2023 Draft Discussion Part 4

[WuTang_CMB]

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[Lord_Zedd]

This isnt the year to dodge the combine.

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Something tells me that the twins are going to drop, especially the inferior Ausar twin. If you can't score in an offensive inflated league, that needs to ring some alarm bells. Just getting some Evan Turner vibes from him.

And lol at Bates skipping workouts.

I remember Scottie Barnes went all out on the draft combine workouts, and that helped raise his stock. Have a feeling Hendricks is going to be that guy this year, stealing it from the Thompson twins.

[OakleyDokely]

Per 40 Blocks+Steals of the current all-defensive team players in their draft year:

JJJ: 6.6
Mobley: 4.3
OG: 4.2
Lopez: 3.5
Caruso: 3.4
White: 3.3
Jrue: 3.1
Bam: 2.9
Draymond: 2.9
Brooks: 2.4

Blocks+Steals per 40:

D Lively: 5.7
T Jackson-Davis: 4.3
J Walker: 3.3
T Hendricks: 3.1
A Black: 3.1
C Wallace: 3.0
Z Edey: 3.0
C Whitmore: 2.6
B Podziemski: 2.5
K Murray: 2.5
K Bufkin: 2.3
M Sasser: 2.3
C Jones: 2.2
B Miller: 2.2
T Smith: 2.2
G Dick: 2.1
M Lewis: 2.1
D Whitehead: 1.9
GG Jackson: 1.9
K George: 1.9
J Hawkins: 1.7
J Strawther: 1.7
J Wilson: 1.6
N Smith: 1.5
B Sensabaugh: 1.5
J Hood-Schifino: 1.3
J Howard: 1.3

[Yallbecrazy]

Per 40 Blocks+Steals of the current all-defensive team players in their draft year:

JJJ: 6.6
Mobley: 4.3
OG: 4.2
Lopez: 3.5
Caruso: 3.4
White: 3.3
Jrue: 3.1
Bam: 2.9
Draymond: 2.9
Brooks: 2.4

Blocks+Steals per 40:

D Lively: 5.7
T Jackson-Davis: 4.3
J Walker: 3.3
T Hendricks: 3.1
A Black: 3.1
C Wallace: 3.0
Z Edey: 3.0
C Whitmore: 2.6
B Podziemski: 2.5
K Murray: 2.5
K Bufkin: 2.3
M Sasser: 2.3
C Jones: 2.2
B Miller: 2.2
T Smith: 2.2
G Dick: 2.1
M Lewis: 2.1
D Whitehead: 1.9
GG Jackson: 1.9
K George: 1.9
J Hawkins: 1.7
J Strawther: 1.7
J Wilson: 1.6
N Smith: 1.5
B Sensabaugh: 1.5
J Hood-Schifino: 1.3
J Howard: 1.3

Adding Centres/ rim protectors is a bit unfair due to inflated blocks. JJJ is/was a hybrid wing/big.

Walker Kessler had 8.8 stocks per 40 in the SEC, including an astounding 1.7 steals for a Centre... and was drafted 22nd for some reason instead of top 5... I guess because he's white.

[OakleyDokely]

Per 40 Blocks+Steals of the current all-defensive team players in their draft year:

JJJ: 6.6
Mobley: 4.3
OG: 4.2
Lopez: 3.5
Caruso: 3.4
White: 3.3
Jrue: 3.1
Bam: 2.9
Draymond: 2.9
Brooks: 2.4

Blocks+Steals per 40:

D Lively: 5.7
T Jackson-Davis: 4.3
J Walker: 3.3
T Hendricks: 3.1
A Black: 3.1
C Wallace: 3.0
Z Edey: 3.0
C Whitmore: 2.6
B Podziemski: 2.5
K Murray: 2.5
K Bufkin: 2.3
M Sasser: 2.3
C Jones: 2.2
B Miller: 2.2
T Smith: 2.2
G Dick: 2.1
M Lewis: 2.1
D Whitehead: 1.9
GG Jackson: 1.9
K George: 1.9
J Hawkins: 1.7
J Strawther: 1.7
J Wilson: 1.6
N Smith: 1.5
B Sensabaugh: 1.5
J Hood-Schifino: 1.3
J Howard: 1.3

Adding Centres/ rim protectors is a bit unfair due to inflated blocks. JJJ is/was a hybrid wing/big.

Walker Kessler had 8.8 stocks per 40 in the SEC, including an astounding 1.7 steals for a Centre... and was drafted 22nd for some reason instead of top 5... I guess because he's white.

With Kessler, I think there were questions surrounding his mobility and what kind of impact he could make offensively since he wasn't a shooter. Plus, purely drop bigs who can't stretch the floor rarely go high in drafts nowadays. If this was 15 years ago, Lively would be talked about as a possible top 5 pick.

OG's 4.2 stocks is wild for a wing player. That really stuck out for me.

[Morse Code]

You're using 2 extreme examples. Booker was a 6th man in college and 3 other players from his own college team were selected ahead of him in the draft.

If your strategy is to draft a 2 time MVP in the second round, all power to you but it's doesn't seem exactly repeatable.

What about the tons of other teams that draft no bodies with picks in the teens? Even a well run team like the Celtics failed to draft meaningful rotation players with their later picks.

Real world examples suggest that top tier stars are typically acquired via trade / free agency like KD and Lebron. These guys got tired of waiting around for their teams to build a winner and just left. Then you have guys like Giannis, Kawhi, Curry who were drafted a little later in the draft into organizations that weren't tire fires.

This idea that you get top picks and then win titles literally never happens.

Its not about getting top picks and winning titles man....Its about getting that one player to build around....Guys like Wemby/Scoot for example....Or if you find a draft class that has a few guys that may look like franchise players....Or maybe you get lucky where a guy falls to you at 7 like GSW did....

Its not about just getting high picks year after year its about trying to find high level talent to build around....Guys like Barnes...With lower picks its much harder to find a franchise player....You need higher picks just to increase the odds of getting that player...

Raptors atm just need a player to build around...As good as Barnes is i do not think hes a franchise player though...So we have to keep searching....I don't think a trade/free agent will ever do this so that is why anyone who wants to play the draft for a bit wants to do that because it just makes the most logical sense...Since we are not a desired destination

I couldn't agree more and I think anyone who disagrees with this is just sticking their head in the sand.

The only other realistic option is trading all star calibre players that aren't superstars (like Pascal) for young guys that have already been drafted, who we deem to have superstar potential, but aren't valued that highly or developed yet by their current teams. Maybe for example Shaedon Sharpe, or Ben Mathurin, or AJ Griffin's son from Atlanta. Just examples, and rarely are guys with superstar potential buried on the bench for their teams, but it's a possibility. Probably higher chance of hitting with one move like that, than trading for a Kawhi again, or drafting a superstar outside the lottery. Free agency I think we all know is the worst option.

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[Jadoogar]

Per 40 Blocks+Steals of the current all-defensive team players in their draft year:

JJJ: 6.6
Mobley: 4.3
OG: 4.2
Lopez: 3.5
Caruso: 3.4
White: 3.3
Jrue: 3.1
Bam: 2.9
Draymond: 2.9
Brooks: 2.4

Blocks+Steals per 40:

D Lively: 5.7
T Jackson-Davis: 4.3
J Walker: 3.3
T Hendricks: 3.1
A Black: 3.1
C Wallace: 3.0
Z Edey: 3.0
C Whitmore: 2.6
B Podziemski: 2.5
K Murray: 2.5
K Bufkin: 2.3
M Sasser: 2.3
C Jones: 2.2
B Miller: 2.2
T Smith: 2.2
G Dick: 2.1
M Lewis: 2.1
D Whitehead: 1.9
GG Jackson: 1.9
K George: 1.9
J Hawkins: 1.7
J Strawther: 1.7
J Wilson: 1.6
N Smith: 1.5
B Sensabaugh: 1.5
J Hood-Schifino: 1.3
J Howard: 1.3

Adding Centres/ rim protectors is a bit unfair due to inflated blocks. JJJ is/was a hybrid wing/big.

Walker Kessler had 8.8 stocks per 40 in the SEC, including an astounding 1.7 steals for a Centre... and was drafted 22nd for some reason instead of top 5... I guess because he's white.

I think teams let the most recent playoffs impact their thinking too much. We had just seen Utah flame out with Rudy Gobert so teams might have been vary of taking a defensive center so high.

[Yallbecrazy]

Per 40 Blocks+Steals of the current all-defensive team players in their draft year:

JJJ: 6.6
Mobley: 4.3
OG: 4.2
Lopez: 3.5
Caruso: 3.4
White: 3.3
Jrue: 3.1
Bam: 2.9
Draymond: 2.9
Brooks: 2.4

Blocks+Steals per 40:

D Lively: 5.7
T Jackson-Davis: 4.3
J Walker: 3.3
T Hendricks: 3.1
A Black: 3.1
C Wallace: 3.0
Z Edey: 3.0
C Whitmore: 2.6
B Podziemski: 2.5
K Murray: 2.5
K Bufkin: 2.3
M Sasser: 2.3
C Jones: 2.2
B Miller: 2.2
T Smith: 2.2
G Dick: 2.1
M Lewis: 2.1
D Whitehead: 1.9
GG Jackson: 1.9
K George: 1.9
J Hawkins: 1.7
J Strawther: 1.7
J Wilson: 1.6
N Smith: 1.5
B Sensabaugh: 1.5
J Hood-Schifino: 1.3
J Howard: 1.3

Adding Centres/ rim protectors is a bit unfair due to inflated blocks. JJJ is/was a hybrid wing/big.

Walker Kessler had 8.8 stocks per 40 in the SEC, including an astounding 1.7 steals for a Centre... and was drafted 22nd for some reason instead of top 5... I guess because he's white.

With Kessler, I think there were questions surrounding his mobility and what kind of impact he could make offensively since he wasn't a shooter. Plus, purely drop bigs who can't stretch the floor rarely go high in drafts nowadays.

OG's 4.2 stocks is wild for a wing player. That really stuck out for me.

The only comparison to OG I can remember off the top of my head is Andre Roberson who was probably just as good defensively, but a complete 0 on offense.

The thing about Kessler was he actually showed he could defend on the perimeter really well for a 7 footer, but he wasn't elite at it and he's white so he was thought to not have any perimeter defense at all. Poeltl was one of the best perimeter defending centres (maybe the best for a bit until Mobley?) his whole career, but was thought to be poor at it for a long time.

[Dalek]

Per 40 Blocks+Steals of the current all-defensive team players in their draft year:

JJJ: 6.6
Mobley: 4.3
OG: 4.2
Lopez: 3.5
Caruso: 3.4
White: 3.3
Jrue: 3.1
Bam: 2.9
Draymond: 2.9
Brooks: 2.4

Blocks+Steals per 40:

D Lively: 5.7
T Jackson-Davis: 4.3
J Walker: 3.3
T Hendricks: 3.1
A Black: 3.1
C Wallace: 3.0
Z Edey: 3.0
C Whitmore: 2.6
B Podziemski: 2.5
K Murray: 2.5
K Bufkin: 2.3
M Sasser: 2.3
C Jones: 2.2
B Miller: 2.2
T Smith: 2.2
G Dick: 2.1
M Lewis: 2.1
D Whitehead: 1.9
GG Jackson: 1.9
K George: 1.9
J Hawkins: 1.7
J Strawther: 1.7
J Wilson: 1.6
N Smith: 1.5
B Sensabaugh: 1.5
J Hood-Schifino: 1.3
J Howard: 1.3

A couple names to add of guys who I think are the elite non-big defenders with great per 40 blocks and steals:

Jaylen Clark: 3.7
Kevin McCullar: 3.6
Kobe Johnson: 3.6 - he is a very interesting player in a number of ways, but not sure if he declared or not.

[Psubs]

I was hoping for Walker Kessler so bad, even after I saw Jay Huff not make it. Someone will like havin Trayce Jackson-Davis; Indiana should draft him with #26 or #29. Dale Davis played half of his career with the Pacers.

Ron Artest was 3.8 stocks per 40. He was a SF like OG.

[Los_29]

Adding Centres/ rim protectors is a bit unfair due to inflated blocks. JJJ is/was a hybrid wing/big.

Walker Kessler had 8.8 stocks per 40 in the SEC, including an astounding 1.7 steals for a Centre... and was drafted 22nd for some reason instead of top 5... I guess because he's white.

With Kessler, I think there were questions surrounding his mobility and what kind of impact he could make offensively since he wasn't a shooter. Plus, purely drop bigs who can't stretch the floor rarely go high in drafts nowadays.

OG's 4.2 stocks is wild for a wing player. That really stuck out for me.

The only comparison to OG I can remember off the top of my head is Andre Roberson who was probably just as good defensively, but a complete 0 on offense.

The thing about Kessler was he actually showed he could defend on the perimeter really well for a 7 footer, but he wasn't elite at it and he's white so he was thought to not have any perimeter defense at all. Poeltl was one of the best perimeter defending centres (maybe the best for a bit until Mobley?) his whole career, but was thought to be poor at it for a long time.

Isn't it the opposite? Poeltl was not considered effective guarding out on the perimeter. He's not bad by any means but definitely not someone you want out there defending guards and wings.

Kessler struggled a lot defending out on the perimeter in college and it was evident in the NBA as well. He's just not comfortable out there. I remember the games against us, Fred and Gary had no problems beating him off the dribble and getting easy buckets. Kessler also offers very little offensively. He is a dominant rim protector though. You saw that when we played them in Utah. He altered so many shots and it changed the way we played in the paint. That kind of rim protection will always have value in this league.

[Yallbecrazy]

With Kessler, I think there were questions surrounding his mobility and what kind of impact he could make offensively since he wasn't a shooter. Plus, purely drop bigs who can't stretch the floor rarely go high in drafts nowadays.

OG's 4.2 stocks is wild for a wing player. That really stuck out for me.

The only comparison to OG I can remember off the top of my head is Andre Roberson who was probably just as good defensively, but a complete 0 on offense.

The thing about Kessler was he actually showed he could defend on the perimeter really well for a 7 footer, but he wasn't elite at it and he's white so he was thought to not have any perimeter defense at all. Poeltl was one of the best perimeter defending centres (maybe the best for a bit until Mobley?) his whole career, but was thought to be poor at it for a long time.

Isn't it the opposite? Poeltl was not considered effective guarding out on the perimeter. He's not bad by any means but definitely not someone you want out there defending guards and wings.

Kessler struggled a lot defending out on the perimeter in college and it was evident in the NBA as well. He's just not comfortable out there. I remember the games against us, Fred and Gary had no problems beating him off the dribble and getting easy buckets. Kessler also offers very little offensively. He is a dominant rim protector though. You saw that when we played them in Utah. He altered so many shots and it changed the way we played in the paint. That kind of rim protection will always have value in this league.

I don't think any 7 footers are good on the perimeter, but Poeltl is excellent for a centre and Kessler isn't terrible.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Per 40 Blocks+Steals of the current all-defensive team players in their draft year:

JJJ: 6.6
Mobley: 4.3
OG: 4.2
Lopez: 3.5
Caruso: 3.4
White: 3.3
Jrue: 3.1
Bam: 2.9
Draymond: 2.9
Brooks: 2.4

Blocks+Steals per 40:

D Lively: 5.7
T Jackson-Davis: 4.3
J Walker: 3.3
T Hendricks: 3.1
A Black: 3.1
C Wallace: 3.0
Z Edey: 3.0
C Whitmore: 2.6
B Podziemski: 2.5
K Murray: 2.5
K Bufkin: 2.3
M Sasser: 2.3
C Jones: 2.2
B Miller: 2.2
T Smith: 2.2
G Dick: 2.1
M Lewis: 2.1
D Whitehead: 1.9
GG Jackson: 1.9
K George: 1.9
J Hawkins: 1.7
J Strawther: 1.7
J Wilson: 1.6
N Smith: 1.5
B Sensabaugh: 1.5
J Hood-Schifino: 1.3
J Howard: 1.3

A couple names to add of guys who I think are the elite non-big defenders with great per 40 blocks and steals:

Jaylen Clark: 3.7
Kevin McCullar: 3.6
Kobe Johnson: 3.6 - he is a very interesting player in a number of ways, but not sure if he declared or not.

I mentioned this yesterday, D'Moi Hodge 4.3/40. Also 9.8 3PA/40.

[HumbleRen]

Emoni Bates has some of the worst people around him lol.

[Psubs]

The only comparison to OG I can remember off the top of my head is Andre Roberson who was probably just as good defensively, but a complete 0 on offense.

The thing about Kessler was he actually showed he could defend on the perimeter really well for a 7 footer, but he wasn't elite at it and he's white so he was thought to not have any perimeter defense at all. Poeltl was one of the best perimeter defending centres (maybe the best for a bit until Mobley?) his whole career, but was thought to be poor at it for a long time.

Isn't it the opposite? Poeltl was not considered effective guarding out on the perimeter. He's not bad by any means but definitely not someone you want out there defending guards and wings.

Kessler struggled a lot defending out on the perimeter in college and it was evident in the NBA as well. He's just not comfortable out there. I remember the games against us, Fred and Gary had no problems beating him off the dribble and getting easy buckets. Kessler also offers very little offensively. He is a dominant rim protector though. You saw that when we played them in Utah. He altered so many shots and it changed the way we played in the paint. That kind of rim protection will always have value in this league.

I don't think any 7 footers are good on the perimeter, but Poeltl is excellent for a centre and Kessler isn't terrible.

Durant!!!

[Grew]

Isn't it the opposite? Poeltl was not considered effective guarding out on the perimeter. He's not bad by any means but definitely not someone you want out there defending guards and wings.

Kessler struggled a lot defending out on the perimeter in college and it was evident in the NBA as well. He's just not comfortable out there. I remember the games against us, Fred and Gary had no problems beating him off the dribble and getting easy buckets. Kessler also offers very little offensively. He is a dominant rim protector though. You saw that when we played them in Utah. He altered so many shots and it changed the way we played in the paint. That kind of rim protection will always have value in this league.

I don't think any 7 footers are good on the perimeter, but Poeltl is excellent for a centre and Kessler isn't terrible.

Durant!!!

If KD is 7'0, Fred is 6'2

[gbball]

Isn't it the opposite? Poeltl was not considered effective guarding out on the perimeter. He's not bad by any means but definitely not someone you want out there defending guards and wings.

Kessler struggled a lot defending out on the perimeter in college and it was evident in the NBA as well. He's just not comfortable out there. I remember the games against us, Fred and Gary had no problems beating him off the dribble and getting easy buckets. Kessler also offers very little offensively. He is a dominant rim protector though. You saw that when we played them in Utah. He altered so many shots and it changed the way we played in the paint. That kind of rim protection will always have value in this league.

I don't think any 7 footers are good on the perimeter, but Poeltl is excellent for a centre and Kessler isn't terrible.

Durant!!!

What about Koloko? I thought that was his main advantage over Kessler.

[Los_29]

I don't think any 7 footers are good on the perimeter, but Poeltl is excellent for a centre and Kessler isn't terrible.

Durant!!!

What about Koloko? I thought that was his main advantage over Kessler.

Koloko is better on the perimeter. Unfortunately, that's the only thing he's better than Kessler at. Shooting as well but that's not saying much considering how bad Kessler is. Excited to see if Koloko can make some improvements in the offseason. I like his potential.

[S.W.A.N]

Durant!!!

What about Koloko? I thought that was his main advantage over Kessler.

Koloko is better on the perimeter. Unfortunately, that's the only thing he's better than Kessler at. Shooting as well but that's not saying much considering how bad Kessler is. Excited to see if Koloko can make some improvements in the offseason. I like his potential.

Koloko has a lot of potential.

His defense is already impactful, just needs to tighten up the offensive power game.

[Yallbecrazy]

What about Koloko? I thought that was his main advantage over Kessler.

Koloko is better on the perimeter. Unfortunately, that's the only thing he's better than Kessler at. Shooting as well but that's not saying much considering how bad Kessler is. Excited to see if Koloko can make some improvements in the offseason. I like his potential.

Koloko has a lot of potential.

His defense is already impactful, just needs to tighten up the offensive power game.

Good guards can bait him into fouls way too easily, but he can be really good if he learns how to defend without fouling.
Also, he needs to get stronger while maintaining his quickness.