2023 Draft Discussion Part 4

[DreamTeam09]

I became more of a Brice fan after seeing his body transformation. 6'6 230-235 is a little heavy but if he's in the 220-225 range that's better for him. Legit 3 level scorer, at 6'6 220 range he'll be able to get to the rim ideally.

I want cam Whitmore, so Brice is like the 2nd best thing, I'm game now.

Brice / Kobe / Hawkins are my 3 I'm locked into unless Grady Wallace or Hendricks fall. I think Bilal is the most Raptory player who'll be available tho and that's who we will pick

[BoyzNTheHood]

Based on Raptors drafting history I can assure you that we're not, thankfully.

Based on our draft history? You mean the one where we constantly select productive, defense-oriented 6’7” to 6’9” players with nice handles?

Which has gotten us no where, so taking one with potential superstar talent is a plausible switch up.

[dozo]

Read on Twitter

What's the scoop on Jean Montero? He looks like he could be solid back-up PG in the NBA.

[Yallbecrazy]

Based on our draft history? You mean the one where we constantly select productive, defense-oriented 6’7” to 6’9” players with nice handles?

Which has gotten us no where, so taking one with potential superstar talent is a plausible switch up.

Hmmm, drafting productive players doesn't always work, so your logic is to try and draft the most unproductive one?

I wouldn't be eager to sign GG as a UDFA.

[BoyzNTheHood]

Which has gotten us no where, so taking one with potential superstar talent is a plausible switch up.

Hmmm, drafting productive players doesn't always work, so your logic is to try and draft an unproductive one?

I wouldn't be eager to sign GG as a UDFA.

It’s not my logic to draft an unproductive player, but I guess twisting what I clearly typed is your only way to make a point. It’s written in the post you quoted, but maybe if I repeat it you’ll understand. My logic is NOT to draft an unproductive player, my logic IF I were to take GG would be because of the massive potential he has to improve. NOT because of what he did at South Carolina. NO ONE is drafting him based on his body of work at South Carolina. See the difference? It’s just that easy!

[ATLTimekeeper]

Based on our draft history? You mean the one where we constantly select productive, defense-oriented 6’7” to 6’9” players with nice handles?

Which has gotten us no where, so taking one with potential superstar talent is a plausible switch up.

They've been one of the best drafting teams in the league, what are you talking about? Find me an NBA superstar that had a negative BPM in the NCAA.

Actually find me a superstar from the NCAA that the Raptors passed on since Masai took over. Start there.

[raincityraptors]

I think at this point I am set at Jordan Hawkins at 13. I look at a number of factors and the main one being that he gives Toronto a reliable offensive weapon and a guy at 13 that I think will be an NBA starter.

Hawkins is not just a shooter, but a truly elite scorer. His movement, speed and quick/high release kills in the modern NBA. Teams will have to close out hard on him. That previous grifter video about D1 players who draw fouls had Hawkins in there and I dug into his fouls and 23 of his fouls drawn were on three pointers. That is a huge number of fouls that could be four point play conversions.

What is exciting is he gives Toronto a pathway to play differently, moving away from ISO ball to a more eye pleasing movement style based on misdirection and smarts screens from Poeltl and Scottie and their deft passing touch from the perimeter or high post. Think of Scottie as a more diverse Draymond Green on offense and Poeltl like Kevon Looney with Hawkins operating as the Steph Curry-like threat.

While Hawkins is 6'5 and skinny he still grabs about 4 boards even with a center platoon in Klingan and Sanogo inhaling everything around him. He also competes on defense and has good wingspan. I think he will rate out at least as neutral.

Out of all the NCAA teams this year, I felt like UConn had players that equated a lot to what Toronto has - Klingan / Poeltl defensive anchor; Sanogo / Achuiwa energy big; Andre Jackson / Scottie Barnes transition threat and defender. Toronto was a .500 team because their offense tanked and they didn't have a go to weapon like UConn had in Hawkins.

I like Hawkins as well - natural replacement and potential upgrade for GTJ should he leave. I like guys who can show up on the brightest of stages, and this kid has NCAA championship under his belt. Honestly there are like 5-6 players projected in the teens that I will be fine with the Raptors picking - Hawkins, Dick, Bufkin, Bilal, and Cissko (probably missing a few more).

For me it is Hawkins, Dick, and Jones (guys that I think will have long careers and have starter potential on playoff teams). After that is gets into murky territory where they may gamble on a pure upside guy (like the guys you mentioned). Maybe a Cason Wallace or Anthony Black falls to 13 and that would also be strong considerations because they fill a big need and have great upside.

When I first started digging into this draft, Hawkins jumped out at me too and he was my early choice. He creates space for everyone around him with his gravity and movement shooting and as he fills in to his body, shows enough effort on defense to stick in a playoff rotation. He'll get 20 minutes off the bench as a rookie.

The upside of Kobe Bufkin and the fact that at 19 the kid really doesn't have any holes in his game, means he could get 20 minutes a game in year 1 as a backup guard too. He has the potential to grow into both a movement shooter and a great secondary creator.

The potential to be both is what swung me to Bufkin, but I agree that Hawkins is more of a sure thing IF he shows enough strength to guard the men he'll face in the NBA.

[Psubs]

Read on Twitter

What's the scoop on Jean Montero? He looks like he could be solid back-up PG in the NBA.

At best he's Dennis Schroder. He showed poorly in summer league with the Knicks. He just needs to keep getting stronger.

Right now is he better than say an Isaiah Wong or Souley Buom who you might be able to invite to camp too?

[Psubs]

I became more of a Brice fan after seeing his body transformation. 6'6 230-235 is a little heavy but if he's in the 220-225 range that's better for him. Legit 3 level scorer, at 6'6 220 range he'll be able to get to the rim ideally.

I want cam Whitmore, so Brice is like the 2nd best thing, I'm game now.

Brice / Kobe / Hawkins are my 3 I'm locked into unless Grady Wallace or Hendricks fall. I think Bilal is the most Raptory player who'll be available tho and that's who we will pick

If he tests well, he should be drafted 7-12.

[Yallbecrazy]

Which has gotten us no where, so taking one with potential superstar talent is a plausible switch up.

Hmmm, drafting productive players doesn't always work, so your logic is to try and draft an unproductive one?

I wouldn't be eager to sign GG as a UDFA.

It’s not my logic to draft an unproductive player, but I guess twisting what I clearly typed is your only way to make a point. It’s written in the post you quoted, but maybe if I repeat it you’ll understand. My logic is NOT to draft an unproductive player, my logic IF I were to take GG would be because of the massive potential he has to improve. NOT because of what he did at South Carolina. NO ONE is drafting him based on his body of work at South Carolina. See the difference? It’s just that easy!

"Hey Antoine, we have a choice between this 2020 Bordeaux wine which comes highly regarded from an award winning vineyard and could get a lot better if we put it in the cellar for a while or these grapes I found on the side of the road in the region."

"Better go with the grapes Hugo, once you clean off the dirt, we could find a good winemaker and the potential is limitless"

[Psubs]

I became more of a Brice fan after seeing his body transformation. 6'6 230-235 is a little heavy but if he's in the 220-225 range that's better for him. Legit 3 level scorer, at 6'6 220 range he'll be able to get to the rim ideally.

I want cam Whitmore, so Brice is like the 2nd best thing, I'm game now.

Brice / Kobe / Hawkins are my 3 I'm locked into unless Grady Wallace or Hendricks fall. I think Bilal is the most Raptory player who'll be available tho and that's who we will pick

If he tests well, he should be drafted 7-12.

[grant101]

Read on Twitter

?s=20

aye man, if hes in shape .. he's my pick lol.

He's got that James Harden frame, and the shot (especially that turnaround) is money. If getting into better shape unlocks additional energy and athleticism (especially on D), and our FO buys his attitude and work ethic, he's a no-brainer.

It's not just his defense though, it's his passing that was terrible too. I get that he's the most gifted scorer in this class, but he seems like the one dimensional scorer that most fan bases hate.

Yeah, the lack of passing is a legit knock. That said, I've seen enough flashes there to think it might come. Demar wasn't much of a passer out of college either (very similar numbers actually). Masai's been a pretty good at identifying players that work and improve. So if Brice is the pick, I'm going to assume that the FO is convinced he can round out his game, and I'd support the pick. Not my top choice, but I see the appeal and if he changes a couple changeable things, Brice has got scary potential.

[Yallbecrazy]

He's got that James Harden frame, and the shot (especially that turnaround) is money. If getting into better shape unlocks additional energy and athleticism (especially on D), and our FO buys his attitude and work ethic, he's a no-brainer.

It's not just his defense though, it's his passing that was terrible too. I get that he's the most gifted scorer in this class, but he seems like the one dimensional scorer that most fan bases hate.

Yeah, the lack of passing is a legit knock. That said, I've seen enough flashes there to think it might come. Demar wasn't much of a passer out of college either (very similar numbers actually). Masai's been a pretty good at identifying players that work and improve. So if Brice is the pick, I'm going to assume that the FO is convinced he can round out his game, and I'd support the pick. Not my top choice, but I see the appeal and if he changes a couple changeable things, Brice has got scary potential.

Demar's passing improvement is such an incredible outlier and didn't happen until later in his career. I can't really think of anyone else that went from terrible passer in college to really good in the NBA. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's so unlikely that it shouldn't be considered as a potential outcome when evaluating him.

[BoyzNTheHood]

Which has gotten us no where, so taking one with potential superstar talent is a plausible switch up.

They've been one of the best drafting teams in the league, what are you talking about? Find me an NBA superstar that had a negative BPM in the NCAA.

Actually find me a superstar from the NCAA that the Raptors passed on since Masai took over. Start there.

I’m not going to be the one to hate on Masai, but we can discuss previous draft failures if you want. And we’re not going to pigeonhole ourselves to NCAA prospects alone because that fits your false narratives. We’re going to discuss the body of work.

In 2011 the Nuggets passed on Jimmy Butler (2x) for Kenneth Faried and Jordan Hamilton. They also passed on Isaiah Thomas for Chu Maduabum

In 2012 Denver passes on Khris Middleton and Will Barton for Quincy Miller.

Masai passed on Capela (1x), Grant (2x), Jokic (2x), Dinwiddie (2x) in 2014 to pick Bruno and Deandre Daniels

He took a guy with Giannis style potential who turned into a bust just like GG Jackson could be. Bruno just wasn’t in the NCAA so he doesn’t fit your narrative.

In 2020 he passed on Bane to pick Flynn

2021 is still TBD but there are those who would argue for Giddey, Wagner, and Sengun’s long term potential over Scottie

In 2022 we traded down from 20 for Thad Young costing us the likes of Kessler for Koloko.

The other years we have been good and have had low picks. Therefore, no good prospects were passed on.

[BoyzNTheHood]

Hmmm, drafting productive players doesn't always work, so your logic is to try and draft an unproductive one?

I wouldn't be eager to sign GG as a UDFA.

It’s not my logic to draft an unproductive player, but I guess twisting what I clearly typed is your only way to make a point. It’s written in the post you quoted, but maybe if I repeat it you’ll understand. My logic is NOT to draft an unproductive player, my logic IF I were to take GG would be because of the massive potential he has to improve. NOT because of what he did at South Carolina. NO ONE is drafting him based on his body of work at South Carolina. See the difference? It’s just that easy!

"Hey Antoine, we have a choice between this 2020 Bordeaux wine which comes highly regarded from an award winning vineyard and could get a lot better if we put it in the cellar for a while or these grapes I found on the side of the road in the region."

"Better go with the grapes Hugo, once you clean off the dirt, we could find a good winemaker and the potential is limitless"

Who’s this Bordeaux wine you speak of? Did we win the lottery?

[Dalek]

Read on Twitter

What's the scoop on Jean Montero? He looks like he could be solid back-up PG in the NBA.

At best he's Dennis Schroder. He showed poorly in summer league with the Knicks. He just needs to keep getting stronger.

Right now is he better than say an Isaiah Wong or Souley Buom who you might be able to invite to camp too?

Jean is outperforming most draft and stash guys and is a 19 year-old and a free to be signed by any team without a pick. He is on the small side at 6'3 and small wingspan and about 175 lbs, so he won't be a a starter but he is a very good back-up.

I think like you he is like a lot of solid back-ups - Schroeder or a Patty Mills or Ish Smith or Monte Morris. I'd put him ahead of Wong and Buom because of his age and production in Spain.

Montero is also a pretty good defender over there, so he might be an on-ball pest in the NBA. He is also a PG who can run an offense, not like the other combos who are really just small SGs. This draft lacks true PGs, and at his age he might be a first rounder if he was in this draft (only player similar this draft is Judah Mintz).

[OakleyDokely]

GG Jackson doesn't really fit the Raps profile. He's not a good defender and he doesn't project into one. He was inefficient offensively and doesn't rate very well from an analytics standpoint. There's also questions about his character and a lack of maturity, which again is something the Raps steer clear from. I'd be shocked if he was the pick, he'd have to really blow them away in workouts / interviews.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I’m not going to be the one to hate on Masai, but we can discuss previous draft failures if you want. And we’re not going to pigeonhole ourselves to NCAA prospects alone because that fits your false narratives. We’re going to discuss the body of work.

In 2011 the Nuggets passed on Jimmy Butler (2x) for Kenneth Faried and Jordan Hamilton. They also passed on Isaiah Thomas for Chu Maduabum

In 2012 Denver passes on Khris Middleton and Will Barton for Quincy Miller.

Masai passed on Capela (1x), Grant (2x), Jokic (2x), Dinwiddie (2x) in 2014 to pick Bruno and Deandre Daniels

He took a guy with Giannis style potential who turned into a bust just like GG Jackson could be. Bruno just wasn’t in the NCAA so he doesn’t fit your narrative.

In 2020 he passed on Bane to pick Flynn

2021 is still TBD but there are those who would argue for Giddey, Wagner, and Sengun’s long term potential over Scottie

In 2022 we traded down from 20 for Thad Young costing us the likes of Kessler for Koloko.

The other years we have been good and have had low picks. Therefore, no good prospects were passed on.

Masai in Denver is not Masai in Toronto. Dan Tolzman was their video scout in Denver, and he was promoted to running their draft in Toronto. First draft was a total bust as Leweike demanded Masai make a splash leading to Bruno. Fully concede that he missed Jokic. After that they added a Gleague team and implemented IBM Watson and have had one of the strongest records out of anyone in the league.

Bane isn't a superstar and he won't be a superstar. Giddey, Wagner and Sengun do not look like superstars. Not sure why they had long-term potential that Scottie didn't.

FOH with that Kessler bull****. You're not serious here, just emotional. He didn't pass on Kessler. He traded that pick months prior to knowing where he would pick. And we don't know if Kessler will be a superstar.

Now let's figure out why you think GG Jackson has superstar potential? Is it because he was a top ranked high school player? Because we know for a fact that top high school rankings very rarely are accurate in terms of predicting NBA stars let along NBA superstars.

[Yallbecrazy]

I’m not going to be the one to hate on Masai, but we can discuss previous draft failures if you want. And we’re not going to pigeonhole ourselves to NCAA prospects alone because that fits your false narratives. We’re going to discuss the body of work.

In 2011 the Nuggets passed on Jimmy Butler (2x) for Kenneth Faried and Jordan Hamilton. They also passed on Isaiah Thomas for Chu Maduabum

In 2012 Denver passes on Khris Middleton and Will Barton for Quincy Miller.

Masai passed on Capela (1x), Grant (2x), Jokic (2x), Dinwiddie (2x) in 2014 to pick Bruno and Deandre Daniels

He took a guy with Giannis style potential who turned into a bust just like GG Jackson could be. Bruno just wasn’t in the NCAA so he doesn’t fit your narrative.

In 2020 he passed on Bane to pick Flynn

2021 is still TBD but there are those who would argue for Giddey, Wagner, and Sengun’s long term potential over Scottie

In 2022 we traded down from 20 for Thad Young costing us the likes of Kessler for Koloko.

The other years we have been good and have had low picks. Therefore, no good prospects were passed on.

Masai in Denver is not Masai in Toronto. Dan Tolzman was their video scout in Denver, and he was promoted to running their draft in Toronto. First draft was a total bust as Leweike demanded Masai make a splash leading to Bruno. Fully concede that he missed Jokic. After that they added a Gleague team and implemented IBM Watson and have had one of the strongest records out of anyone in the league.

Bane isn't a superstar and he won't be a superstar. Giddey, Wagner and Sengun do not look like superstars. Not sure why they had long-term potential that Scottie didn't.

FOH with that Kessler bull****. You're not serious here, just emotional. He didn't pass on Kessler. He traded that pick months prior to knowing where he would pick. And we don't know if Kessler will be a superstar.

Now let's figure out why you think GG Jackson has superstar potential? Is it because he was a top ranked high school player? Because we know for a fact that top high school rankings very rarely are accurate in terms of predicting NBA stars let along NBA superstars.

Should we hope Houston wins the lottery so Sengun or Jabari becomes available via trade?

Not crazy about Jabari, but if he could be had for really cheap then why not?

[grant101]

It's not just his defense though, it's his passing that was terrible too. I get that he's the most gifted scorer in this class, but he seems like the one dimensional scorer that most fan bases hate.

Yeah, the lack of passing is a legit knock. That said, I've seen enough flashes there to think it might come. Demar wasn't much of a passer out of college either (very similar numbers actually). Masai's been a pretty good at identifying players that work and improve. So if Brice is the pick, I'm going to assume that the FO is convinced he can round out his game, and I'd support the pick. Not my top choice, but I see the appeal and if he changes a couple changeable things, Brice has got scary potential.

Demar's passing improvement is such an incredible outlier and didn't happen until later in his career. I can't really think of anyone else that went from terrible passer in college to really good in the NBA. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's so unlikely that it shouldn't be considered as a potential outcome when evaluating him.

Paul Pierce went through a similar evolution and Wiggins has turned into a decent passer, but I get your point. That's why I stressed the importance of the interview/workout with Brice. I've seen enough flashes to suggest that the evolution might come (some impressive reads off of drives), but of course it might not (then you're left with a great play finisher ala Norm Powell or GTJ, which is not the worst outcome imaginable)