they ever get fair value for either guy.

There's a whole lot of possible outcomes - that's the fun of being a GM. For instance, there's an alternate reality where we don't trade for Mitchell, we don't trade for Caris and we're just good enough that those picks never amount to anything and/or we have to dump or draft & stash some of them to save a roster spot.

We still have our first round pick in 2024, we still have first round swaps in 2026 and 2028, we have 2nd round picks, and for now we still have Caris, Mitchell, and the rest of the core we've assembled. The plan is to build around them, not to trade them.

Can things go horribly wrong? Sure. Things can always go horribly wrong, I just don't find it enjoyable spending my time dwelling on those things like that when they are 100% out of my control.

[JujitsuFlip]

The Cavs window is aligned with our entire core, not a single member of it. Not to mention, but Mitchell is under contract just as long as Markkanen and Sexton's window was in the process of closing on us at the time of the trade.

The window becomes progressively smaller if Mitchell and Allen walk for nothing, given the fact the Cavs owe their 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028, and 2029 first round picks to the Jazz.

Furthermore, even if they do trade Allen and Mitchell for pieces that actually fit Garland and Mobley better, I doubt they ever get fair value for either guy.

Allen loves Cleveland. I see no reason as to why he would walk after his deal expires. I see him resigning with the team in the first chance he gets.

Mitchell on the other hand I could see walking. But if he does, while I do agree we probably won't get back fair value for him, it should be enough to still at least help the team continue to be a top 10 offense even without him. I'm still of the opinion that two good three and D players at SG and SF is all we really need to be set up for success.

If Allen doesn't extend first chance he gets, Cavs have to trade him.

I mean, it really depends because the Spurs didn't get much of anything for Kawhi and in my estimation he is far superior to Mitchell. The best thing possible is Mitchell extends next summer, if he doesn't, Cavs are gonna be in a bad spot.

[JujitsuFlip]

The Cavs window is aligned with our entire core, not a single member of it. Not to mention, but Mitchell is under contract just as long as Markkanen and Sexton's window was in the process of closing on us at the time of the trade.

The window becomes progressively smaller if Mitchell and Allen walk for nothing, given the fact the Cavs owe their 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028, and 2029 first round picks to the Jazz.

Furthermore, even if they do trade Allen and Mitchell for pieces that actually fit Garland and Mobley better, I doubt they ever get fair value for either guy.

There's a whole lot of possible outcomes - that's the fun of being a GM. For instance, there's an alternate reality where we don't trade for Mitchell, we don't trade for Caris and we're just good enough that those picks never amount to anything and/or we have to dump or draft & stash some of them to save a roster spot.

We still have our first round pick in 2024, we still have first round swaps in 2026 and 2028, we have 2nd round picks, and for now we still have Caris, Mitchell, and the rest of the core we've assembled. The plan is to build around them, not to trade them.

Can things go horribly wrong? Sure. Things can always go horribly wrong, I just don't find it enjoyable spending my time dwelling on those things like that when they are 100% out of my control.

There's also the alternate reality where they trade those picks to fill out the roster with pieces that make sense.

[TheLand13]

The window becomes progressively smaller if Mitchell and Allen walk for nothing, given the fact the Cavs owe their 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028, and 2029 first round picks to the Jazz.

Furthermore, even if they do trade Allen and Mitchell for pieces that actually fit Garland and Mobley better, I doubt they ever get fair value for either guy.

Allen loves Cleveland. I see no reason as to why he would walk after his deal expires. I see him resigning with the team in the first chance he gets.

Mitchell on the other hand I could see walking. But if he does, while I do agree we probably won't get back fair value for him, it should be enough to still at least help the team continue to be a top 10 offense even without him. I'm still of the opinion that two good three and D players at SG and SF is all we really need to be set up for success.

If Allen doesn't extend first chance he gets, Cavs have to trade him.

I mean, it really depends because the Spurs didn't get much of anything for Kawhi and in my estimation he is far superior to Mitchell. The best thing possible is Mitchell extends next summer, if he doesn't, Cavs are gonna be in a bad spot.

Well yeah of course we trade Allen if it becomes clear that he's not going to stay. I'm just saying that I doubt that happens. As I've said before, Allen has enjoyed being in Cleveland and hasn't really shown any signs of wanting to leave.

Can we really say that the Kawhi situation is comparable? I mean Kawhi was out for an entire year before the trade happened and even then, they still at least got DeRozan in the deal. Considering the age of our talent, I wouldn't have any issues getting a caliber of that player on our team just as long as he stays with a team and has a playstyle that is more team friendly.

[JonFromVA]

The Cavs window is aligned with our entire core, not a single member of it. Not to mention, but Mitchell is under contract just as long as Markkanen and Sexton's window was in the process of closing on us at the time of the trade.

The window becomes progressively smaller if Mitchell and Allen walk for nothing, given the fact the Cavs owe their 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028, and 2029 first round picks to the Jazz.

Furthermore, even if they do trade Allen and Mitchell for pieces that actually fit Garland and Mobley better, I doubt they ever get fair value for either guy.

Allen loves Cleveland. I see no reason as to why he would walk after his deal expires. I see him resigning with the team in the first chance he gets.

Mitchell on the other hand I could see walking. But if he does, while I do agree we probably won't get back fair value for him, it should be enough to still at least help the team continue to be a top 10 offense even without him. I'm still of the opinion that two good three and D players at SG and SF is all we really need to be set up for success.

Unless Mobley becomes someone we can trust to dribble the ball and make timely passes, we still need at least one secondary ball handler in the starting lineup and a backup PG. Mitchell covers both of those needs.

Anyway, if Mitchell won't extend, there's a couple of major possibilities worth examining:

1) He's made it known he wants to go to the Knicks, the Knicks want him, and nobody else wants to trade for him as a one year rental. In that case we can start thinking about what pieces we want from the Knicks, but presumably the Knicks would rather not repeat the mistake they made when trading for Melo and if they see a way to open the cap space to sign Mitchell, they won't want to give too much up. Alas, there's a lot of pressure in NYC to make the big deal and not wait which would play to our favor.

2) He hasn't made any demands, and we would likely look for an opportunity to swap him for a star on another team looking to move on, or maybe a young promising player on a team ready to accelerate their plans.

So, I'm not thinking of trading him for loose-parts like Cam Thomas, Royce O'Neale, and Dorian Finney-Smith; I'd be trying to make a bigger play like swapping him for Luka, Giannis, Zion, Jaylen Brown, Mikal Bridges, etc, if/when someone from that tier becomes available for whatever reason. A top-5 lottery pick and some role players could also be interesting in the right draft and would make some sense in terms of what we gave up for Mitchell (condense all those likely late picks in to a sure fire top pick). If we just wanted back a pile of future picks to replace the ones we sent to Utah, there are teams with way too many of them.